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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2020 21:18:07 GMT -5
You seem to be using the word 'existent' in a whole different definition than I do. Could you please define what existent means to you? Your definition of the word? If you are a Christian is your God existent or non existent? Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. you've mixed up so many denominations into your belief system that you no longer talking coherently now your sounding like a new ager....and thats not why they called them atheist they were called atheist cause they believed in only one God... and no, early christians died saying there was only one God that existed....
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Post by chuck on Apr 15, 2020 0:12:57 GMT -5
Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. you've mixed up so many denominations into your belief system that you no longer talking coherently now your sounding like a new ager....and thats not why they called them atheist they were called atheist cause they believed in only one God... and no, early christians died saying there was only one God that existed.... wally my friend, that is the answer from someone heavily indoctrinated. As soon as you suggest one doctrine overides, is less important, is less correct, is more correct ect ect than others, you are a indoctrinated religous zealot. We are right, we know the only way to god. Become like us!. As Paul described so well, Dung!. Typical 2x2 answer, critical think non existent. Zero research into history and culture. Thats exactly what these Christians were saying. God does not exist!, not in a idol, not in a temple, not in a ritual, but is in YOU!. A non existent God!. That threatened the romans just like it threatens you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 0:17:50 GMT -5
you've mixed up so many denominations into your belief system that you no longer talking coherently now your sounding like a new ager....and thats not why they called them atheist they were called atheist cause they believed in only one God... and no, early christians died saying there was only one God that existed.... wally my friend, that is the answer from someone heavily indoctrinated. As soon as you suggest one doctrine overides, is less important, is less correct, is more correct ect ect than others, you are a indoctrinated religous zealot. We are right, we know the only way to god. Become like us!. As Paul described so well, Dung!. Typical 2x2 answer, critical think non existent. Zero research into history and culture. Thats exactly what these Christians were saying. God does not exist!, not in a idol, not in a temple, not in a ritual, but is in YOU!. A non existent God!. That threatened the romans just like it threatens you. your talking babble again, but that wont work on me or anyone else for that matter....try again...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2020 3:33:39 GMT -5
What do you mean by 1 "insistent" God,? He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?” declares the Lord. - Jeremiah 22:16 My new favorite verse. God insists how we live. Might not be the best explanation of God but the best I can do. This God does not "exist". Well then I agree.
Certainly, -I don't see any god "existing" that does that; "defended the cause of the poor and needy."
I am sorry to say that I also find very few PEOPLE "existing" who has "defended the cause of the poor and needy." There are some that I have known, -but honestly, -there just are not many people who act on that belief.
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2020 12:39:06 GMT -5
You seem to be using the word 'existent' in a whole different definition than I do. Could you please define what existent means to you? Your definition of the word? If you are a Christian is your God existent or non existent? Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. Interesting. You seem to have taken a prominent New Age definition of 'God' and applied it to the Christian God. But I have no idea how you can do that AND believe what the bible says.
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Post by Brick on Apr 15, 2020 17:41:41 GMT -5
I wonder how it works. Do you call a number and then type in code? Or do you speak with someone, give them your code and then they approve your call. I notice a denominational church online using a similar system. Just wondering. We are using Zoom. Works pretty well. Some are texting their testimonies/thoughts to us. I'm not a fan of lengthy texts, so I don't participate in that.
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Post by chuck on Apr 15, 2020 18:55:38 GMT -5
Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. Interesting. You seem to have taken a prominent New Age definition of 'God' and applied it to the Christian God. But I have no idea how you can do that AND believe what the bible says. Easy dont read the bible statically.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2020 19:42:52 GMT -5
You seem to be using the word 'existent' in a whole different definition than I do. Could you please define what existent means to you? Your definition of the word? If you are a Christian is your God existent or non existent? Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. Chuck,
I wonder where you studied the history of Christianity .
Actually the Romans didn't care a whit as to what the Christians believed.
The problem came about because a clash with the state.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire
<excerpt>
"The exclusive sovereignty of Christ clashed with Caesar's claims to his own exclusive sovereignty."
The Roman empire practiced religious Syncretism and did not demand loyalty to one god, but they did demand preeminent loyalty to the state, and this was expected to be demonstrated through the practices of the state religion with numerous feast and festival days throughout the year.
The nature of Christian monotheism prevented Christians from participating in anything involving 'other gods'.
Christians did not participate in feast days or processionals or offer sacrifices or light incense to the gods; this produced hostility.
They refused to offer incense to the Roman emperor, and in the minds of the people, the "emperor, when viewed as a god, was ... the embodiment of the Roman empire", so Christians were seen as disloyal to both.
In Rome, "religion could be tolerated only as long as it contributed to the stability of the state" which would "brook no rival for the allegiance of its subjects. The state was the highest good in a union of state and religion."
In Christian monotheism the state was not the highest good.
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Post by iam on Apr 15, 2020 22:46:28 GMT -5
I have heard there are gospel meetings over the phone. Does anyone listen to them?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 22:50:36 GMT -5
I have heard there are gospel meetings over the phone. Does anyone listen to them? yes, i do, they are in our area. sometimes its hard to hear but i generally get the gist of it. also they are a little shorter cause there is no singing....both sundays and wednesdays...
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Post by chuck on Apr 15, 2020 22:51:29 GMT -5
Something thats outside of you that you and that you can manipulate. 2x2's god for example. In heaven some place else. Can manipulate him with prayer or performance. Is the meetings ect. (Holy/Idols) Is the rituals, professing ect. (for the idols) All existent things that add up to their god. Early Christians died suggesting God does not exist. Romans charged them with atheism because all gods existed in some form or other, wooden idols, rituals, ect. They had to stamp this out as it rendered their gods, temples ect useless. Somehow along the way Christianity has insisted on a existent god. A pagan god. The Christian God is true. But does not exist like a pagan God. It's a spirit/force intwined within you and me and the universe and holding us together. If I hurt you I hurt me. Love your neighbors as yourself, Love your enemies as yourself. Pray for them that despitfully use you. God Insists. Chuck,
I wonder where you studied the history of Christianity .
Actually the Romans didn't care a whit as to what the Christians believed.
The problem came about because a clash with the state.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire
<excerpt>
"The exclusive sovereignty of Christ clashed with Caesar's claims to his own exclusive sovereignty."
The Roman empire practiced religious Syncretism and did not demand loyalty to one god, but they did demand preeminent loyalty to the state, and this was expected to be demonstrated through the practices of the state religion with numerous feast and festival days throughout the year.
The nature of Christian monotheism prevented Christians from participating in anything involving 'other gods'.
Christians did not participate in feast days or processionals or offer sacrifices or light incense to the gods; this produced hostility.
They refused to offer incense to the Roman emperor, and in the minds of the people, the "emperor, when viewed as a god, was ... the embodiment of the Roman empire", so Christians were seen as disloyal to both.
In Rome, "religion could be tolerated only as long as it contributed to the stability of the state" which would "brook no rival for the allegiance of its subjects. The state was the highest good in a union of state and religion."
In Christian monotheism the state was not the highest good.
Acutually they did because it threatened the econimic framework that the temple system brought. Letters of Pliny the Younger and the Emperor Trajan Translated by William Whiston These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries. In the year 112, Pliny the Younger was faced with a dilemma. He was the governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey) when a number of Christians were brought into his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to his friend the Emperor for advice. The Emperor replies that he did the right thing in excecuting them, but advises him not to seek out Christians for prosecution. PLINY'S EPISTLE TO TRAJAN ABOUT 112 CE Sir, It is my constant method to apply myself to you for the resolution of all my doubts; for who can better govern my dilatory way of proceeding or instruct my ignorance? I have never been present at the examination of the Christians [by others], on which account I am unacquainted with what uses to be inquired into, and what, and how far they used to be punished; nor are my doubts small, whether there be not a distinction to be made between the ages [of the accused]? and whether tender youth ought to have the same punishment with strong men? Whether there be not room for pardon upon repentance?" or whether it may not be an advantage to one that had been a Christian, that he has forsaken Christianity? Whether the bare name, without any crimes besides, or the crimes adhering to that name, be to be punished? In the meantime, I have taken this course about those who have been brought before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians or not? If they confessed that they were Christians, I asked them again, and a third time, intermixing threatenings with the questions. If they persevered in their confession, I ordered them to be executed; for I did not doubt but, let their confession be of any sort whatsoever, this positiveness and inflexible obstinacy deserved to be punished. There have been some of this mad sect whom I took notice of in particular as Roman citizens, that they might be sent to that city. After some time, as is usual in such examinations, the crime spread itself and many more cases came before me. A libel was sent to me, though without an author, containing many names [of persons accused]. These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been. They called upon the gods, and supplicated to your image, which I caused to be brought to me for that purpose, with frankincense and wine; they also cursed Christ; none of which things, it is said, can any of those that are ready Christians be compelled to do; so I thought fit to let them go. Others of them that were named in the libel, said they were Christians, but presently denied it again; that indeed they had been Christians, but had ceased to be so, some three years, some many more; and one there was that said he had not been so these twenty years. All these worshipped your image, and the images of our gods; these also cursed Christ. However, they assured me that the main of their fault, or of their mistake was this:-That they were wont, on a stated day, to meet together before it was light, and to sing a hymn to Christ, as to a god, alternately; and to oblige themselves by a sacrament [or oath], not to do anything that was ill: but that they would commit no theft, or pilfering, or adultery; that they would not break their promises, or deny what was deposited with them, when it was required back again; after which it was their custom to depart, and to meet again at a common but innocent meal, which they had left off upon that edict which I published at your command, and wherein I had forbidden any such conventicles. These examinations made me think it necessary to inquire by torments what the truth was; which I did of two servant maids, who were called Deaconesses: but still I discovered no more than that they were addicted to a bad and to an extravagant superstition. Hereupon I have put off any further examinations, and have recourse to you, for the affair seems to be well worth consultation, especially on account of the number of those that are in danger; for there are many of every age, of every rank, and of both sexes, who are now and hereafter likely to be called to account, and to be in danger; for this superstition is spread like a contagion, not only into cities and towns, but into country villages also, which yet there is reason to hope may be stopped and corrected. To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted. TRAJAN'S EPISTLE TO PLINY My Pliny, You have taken the method which you ought in examining the causes of those that had been accused as Christians, for indeed no certain and general form of judging can be ordained in this case. These people are not to be sought for; but if they be accused and convicted, they are to be punished; but with this caution, that he who denies himself to be a Christian, and makes it plain that he is not so by supplicating to our gods, although he had been so formerly, may be allowed pardon, upon his repentance. As for libels sent without an author, they ought to have no place in any accusation whatsoever, for that would be a thing of very ill example, and not agreeable to my reign.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 16, 2020 1:07:43 GMT -5
Chuck,
I wonder where you studied the history of Christianity .
Actually the Romans didn't care a whit as to what the Christians believed.
The problem came about because a clash with the state.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire
<excerpt>
"The exclusive sovereignty of Christ clashed with Caesar's claims to his own exclusive sovereignty."
The Roman empire practiced religious Syncretism and did not demand loyalty to one god, but they did demand preeminent loyalty to the state, and this was expected to be demonstrated through the practices of the state religion with numerous feast and festival days throughout the year.
The nature of Christian monotheism prevented Christians from participating in anything involving 'other gods'. Christians did not participate in feast days or processionals or offer sacrifices or light incense to the gods; this produced hostility.
They refused to offer incense to the Roman emperor, and in the minds of the people, the "emperor, when viewed as a god, was ... the embodiment of the Roman empire", so Christians were seen as disloyal to both.
In Rome, "religion could be tolerated only as long as it contributed to the stability of the state" which would "brook no rival for the allegiance of its subjects. The state was the highest good in a union of state and religion."
In Christian monotheism the state was not the highest good.
Acutually they did because it threatened the econimic framework that the temple system brought. Letters of Pliny the Younger and the Emperor Trajan ranslated by William Whiston These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries. In the year 112, Pliny the Younger was faced with a dilemma. He was the governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey) when a number of Christians were brought into his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to his friend the Emperor for advice. The Emperor replies that he did the right thing in excecuting them, but advises him not to seek out Christians for prosecution. PLINY'S EPISTLE TO TRAJAN ABOUT 112 CE Sir, It is my constant method to apply myself to you for the resolution of all my doubts; for who can better govern my dilatory way of proceeding or instruct my ignorance? I have never been present at the examination of the Christians [by others], on which account I am unacquainted with what uses to be inquired into, and what, and how far they used to be punished; nor are my doubts small, whether there be not a distinction to be made between the ages [of the accused]? and whether tender youth ought to have the same punishment with strong men? Whether there be not room for pardon upon repentance?" or whether it may not be an advantage to one that had been a Christian, that he has forsaken Christianity? Whether the bare name, without any crimes besides, or the crimes adhering to that name, be to be punished? In the meantime, I have taken this course about those who have been brought before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians or not? If they confessed that they were Christians, I asked them again, and a third time, intermixing threatenings with the questions. If they persevered in their confession, I ordered them to be executed; for I did not doubt but, let their confession be of any sort whatsoever, this positiveness and inflexible obstinacy deserved to be punished. There have been some of this mad sect whom I took notice of in particular as Roman citizens, that they might be sent to that city. After some time, as is usual in such examinations, the crime spread itself and many more cases came before me. A libel was sent to me, though without an author, containing many names [of persons accused]. These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been. They called upon the gods, and supplicated to your image, which I caused to be brought to me for that purpose, with frankincense and wine; they also cursed Christ; none of which things, it is said, can any of those that are ready Christians be compelled to do; so I thought fit to let them go. Others of them that were named in the libel, said they were Christians, but presently denied it again; that indeed they had been Christians, but had ceased to be so, some three years, some many more; and one there was that said he had not been so these twenty years. All these worshipped your image, and the images of our gods; these also cursed Christ. However, they assured me that the main of their fault, or of their mistake was this:-That they were wont, on a stated day, to meet together before it was light, and to sing a hymn to Christ, as to a god, alternately; and to oblige themselves by a sacrament [or oath], not to do anything that was ill: but that they would commit no theft, or pilfering, or adultery; that they would not break their promises, or deny what was deposited with them, when it was required back again; after which it was their custom to depart, and to meet again at a common but innocent meal, which they had left off upon that edict which I published at your command, and wherein I had forbidden any such conventicles. These examinations made me think it necessary to inquire by torments what the truth was; which I did of two servant maids, who were called Deaconesses: but still I discovered no more than that they were addicted to a bad and to an extravagant superstition. Hereupon I have put off any further examinations, and have recourse to you, for the affair seems to be well worth consultation, especially on account of the number of those that are in danger; for there are many of every age, of every rank, and of both sexes, who are now and hereafter likely to be called to account, and to be in danger; for this superstition is spread like a contagion, not only into cities and towns, but into country villages also, which yet there is reason to hope may be stopped and corrected. To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted.
TRAJAN'S EPISTLE TO PLINY My Pliny, You have taken the method which you ought in examining the causes of those that had been accused as Christians, for indeed no certain and general form of judging can be ordained in this case. These people are not to be sought for; but if they be accused and convicted, they are to be punished; but with this caution, that he who denies himself to be a Christian, and makes it plain that he is not so by supplicating to our gods, although he had been so formerly, may be allowed pardon, upon his repentance. As for libels sent without an author, they ought to have no place in any accusation whatsoever, for that would be a thing of very ill example, and not agreeable to my reign. Is this the part that you believe is relevant ?
"To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted."
Yes, I was aware of that correspondence between TRAJAN & PLINY and I can understand that could be a part of the reason, but the impact on the Roman society was quite a bit more than just the economic factor surely.
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 3:42:41 GMT -5
Acutually they did because it threatened the econimic framework that the temple system brought. Letters of Pliny the Younger and the Emperor Trajan ranslated by William Whiston These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries. In the year 112, Pliny the Younger was faced with a dilemma. He was the governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey) when a number of Christians were brought into his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to his friend the Emperor for advice. The Emperor replies that he did the right thing in excecuting them, but advises him not to seek out Christians for prosecution. PLINY'S EPISTLE TO TRAJAN ABOUT 112 CE Sir, It is my constant method to apply myself to you for the resolution of all my doubts; for who can better govern my dilatory way of proceeding or instruct my ignorance? I have never been present at the examination of the Christians [by others], on which account I am unacquainted with what uses to be inquired into, and what, and how far they used to be punished; nor are my doubts small, whether there be not a distinction to be made between the ages [of the accused]? and whether tender youth ought to have the same punishment with strong men? Whether there be not room for pardon upon repentance?" or whether it may not be an advantage to one that had been a Christian, that he has forsaken Christianity? Whether the bare name, without any crimes besides, or the crimes adhering to that name, be to be punished? In the meantime, I have taken this course about those who have been brought before me as Christians. I asked them whether they were Christians or not? If they confessed that they were Christians, I asked them again, and a third time, intermixing threatenings with the questions. If they persevered in their confession, I ordered them to be executed; for I did not doubt but, let their confession be of any sort whatsoever, this positiveness and inflexible obstinacy deserved to be punished. There have been some of this mad sect whom I took notice of in particular as Roman citizens, that they might be sent to that city. After some time, as is usual in such examinations, the crime spread itself and many more cases came before me. A libel was sent to me, though without an author, containing many names [of persons accused]. These denied that they were Christians now, or ever had been. They called upon the gods, and supplicated to your image, which I caused to be brought to me for that purpose, with frankincense and wine; they also cursed Christ; none of which things, it is said, can any of those that are ready Christians be compelled to do; so I thought fit to let them go. Others of them that were named in the libel, said they were Christians, but presently denied it again; that indeed they had been Christians, but had ceased to be so, some three years, some many more; and one there was that said he had not been so these twenty years. All these worshipped your image, and the images of our gods; these also cursed Christ. However, they assured me that the main of their fault, or of their mistake was this:-That they were wont, on a stated day, to meet together before it was light, and to sing a hymn to Christ, as to a god, alternately; and to oblige themselves by a sacrament [or oath], not to do anything that was ill: but that they would commit no theft, or pilfering, or adultery; that they would not break their promises, or deny what was deposited with them, when it was required back again; after which it was their custom to depart, and to meet again at a common but innocent meal, which they had left off upon that edict which I published at your command, and wherein I had forbidden any such conventicles. These examinations made me think it necessary to inquire by torments what the truth was; which I did of two servant maids, who were called Deaconesses: but still I discovered no more than that they were addicted to a bad and to an extravagant superstition. Hereupon I have put off any further examinations, and have recourse to you, for the affair seems to be well worth consultation, especially on account of the number of those that are in danger; for there are many of every age, of every rank, and of both sexes, who are now and hereafter likely to be called to account, and to be in danger; for this superstition is spread like a contagion, not only into cities and towns, but into country villages also, which yet there is reason to hope may be stopped and corrected. To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted.
TRAJAN'S EPISTLE TO PLINY My Pliny, You have taken the method which you ought in examining the causes of those that had been accused as Christians, for indeed no certain and general form of judging can be ordained in this case. These people are not to be sought for; but if they be accused and convicted, they are to be punished; but with this caution, that he who denies himself to be a Christian, and makes it plain that he is not so by supplicating to our gods, although he had been so formerly, may be allowed pardon, upon his repentance. As for libels sent without an author, they ought to have no place in any accusation whatsoever, for that would be a thing of very ill example, and not agreeable to my reign. Is this the part that you believe is relevant ?
"To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted."
Yes, I was aware of that correspondence between TRAJAN & PLINY and I can understand that could be a part of the reason, but the impact on the Roman society was quite a bit more than just the economic factor surely.
The whole thing not just one part. Yes Im sure there were other reasons but to stop the spread of this non existent God was obviously quite important, if they were just harmless why kill them? because their non "existent" God could quite easily collapse the economy that their gods and temple frame work fed. Back to my original point. Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods. God insists. God is true. But does not "exist". God is in you!. You are the temple, this threatens many Christians who believe in a existent god just like it threatened the romans. It threatens to take something away. Generally it comes down to power or money. For the 2x2's its more about power. They will never admit it but not being able to manipulate people and their god, takes away all their power. And they are left with?, they think it will be nothing without all their traditions and ritual ect ect. But hang on, You are the temple so what are all those other things? DUNG!. How many people have been thrown out with the bathwater when they've been bashed by these God botherers to death and just can't take it any more so they start asking questions about this existent god in the sky. And when they realise je doesn't exist they stop looking, who can blame them!. Makes me sad. How long before wally or Nathan throw some hell or false prophet verses at me 😁. They make Chrsitianity so compelling! Become like us, the most morbid bunch of selfish Christians staring at the sky, and you'll be saved!. 😁 Rant over 😁
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 4:42:43 GMT -5
He defended the cause of the poor and needy, and so all went well. Is that not what it means to know me?” declares the Lord. - Jeremiah 22:16 My new favorite verse. God insists how we live. Might not be the best explanation of God but the best I can do. This God does not "exist". Well then I agree.
Certainly, -I don't see any god "existing" that does that; "defended the cause of the poor and needy."
I am sorry to say that I also find very few PEOPLE "existing" who has "defended the cause of the poor and needy." There are some that I have known, -but honestly, -there just are not many people who act on that belief.
No but we see a God insiting everywhere, particularly at the momemt. I don't want to bible bash you but I feel its relevant. Religous zealots throw this verse around all the time as it always means them of course. But you have just hit the nail on the head with this verse and it's meaning when you say you see very few PEOPLE. 13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. - Matthew 7:13-14 If belief is a action. Its a mighty bold claim to say I believe God!. Of course we just say it off the cuff so flippantly with little regard to the depth of its meaning. And while im all revved up, I mentioned power and selfishness in my last post. I probably dont have to tell you but dont underestimate the power of thinking you can save yourself and how one can be so low and hateful to others whilst achieving that narrow road in life after death. Little do they know that life can begin now, its a way of life(not religous rituals either). That's why you see so few PEOPLE! act on that belief you rightly question. Me first!. Must save myself is first. How can many Christians not be selfish with this indoctrination. So sad 😪.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 16, 2020 8:12:39 GMT -5
Some think Christianity is about being a part of some group And fitting into the expectations of the group.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2020 13:02:50 GMT -5
Interesting. You seem to have taken a prominent New Age definition of 'God' and applied it to the Christian God. But I have no idea how you can do that AND believe what the bible says. Easy dont read the bible statically. Ah I see, you read it while holding Cling free. Do you think your God has changed from the murderous monster he was in the OT?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 16, 2020 13:48:21 GMT -5
Easy dont read the bible statically. Ah I see, you read it while holding Cling free. Do you think your God has changed from the murderous monster he was in the OT? The murderous monster god in the OT is a clear example of god being made in the image of man.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 16, 2020 14:34:30 GMT -5
Is this the part that you believe is relevant ?
"To be sure, the temples, which were almost forsaken, begin already to be frequented; and the holy solemnities, which were long intermitted, begin to be revived. The sacrifices begin to sell well everywhere, of which very few purchasers had of late appeared; whereby it is easy to suppose how great a multitude of men may be amended, if place for repentance be admitted."
Yes, I was aware of that correspondence between TRAJAN & PLINY and I can understand that could be a part of the reason, but the impact on the Roman society was quite a bit more than just the economic factor surely.
The whole thing not just one part. Yes Im sure there were other reasons but to stop the spread of this non existent God was obviously quite important, if they were just harmless why kill them? because their non "existent" God could quite easily collapse the economy that their gods and temple frame work fed. Back to my original point. Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods. God insists. God is true. But does not "exist". God is in you!. You are the temple, this threatens many Christians who believe in a existent god just like it threatened the romans. It threatens to take something away. Generally it comes down to power or money. For the 2x2's its more about power. They will never admit it but not being able to manipulate people and their god, takes away all their power. And they are left with?, they think it will be nothing without all their traditions and ritual ect ect. But hang on, You are the temple so what are all those other things? DUNG!. How many people have been thrown out with the bathwater when they've been bashed by these God botherers to death and just can't take it any more so they start asking questions about this existent god in the sky. And when they realise je doesn't exist they stop looking, who can blame them!. Makes me sad. How long before wally or Nathan throw some hell or false prophet verses at me 😁. They make Chrsitianity so compelling! Become like us, the most morbid bunch of selfish Christians staring at the sky, and you'll be saved!. 😁 Rant over 😁 This what I don't understand . You say the Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods.
Where is the evidence that Early Christians taught that God did not "exist" like all other Gods. ?
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Post by chuck on Apr 16, 2020 19:31:40 GMT -5
The whole thing not just one part. Yes Im sure there were other reasons but to stop the spread of this non existent God was obviously quite important, if they were just harmless why kill them? because their non "existent" God could quite easily collapse the economy that their gods and temple frame work fed. Back to my original point. Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods. God insists. God is true. But does not "exist". God is in you!. You are the temple, this threatens many Christians who believe in a existent god just like it threatened the romans. It threatens to take something away. Generally it comes down to power or money. For the 2x2's its more about power. They will never admit it but not being able to manipulate people and their god, takes away all their power. And they are left with?, they think it will be nothing without all their traditions and ritual ect ect. But hang on, You are the temple so what are all those other things? DUNG!. How many people have been thrown out with the bathwater when they've been bashed by these God botherers to death and just can't take it any more so they start asking questions about this existent god in the sky. And when they realise je doesn't exist they stop looking, who can blame them!. Makes me sad. How long before wally or Nathan throw some hell or false prophet verses at me 😁. They make Chrsitianity so compelling! Become like us, the most morbid bunch of selfish Christians staring at the sky, and you'll be saved!. 😁 Rant over 😁 This what I don't understand . You say the Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods.
Where is the evidence that Early Christians taught that God did not "exist" like all other Gods. ?The bible is riddle with this teaching to start with. God is in you!. Does not exist like any other god. The superstitious God in the letters is further evidence. Every other God Existed at this time. Be it a Emperor or a Statue or in a Temple ect. They existed. You could manipulate them. The God in you could not be manipulated by sacrifice, money, ritual ect.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 17, 2020 4:51:42 GMT -5
This what I don't understand . You say the Early Christians were killed for suggesting God did not "exist" like all other Gods.
Where is the evidence that Early Christians taught that God did not "exist" like all other Gods. ? The bible is riddle with this teaching to start with. God is in you!. Does not exist like any other god. The superstitious God in the letters is further evidence. Every other God Existed at this time. Be it a Emperor or a Statue or in a Temple ect. They existed. You could manipulate them. The God in you could not be manipulated by sacrifice, money, ritual ect. Actually, that isn't true if you are talking about the god of the old Testament or even the New Testament.
That god was actually created to be worshiped just as any other god was created.
It was a god who could be manipulated into giving you something if you followed certain rules.
There would really is not a need for a god at all if that weren't true.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 17, 2020 8:31:56 GMT -5
DMichgood, you are getting up too early. This post looks like it was written at 630 AM!!
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Post by chuck on Apr 17, 2020 23:05:47 GMT -5
The bible is riddle with this teaching to start with. God is in you!. Does not exist like any other god. The superstitious God in the letters is further evidence. Every other God Existed at this time. Be it a Emperor or a Statue or in a Temple ect. They existed. You could manipulate them. The God in you could not be manipulated by sacrifice, money, ritual ect. Actually, that isn't true if you are talking about the god of the old Testament or even the New Testament.
That god was actually created to be worshiped just as any other god was created.
It was a god who could be manipulated into giving you something if you followed certain rules.
There would really is not a need for a god at all if that weren't true.
It is true, and they died defending it. If you read the bible statically I can see why one would think that. The bible is a progressive dynamic revelation of God. The bible is full of examples of what God is not. Somehow because its in the bible it has to be how God is, who said?. Plenty of examples of people playing god but giving God the credit. So of course they manipulated god, after all that was normal in the old testament, why would you think otherwise or should we be surprised?. Christ showed us what was true all along. Progressive dynamic revelation of God. Christ the final word of God.
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