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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2020 17:18:23 GMT -5
Do we just discipline our children for ourselves or so that they grow up responsible human being. Yes I agree that many times God's discipline has been abusive. I don't believe in the phrase, I'm doing it for your good" - that's just an excuse for our own lack of parenting skills and ability to control our anger.
The birthday analogy is about kindness not punishment but guess one could say it's like God saying if you don't obey me then you won't get a present. Some parents might do that but I think as adults we are not in it for the presents which is what I'm saying about the post which says people are only in it because of the reward of heaven at the end. I'm saying I don't agree.
Plenty of people do things without a reward at the end. They give because they want to not because they have to. People give selflessly without an notion of a reward for them. Many people sacrifice themselves for the good of mankind.
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Post by xna on Apr 4, 2020 17:44:52 GMT -5
Do we just discipline our children for ourselves or so that they grow up responsible human being. I would say both; . The reciprocal altruism (tit for tat) part comes in here; Most parent don't want to be ashamed of, or embarrassed by their children, so they discipline them. Most parents don't want their kids to give them problems, so they discipline them. & so on.... Yes I agree that many times God's discipline has been abusive. I never heard of or experienced the workers being abusive. I first read of it here on TMB. Most think the god of the bible makes his own rules of what is right and wrong, abusive or non abusive Some think what is good is in an of itself good, and god just chose that to be good. The birthday apology is about kindness not punishment but guess one could say it's like God saying if you don't obey me then you won't get a present. Some parents might do that but I think as adults we are not in it for the presents which is what I'm saying about the post which says people are only religious because of the reward of heaven at the end. I'm saying I don't agree. Looking only at the kindness / reward side I see the god of the bible here too operates on reciprocal altruism (tit for tat) Isaiah 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise. Revelation 7:15For this reason, ‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; ... I once did not want to accept that I too operated on reciprocal altruism, but the more I was honest with myself and the more I examined myself I had to admit that I also operate on reciprocal altruism. It's just how the world works. We are all selfish even when we are doing the nicest of things.
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2020 18:06:16 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about the workers punishment I was talking about God's punishment.
It should have been the birthday analogy not apology which I habr8now changed in my post.
I added to my post which you also may have missed.
Plenty of people do things without a reward at the end. They give because they want to not because they have to. People give selflessly without an notion of a reward for them. Many people sacrifice themselves for the good of mankind.
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Post by xna on Apr 4, 2020 18:22:30 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about the workers punishment I was talking about God's punishment. Ok. Most people think god decides what is good, just and moral, and they say who are we to judge. For myself I don't always find the god of the bible is moral. Then I'm usually told his ways are above our ways, and in the fullness of time you will see clearly, .... It should have been the birthday analogy not apology. I understood what you were meaning. Plenty of people do things without a reward at the end. They give because they want to not because they have to. People give selflessly without an notion of a reward for them. Many people sacrifice themselves for the good of mankind. But think about "what did they get out of their altruism? Most of the time it's at least "it made them feel good". I sometimes give money to people anonymously ("a tit"). I do it because it does them good and it also makes me feel good. The "makes me feeling good" is my "tat". On several occasions when I travel I will eat at a diner in the middle of nowhere and leave the waitress a $100 tip. I walk out the door and I never see her reaction. I do this because I want to help her, and I feel really good giving without her knowing. "Feeling really good giving without her knowing" is my "tat". Some how it makes you feel better than handing her a $100 bill. I don't know why it works that way. So far I can't think of any example of altruism where I didn't get something out of it.
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Post by Grant on Apr 4, 2020 19:04:49 GMT -5
I'm sure there are people who would disagree with you. Many would rather be home with family rather than out helping others. I know some do it for money but many do it because they care about others more than themselves without any monetary reward.
Back to the question, do people follow a belief because of the end reward? I'm sure some do but I believe that many would also do it whether there was a reward at the end or not.
There is one particular poster on here, not mentioning any names though, who is obsessed with trying to keep out of hell and tries to put the fear of God into people with his hell, fire and brimstone posts at those who don't believe. Seems as if that his motive for believing is to keep out of hell.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 4, 2020 19:08:23 GMT -5
There is one particular poster on here, not mentioning any names though, who is obsessed with trying to keep out of hell and tries to put the fear of God into people with his hell, fire and brimstone posts at those who don't believe. Seems as if that his motive for believing is to keep out of hell. That was my reason for believing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2020 6:02:30 GMT -5
There is one particular poster on here, not mentioning any names though, who is obsessed with trying to keep out of hell and tries to put the fear of God into people with his hell, fire and brimstone posts at those who don't believe. Seems as if that his motive for believing is to keep out of hell. But, of course, once you stop believing there no longer exists a hell to keep out of. Hell is a fundamental part of the Christian package. It is the disease for which Christianity provides the medicine. Belief and hell go together. You can’t have one without the other. I think people may profess to keep out of hell or choose to behave in a particular way to keep out of hell (e.g praying, bible studying, not having a telly etc) but I can’t really see how keeping out of hell is a good reason to believe. It would actually make a lot more sense to quit believing if you really want to keep of hell because once you quit believing the concept of hell disappears. Similarly you can only put the fear of God into people who believe in God. If you don’t believe in God then there is no such thing as the fear of God and therefore it can’t be put into a non believer. Whoever that particular poster is then is clearly wasting his or her time here. It’s yet another classic example of believers not understanding non belief and non believers I suspect. One wonders how many days and months and years have been wasted by believers here seeking to persuade non believers to fear a God who, as far as they are concerned, doesn’t exist and never can. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2020 11:54:12 GMT -5
There is one particular poster on here, not mentioning any names though, who is obsessed with trying to keep out of hell and tries to put the fear of God into people with his hell, fire and brimstone posts at those who don't believe. Seems as if that his motive for believing is to keep out of hell. But, of course, once you stop believing there no longer exists a hell to keep out of. Hell is a fundamental part of the Christian package. It is the disease for which Christianity provides the medicine. Belief and hell go together. You can’t have one without the other. I think people may profess to keep out of hell or choose to behave in a particular way to keep out of hell (e.g praying, bible studying, not having a telly etc) but I can’t really see how keeping out of hell is a good reason to believe. It would actually make a lot more sense to quit believing if you really want to keep of hell because once you quit believing the concept of hell disappears. Similarly you can only put the fear of God into people who believe in God. If you don’t believe in God then there is no such thing as the fear of God and therefore it can’t be put into a non believer. Whoever that particular poster is then is clearly wasting his or her time here. It’s yet another classic example of believers not understanding non belief and non believers I suspect. One wonders how many days and months and years have been wasted by believers here seeking to persuade non believers to fear a God who, as far as they are concerned, doesn’t exist and never can. Matt10 stopping belief in something doesn't mean it ceases to exist....
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Post by Annan on Apr 5, 2020 12:00:55 GMT -5
stopping belief in something doesn't mean it ceases to exist.... Well, like, yeah, it does.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2020 12:02:36 GMT -5
stopping belief in something doesn't mean it ceases to exist.... Well, like, yeah, it does. right, i don't believe in communism, has it gone away?
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Post by Annan on Apr 5, 2020 12:12:29 GMT -5
Well, like, yeah, it does. right, i don't believe in communism, has it gone away? If I may coin a phrase... nice try...
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Post by snow on Apr 5, 2020 14:17:05 GMT -5
But, of course, once you stop believing there no longer exists a hell to keep out of. Hell is a fundamental part of the Christian package. It is the disease for which Christianity provides the medicine. Belief and hell go together. You can’t have one without the other. I think people may profess to keep out of hell or choose to behave in a particular way to keep out of hell (e.g praying, bible studying, not having a telly etc) but I can’t really see how keeping out of hell is a good reason to believe. It would actually make a lot more sense to quit believing if you really want to keep of hell because once you quit believing the concept of hell disappears. Similarly you can only put the fear of God into people who believe in God. If you don’t believe in God then there is no such thing as the fear of God and therefore it can’t be put into a non believer. Whoever that particular poster is then is clearly wasting his or her time here. It’s yet another classic example of believers not understanding non belief and non believers I suspect. One wonders how many days and months and years have been wasted by believers here seeking to persuade non believers to fear a God who, as far as they are concerned, doesn’t exist and never can. Matt10 stopping belief in something doesn't mean it ceases to exist.... And believing in something doesn't mean it exists.
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Post by snow on Apr 5, 2020 14:18:13 GMT -5
Well, like, yeah, it does. right, i don't believe in communism, has it gone away? Sure you believe in communism, you just don't believe it's a good thing, but actual communism that it exists you do believe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2020 15:49:51 GMT -5
But, of course, once you stop believing there no longer exists a hell to keep out of. Hell is a fundamental part of the Christian package. It is the disease for which Christianity provides the medicine. Belief and hell go together. You can’t have one without the other. I think people may profess to keep out of hell or choose to behave in a particular way to keep out of hell (e.g praying, bible studying, not having a telly etc) but I can’t really see how keeping out of hell is a good reason to believe. It would actually make a lot more sense to quit believing if you really want to keep of hell because once you quit believing the concept of hell disappears. Similarly you can only put the fear of God into people who believe in God. If you don’t believe in God then there is no such thing as the fear of God and therefore it can’t be put into a non believer. Whoever that particular poster is then is clearly wasting his or her time here. It’s yet another classic example of believers not understanding non belief and non believers I suspect. One wonders how many days and months and years have been wasted by believers here seeking to persuade non believers to fear a God who, as far as they are concerned, doesn’t exist and never can. Matt10 stopping belief in something doesn't mean it ceases to exist.... It does if it’s an imaginary place which exists only in the mind of the believer. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2020 17:06:25 GMT -5
right, i don't believe in communism, has it gone away? Sure you believe in communism, you just don't believe it's a good thing, but actual communism that it exists you do believe. its only in the mind of its believers, its not a valid way of thinking, it delusional, no one in their right mind would think that way, argumentum ad populum, see what i did there? i used terms that atheists attempt to use to DISPROVE God, Christanity, religion therefore i don't believe in it so it must cease to exist...
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Post by snow on Apr 5, 2020 17:13:15 GMT -5
Sure you believe in communism, you just don't believe it's a good thing, but actual communism that it exists you do believe. its only in the mind of its believers, its not a valid way of thinking, it delusional, no one in their right mind would think that way, argumentum ad populum, see what i did there? i used terms that atheists attempt to use to DISPROVE God, Christanity, religion therefore i don't believe in it so it must cease to exist... Nope, you've totally lost me here. I don't see that. But then I can be totally dense so....
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 5, 2020 17:37:17 GMT -5
So far I can't think of any example of altruism where I didn't get something out of it. This is what Kahlil Gibran had to say about giving. The bolded parts are the ones I think about a lot. A lot. I have the privilege of living in a way where I feel very connected to the earth, so I think plant metaphors work well for me: You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. For what are your possessions but things you keep and guard for fear you may need them tomorrow? And tomorrow, what shall tomorrow bring to the overprudent dog burying bones in the trackless sand as he follows the pilgrims to the holy city? And what is fear of need but need itself? Is not dread of thirst when your well is full, the thirst that is unquenchable?
There are those who give little of the much which they have--and they give it for recognition and their hidden desire makes their gifts unwholesome. And there are those who have little and give it all. These are the believers in life and the bounty of life, and their coffer is never empty. There are those who give with joy, and that joy is their reward.
And there are those who give with pain, and that pain is their baptism. And there are those who give and know not pain in giving, nor do they seek joy, nor give with mindfulness of virtue; They give as in yonder valley the myrtle breathes its fragrance into space. Through the hands of such as these God speaks, and from behind their eyes He smiles upon the earth.
It is well to give when asked, but it is better to give unasked, through understanding; And to the open-handed the search for one who shall receive is joy greater than giving. And is there aught you would withhold? All you have shall some day be given; Therefore give now, that the season of giving may be yours and not your inheritors'.
You often say, "I would give, but only to the deserving." The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture. They give that they may live, for to withhold is to perish.
Surely he who is worthy to receive his days and his nights, is worthy of all else from you. And he who has deserved to drink from the ocean of life deserves to fill his cup from your little stream. And what desert greater shall there be, than that which lies in the courage and the confidence, nay the charity, of receiving? And who are you that men should rend their bosom and unveil their pride, that you may see their worth naked and their pride unabashed? See first that you yourself deserve to be a giver, and an instrument of giving. For in truth it is life that gives unto life while you, who deem yourself a giver, are but a witness.
And you receivers—and you are all receivers—assume no weight of gratitude, lest you lay a yoke upon yourself and upon him who gives. Rather rise together with the giver on his gifts as on wings; For to be overmindful of your debt, is to doubt his generosity who has the freehearted earth for mother, and God for father.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 6, 2020 15:57:15 GMT -5
There is one particular poster on here, not mentioning any names though, who is obsessed with trying to keep out of hell and tries to put the fear of God into people with his hell, fire and brimstone posts at those who don't believe. Seems as if that his motive for believing is to keep out of hell. That was my reason for believing. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 6, 2020 21:57:14 GMT -5
That was my reason for believing. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. If it's who I think you mean, they also once said that if there was no eternity then they would not believe. Draw your own conclusions about that.
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