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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2020 10:40:50 GMT -5
I believe that the scientific world view can explain almost anything," he says. "But I just think there is another world view as well." You get a few scientists like Richard Dawkins and Peter Atkins [professor of chemistry at Oxford] who at least talk as though they cannot understand how a scientist could possibly be religious. But I would say that, generally speaking, throughout the scientific community there is considerable acceptance that, OK, although one might not be a religious person oneself, one's fellow scientist can be." Colin Humphreys Professor of materials science Cambridge u www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/science/2003/sep/04/science.research I can understand why a scientist like Humphreys might believe in a something or some entity that may have "created" the universe, -but Humphreys stated that he was a Christian and I cannot understand how he nor any other scientist could restrict themselves to a "Christian" god with all the scientific impossibilities that Christianity presents!
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 29, 2020 10:47:39 GMT -5
I can understand why a scientist like Humphreys might believe in a something or some entity that may have "created" the universe, -but Humphreys stated that he was a Christian and I cannot understand how he nor any other scientist could restrict themselves to a "Christian" god with all the scientific impossibilities that Christianity presents!
I think ,he , like many of us , are still giving a lot of questions “a good bashing” “The forum embraces what one of its begetters, Arthur Peacocke, pioneer of DNA research in Britain, called "wistful agnostics" and sceptics, as well as Christians and people from other faiths. "It's about how we can worship a creator God who is creating now, and still hold on to the scientific world view as we understand it," says Phil Edwards, who trained in physics but is now a chaplain to the Bolton Institute.”
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2020 11:23:30 GMT -5
I can understand why a scientist like Humphreys might believe in a something or some entity that may have "created" the universe, -but Humphreys stated that he was a Christian and I cannot understand how he nor any other scientist could restrict themselves to a "Christian" god with all the scientific impossibilities that Christianity presents!
I think ,he , like many of us , are still giving a lot of questions “a good bashing” “The forum embraces what one of its begetters, Arthur Peacocke, pioneer of DNA research in Britain, called "wistful agnostics" and sceptics, as well as Christians and people from other faiths. "It's about how we can worship a creator God who is creating now, and still hold on to the scientific world view as we understand it," says Phil Edwards, who trained in physics but is now a chaplain to the Bolton Institute.” Well, I can indeed understand why they would call themselves "wistful agnostics."
Attempting to try to hang onto a nostalgic reverie from the past that gives them a sense that there is "something" in charge of what appears to be a chaotic random world is indeed comforting, but what I expect from the scientific community is a solving of the problems of the that world, -like the virus we have now.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:13:39 GMT -5
That's interesting. It was the opposite for me. I was very surprised to see how many ex 2x2's just went to another Christian church. I expected them to become an atheist or a different religion at least when they left. Why stay a Christian? snow The reason many ex-2x2s remain Christians is because we were not unhappy with Christianity or God. We are/were totally OK with Christianity and wanted to continue to use the Bible as our standard and to follow the NT teachings. We felt the workers were not doing this in various areas. We were unhappy with various things: the Workers administration, unnecessary rules and government of the friends, deceit over the founder and beginnings, CSA, divorce and remarriage, etc. Unhappy and disappointed that in a church that claimed they were the church that most closely followed the NT teachings--yet in many areas, this was not true. We were seriously disappointed in the 2x2 leaders and their method they claimed was God's only right way. Maybe this will help you understand... Thanks Cherie, yes since I have been on here I have come to understand the reasons and agree with most of them. But when I first found this and TLC it shocked me that they left and still remained Theists. Never crossed my mind to try another church because it was the Christian God that I found so appalling and why I quit professing at 12. So that's the reason I was so surprised that others from the group were still worshiping that same God. I do understand the reasons why now a bit better.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:14:32 GMT -5
Well Quebec has police at border crossings . Beat that gaseous orange blob to the punch . We don’t want you Donald . We want a wall , that kills the virus 🦠 and you cannot climb it , your paying ! Canadians are not always polite Trump Maybe Trump was right all along - that Mexico will pay for the wall. haha at the moment it might be a good investment for both Mexico AND Canada!
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:17:33 GMT -5
As usual, you haven't answered the question. Please tell me what tells you that your landlord is being moved by God, rather than being a nice human being? He is a Christian and God moves his heart to give us a break during the Corona Virus Crisis.I am not a Christian but I'm helping people. No God is moving my heart to do anything. You cannot prove that God has anything to do with what your landlord has decided. There is no way to prove that.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:23:35 GMT -5
Dan, -you make so many assumptions about why I no longer believe that the bible to be true, -that I hardly know where to begin!
I have underlined some of the assumptions in your post.
When you something like this:
"But when someone is easily persuaded that the bible is not true, its not a stretch to conclude that they probably weren't totally convinced in the first place," --then you are diminishing & demeaning my sincerity! Why do you assume that your sincerity is superior to mine?
When you assume that I was "easily persuaded that the bible is not true," -you have NO idea of the journey we take! You have NO idea of the depth of my belief or how hard the struggle was to leave!
When you talk about leaving because of becoming "disgruntled with a group of people," -again, you have no idea of all the reasons that people come to believe as they do!- You seem to think that we can't honestly & logically look at an idea & make a rational determination of the legitimacy of that idea!
Then you talk about it being a "my choice."
When a person studies the rationality of whether something could or could NOT happen, - there isn't any "choice" about it.
"Faith in science" has nothing to do with "faith" in "man" as you claim.
Science is knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.
It has nothing to do with "faith"!
Now, I could make a lot of assumptions as to why you, Dan need to continue to believe in a idea that flouts all laws of the laws of physics , -but I am not going to do so.
But I would appreciate it if you would stop treating me as if you know why I have come to believe as I do.
It wasn't my intent to make assumptions about anyone specific, it was just my generalization of why some grew to trust science over Christ.
When someone gets married, they are usually sincere about that conviction, but when they divorce, the sincerity of their previous "I DO" becomes questionable. My comment that a person who once committed to Christ, only to have a change of heart, seemed like a complete about-face. I admit that the reasons for that are various, but replacing God with science is one speculative cause that a few people haven articulated here.
If you once professed Christ, but now denounce him, then yes, its a logical presumption that your initial sincerely wasn't as deeply rooted as those who have kept the faith. That's not a criticism, just an obvious observation.
I too trust scientific facts, but that doesn't relinquish or contradict my trust in God. Science simply observes what is physically possible, but God being a spiritual Being is not bound by physical limitations. So I don't apply to God what science dictates, while you seem to think that an omnipotent Being is restrained by the laws of physics. Perhaps that's the choice we make?
Basically what you are saying is that if someone gets married, loves their new spouse and then in the future they don't anymore, they never loved them in the first place. That's illogical. I loved my husband when I married him. Years of domestic violence, unfaithfulness etc killed that. I still cared about him and we remained friends until he passed away, but there was no spousal love anymore. So for you to say that we never 'really believed' in God if we could leave and not believe anymore is so wrong it's laughable. It is possible to love and honor and then not to.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:25:49 GMT -5
I know our family will get 3,600 dollars the next 3 weeks from uncle Sam..... And tons of money from the gov't loans and grant for our business in the next 3 weeks also. Praise the LORD! We were dead on water before the Corona Virus Pandemic. Now, we just rest up so, when they ease up the locked down so, we can go back to work and watch our distances from the customers.
Romans 8:27-28 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
By the way, we get 3 months delay from our mortage loan, cars, and credit cards! Hey, LIFE is God when you put your Faith and Trust in God. This is how many life been for the last 40 yrs AFTER to commit my life to Christ. Help from ABOVE has always come at the right time.... And You/atheists TRY to convince me there is NO God and He isn't REAL, or it's just my own imagination and believing in a MYTH, there is no God in the sky! Believe in God before the Virus gets you then it will be, too late. Nathan, would you like to admit publicly, that you are incapable of answering a direct question with a direct answer? How did you determine that one particular god was responsible for the government giving you $3,600? And while you're at it, if God is responsible for everything, isn't he responsible for the coronavirus? Bet you anything the answer will be that Satan is responsible for the coronavirus. Good to have a scapegoat so you don't need to blame God who you desperately need to believe is only good.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -5
Nathan, would you like to admit publicly, that you are incapable of answering a direct question with a direct answer? How did you determine that one particular god was responsible for the government giving you $3,600? And while you're at it, if God is responsible for everything, isn't he responsible for the coronavirus? Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Satan caused Job all kinds of problems, created fire from heaven, might winds, and bandits to kill Job's 10 children and servants and animals. Then Satan sent boils from the top of Job's head to his toes then he said, "Even if God slays me will I trust Him." God did NOT send boils or kill his children or their servants and herds of animals but Satan who did it. People BLAMED it on God. However, at the end of Job's trial and test God blessed him and his wife with 10 children and made them the one of the riches people in the land.
Only in Eternity we will KNOW for sure was it Satan, or Satan's evil children men/Illuminati created these deadly Viruses in the military labs to depopulation, or God but I don't believe God did it.
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 12:55:36 GMT -5
...atan caused Job all kinds of problems, created fire from heaven, might winds, and bandits to kill Job's 10 children and servants and animals. ...at the end of Job's trial and test God blessed him and his wife with 10 children and made them the one of the riches people in the land. So more children and riches makes up for all the pain Job suffered? Did not Job and his wife mourn their ten dead children? What a terrible thing! More children doesn't make you forget the ones you lost. All the money in the world doesn't make up for that pain. This is one of the most disturbing stories in the bible. Off course most parents mourn for the deaths of their own children. What is done is done. Satan killed and destroyed this world belongs to him and his fallen angels. The humans souls and lives belong to them and they can do with us whatever they want. This is what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews about Satan in John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Satan kills; Christ Jesus SAVES souls in John 10 " I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. The thief/Satan and his followers cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
So, it was Satan that killed Job's 10 children but it was God and Christ gave them the birth/life of 10 new children... How can it be disturbing? This earth has been a battle field/War Zone for millions, billions of years or longer through the Universe between God Vs. Satan and his 1/3 of the fallen angels.
Rev. 12:7-9 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So, the intelligence beings throughout the Universe and humans beings that God created are caught in this WAR between Satan and Godhead... We and them must choose which side we want to be on God Vs. Satan. There is no NEUTRAL ground in this WAR. To accept Jesus is Life Eternal; To accept Satan is Eternal Death or separation from God forever.
Jesus said in John 3:13-21 13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 29, 2020 13:10:11 GMT -5
Nathan, would you like to admit publicly, that you are incapable of answering a direct question with a direct answer? How did you determine that one particular god was responsible for the government giving you $3,600? And while you're at it, if God is responsible for everything, isn't he responsible for the coronavirus? Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Satan caused Job all kinds of problems, created fire from heaven, might winds, and bandits to kill Job's 10 children and servants and animals. Then Satan sent boils from the top of Job's head to his toes then he said, "Even if God slays me will I trust Him." God did NOT send boils or kill his children or their servants and herds of animals but Satan who did it. People BLAMED it on God. However, at the end of Job's trial and test God blessed him and his wife with 10 children and made them the one of the riches people in the land.
Only in Eternity we will KNOW for sure was it Satan, or Satan's evil children men/Illuminati created these deadly Viruses in the military labs to depopulation, or God but I don't believe God did it.
While there is people like yourself in the world still believing in superstitious mumbo jumbo there will be much hindrance for the advancement of the well being of people.
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Post by fixit on Mar 29, 2020 15:02:12 GMT -5
Basically what you are saying is that if someone gets married, loves their new spouse and then in the future they don't anymore, they never loved them in the first place. That's illogical. I loved my husband when I married him. Years of domestic violence, unfaithfulness etc killed that. I still cared about him and we remained friends until he passed away, but there was no spousal love anymore. So for you to say that we never 'really believed' in God if we could leave and not believe anymore is so wrong it's laughable. It is possible to love and honor and then not to. Yes, it's just another example of twisting the scripture to fit the narrative.
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Post by fixit on Mar 29, 2020 15:06:46 GMT -5
Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend?
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 15:43:07 GMT -5
Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? Yes, we are very fortunate during this Great Corona Crisis that we live in United States as business owners. This way we can hire employees for our business and keep on paying Taxes to uncle Sam.
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 29, 2020 15:49:34 GMT -5
Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? Yes, we are very fortunate during this Great Corona Crisis that we live in United States as business owners. This way we can hire employees for our business and keep on paying Taxes to uncle Sam. Fire up the presses , print some more Monopoly money ,helicopter it around , how can the game end well , Dunno. Working so far , BUT ...
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 15:54:45 GMT -5
Yes, we are very fortunate during this Great Corona Crisis that we live in United States as business owners. This way we can hire employees for our business and keep on paying Taxes to uncle Sam. Fire up the presses , print some more Monopoly money ,helicopter it around , how can the game end well , Dunno. Working so far , BUT ... We Americans are very great full for the U.S. Democrats and Republicans coming together and with the President Trump putting this huge Stimulus package to help the citizens, businesses to STAY alive during this horrible Crisis in history of United States... without us working and paying TAXES to uncle Sam there will be no America to exist as Super Power to help the less, unfortunate, and poor nations.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 15:59:51 GMT -5
Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? Now those who are crying about not wanting to make the US into a socialist state are soooo happy they are getting a hand out. People have been in need for a long time and these same people said no way. Now I bet they take any handout available.
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 16:06:50 GMT -5
Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? Now those who are crying about not wanting to make the US into a socialist state are soooo happy they are getting a hand out. People have been in need for a long time and these same people said no way. Now I bet they take any handout available. The United States gov't will get 1000 times in return for the stimulus handout with TAXES from the Americans for the next 100 years easily. Just think the trillions dollars of the Americans Social Security funds they took after 9/11 for the War in Iraq/Afgan. and they haven't a dime back in the S.S. account that they robbed/took from us.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 29, 2020 16:22:49 GMT -5
Without the gov't help grants and loan we are DONE! Dead ducks, DEAD meats. Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? They have not got endless money to spend but they do have a great big printing machine.
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 16:37:16 GMT -5
Isn't it great that your government has an endless amount of money to spend? They have not got endless money to spend but they do have a great big printing machine. Thanks, goodness for Uncle Sam printing money machine during this horrible Corona Pandemic Crisis, will save millions of Americans lives, jobs and the United States as a nation. I wish all of the nations can print their own money to help their own citizens also.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 16:41:17 GMT -5
They have not got endless money to spend but they do have a great big printing machine. Thanks, goodness for Uncle Sam printing money machine during this horrible Corona Pandemic Crisis, will save millions of Americans lives, jobs and the United States as a nation. I wish all of the nations can print their own money to help their own citizens also. Printed money that isn't based on anything, like gold for instance, is worthless and become so inflated that it's useless. Look at what happened to Germany's economy when they basically did just that. I have to wonder how much people even know about how the world works.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 16:51:46 GMT -5
...atan caused Job all kinds of problems, created fire from heaven, might winds, and bandits to kill Job's 10 children and servants and animals. ...at the end of Job's trial and test God blessed him and his wife with 10 children and made them the one of the riches people in the land. So more children and riches makes up for all the pain Job suffered? Did not Job and his wife mourn their ten dead children? What a terrible thing! More children doesn't make you forget the ones you lost. All the money in the world doesn't make up for that pain. This is one of the most disturbing stories in the bible. no one is suggesting that anyone is forgetting what came before but people can find joy again to some degree with new things in their life like a new set of 10 children for job and material things being replaced with new material things...
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 16:53:48 GMT -5
Thanks, goodness for Uncle Sam printing money machine during this horrible Corona Pandemic Crisis, will save millions of Americans lives, jobs and the United States as a nation. I wish all of the nations can print their own money to help their own citizens also. Printed money that isn't based on anything, like gold for instance, is worthless and become so inflated that it's useless. Look at what happened to Germany's economy when they basically did just that. I have to wonder how much people even know about how the world works. I know about these things... What good gold does for the humans when MOST of us are DEAD! around the globe because of this horrible Deadliest Virus that spreads so fast and quickly around the world in 4 months.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2020 16:58:33 GMT -5
Printed money that isn't based on anything, like gold for instance, is worthless and become so inflated that it's useless. Look at what happened to Germany's economy when they basically did just that. I have to wonder how much people even know about how the world works. I know about these things... What good gold does for the humans when MOST of us are DEAD! around the globe because of this horrible Deadliest Virus that spreads so fast and quickly around the world in 4 months.Carry on Nathan. Trying to explain things to you is as futile as trying to catch water with a sieve. I'm glad you're happy about the hand out. I do hope it does help you and your family. I do.
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Post by Dan on Mar 29, 2020 17:09:57 GMT -5
...If you once professed Christ, but now denounce him, then yes, its a logical presumption that your initial sincerely wasn't as deeply rooted as those who have kept the faith. That's not a criticism, just an obvious observation... That's not obvious at all, Dan. Have you ever changed your mind about anything? Suppose you decide it's going to rain today. Turns out, it didn't rain. Will you hold to your belief that it should have rained, lest you display your initial sincerity was lacking? The weather changes, Christ hasn't..
I don't think you understand the meaning of logical fallacy. Just as you don't understand the meaning of the word faith. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: If one cannot physically observe and verify anything spiritual, then you, who asserts the spiritual, are claiming to detect the undetectable - a logical impossibility!
Since I have faith, I suspect I understand what it is.
Spiritual things have been observed.. I believe those who witnessed the resurrected Christ, it wasn't undetectable. Of course its all received by faith since science can't explain it.
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Post by nathan on Mar 29, 2020 17:13:14 GMT -5
I know about these things... What good gold does for the humans when MOST of us are DEAD! around the globe because of this horrible Deadliest Virus that spreads so fast and quickly around the world in 4 months. Carry on Nathan. Trying to explain things to you is as futile as trying to catch water with a sieve. I'm glad you're happy about the hand out. I do hope it does help you and your family. I do. Thanks, snow... City Portlanders are stuck in homes for a month or more... We have rent bills, credits cards to pay, and need money to buy foods to last that long. Afraid to go out grocery stores, the Virus can survive on the shopping cart handles, foods, paper bags, and so on... people are living in fear around here!
One lady purposely cough in the produce/vegetable section the police arrived and took her away! The owner of the store had to throw away all of the products.
With my line of work, we have to figure out to keep a 3-6 feet from the customers from now on! It's NOT if we get the Virus but WHEN, I pray that they will have the Vaccine soon or many people will die.
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Post by Dan on Mar 29, 2020 17:34:26 GMT -5
Do you not believe that the rain falls on the just and unjust? Absolutely... I'm as just as it gets and I'm getting the hell kicked out of me
Take for example the coronavirus situation. It is clear from the havoc, pain and suffering which it has created that (a) either there is no God or (b) God doesn’t give a hoot about our pain and suffering.
I'll go with B... If God wanted the virus stopped, He'd stop it, but he hasn't intervened, not yet anyhow. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth" (Genesis 6:5). "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape" (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 29, 2020 17:34:55 GMT -5
Thanks, goodness for Uncle Sam printing money machine during this horrible Corona Pandemic Crisis, will save millions of Americans lives, jobs and the United States as a nation. I wish all of the nations can print their own money to help their own citizens also. Printed money that isn't based on anything, like gold for instance, is worthless and become so inflated that it's useless. Look at what happened to Germany's economy when they basically did just that. I have to wonder how much people even know about how the world works. Weimar Republic - November 1923 I think 200 billion German Papiermarks to buy a loaf of bread . Our teacher talked about being a kid , took wheelbarrow full of cash to buy few groceries. Not sure how the end game could be any different “this time around “ Alvin
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