Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 11:09:28 GMT -5
What do these words mean to "workers and friends"? I am asking this in regard to helping those in need both spiritually and naturally.
What I have witnessed in my life time is those judged to be worthy of others help are helped. Those judged to not be worthy are judged harshly and gossiped about and left to fend for themselves.
How is this morally or ethically right?
For the "friends and workers" if they deem you are in a situation not of your own making then you might be worthy of their help. But if they perceive (not based on fact) you are in the situation of your own making you are not worthy.
If you believe in the bible then you know no one is worthy of any forgiveness or salvation. Only the blood of Christ is covering for your sins. How can you judge anyone as being worthy or unworthy of your help?
The one thing that I do not understand how you can claim to, profess to serve God, but turn your back on others in need because you judge them to be unworthy of your help.
By helping those they deem worthy it seems to me they are trying to BUY their way into heaven. They help workers or high profile friends. Meanwhile their neighbor could be starving naturally or spiritually and they would not lift a finger. I had parents who were always there for others rich, poor, "professing" or "unprofessing".
I have tried to help other no matter their situation. Being raised poor and feeling looked down on by most friends and some workers because we were poor and a large family has always made me very sensitive to this problem.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 15:30:41 GMT -5
What do these words mean to "workers and friends"? I am asking this in regard to helping those in need both spiritually and naturally. What I have witnessed in my life time is those judged to be worthy of others help are helped. Those judged to not be worthy are judged harshly and gossiped about and left to fend for themselves. How is this morally or ethically right? For the "friends and workers" if they deem you are in a situation not of your own making then you might be worthy of their help. But if they perceive (not based on fact) you are in the situation of your own making you are not worthy. If you believe in the bible then you know no one is worthy of any forgiveness or salvation. Only the blood of Christ is covering for your sins. How can you judge anyone as being worthy or unworthy of your help? The one thing that I do not understand how you can claim to, profess to serve God, but turn your back on others in need because you judge them to be unworthy of your help. By helping those they deem worthy it seems to me they are trying to BUY their way into heaven. They help workers or high profile friends. Meanwhile their neighbor could be starving naturally or spiritually and they would not lift a finger. I had parents who were always there for others rich, poor, "professing" or "unprofessing". I have tried to help other no matter their situation. Being raised poor and feeling looked down on by most friends and some workers because we were poor and a large family has always made me very sensitive to this problem. “Judge not that ye be not judged" is the sort of thing Christian leaders come off with regularly. It’s not only the 2x2 workers. It helps to remember that Christianity in primarily a theoretical religion in which scripture is preached but not necessarily lived. It’s often a case of ‘Do as I say not as I do’. Not for nothing did Jesus warm about the hypocrites. I think it’s also fair to say that helping the downtrodden has never been a priority of the 2x2 system. The 2x2 church is not about morals or ethics. It is about workers and meetings and 2x2 doctrine. ‘Leave the dead to bury the dead’ and ‘the poor ye have with ye always’ are the 2x2’s scriptural defences for this lack of concern and compassion. You can pretty much find a scriptural defence for anything. It’s also worth noting that “Professing to serve God” in the 2x2 sense only means agreeing to abide by the unwritten 2x2 rules, accepting the living witness doctrine and attending and participating in meetings. It doesn’t necessarily mean that one follows Jesus’s teachings. Remember you’re just as (or perhaps more?) likely to come across a non believer who loves their neighbour as themselves as a 2x2 and you’re just as (or perhaps more?) likely to come across a non believer who goes the second mile or helps the Levite lying in the street as a Christian. The Christian churches tend to be much more about doctrine than Jesus’s teachings although you might not actually realise that by listening to them preaching. It is therefore wise to treat anyone attempting to sell you their version of Christianity as you would a dodgy used car salesman. Once you accept that the 2x2 church is a man made church (just as Christianity is a man made religion) your expectations will be much reduced and you won’t be quite so disappointed. The difficulty arises when one is taught that the 2x2 church is special and the workers are put in a pedestal only to find that when the surface is scratched the gilt wears off swiftly. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 16:59:59 GMT -5
What do these words mean to "workers and friends"? I am asking this in regard to helping those in need both spiritually and naturally. What I have witnessed in my life time is those judged to be worthy of others help are helped. Those judged to not be worthy are judged harshly and gossiped about and left to fend for themselves. How is this morally or ethically right? For the "friends and workers" if they deem you are in a situation not of your own making then you might be worthy of their help. But if they perceive (not based on fact) you are in the situation of your own making you are not worthy. If you believe in the bible then you know no one is worthy of any forgiveness or salvation. Only the blood of Christ is covering for your sins. How can you judge anyone as being worthy or unworthy of your help? The one thing that I do not understand how you can claim to, profess to serve God, but turn your back on others in need because you judge them to be unworthy of your help. By helping those they deem worthy it seems to me they are trying to BUY their way into heaven. They help workers or high profile friends. Meanwhile their neighbor could be starving naturally or spiritually and they would not lift a finger. I had parents who were always there for others rich, poor, "professing" or "unprofessing". I have tried to help other no matter their situation. Being raised poor and feeling looked down on by most friends and some workers because we were poor and a large family has always made me very sensitive to this problem. when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously...
|
|
|
Post by iam on Mar 24, 2020 22:12:46 GMT -5
It is never, ever tight to judge anyone unworthy in our faith. Having said that, it's often often done. It didn't matter to Jesus if it was the person's fault. The man that fell among thieves and was lying half dead in the ditch...all of God's people passed him by. Only the Samaritan helped him and in no small way. One man in the truth told me it's ok to help someone like that because it wasn't his fault!! That made me gag. That man also had very little peace. No mercy. The man in the ditch was on his way to Jericho. A no-no for the people of God. So he was already on the wrong track. Funny thing is so were the priests and the Levites, but they had the least mercy. Anyhoo, that's life today in the 2&2 way. Yesterday today and forever here below 🙄
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Mar 25, 2020 14:32:18 GMT -5
A lot of questions intersect with the opening post:
How should christians give themselves away to the world. How should they give to one another. How much should the family unit give to others or conserve. Can we cure poverty if we attack it together. Can the world cure poverty if it attacks it all together.
Is god primarily concerned with a gnosis, with spirituality or is he primarily concerned with applied spirituality, keeping the body and the resurrection in equal view. He might well be thought of as a spirit creating... God has been materializing the world for a while now.
If poverty cant be cured, my working theory and orientation is the world is hostage to sin, as compared to light as the light is enjoyed elsewhere ( heaven).
So while to give or not to give is a complex question, the question has revealed a couple faults in the 2x2 gospel.
1. They value the gnosis of the gospel over the value of the body, resulting in a paucity of applied gnosis and lack of concern with the complementary and teleological role of the body in salvation.
2. Its reveals the denominational priority. Their sectarian gospel causes conflict with the understanding that God desires all men would be saved.
3. As the OP observed, wrong ideas about salvation leads to hypocritical judging. Hypocritical judges tend to be the poorest people of all.
Wrong ideas about salvation leads to political compromise. As was implied, some people have been seduced into believing they can buy their salvation.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 18:35:08 GMT -5
What do these words mean to "workers and friends"? I am asking this in regard to helping those in need both spiritually and naturally. What I have witnessed in my life time is those judged to be worthy of others help are helped. Those judged to not be worthy are judged harshly and gossiped about and left to fend for themselves. How is this morally or ethically right? For the "friends and workers" if they deem you are in a situation not of your own making then you might be worthy of their help. But if they perceive (not based on fact) you are in the situation of your own making you are not worthy. If you believe in the bible then you know no one is worthy of any forgiveness or salvation. Only the blood of Christ is covering for your sins. How can you judge anyone as being worthy or unworthy of your help? The one thing that I do not understand how you can claim to, profess to serve God, but turn your back on others in need because you judge them to be unworthy of your help. By helping those they deem worthy it seems to me they are trying to BUY their way into heaven. They help workers or high profile friends. Meanwhile their neighbor could be starving naturally or spiritually and they would not lift a finger. I had parents who were always there for others rich, poor, "professing" or "unprofessing". I have tried to help other no matter their situation. Being raised poor and feeling looked down on by most friends and some workers because we were poor and a large family has always made me very sensitive to this problem. when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... What's the difference? It's still judging.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 18:40:40 GMT -5
when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... What's the difference? It's still judging. well if you read ALL of the verses following the judge not verse you'll see that righteous judging is okay... www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6NF-2Abd0E3:49 minutes long Frank Turek
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:02:58 GMT -5
Righteous judging sounds like an oxymoron. How do you know you are righteous and qualified to make a judgement about another person. The first thing is you would have to do, is make a judgement about yourself, that is not a good idea.
It is practically impossible to judge yourself fairly. Just like you can't push a car while sitting inside the car, you can't pass a fair judgement about yourself without a bias. Someone has wisely said, "You don't see the world as it is."
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 19:02:59 GMT -5
What's the difference? It's still judging. well if you read ALL of the verses following the judge not verse you'll see that righteous judging is okay... www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6NF-2Abd0E3:49 minutes long Frank Turek I disagree. Judging is judging. Judging negates someone else. We all do make observations, but if we leave out the judging that works better.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:06:12 GMT -5
The only judging that is acceptable is in a Court of Law.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:08:17 GMT -5
Righteous judging sounds like an oxymoron. How do you know you are righteous and qualified to make a judgement about another person. The first thing is you would have to do, is make a judgement about yourself, that is not a good idea. It is practically impossible to judge yourself fairly. Just like you can't push a car while sitting inside the car, you can't pass a fair judgement about yourself without a bias. Someone has wisely said, "You don't see the world as it is." most likely it would occur if your not engaging in the same behavior that is occurring in another person...you do know that people can be righteous from time to time right? example i am quite sure your righteous when it comes to CSA so when someone else does it you would be well within your rights to judge them....I.E you have no beam in your eye so you can take the mote out of someone elses eye...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:16:50 GMT -5
I would prefer the judgement is made by a Court of Law. I may not have the correct information, or the proper facts. Not a good thing to reach a conclusion from "Hear Say" talk.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 19:56:40 GMT -5
and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... Do you mean judge according to how it looks in your eyes?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 20:16:24 GMT -5
and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... Do you mean judge according to how it looks in your eyes? no...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 20:49:43 GMT -5
and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... How do you know you are judging righteously?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 20:52:36 GMT -5
and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... How do you know you are judging righteously? as i told redback: most likely it would occur if your not engaging in the same behavior that is occurring in another person...you do know that people can be righteous from time to time right? example i am quite sure your righteous when it comes to CSA so when someone else does it you would be well within your rights to judge them....I.E you have no beam in your eye so you can take the mote out of someone elses eye...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 21:15:46 GMT -5
How do you know you are judging righteously? as i told redback: most likely it would occur if your not engaging in the same behavior that is occurring in another person...you do know that people can be righteous from time to time right? example i am quite sure your righteous when it comes to CSA so when someone else does it you would be well within your rights to judge them....I.E you have no beam in your eye so you can take the mote out of someone elses eye... I expect nothing I say will change your mind, but that's not what Jesus was saying.
|
|
|
Post by speak on Mar 25, 2020 22:01:00 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 22:08:53 GMT -5
as i told redback: most likely it would occur if your not engaging in the same behavior that is occurring in another person...you do know that people can be righteous from time to time right? example i am quite sure your righteous when it comes to CSA so when someone else does it you would be well within your rights to judge them....I.E you have no beam in your eye so you can take the mote out of someone elses eye... I expect nothing I say will change your mind, but that's not what Jesus was saying. i suspect i stumped ya....right back at you....
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 25, 2020 22:26:15 GMT -5
I expect nothing I say will change your mind, but that's not what Jesus was saying. i suspect i stumped ya....right back at you.... Jesus was simply telling them they should judge fairly, judge with compassion and mercy, and consider that things are not always as they seem. He was NOT giving them a license to condemn another. John 7 New Living Translation (NLT) 23 For if the correct time for circumcising your son falls on the Sabbath, you go ahead and do it so as not to break the law of Moses. So why should you be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? 24 Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly. John 7 King James Version (KJV) 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Jesus also said: Matthew 7 New Living Translation (NLT) 1 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. 3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 22:34:12 GMT -5
i suspect i stumped ya....right back at you.... Jesus was simply telling them they should judge fairly, judge with compassion and mercy, and consider that things are not always as they seem. He was NOT giving them a license to condemn another. John 7 New Living Translation (NLT) 23 For if the correct time for circumcising your son falls on the Sabbath, you go ahead and do it so as not to break the law of Moses. So why should you be angry with me for healing a man on the Sabbath? 24 Look beneath the surface so you can judge correctly. John 7 King James Version (KJV) 23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Jesus also said: Matthew 7 New Living Translation (NLT) 1 “Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. 2 For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged. 3 “And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? 4 How can you think of saying to your friend, ‘Let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. you would be wrong but then you know that...and i already said we are to judge righteously saying it back to me doesn't change one wit what i said or Jesus said or the intent thereof...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 23:32:28 GMT -5
You must decide whether you want to judge or understand them. I think it is better to try to understand them, they may have different ideas or beliefs than you, that may teach you something.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 0:15:37 GMT -5
You must decide whether you want to judge or understand them. of course, everything is a case by case situation...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 26, 2020 0:25:36 GMT -5
What do these words mean to "workers and friends"? I am asking this in regard to helping those in need both spiritually and naturally. What I have witnessed in my life time is those judged to be worthy of others help are helped. Those judged to not be worthy are judged harshly and gossiped about and left to fend for themselves. How is this morally or ethically right? For the "friends and workers" if they deem you are in a situation not of your own making then you might be worthy of their help. But if they perceive (not based on fact) you are in the situation of your own making you are not worthy. If you believe in the bible then you know no one is worthy of any forgiveness or salvation. Only the blood of Christ is covering for your sins. How can you judge anyone as being worthy or unworthy of your help? The one thing that I do not understand how you can claim to, profess to serve God, but turn your back on others in need because you judge them to be unworthy of your help. By helping those they deem worthy it seems to me they are trying to BUY their way into heaven. They help workers or high profile friends. Meanwhile their neighbor could be starving naturally or spiritually and they would not lift a finger. I had parents who were always there for others rich, poor, "professing" or "unprofessing". I have tried to help other no matter their situation. Being raised poor and feeling looked down on by most friends and some workers because we were poor and a large family has always made me very sensitive to this problem. when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... Galatians 6:1-10 1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.
4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else,
5 for each one should carry their own load.
6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Am I missing something?
Does anyone else see anything about "judging" someone else -let alone "judging righteously...?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 0:34:21 GMT -5
when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... Galatians 6:1-10 1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor. 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. repeating the verse i posted does nothing to change what i said...and is it not a good thing to tell someone when they have gone astray from God and the word? or is that evil?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 0:42:07 GMT -5
In the same way that someone says, "I'm not sexist, but [insert sexist comment]", I've heard the phrase "We can't judge them, but..."
I've also noticed that judgement, when I do it, is called "discernment"... funny how that works.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 0:47:40 GMT -5
when helping others always consider this verse of wisdom: Gal_6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.and if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously... Galatians 6:1-10 1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves.
4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else,
5 for each one should carry their own load.
6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. Am I missing something?
Does anyone else see anything about "judging" someone else -let alone "judging righteously...?"my first sentence is about helping others since the OP had some comments on helping others... my second sentence is directed at the thread title.... they are 2 separate comments about some slightly different things...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 26, 2020 1:10:14 GMT -5
Galatians 6:1-10 1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor. 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers. repeating the verse i posted does nothing to change what i said...and is it not a good thing to tell someone when they have gone astray from God and the word? or is that evil? I see, -but then Wally, after you quoted the first verse of Gal_6:1, - you did say "- if you read the rest of the judge not verses you'll find its not about judging its about judging righteously..."
But I didn't understand them to be "judging" others but rather it was about "helping" others.
|
|