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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 25, 2020 9:57:35 GMT -5
What is it that makes you believe that Paul is a trustworthy source in regards to whether or not Jesus rose from the dead? What outside sources to you have to confirm this? We have his co-workers Luke, John Mark and Paul's testimony and many of the epistles he left behind. People can read and decide if he was a trust worthy, and Christ/God chosen vessel to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. There were Barnabas who was a close co-worker of Paul. We also have the early church apostolic fathers (1-2 Century of apostles) written historical document testimony the Life of Paul and Barnabas.
I have the book of A dictionary of the early Christian beliefs: A reference guide to More than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers. By David Bercot
I know which countries Paul visited and preached before he was behead by Nero in Rome, 67. A.D.
Here’s the thing.. a comparative study of the ancient near east and the bible reveals a shared cultural and literary heritage. It also reveals many differences. In case of the resurrection, your going to need more than Luke, John, Mark, Paul and a book to lay down solid evidence for the resurrection.. Not only that, the resurrection goes against the laws of physics so your going to have to find a way to reconcile the laws of physics with a man ascending to the heavens, which there is also no solid argument or evidence for its existence either..
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 10:05:32 GMT -5
We have his co-workers Luke, John Mark and Paul's testimony and many of the epistles he left behind. People can read and decide if he was a trust worthy, and Christ/God chosen vessel to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. There were Barnabas who was a close co-worker of Paul. We also have the early church apostolic fathers (1-2 Century of apostles) written historical document testimony the Life of Paul and Barnabas.
I have the book of A dictionary of the early Christian beliefs: A reference guide to More than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers. By David Bercot
I know which countries Paul visited and preached before he was behead by Nero in Rome, 67. A.D.
Here’s the thing.. a comparative study of the ancient near east and the bible reveals a shared cultural and literary heritage. It also reveals many differences. In case of the resurrection, your going to need more than Luke, John, Mark, Paul and a book to lay down solid evidence for the resurrection.. Not only that, the resurrection goes against the laws of physics so your going to have to find a way to reconcile the laws of physics with a man ascending to the heavens, which there is also no solid argument or evidence for its existence either.. You need to get your hands on the book: A dictionary of the early Christian beliefs: A reference guide to More than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers. By David Bercot… it will open your eyes on many topics of the apostles and the early church 1-4th century teachings of Jesus and His followers.
There are 5 pages writings of the early church fathers on Jesus own resurrection... When I have time I will post some of their writings.
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 25, 2020 10:10:12 GMT -5
Here’s the thing.. a comparative study of the ancient near east and the bible reveals a shared cultural and literary heritage. It also reveals many differences. In case of the resurrection, your going to need more than Luke, John, Mark, Paul and a book to lay down solid evidence for the resurrection.. Not only that, the resurrection goes against the laws of physics so your going to have to find a way to reconcile the laws of physics with a man ascending to the heavens, which there is also no solid argument or evidence for its existence either.. You need to get your hands on the book: A dictionary of the early Christian beliefs: A reference guide to More than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers. By David Bercot… it will open your eyes on many topics of the apostles and the early church 1-4th century teachings of Jesus and His followers.
There are 5 pages writings of the early church fathers on Jesus own resurrection... When I have time I will post some of their writings.
What made you trust David Bercot? I had a look at his credentials, or lack thereof..
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Post by intelchips on Mar 25, 2020 10:12:25 GMT -5
Let me save you the trouble Nathan.
"The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven" (Apol. 2).
Aristides makes it clear that Christians affirm a number of key truths:
1. The divinity of Jesus: “God came down from heaven…” In the mind of Aristides, Jesus is not an angel, or a semi-divine being, but the very God of heaven itself.
2. The incarnation: “clothed himself with flesh.” In very vivid language, the author affirms that Jesus is God enfleshed; he took upon himself a real human body (contra the Docetists).
3. The virgin birth: “from a Hebrew virgin.” This doctrine flows naturally from the prior two. If Jesus is God, and he took on human flesh, then his conception would be distinctive from other human beings.
4. The authority of the Gospels: “taught in the gospel…and you also if you read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it.” Notice for Aristides, there are books called a “gospel” which you can “read” to learn more about the person of Jesus. Moreover, these gospels contain a certain “power” which the reader can discern.
5. The authority of the apostles: “and he had twelve disciples.” Aristides recognizes that Jesus had an authority structure through the twelve that was necessary “so that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished.”
6. His death on the cross: “pierced by the Jews.” This is a clear reference to Jesus’ crucifixion under Pontius Pilate at the request of the Jewish leadership.
7. His resurrection: “after three days he rose.” Jesus did not stay in the grave but was raised from the dead.
8. His ascension: “ascended into heaven.” Jesus returned to his former heavenly home, in a position of power and glory.
This is a surprisingly thorough and wide-ranging summary of core Christian doctrines at a very early point in the life of the church. And it was this form of Christianity that was publicly presented to the Emperor. Once again, we can see that core Christian beliefs were not latecomers that were invented in the fourth century (or later), but appear to have been in place from the very beginning.
Thus here we have Aristides, a converted Athenian philosopher, writing an apology to emperor Hadrian around 125 A.D. That's one and a quarter centuries later then the facts with not a single eye witness mentioned. Well, I guess that's proof enough then end of discussion.
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 10:34:46 GMT -5
You need to get your hands on the book: A dictionary of the early Christian beliefs: A reference guide to More than 700 topics discussed by the early church fathers. By David Bercot… it will open your eyes on many topics of the apostles and the early church 1-4th century teachings of Jesus and His followers.
There are 5 pages writings of the early church fathers on Jesus own resurrection... When I have time I will post some of their writings.
What made you trust David Bercot? I had a look at his credentials, or lack thereof.. He just record of the early church fathers writings and teachings: Every believer must have this book, it helps them to understand the 1-4th century early days teachings before the RCC in the 4th century and onward corrupted the simplicity teachings of Jesus Christ.
1) Clement of Rome 96 A.D. " There will be future resurrection." 2) Polycarp 135 A.D. "I will you thanks that I can a part in the RESURRECTION of Eternal life, both of the soul and body. If we please Him, in this present world. For Jesus has promised to us that He will RAISE us again from the dead. 3) Tertullian 207 A.D. " After that they marry no more, but in their risen life are equal to the angels. They are NOT to marry because they are NOT to die. Rather, they are destined to pas into the angelic state by putting on the garment of incorruption, with a change in the substance that is RESTORED to life. Before we put off the garment of the flesh, we wish to be clothed with the celestial glory of IMMORTALITY."
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 10:42:06 GMT -5
After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias.
The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers
Apostolic Fathers' Writings
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age.
Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church.
Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death.
Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness.
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them.
Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation.
Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city.
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Post by Grant on Mar 25, 2020 13:54:39 GMT -5
After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias. The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers Apostolic Fathers' Writings
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age. Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church. Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them. Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation. Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city. So these men were part of the Catholic Church or Waldensians? I'll answer my own question. They were not Waldensians. Justin Martyr for example was venerated by the Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox churches so wonder why you are using these men as examples given your beliefs Nathan.
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Post by nathan on Mar 25, 2020 14:35:30 GMT -5
After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias. The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers Apostolic Fathers' Writings
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age. Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church. Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them. Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation. Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city. So these men were part of the Catholic Church or Waldensians? I'll answer my own question. They were not Waldensians. Justin Martyr for example was venerated by the Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox churches so wonder why you are using these men as examples given your beliefs Nathan. They were part of Paul's own followers or converts from Rome when he was there as a prisoner in 60 A.D. in the 4th century were KNOWN as the Vaudois and the majority of them became RCC in the 4th century.
Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182.
The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors. These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century.
I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
From: The Heroic of Men & Women for religion of Jesus Christ by James D. McCabe. (1881)
The Valleys of Piedmont: Within this little areas, scarcely larger than the District of Columbia, USA. Has existed from remote times a peculiar race of people, rarely numbering more than 20,000. The have retained their primitive appearance and manners to a greater degree than almost any other European community. They have always been noted for the simplicity and purity of their lives, and their absolute freedom from the ignorance, superstition, and vice which have cursed the countries around them. The men are tall, well made, graceful in action, vigorous and hardly. The women are fair, endowed with a native grace and refinement, and have always been noted for their chastity and modest deportment. Both sexes are frank, hospitable, peaceful, and forbearing in disposition. Soon after the introduction of Christianity into Italy by the Apostles, the people of these valleys became converts to the faith preached by Paul the apostle. They accepted and taught the doctrines of the Apostles, and practiced the simple rites or usages as described by Justin or Tellurian. They acknowledge the Holy Scriptures as their sole rule of faith, and rejected all that was not taught in the books of the New Testament.
From the days of Constantine (the Roman Emperor who became a Christian) to the present time, they have never changed their faith, and have never altered in any important particular their religious observances. The Vaudois themselves called themselves only by the name of Christians. They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, to wit, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor. They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Old man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ. The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare.
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Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 18:38:35 GMT -5
Excellent Wally, I am pleased to see that you have finally realized that the bible is a fabricated fairy tale. Don't waste your time on it. Don't die for a lie. i did not say that...nice try though Umm you may not have meant to, but yes you did. You basically said that Jesus was a fictional character.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 18:41:59 GMT -5
i did not say that...nice try though Umm you may not have meant to, but yes you did. You basically said that Jesus was a fictional character. that might be your interpretation but those words never left my mouth nor are in the text i wrote....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 25, 2020 18:59:34 GMT -5
Umm you may not have meant to, but yes you did. You basically said that Jesus was a fictional character. that might be your interpretation but those words never left my mouth nor are in the text i wrote.... You need Virgs to proof read your posts before you post.
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 25, 2020 19:00:54 GMT -5
This isn’t even your thread so back off and stop being such a control freak. It’s not a good look. I don’t care what visitors think of me anyways, so your not kidding anyone except yourself. Grow up. Awwwwww I nowwwwww - I have been backing off all along, deleting each as I go so as not to appear in competition for second most frequent poster on this thread, but ant_rotten pulled the grossly ignorant anti-Christian bias on a good Bible teacher over n over n over - so look who needs to "back off." And, oh ya, the stuff tried next is the old "control freak" suggestion against gratu - just more pot calling the kettle black good old 2x2 type ad hominem. It looks like all ant_rotten's got is cheap ad hominem. So I guess I should try the control freak thing for size - maybe just once - huh: Get Off Of My Cloud www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUDMzhlefMsWho is this good bible teacher you speak of?
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Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 19:08:19 GMT -5
Umm you may not have meant to, but yes you did. You basically said that Jesus was a fictional character. that might be your interpretation but those words never left my mouth nor are in the text i wrote.... Yes that was my interpretation. Here is what you were saying was a lie and Hitler was a real person Most people aren't willing to die for a lie, in fact most people aren't willing to die for the truth.. Peter, Paul, Matthew, Thomas, Andrew, etc, were all killed. That's what speaks to me, I don't think these men would have suffered horrible deaths to uphold a fictional character or a fabricated fairy tale. A person would probably denounce something even if it were true in order to save their own life. But the apostles had a conviction that surpassed the value they may have put on their own lives, and their willingness to suffer death is the best evidence that the One they followed was real. So tell me how else your answer could be interpreted. Dan said people died because it was the truth. Basically, by saying that Hitler was a real person not a lie, you said that what Dan was referring to was fictional. Just saying.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:12:01 GMT -5
that might be your interpretation but those words never left my mouth nor are in the text i wrote.... Yes that was my interpretation. Here is what you were saying was a lie and Hitler was a real person Most people aren't willing to die for a lie, in fact most people aren't willing to die for the truth.. Peter, Paul, Matthew, Thomas, Andrew, etc, were all killed. That's what speaks to me, I don't think these men would have suffered horrible deaths to uphold a fictional character or a fabricated fairy tale. A person would probably denounce something even if it were true in order to save their own life. But the apostles had a conviction that surpassed the value they may have put on their own lives, and their willingness to suffer death is the best evidence that the One they followed was real. So tell me how else your answer could be interpreted. Dan said people died because it was the truth. Basically, by saying that Hitler was a real person not a lie, you said that what Dan was referring to was fictional. Just saying. i have to ask then(if thats your interpretation) do you really believe i believe(after 6 years of being on here) that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales? be honest now....
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Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 19:14:54 GMT -5
Yes that was my interpretation. Here is what you were saying was a lie and Hitler was a real person Most people aren't willing to die for a lie, in fact most people aren't willing to die for the truth.. Peter, Paul, Matthew, Thomas, Andrew, etc, were all killed. That's what speaks to me, I don't think these men would have suffered horrible deaths to uphold a fictional character or a fabricated fairy tale. A person would probably denounce something even if it were true in order to save their own life. But the apostles had a conviction that surpassed the value they may have put on their own lives, and their willingness to suffer death is the best evidence that the One they followed was real. So tell me how else your answer could be interpreted. Dan said people died because it was the truth. Basically, by saying that Hitler was a real person not a lie, you said that what Dan was referring to was fictional. Just saying. i have to ask then(if thats your interpretation) do you really believe i believe(after 6 years of being on here) that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales? be honest now.... No I don't believe you believe that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales. Absolutely not. But that post definitely could be and was interpreted that way.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 19:19:10 GMT -5
i have to ask then(if thats your interpretation) do you really believe i believe(after 6 years of being on here) that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales? be honest now.... No I don't believe you believe that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales. Absolutely not. But that post definitely could be and was interpreted that way. deductive reasoning should have then lead you to i was just talking about hitler....not Christ or the bible
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Post by snow on Mar 25, 2020 19:23:05 GMT -5
No I don't believe you believe that Jesus and the bible are fairy tales. Absolutely not. But that post definitely could be and was interpreted that way. deductive reasoning should have then lead you to i was just talking about hitler....not Christ or the bible So you're saying Hitler was a lie? Now I'm really confused.
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Post by nathan on Mar 26, 2020 0:56:38 GMT -5
Of cause Bart believed Jesus was a real person. So do I! Where we don’t agree with you is what happened after his death.. that Jesus rose from the dead an ascended to heaven.. that’s the fantasy part, which people were still willing to die over.. Jesus raised from the dead and went back to the place which he came from heaven was NO FANTASY! or a MYTH at all.
Paul answered your question again that he SAW the resurrected Christ/Jesus so, he was one of 500 His followers that saw HIM in the NEW resurrection body! After God had raised Him from Hades/Realm of the dead in I Cor. 15:1-12
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
I Cor. 15:14-28 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
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Post by Dan on Mar 26, 2020 0:57:38 GMT -5
That was my point, Hitler was a real person so Germans did not fight and die for a myth.. Neither did the apostles. Of course, a notable difference is that Hitler was a liar and evil, while Christ was truthful & good.
There is another notable difference. While hitler was a real man, “Christ” wasn’t. The resurrection is a myth even though people were willing to die for it.
You can't possibly know that Christ wasn't real.. Nonbelievers always demand factual evidence, but then proceed to make statements of fact without any evidence to substantiate it.. Quite a conundrum.
I suspect that if Hitler did what he did 2000 years ago and all we had was a written record of him, Atheist would claim Hitler wasn't real either?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 0:57:43 GMT -5
deductive reasoning should have then lead you to i was just talking about hitler....not Christ or the bible So you're saying Hitler was a lie? Now I'm really confused. yes you are...go back and re-read my posts for further clarification....
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 26, 2020 1:07:07 GMT -5
There is another notable difference. While hitler was a real man, “Christ” wasn’t. The resurrection is a myth even though people were willing to die for it.
You can't possibly know that Christ wasn't real.. Nonbelievers always demand factual evidence, but then proceed to make statements of fact without any evidence to substantiate it.. Quite a conundrum.
I suspect that if Hitler did what he did 2000 years ago and all we had was a written record of him, Atheist would claim Hitler wasn't real either?
No one had claimed Hitler had risen from the dead. So your comparison means nothing. I believe Jesus was a man, but that’s it. You can’t possibly know Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven either, let alone claim to have a relationship with him..
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Post by nathan on Mar 26, 2020 1:10:46 GMT -5
You can't possibly know that Christ wasn't real.. Nonbelievers always demand factual evidence, but then proceed to make statements of fact without any evidence to substantiate it.. Quite a conundrum.
I suspect that if Hitler did what he did 2000 years ago and all we had was a written record of him, Atheist would claim Hitler wasn't real either?
No one had claimed Hitler had risen from the dead. So your comparison means nothing. I believe Jesus was a man, but that’s it. You can’t possibly know Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven either, let alone claim to have a relationship with him.. What does it matter to you, whether Jesus was raised from the dead and went back to heaven or NOT? Are you going to believe and become Jesus follower? If you don't plan to become Jesus follower then Why, do you need to KNOW these things.
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 26, 2020 1:14:27 GMT -5
No one had claimed Hitler had risen from the dead. So your comparison means nothing. I believe Jesus was a man, but that’s it. You can’t possibly know Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven either, let alone claim to have a relationship with him.. What does it matter to you, whether Jesus was raised from the dead and went back to heaven or NOT? Are you going to believe and become Jesus follower? If you don't plan to become Jesus follower then Why, do you need to KNOW these things.It’s called having a conversation Nathan, i was responding to a post that was directed at ME. Is that ok with you? Good.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2020 1:36:41 GMT -5
There is another notable difference. While hitler was a real man, “Christ” wasn’t. The resurrection is a myth even though people were willing to die for it.
You can't possibly know that Christ wasn't real.. Nonbelievers always demand factual evidence, but then proceed to make statements of fact without any evidence to substantiate it.. Quite a conundrum.
I suspect that if Hitler did what he did 2000 years ago and all we had was a written record of him, Atheist would claim Hitler wasn't real either?
There were people 2000 years ago that left loads on record that is believable. The Romans for instance, in their movements around Europe. It's all recorded and there is the archaeological record as well. The Pharoahs left loads of information and archaeological stuff. All believable. Do you doubt those? Your last statement shows to me that you really don't want to understand history unless it's in the bible and you do not have an understanding of what constitutes evidence.
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Post by Dan on Mar 26, 2020 1:54:21 GMT -5
You can't possibly know that Christ wasn't real.. Nonbelievers always demand factual evidence, but then proceed to make statements of fact without any evidence to substantiate it.. Quite a conundrum.
I suspect that if Hitler did what he did 2000 years ago and all we had was a written record of him, Atheist would claim Hitler wasn't real either?
There were people 2000 years ago that left loads on record that is believable. The Romans for instance, in their movements around Europe. It's all recorded and there is the archaeological record as well. The Pharoahs left loads of information and archaeological stuff. All believable. Do you doubt those? Your last statement shows to me that you really don't want to understand history unless it's in the bible and you do not have an understanding of what constitutes evidence.
Your comparing countries and governments to a peasant from Judea, so of course there's historical evidence and records. I suspect if all the miracles were removed from the gospels, you might believe Christ existed, but since you can't believe the miracles, you can't believe the person who performed them was real? But then, Paul wrote several letters himself, but I doubt you believe he existed either? But why would a person other than Paul write all those letters and assign the works to an imaginary author named Paul? What was this phantom authors objective?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 26, 2020 3:26:24 GMT -5
There were people 2000 years ago that left loads on record that is believable. The Romans for instance, in their movements around Europe. It's all recorded and there is the archaeological record as well. The Pharoahs left loads of information and archaeological stuff. All believable. Do you doubt those? Your last statement shows to me that you really don't want to understand history unless it's in the bible and you do not have an understanding of what constitutes evidence.
Your comparing countries and governments to a peasant from Judea, so of course there's historical evidence and records. I suspect if all the miracles were removed from the gospels, you might believe Christ existed, but since you can't believe the miracles, you can't believe the person who performed them was real? But then, Paul wrote several letters himself, but I doubt you believe he existed either? But why would a person other than Paul write all those letters and assign the works to an imaginary author named Paul? What was this phantom authors objective?
My disbelief starts in the first chapter of the bible. Everything after that confirms my disbelief.
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Post by nathan on Mar 26, 2020 6:10:54 GMT -5
What does it matter to you, whether Jesus was raised from the dead and went back to heaven or NOT? Are you going to believe and become Jesus follower? If you don't plan to become Jesus follower then Why, do you need to KNOW these things. It’s called having a conversation Nathan, i was responding to a post that was directed at ME. Is that ok with you? Good. Let me ask you again, do you think you will ever become a follower of Jesus?
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 26, 2020 6:22:11 GMT -5
It’s called having a conversation Nathan, i was responding to a post that was directed at ME. Is that ok with you? Good. Let me ask you again, do you think you will ever become a follower of Jesus? Your question is of no relevance to the post that was addressed to me by Dan, to which I have already responded. Carry on.
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