|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:54:32 GMT -5
Jack T. Carroll (2x2 worker 1900s) : San Diego, convention 1951.
Old Test. Passover Feast vs. New Test. Christ the Passover Lamb of God.
(Colossians 2:16,17) Let no man therefore judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a Shadow of the things, which are to come; the Reality however, is found in Christ. (I Cor. 6:7) ... For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. (Exodus 12) They gave the name of Passover to the feast which was established in commemoration of the coming forth Out of Egypt, because the night before their departure, the destroying angel, who Slew the Firstborn of the Egyptians, passed over Israelites, who were marked (on the top and sides of the door frame of the house) with the Blood of the Lamb which was Killed the evening before; and which for this reason was called the Pascal lamb. There is a very close connection between the Old Testament Passover and the New Testament Breaking of Bread. It would be a very helpful study to read (Exodus 12 and Luke 22) and other portions of scripture and have this Fact established firmly in our minds that there is a close connection between the First Passover Feast and First New Testament Breaking of Bread. Special study: Old Testament Passover Feast/New Test. Breaking of Bread. 1. Old Testament Preparation: (Exodus 12:1-13) Each man to take a Lamb for his family, one for each HOUSE. The Sheep you choose must be Year Old males Without Defects. They are to take some blood and put it on the sides and tops of the door frames of the Houses, where they eat the Lambs...It is the Lord's Passover. ~~ New Testament Passover. Preparation: (I Cor 5: 6-8) Christ is our Passover Lamb, which have been sacrificed for us. 2. Old Testament Feast: Place (Exodus 12: 3) The Passover Lamb was to be eaten in the HOMES of the Israelites. ~~ New Testament Passover: Place. (Luke 22:7-13) Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John saying, "Go and make preparation for us to eat the Passover, as you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water fill of water will meet you. Follow him to his HOUSE ...and He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there." 3. Old Testament Feast: Number of people to be gathered. (Exodus 12:1-4) Each man to take a lamb for his family, one for each Household. If any household is too small for the whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the Number of people there are. ~~ New Testament Passover: Number of people to be gathered. (Matthew 18:20) Jesus said, "For where two or three come together in my name, there Am I with them." (I Cor. 14:23-40) If therefore the whole church come together into ONE place.... How it is then, brethren? when you come together, Every One! of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue (language) has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 4. Old Testament Feast: Time. (Exodus 12:18) In the first month you are to eat bread made without Yeast, from the evening of the 14th day until the evening of the 21st day. ~~ New Testament Passover: Day. (John 20:19-20) On the evening of that First day of the week, the disciples were together; with the door locked...Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace is with you." (Acts 2:1) When the day of Pentecost. First day of the week, they were all with one accord in one place. And they were filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:41-42,46) The Apostles and new 3000 converts they continued steadfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in Breaking of bread, and in Prayers... breaking bread from house to house. (Acts 20:7) On the First day of the Week We came together to Break Bread, Paul preached unto them. (I Cor.16: 2) Upon the First day of the Week let every one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping in his income, saving up (a collection for the Poor Saints in Jerusalem), so that no collections will be made when I come. (I Cor. 16:19) Aquila and Pricilla greet you warmly in the Lord, so does the church that meets at their HOUSE!. (Colossians 4: 15) Nymphas, and the church is in her House! (Philemon 2) Our beloved Apphia, to the church in thy House!. (Revelation 1:9,10) I, John (95 A.D.) was on the island called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as saying, "I am Alpha and Omega the First and Last. What you see write it in a book, and send it to the seven (7) churches in Asia minor (Now is Turkey)". ~~ Apostolic fathers writings: Eucharist celebrated on Sunday!
~ Justin Martyr (160 A.D.) On the day called Sunday! all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one Place. And the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, the leader verbally instructs us and exhorts us to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray when our prayer is ended, Bread and Wine are brought. Then the leader offers prayers and thanksgivings according to his ability then, the Euchrarist is distributed to everyone, and everyone participates in that over which thanks have been given. Let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist but those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord. No one is allowed to partake of it but the one who believes that the things which we TEACH are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the Remission of sin, and unto regeneration, and who is living as Christ has commanded. It is called Eucharist because it is an action of thanksgiving to God. The Greek word Eucharistein and Eulogein recalled the Jewish blessings, that proclaim especially during a meal---- God's works: creation, redemption, and sanctification. The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover. It was on "the First day of the Week," Sunday! the day of the Jesus' resurrection, that the Christians met "to break bread." From that time on down to our own day the celebration of the Eucharist has been continued so that today we encounter it everywhere in the Church with the same fundamental structure. It remains the Center! of the Church life. 5. Old Testament Feast: Purpose. (Exodus 12:14) God said "This is a day you are to Commemorate for the generation to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord a Lasting Ordinance". ~~ New Testament Passover: Purpose. (Luke 22:19-20) Jesus took Bread, gave thanks and said, "This is my body given for you; do this in Remembrance of ME. This is the Cup in the New Testament which is my Blood, which is poured out for you." (I Cor.11: 22-26) For whenever you eat this Bread and Drink this cup. You drink it, in Remembrance of Me! You Proclaim the Lord's Death Until He Comes Again. (Luke 22: 15-18) Jesus said to his disciples saying, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it Finds Fulfillment in the kingdom of God." The Purpose of the Lord's Supper was intended to declare the Death, Resurrection, and Second Coming of Christ. For as Often! as ye eat this Bread and Drink this Cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He comes. (I Cor.11: 26). The Bible also commanded us to assemble with the Saints. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Heb.10: 25). Therefore, the first day of the week is the time to partake of the Bread and Wine NOT just once a month, or three times or four times a year. The Bread and Wine is an important part of our Worship to the Father, remembrance of Christ's Sacrificed for us. (I John1: 7) If we walk in the Light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with One Another, the Blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL Sin. Jesus, in connection with the Passover Meal, first celebrated the Lord's Supper. The Cup is a Symbol of the New Covenant in Jesus blood. The Old Covenant was the Mosaic covenant; (Exodus 24:3-8) by the use of this covenant sign God signifies his approval of salvation upon his people; sealed and paid for by the shedding of Jesus' blood. The broken bread is Symbol of Christ's body given for Sinners (Luke 22: 19). As the Feast of Passover was a commemorative meal (Exodus 12:14), so also the Lord's Supper is a memorial supper, recalling and portraying Christ's death for sinners. In Old Testament days there were regular gatherings of God's people, as we know, were the annual feasts, the feast of the Passover, the feast of Pentecost, and the feast of tabernacle. They came from the north, south; east and west traveled many miles to reach Jerusalem to keep these feasts. The main purpose of which these annual feasts were to unite widely scattered people of God in one fellowship. There are regular gathering of God's people mentioned in the New Testament and also special gatherings in edifying, and have fellowship each other in the Lord.Here are two fundamentals of the "faith of Jesus" from which we dare not to depart. The First is "the Preacher without a home," and the Second, "the Church meet in the homes to partake of the Lord's Supper (bread and the wine). " One of the first conditions of those who think of entering Jesus' ministry is willingness to have fellowship with Jesus, the homeless son of Man. Jesus said, "Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20). There have been men and women who have voluntarily made themselves homeless for the gospel's sake in order that they might have fellowship with Jesus in His homelessness as the Pattern Sent One, the pattern minister of the gospel. The Second fundamental is "the church meet in the home to partake the Lord's Supper (Bread and Wine)". The early Christians met the first day of the week in little groups to worship God in spirit and in truth. Jesus said, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the TRUE worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: And they worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23,24) When in Rome some years ago, we planned to visit one of the oldest churches in that city. We found that the present structure was 16 feet below the level of the street. The foundation of this church was built on the foundation of another Church still older, and that second Church was built on the foundation of a Private Home. When we entered into this home, which had been excavated, the floor of one of the rooms had been preserved marvelously. The Franciscan priests that were our guide told us that way back in those first New Testament days the Church met for worship in this time. He said this home is believed to be home of Pudens whom we read about in (II Timothy 4:21). The point I wish to make is that this Catholic priest told us that in this home, believed to be home the home of Pudens, the early church met for Worship in the Room that we were then standing in. Some years ago in the city of Vancouver, the Church of England put on a Palestine exhibition to raise money for their missionaries. I attended a lecture on the Passover and listened to the speaker explain clearly and scriptural he invited some come forward and asks any questions in connection with the Passover Feast. I asked if the Passover feast was established in the homes of the children of Israelites and never celebrated anywhere else? He replied, "That is true, and even to this day the Jews keep the Passover Feast not in their Synagogues or in their temple but in their homes." I asked him then, "What is the connection between the Old Test. Passover Feast and the New Test. Breaking of Bread established?" He said, "In a private home in Jerusalem, later they broke bread from house to house." I asked, "When did they cease to break bread in homes?" He replied, "I cannot tell you, neither can I justify the Church taking the communion service out of the homes of the people of God and placing them it in the hand of a priest in a public building." I then asked, " Would it be a good thing to take the Breaking of Bread back to where the Lord, Jesus established it?" He replied, " It would be revolutionary, it would turn the world upside-down!" and hurried away. (JTC, 1951) web.archive.org/web/20150903024558/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com:80/thread/175/church-buildings-home-meetings
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2020 16:55:18 GMT -5
Isn’t there a difference between temple and synagogues? Yes, it's a bit like Convention tent and home meetings. The reason I asked the scripture quoted said “synagogue “ and the refute was about teaching in the “temple”?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 16:56:02 GMT -5
But if it is hidden nobody would find it.
adjective: hidden kept out of sight; concealed.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 16:59:09 GMT -5
Please keep cat's out of it. I lost my dear Tigs recently through tragic circumstances. All I am left with now is RT's avatar which is the spitting image of Tigs. Good point about the Skafflix though! Surely there’s kittens needing homes around? I’ve been wanting a pet but they’ve tightened city laws around here even for cats so that means increased vet and training costs. Thanks Shaz, but Tigs adopted me. She got things right. If I chose a cat, I would likely get the wrong one.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:59:53 GMT -5
By Howard A. Snyder, Dean of the Free Methodist Theological Seminary in Sao Paulo, Brazil. March, 1972 Are church buildings a help, or a hindrance in the spread of Christianity?
If you had asked, "Where is the church?" In any important city of the ancient world where Christianity had penetrated in the first century, you would have been directed to a group of worshiping people gathered in a house. There was no special building or other tangible wealth with which to associate' church only people'! So wrote the late Walter Oetting in a significant little book " The church of the Catacombs". Christians did not begin to build church buildings until about 200 A.D. This fact suggests that, whatever else church buildings may be useful for; they are not essential either for numerical growth, or spiritual depth. The early church possessed both these qualities, and the churches greatest period of vitality and growth were during the first two centuries A.D. In other words, the church grew fastest when it did not have the help or hindrance, of church buildings. But, if it is really true that church buildings are not essential either for growth or spirituality, why do churches today depend so heavily on buildings? Is it true that the church suffers from an edifice complex?
~~~ A Witness to Our IMMOBILITY. Church buildings attest to five facts about our church today. First, church buildings are a witness to our immobility. What is more immovable than a church building? And yet Christians are supposedly wayfaring pilgrims. Christians are supposed to be a mobile people. The Gospel says, "Go", but our church buildings say, "stay". The Gospel says, "seek the lost", but our structures say, " Let the lost seek the church".
~~~ A Witness to our INFLEXIBILITY. Secondly, church buildings are a witness to our inflexibility. Once the building is up, and in use, the church program is largely determined. The Sunday morning service allows for the direct participation of only a few dictated by the sanctuary layout. The problem at heart is not one of poor planning. It is a matter of the inherent limitations of church buildings. Buildings are, by nature, inflexible. They are inflexible, and they encourage inflexibility,---or worse----stagnation.
~~~ A Witness to our Lack of FELLOWSHIP. Third, church buildings are a witness to our lack of fellowship. Church buildings may be worshipful places, but usually they are not friendly places. They are uncomfortable and impersonal. Church buildings are not made for fellowship, for "Koinonia" in the biblical sense. They are made for worship, and worship without fellowship becomes something cold, and divorced from mundane reality. In probably 90% of all church buildings the sanctuary seating consists of wooden pews arranged in rows, and fastened securely to the floor. The pews are arranged to make it nearly impossible for a worshiper to see the face of any other worshiper. It is as though the ideal is to isolate each worshiper in his own private booth, so he could see only the face of the minister, and not be distracted by others present!! But, if we are to worship the Lord together we must be able to see each other. Many congregations are sensing this lack of fellowship in the churches, and so are building new structures called a "Fellowship Hall". Real Biblical Christian fellowship, such as experienced by the early Christian, is lacking in most churches today. And so a stranger may attend a Christian church for weeks and never encounter the warm, winsome fellowship that draws a person to Christ. Such a situation would have been impossible in the early church.
~~~ A Witness to our PRIDE. Fourth, church buildings are a witness to our pride. We insist that our church buildings must be beautiful, and well appointed---which usually means expensive. We justify this on the basis that God deserves the best. But such thinking may be little more than the rationalizing of our pride. We might also say that we are ambassadors for the King of Kings, but this does not justify spending vast resources to build embassies. We may forget that our King is at war, and we are called to be His soldiers. We may, for instance feel that we need beautiful buildings in order to draw sinners to the church, and thus to Christ. But, two things are wrong here. First, the concept is wrong. The church is to seek the sinner, not Vice Versa. Second, the motivation is wrong. We try to attract sinners by appealing to pride, which Christ never does. We say that our church buildings must be in harmony----in style and value with architecture of the community. But, this may be only a brand of conform to the world. A Gospel with New Testament dynamics does not need the appeal of an attractive building. In fact, a fine church structure may simply attract the Pharisees, and repel the poor. That has, after all, happened in church history.
~~~ A Witness to our Class DIVISIONS. Finally church buildings are a witness to our class divisions. The early church was composed of rich and poor, Jew and Greek, black and white, ignorant and educated. But our modern church buildings advertise to the world that this is not so today. The new family in the community goes for a drive, and looks over the church buildings. They choose the one that looks like " their kind "-----one that would contain people of approximately the same income, education and color as themselves. The fault lies deeper than mere architecture. But, the building is a witness. It is a signpost telling the world of the church's class-consciousness and exclusiveness. What then should be done? Should we abandon the use of church structures? This is precisely what I suggest. A different kind of structure is not enough. Remember, during its most vital 150 years, the Christian Church had no church buildings. In those days it was mobile, flexible, humble, inclusive-------and growing rapidly.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 17:00:49 GMT -5
Yes, it's a bit like Convention tent and home meetings. The reason I asked the scripture quoted said “synagogue “ and the refute was about teaching in the “temple”? There was only one Temple. However, synagogues, lesser places of worship were everywhere.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 17:01:07 GMT -5
Yes, it's a bit like Convention tent and home meetings. The reason I asked the scripture quoted said “synagogue “ and the refute was about teaching in the “temple”? Jesus and the apostles taught in the temple court yards NOT in the Temple. ONLY the Levitical priests and high priests were allowed to enter the temple. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah NOT a priesthood tribe.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Mar 8, 2020 17:13:03 GMT -5
The format did change in Calgary and elsewhere I suspect . You didn’t have to kneel to pray anymore !
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:14:47 GMT -5
You're on! I Chronicles 1. Gimme some meaning! Bring it! Spiritualize! I'm looking forward to some spiritual contributions from those who say it's our attitude to the study that is the problem. 1 Chronicles 1 1 Adam, Sheth, Enosh, 2 Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered, 3 Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech, 4 Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 5 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 6 And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 7 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 8 The sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 9 And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabta, and Raamah, and Sabtecha. And the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. 10 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be mighty upon the earth. 11 And Mizraim begat Ludim, and Anamim, and Lehabim, and Naphtuhim, 12 And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (of whom came the Philistines,) and Caphthorim. 13 And Canaan begat Zidon his firstborn, and Heth, 14 The Jebusite also, and the Amorite, and the Girgash-e, 15 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, 16 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. 17 The sons of Shem; Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram, and Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Meshech. 18 And Arphaxad begat Shelah, and Shelah begat Eber. 19 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother's name was Joktan. 20 And Joktan begat Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, 21 Hadoram also, and Uzal, and Diklah, 22 And Ebal, and Abimael, and Sheba, 23 And Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab. All these were the sons of Joktan. 24 Shem, Arphaxad, Shelah, 25 Eber, Peleg, Reu, 26 Serug, Nahor, Terah, 27 Abram; the same is Abraham. 28 The sons of Abraham; Isaac, and Ishmael. 29 These are their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebaioth; then Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, 30 Mishma, and Dumah, Massa, Hadad, and Tema, 31 Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah. These are the sons of Ishmael. 32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan. 33 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah. 34 And Abraham begat Isaac. The sons of Isaac; Esau and Israel. 35 The sons of Esau; Eliphaz, Reuel, and Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah. 36 The sons of Eliphaz; Teman, and Omar, Zephi, and Gatam, Kenaz, and Timna, and Amalek. 37 The sons of Reuel; Nahath, Zerah, Shammah, and Mizzah. 38 And the sons of Seir; Lotan, and Shobal, and Zibeon, and Anah, and Dishon, and Ezar, and Dishan. 39 And the sons of Lotan; Hori, and Homam: and Timna was Lotan's sister. 40 The sons of Shobal; Alian, and Manahath, and Ebal, Shephi, and Onam. and the sons of Zibeon; Aiah, and Anah. 41 The sons of Anah; Dishon. And the sons of Dishon; Amram, and Eshban, and Ithran, and Cheran. 42 The sons of Ezer; Bilhan, and Zavan, and Jakan. The sons of Dishan; Uz, and Aran. 43 Now these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the children of Israel; Bela the son of Beor: and the name of his city was Dinhabah. 44 And when Bela was dead, Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead. 45 And when Jobab was dead, Husham of the land of the Temanites reigned in his stead. 46 And when Husham was dead, Hadad the son of Bedad, which smote Midian in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith. 47 And when Hadad was dead, Samlah of Masrekah reigned in his stead. 48 And when Samlah was dead, Shaul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead. 49 And when Shaul was dead, Baalhanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead. 50 And when Baalhanan was dead, Hadad reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Pai; and his wife's name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab. 51 Hadad died also. And the dukes of Edom were; duke Timnah, duke Aliah, duke Jetheth, 52 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon, 53 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar, 54 Duke Magdiel, duke Iram. These are the dukes of Edom. That's a lot of begatting. As a child of 8 who probably didn't know what begatting even meant I might have said something really silly like I would just like to begat better in the coming days. Of course people would try hard not to laugh and think it was cute, when I was 8...
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:19:22 GMT -5
And one more thing... abraham offered up his son issac as a precursor sacrifice to the coming Christ...an example of we not having to die for our sins and God picking the sacrifice instead with Jesus Christ/the ram... A god that would command someone to kill their innocent son is not a god to be worshiped. And lets not forget that he not only asked Abraham to kill his son, as a test Christians would say, but he was also a God that killed his own son at a later date down the road. This is not a god I could worship at 12, I just don't know how people think it's a good thing to worship any entity that does what the Yahweh did.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:22:54 GMT -5
In a sense, the obscurity is a type of mysticism encouraged by workers historically – it has always depicted the presence of a “spirit” (small case) that is necessary to even understand the workers' messages (sermons). And THAT provides the common membership the 'elite' airs, as if 2x2ism is ALONE in having such a 'unique' “spirit” supposedly in control of it. And THAT might give you yet another clue as to why few 2x2s have ever wondered or questioned the format of their "Fellowship Meetings.” Gratu, interesting what you have said. Very clever strategy to instill the idea that you had to be "In the Spirit" to have any understanding. Gave the Workers complete control almost like hypnotism. Helps me to understand how many of us with strong minds did not fall under that spell. But isn't that the exact same thing the bible preaches about believing? The bible literally says that those who question and just don't believe are fools.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:24:42 GMT -5
I think the meetings are based on the Prayer Fellowship/Union Meetings that the Faith Mission had back in the day. Bill just didn't carry over the 2x2 ministerial format, but also the meetings format. However, the bread and wine may have been added to it? Oh, this is the kind of format Redback talking about, I thought he was asking and talking about the Bible studies format... Here is my understanding on the history of the 2x2 format. Edward Cooney had met in home with his friends for meetings before he met William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1898. The 2x2 Jesus apostolic ministry format came from William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1897 and the Faith Mission Prayer Fellowship/Union meetings with no partaken the emblems/Eucharist, no baptism were done either.
Then in 1903 Edward Cooney and the early workers who came from various denomination had taken the emblems in their former churches so, they established the Sunday morning meetings in the homes of the friends, the believers to partake the emblems, and converts were baptized by the workers like they read in the New Testament had done by Jesus and the apostles.
Did they actually baptize converts in Sunday morning meetings Nathan?
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 17:26:19 GMT -5
I am always amazed to see just how little 2x2s know about their Bible – yes the saints gathered in the temple courts “daily” (like not just on Sundays)., but to celebrate the Passover – daily? Only to the completely Bible illiterate. Most Christians at that time were Jews, so just maybe the illiterates will sit back and enjoy a present-day Christian Jew in regard to the celebration of the Passover (with no reading work involved at all). TMB former 2x2s and registered professing folks aside, I am relatively sure that 2x2/visitors will find these vids very good to watch, Bible in hand and following along in it. Jesus and The Passover www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Vw4nk8sZ4&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=69&t=0sAmir Tsarfati: The Passover Lamb www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXbkJKQFovg&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=22&t=0sI can't see nathan's posts while logged in - thank goodness, but seeing first sentence while logged out was quite enough - and he is RIGHT - I know nothing of nathan's re-write of 2x2 history, and at a glance thank God for my ignorance of nathan's tale of speculations when workers very clearly DENIED the Trinity, the real gospel and everything but their own imaginings of what "the right church" should be - they called it an "ark" and if ya wanna get ta heven ya gotta be aboard THEIR ark - ho hum. Their whole thing was "the right church," not the right Savior. In all seriousness Grats, what on earth has this to do with whether or not you eat rice?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:29:32 GMT -5
And one more thing...A god that would command someone to kill their innocent son is not a god to be worshiped. only someone who has lost their vision would think that instead of seeing the deeper meanings... I would love to know just what deeper meanings can be taken from it. Truly. I see it as a God that asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, I presume in order to test his loyalty to him. What good can be said about that. The Mafia do that.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 17:29:56 GMT -5
Oh, this is the kind of format Redback talking about, I thought he was asking and talking about the Bible studies format... Here is my understanding on the history of the 2x2 format. Edward Cooney had met in home with his friends for meetings before he met William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1898. The 2x2 Jesus apostolic ministry format came from William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1897 and the Faith Mission Prayer Fellowship/Union meetings with no partaken the emblems/Eucharist, no baptism were done either.
Then in 1903 Edward Cooney and the early workers who came from various denomination had taken the emblems in their former churches so, they established the Sunday morning meetings in the homes of the friends, the believers to partake the emblems, and converts were baptized by the workers like they read in the New Testament had done by Jesus and the apostles.
Did they actually baptize converts in Sunday morning meetings Nathan? Only up until they couldn't get people to have meetings in their homes due to all the flooding. That's when the practice stopped!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 17:31:49 GMT -5
Gratu, interesting what you have said. Very clever strategy to instill the idea that you had to be "In the Spirit" to have any understanding. Gave the Workers complete control almost like hypnotism. Helps me to understand how many of us with strong minds did not fall under that spell. But isn't that the exact same thing the bible preaches about believing? The bible literally says that those who question and just don't believe are fools. Think I prefer being a fool, makes sense to me. If that is stupid, I'm glad I am mad.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:36:10 GMT -5
If it is hidden Speak, how did you find it???. Next question, why bother to hide it in the first place. Seems like an exercise in evasion not straight forward honesty of trying to get a point to be understood. If God wants us to understand him, why does he play games like hide and seek? And then if you don't find, he punishes you for ev a
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 17:38:48 GMT -5
Oh, this is the kind of format Redback talking about, I thought he was asking and talking about the Bible studies format... Here is my understanding on the history of the 2x2 format. Edward Cooney had met in home with his friends for meetings before he met William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1898. The 2x2 Jesus apostolic ministry format came from William Irvine the Faith Mission preacher in 1897 and the Faith Mission Prayer Fellowship/Union meetings with no partaken the emblems/Eucharist, no baptism were done either.
Then in 1903 Edward Cooney and the early workers who came from various denomination had taken the emblems in their former churches so, they established the Sunday morning meetings in the homes of the friends, the believers to partake the emblems, and converts were baptized by the workers like they read in the New Testament had done by Jesus and the apostles.
Did they actually baptize converts in Sunday morning meetings Nathan? I don't know about back in the early days, but the workers usually baptized on Sunday morning, or before conventions and sometimes whenever it needed.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:46:21 GMT -5
Did they actually baptize converts in Sunday morning meetings Nathan? I don't know about back in the early days, but the workers usually baptized on Sunday morning, or before conventions and sometimes whenever it needed.I have never seen a baptism on Sunday morning. That's a new concept to me. All the conventions I have attended had the baptisms Sunday morning on the last day of convention.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 17:48:49 GMT -5
I think when it is all said and done it depends on the mind we are born with, either logical or imaginative. You need a logical mind to embrace Science, an imaginative mind to enjoy Religion. We probably have no control over that. And they both achieve in different ways. Science moves us forward, religion entertains. And without imagination good books would never have got written, great films would never have been made.
I have always had little imagination, that is why I was not a good 2x2. But I found happiness when because of my work I became involved in the World of Science. And at the end of the day the most important thing is to be happy, at peace with yourself, and everybody around you. It doesn't matter much how you find that peace, the important thing is to find it.
|
|
|
Post by slowtosee on Mar 8, 2020 17:50:00 GMT -5
Did they actually baptize converts in Sunday morning meetings Nathan? Only up until they couldn't get people to have meetings in their homes due to all the flooding. That's when the practice stopped! Is that when the split in the church happened - from the flooding ? Wouldn’t a small garden hose or something, have avoided the big floods and east west split ? Always something , I guess to cause a big ruckus, and trying to tell people to calm down is like trying to baptize a cat . Cats , anyhow. Now I’m wondering if it wasn’t raining cats and dogs , causing the flooding . Checking historical weather records , to see if timing lines up with the split , might prove once and for all ,the real reason why William headed for the hills of Jerusalem and thus making the preaching “we come from the shores of Galilee” actually TRUE . William , the founder , truly lived very close to Gallillee . Wow. I’m loving these new revelations. Alvin
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 17:53:50 GMT -5
I don't know about back in the early days, but the workers usually baptized on Sunday morning, or before conventions and sometimes whenever it needed. I have never seen a baptism on Sunday morning. That's a new concept to me. All the conventions I have attended had the baptisms Sunday morning on the last day of convention. I had been to a few myself.... The friends had a home nearby a stream in Portland, a few people were baptized and we had Sunday morning meeting after the baptism. It was so wonderful, and beautiful. I have seen the workers make an announcement for anyone interested before conventions because the workers were at preps and they had time to do the baptism.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 17:54:41 GMT -5
Sure thing, never started in Australia. Came hear bit like a virus.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Mar 8, 2020 17:55:25 GMT -5
I think when it is all said and done it depends on the mind we are born with, either logical or imaginative. You need a logical mind to embrace Science, an imaginative mind to enjoy Religion. We probably have no control over that. And they both achieve in different ways. Science moves us forward, religion entertains. And without imagination good books would never have got written, great films would never have been made. I have always had little imagination, that is why I was not a good 2x2. But I found happiness when because of my work I became involved in the World of Science. And at the end of the day the most important thing is to be happy, at peace with yourself, and everybody around you. It doesn't matter much how you find that peace, the important thing is to find it. Actually science is for the logical brain, art is for the imaginative brain, and religion is for the brainless. This board has ample evidence of that.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:56:41 GMT -5
I have never seen a baptism on Sunday morning. That's a new concept to me. All the conventions I have attended had the baptisms Sunday morning on the last day of convention. I had been to a few myself.... The friends had a home nearby a stream in Portland, a few people were baptized and we had Sunday morning meeting after the baptism. It was so wonderful, and beautiful. I have seen the workers make an announcement for anyone interested before conventions because the workers were at preps and they had time to do the baptism.Thanks Nathan, I have never experienced that. Didn't know it happened.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Mar 8, 2020 17:57:54 GMT -5
I think when it is all said and done it depends on the mind we are born with, either logical or imaginative. You need a logical mind to embrace Science, an imaginative mind to enjoy Religion. We probably have no control over that. And they both achieve in different ways. Science moves us forward, religion entertains. And without imagination good books would never have got written, great films would never have been made. I have always had little imagination, that is why I was not a good 2x2. But I found happiness when because of my work I became involved in the World of Science. And at the end of the day the most important thing is to be happy, at peace with yourself, and everybody around you. It doesn't matter much how you find that peace, the important thing is to find it. Actually science is for the logical brain, art is for the imaginative brain, and religion is for the brainless. This board has ample evidence of that. Well STR says I'm a good example of foolish, so at least she considers me good for something... ha!
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 18:00:05 GMT -5
I think when it is all said and done it depends on the mind we are born with, either logical or imaginative. You need a logical mind to embrace Science, an imaginative mind to enjoy Religion. We probably have no control over that. And they both achieve in different ways. Science moves us forward, religion entertains. And without imagination good books would never have got written, great films would never have been made. I have always had little imagination, that is why I was not a good 2x2. But I found happiness when because of my work I became involved in the World of Science. And at the end of the day the most important thing is to be happy, at peace with yourself, and everybody around you. It doesn't matter much how you find that peace, the important thing is to find it. Jesus said in Matthew 10: 34-35 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Doing the will of God will clash with your unbelievers family wills, and they will hate you for it because you put God first/before them! Therefore, it will bring unrest, hardships and so on.
So, Jesus said in Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Draw closer to God and Christ in these difficult time and trials of your faith, they will give you inner peace, rest and comfort for your souls. A wonderful fellowship with God you can never imagine... I had been there many times myself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 18:15:50 GMT -5
Nathan, individual Family unity, peace and happiness is one of the most precious things we have on this Earth. It should be protected against anything that will destroy it. It grieves me when I know how my Parents Families were torn apart by the 2x2 Gospel. And the Workers condoned it, said it was meant to happen. Wrong, wrong,always wrong.
|
|