|
Post by fixit on Mar 8, 2020 13:14:25 GMT -5
Well, now, there you may well have more understanding than I have -- I haven't been in 2x2 meetings of any sort on any frequent basis for most of my lifetime. Occasionally I do learn of the location of a 2x2 Gospel Meeting and attend it, only to find the same old same old workers' messages being preached without any hint of any changes whatsoever. But it is becoming obvious that the newer generations of 2x2s are nowhere near as blindly led as in the past generations. Just where that will lead the majority in the future remains to be seen. A very similar case some years ago materialized in Armstrong's Woldwide Church of God when Armstrong died. New leadership began teaching Biblical teachings for the first time. And the church of Armstrong began to fracture and splinter as a result. And today, the Worldwide Church of God is as Biblically sound as any other denomination - actually it stands ALONE in church history as a 'cult' that became orthodox. Just maybe 2x2ism will be the second to do the same - who knows. There is certainly nothing seriously wrong with the 2x2 church form - the problem with 2x2ism has always been its unBiblical teachings - right from Irvine onward. And the very few workers who did get close to preaching sound Biblical doctrines were soon kicked out by the unBiblical-teaching hierarchy - starting with John Long, one of Irvine's first "companions." And in line with that, redback, your questioning of 2x2 meeting format is a great start. The term "Biblically sound" makes no more sense than referring to your favourite political party as "politically sound".
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Mar 8, 2020 13:21:33 GMT -5
Interestingly, William Irvine was a breath of fresh air to the regularity of Methodism.
From Goodhand Pattison's Account:
Reports reached us at Cloughjordan about the strange man and his strange methods, etc. Nearly everything was highly unconventional--forms, rules and usages were either discarded or flung ruthlessly aside; instead of the "beaten path" of Singing, Prayer, Singing, Scripture reading, Singing, Sermon, taken from a well chosen text, with its well-studied 1stly, 2ndly, 3rdly, 4thly; and application, etc., then Hymn and Doxology.
One never knew from first to last what was going to come next with him. Sometimes there was hardly any sermon; at other times nearly all sermon. Sometime he would give out a hymn, and from some thought therein start talking to end of meeting and never sing a hymn at all. Sometimes they would sing half a hymn standing, remainder sitting. Sometimes nearly all racy anecdotes with plenty smiles and laughter, at other times soul-stirring exhortation, backed by sad and tragic experiences, etc.
All this added freshness and life to the words of one whose intense earnestness and wholehearted zeal and devotion none of us had seen before, and no wonder that the Nenagh (certainly not at that time overburdened with much more than the merest husk and shell in religion) had some of its best type powerfully appealed to, and yielded quite a crop of decisions for God
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 13:37:36 GMT -5
And one more thing... abraham offered up his son issac as a precursor sacrifice to the coming Christ...an example of we not having to die for our sins and God picking the sacrifice instead with Jesus Christ/the ram... A god that would command someone to kill their innocent son is not a god to be worshiped. only someone who has lost their vision would think that instead of seeing the deeper meanings...
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 13:42:15 GMT -5
From what Paul writes the partaking of bread and the wine was far more regular than an annual event. In fact I believe it likely occurred at every main meal? Perhaps this is how giving thanks before a meal should be, at least regularly? Jesus took two things that were almost ever present at a main meal back then, i.e bread and wine, to symbolise his sacrifice and life. He kept things simple and convenient as well as sincere. 1 Corinthians 11:26 King James Version (KJV) 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. *** Read I Cor.16:1. It seemed the believers came together to commemorate Christ's Passover every Sunday/1st day of the week. I read the early apostolic church fathers history book had celebrate the Eucharist/Christ Passover on EVERY Sunday in the church elders homes where the believers come together to remember Jesus life, death and resurrection. Hast thou forgotten: Acts 2.46 “And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,” It seems to me that it was as often as they were gathered for a meal, etc. I see it as similar to giving thanks before a meal.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 13:53:21 GMT -5
*** You are off your rocker, again... If you were 2x2 you should know these things by now. You are about as observant as my nine iron -- I quoted the whole text that you provided references for and asked you to point out where it said anything about Meeting format - that should have been super easy to do if it was in the text you referenced. But all you came back with is the 2x2 insertions into the text - fine - you say you are a 2x2, but evidently cannot point out one bit of the 2x2 Meeting format in the Bible yourself - and that on top of having already tried drawing a distinction where there is no difference between 2x2 Meeting format that is the same format for in all 2x2 Meetings. Anyway, you have shown enough inability with the Bible already to alert any 2x2/visitors who see your stuff on this thread. So my job to expose false teachers is done. *** If you were a good 2x2 you should have KNOWN and UNDERSTAND these simple, basic teachings yourself, the Holy Spirit would have shown you these things already. I have explained and posted these doctrines for over 20 yrs on TMB.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 14:08:21 GMT -5
*** Read I Cor.16:1. It seemed the believers came together to commemorate Christ's Passover every Sunday/1st day of the week. I read the early apostolic church fathers history book had celebrate the Eucharist/Christ Passover on EVERY Sunday in the church elders homes where the believers come together to remember Jesus life, death and resurrection. Hast thou forgotten: Acts 2.46 “And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,” It seems to me that it was as often as they were gathered for a meal, etc. I see it as similar to giving thanks before a meal. ** No, I didn't forget about Acts 2... Christ's Pssover was a continuation of Exodus Old Testament Passover lamb where the many children of Israelites families came together, each family has their own celebratation remind each other how God had asked them to apply the blood of the lambs on to their homes door posts from the angels of death. Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away our sins. His blood cleansed or blotted out our sins daily. The Christians at Corinth came to Christ's Passover meals got so drunk from drinking too much wine it kind ruined the important part of the gathering! That was to praising God the Father and Christ for their deliverance us from our own sins and to give us eternal life here on earth and life after death.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 14:17:00 GMT -5
Hast thou forgotten: Acts 2.46 “And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,” It seems to me that it was as often as they were gathered for a meal, etc. I see it as similar to giving thanks before a meal. ** No, I didn't forget about Acts 2... Christ's Pssover was a continuation of Exodus Old Testament Passover lamb where the many children of Israelites families came together, each family has their own celebratation remind each other how God had asked them to apply the blood of the lambs on to their homes door posts from the angels of death. Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away our sins. His blood cleansed or blotted out our sins daily. The Christians at Corinth came to Christ's Passover meals got so drunk from drinking too much wine it kind ruined the important part of the gathering! That was to praising God the Father and Christ for their deliverance us from our own sins and to give us eternal life here on earth and life after death. If you didn't forget about Acts 2.46, how do you reconcile it with what you post above? Paul said 'as often as ye do this ye do it in remembrance of Christ (paraphrased). It seems obvious to me that the Passover Lamb was remembered 'daily' at meal times!
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Mar 8, 2020 14:58:08 GMT -5
only someone who has lost their vision would think that instead of seeing the deeper meanings... There's some partial truth to that. But let's back up to the vision that was lost. The vision that was lost is not the story that is in the Bible. It's a story added by men. The Bible story is that Abe somehow got the idea that he needed to kill his son. An offering to his god. We're talking human sacrifice. Does your god promote human sacrifice? Mine doesn't. Of course, men have added their own ideas to the story and rolled it into Christianity, but the stark reality of the account given in the bible is a horrific story of a man with a delusion that he needed to offer his son as a human sacrifice to appease his god to bring about his promise. We say things like Abe never really believed he would really have to go through it, but none of that is factual. It's just what we say to rationalize an act of brutal and violent insanity. That rationalization of an insane and cruel act is the vision that I have lost.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 15:07:47 GMT -5
Thank you to all who have posted. My question has been answered the meeting format was engineered by those early Workers mainly as a protest against other Churches. Nothing to do with the Bible. Sort of shoots holes in the catch lines they were using, "From the Shores of Galilee", "True Way" "Right Way". 2x2's were no different to other Churches, they worked it out to suit themselves. No harm in that, normal Human behaviour, claims are made all the time that somebody has invented a better mouse trap. Churches are no different except it is a Human trap.
But if you invent a new trap, don't have the audacity to criticise others that have done the same thing. Workers openly criticised other Churches in Gospel Meetings. Yet what they were flogging was also worked out by Humans, just a new version.
We lived near a Catholic Church and used to make fun of how people would go to Mass every morning before work. How wrong we were, they were more sincere than we were. We were lazy, only went once a week. And the Catholics had justification for that and rightly so. Why do Catholics take communion every day? Roman Catholics believe that celebrating the Holy Eucharist and receiving Holy Communion is the highest form of worship, and is Christ's way of providing spiritual nourishment to his people. ... So Roman Catholics daily Mass to offer the sacrifice of Christ daily for forgiveness of sin and spiritual renewal.
So the lesson is never say you are the only one who has got it right. There are many ways of skinning a Cat.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:04:21 GMT -5
** No, I didn't forget about Acts 2... Christ's Pssover was a continuation of Exodus Old Testament Passover lamb where the many children of Israelites families came together, each family has their own celebratation remind each other how God had asked them to apply the blood of the lambs on to their homes door posts from the angels of death. Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away our sins. His blood cleansed or blotted out our sins daily. The Christians at Corinth came to Christ's Passover meals got so drunk from drinking too much wine it kind ruined the important part of the gathering! That was to praising God the Father and Christ for their deliverance us from our own sins and to give us eternal life here on earth and life after death. If you didn't forget about Acts 2.46, how do you reconcile it with what you post above? Paul said 'as often as ye do this ye do it in remembrance of Christ (paraphrased). It seems obvious to me that the Passover Lamb was remembered 'daily' at meal times! I believe you are misinterpreted that... You must remember the believers had jobs and pay to bills, they couldn't sit around all days eating meals, and given thanks! for the Passover meal with one another EVERY Day! You can give thanks, to God and Christ 3 times a day without the believers to be with you. It seemed the believers get together once a week on Sunday to have Christ's Passover meals with one another, but looked like the meals part were done away with as time goes.... They just keep the tradition of Christ's Passover meals spiritually, less people to get drunk with drinking too much wine, fighting and confusion.
God and Christ did NOT started the Passover for his people to get drunk and fight each others! during the fellowship and worship gathering.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 16:15:12 GMT -5
Nathan, excuses, excuses. Just another way worked out by Humans to suit themselves. Happens all the time, no problem with that. But don't pretend it is the only right way. Just another one of many, and there will be more to come. Humans are good at using their imagination.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:17:49 GMT -5
It is you who don't KNOW about the early days 2x2 workers teaching/doctrines. They KNEW and Taught the Godhead, Christ is God and He is part of the Trinity/Triune God. Christ is divine/God like unto the Father and the Holy Spirit.
The apostles and believers go to the temple court yards! NOT to worship or observing the animals sacrifices for their sins... Christ/Jesus had paid for their sins on Calvary's. They went to the temple court yards to tell the Jews to REPENT of their sins, by sharing the Revelation that Jesus is the Christ the Lamb of God who died for their sins that the prophets of Old and Moses had foretold that He would come.
Peter stood up and said in Acts 2:22-40 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41-47 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Mar 8, 2020 16:24:51 GMT -5
They went there daily to pray.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:25:13 GMT -5
Jack T. Carroll (2x2 worker 1900s) : San Diego, convention 1951.
Old Test. Passover Feast vs. New Test. Christ the Passover Lamb of God.
(Colossians 2:16,17) Let no man therefore judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a Shadow of the things, which are to come; the Reality however, is found in Christ. (I Cor. 6:7) ... For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. (Exodus 12) They gave the name of Passover to the feast which was established in commemoration of the coming forth Out of Egypt, because the night before their departure, the destroying angel, who Slew the Firstborn of the Egyptians, passed over Israelites, who were marked (on the top and sides of the door frame of the house) with the Blood of the Lamb which was Killed the evening before; and which for this reason was called the Pascal lamb. There is a very close connection between the Old Testament Passover and the New Testament Breaking of Bread. It would be a very helpful study to read (Exodus 12 and Luke 22) and other portions of scripture and have this Fact established firmly in our minds that there is a close connection between the First Passover Feast and First New Testament Breaking of Bread. Special study: Old Testament Passover Feast/New Test. Breaking of Bread. 1. Old Testament Preparation: (Exodus 12:1-13) Each man to take a Lamb for his family, one for each HOUSE. The Sheep you choose must be Year Old males Without Defects. They are to take some blood and put it on the sides and tops of the door frames of the Houses, where they eat the Lambs...It is the Lord's Passover. ~~ New Testament Passover. Preparation: (I Cor 5: 6-8) Christ is our Passover Lamb, which have been sacrificed for us. 2. Old Testament Feast: Place (Exodus 12: 3) The Passover Lamb was to be eaten in the HOMES of the Israelites. ~~ New Testament Passover: Place. (Luke 22:7-13) Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John saying, "Go and make preparation for us to eat the Passover, as you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water fill of water will meet you. Follow him to his HOUSE ...and He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there." 3. Old Testament Feast: Number of people to be gathered. (Exodus 12:1-4) Each man to take a lamb for his family, one for each Household. If any household is too small for the whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the Number of people there are. ~~ New Testament Passover: Number of people to be gathered. (Matthew 18:20) Jesus said, "For where two or three come together in my name, there Am I with them." (I Cor. 14:23-40) If therefore the whole church come together into ONE place.... How it is then, brethren? when you come together, Every One! of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue (language) has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 4. Old Testament Feast: Time. (Exodus 12:18) In the first month you are to eat bread made without Yeast, from the evening of the 14th day until the evening of the 21st day. ~~ New Testament Passover: Day. (John 20:19-20) On the evening of that First day of the week, the disciples were together; with the door locked...Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace is with you." (Acts 2:1) When the day of Pentecost. First day of the week, they were all with one accord in one place. And they were filled with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:41-42,46) The Apostles and new 3000 converts they continued steadfastly in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in Breaking of bread, and in Prayers... breaking bread from house to house. (Acts 20:7) On the First day of the Week We came together to Break Bread, Paul preached unto them. (I Cor.16: 2) Upon the First day of the Week let every one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping in his income, saving up (a collection for the Poor Saints in Jerusalem), so that no collections will be made when I come. (I Cor. 16:19) Aquila and Pricilla greet you warmly in the Lord, so does the church that meets at their HOUSE!. (Colossians 4: 15) Nymphas, and the church is in her House! (Philemon 2) Our beloved Apphia, to the church in thy House!. (Revelation 1:9,10) I, John (95 A.D.) was on the island called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as saying, "I am Alpha and Omega the First and Last. What you see write it in a book, and send it to the seven (7) churches in Asia minor (Now is Turkey)". ~~ Apostolic fathers writings: Eucharist celebrated on Sunday!
~ Justin Martyr (160 A.D.) On the day called Sunday! all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one Place. And the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, the leader verbally instructs us and exhorts us to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray when our prayer is ended, Bread and Wine are brought. Then the leader offers prayers and thanksgivings according to his ability then, the Euchrarist is distributed to everyone, and everyone participates in that over which thanks have been given. Let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist but those who have been baptized into the name of the Lord. No one is allowed to partake of it but the one who believes that the things which we TEACH are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the Remission of sin, and unto regeneration, and who is living as Christ has commanded. It is called Eucharist because it is an action of thanksgiving to God. The Greek word Eucharistein and Eulogein recalled the Jewish blessings, that proclaim especially during a meal---- God's works: creation, redemption, and sanctification. The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover. It was on "the First day of the Week," Sunday! the day of the Jesus' resurrection, that the Christians met "to break bread." From that time on down to our own day the celebration of the Eucharist has been continued so that today we encounter it everywhere in the Church with the same fundamental structure. It remains the Center! of the Church life. 5. Old Testament Feast: Purpose. (Exodus 12:14) God said "This is a day you are to Commemorate for the generation to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord a Lasting Ordinance". ~~ New Testament Passover: Purpose. (Luke 22:19-20) Jesus took Bread, gave thanks and said, "This is my body given for you; do this in Remembrance of ME. This is the Cup in the New Testament which is my Blood, which is poured out for you." (I Cor.11: 22-26) For whenever you eat this Bread and Drink this cup. You drink it, in Remembrance of Me! You Proclaim the Lord's Death Until He Comes Again. (Luke 22: 15-18) Jesus said to his disciples saying, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it Finds Fulfillment in the kingdom of God." The Purpose of the Lord's Supper was intended to declare the Death, Resurrection, and Second Coming of Christ. For as Often! as ye eat this Bread and Drink this Cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He comes. (I Cor.11: 26). The Bible also commanded us to assemble with the Saints. "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Heb.10: 25). Therefore, the first day of the week is the time to partake of the Bread and Wine NOT just once a month, or three times or four times a year. The Bread and Wine is an important part of our Worship to the Father, remembrance of Christ's Sacrificed for us. (I John1: 7) If we walk in the Light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with One Another, the Blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from ALL Sin. Jesus, in connection with the Passover Meal, first celebrated the Lord's Supper. The Cup is a Symbol of the New Covenant in Jesus blood. The Old Covenant was the Mosaic covenant; (Exodus 24:3-8) by the use of this covenant sign God signifies his approval of salvation upon his people; sealed and paid for by the shedding of Jesus' blood. The broken bread is Symbol of Christ's body given for Sinners (Luke 22: 19). As the Feast of Passover was a commemorative meal (Exodus 12:14), so also the Lord's Supper is a memorial supper, recalling and portraying Christ's death for sinners. In Old Testament days there were regular gatherings of God's people, as we know, were the annual feasts, the feast of the Passover, the feast of Pentecost, and the feast of tabernacle. They came from the north, south; east and west traveled many miles to reach Jerusalem to keep these feasts. The main purpose of which these annual feasts were to unite widely scattered people of God in one fellowship. There are regular gathering of God's people mentioned in the New Testament and also special gatherings in edifying, and have fellowship each other in the Lord.Here are two fundamentals of the "faith of Jesus" from which we dare not to depart. The First is "the Preacher without a home," and the Second, "the Church meet in the homes to partake of the Lord's Supper (bread and the wine). " One of the first conditions of those who think of entering Jesus' ministry is willingness to have fellowship with Jesus, the homeless son of Man. Jesus said, "Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20). There have been men and women who have voluntarily made themselves homeless for the gospel's sake in order that they might have fellowship with Jesus in His homelessness as the Pattern Sent One, the pattern minister of the gospel. The Second fundamental is "the church meet in the home to partake the Lord's Supper (Bread and Wine)". The early Christians met the first day of the week in little groups to worship God in spirit and in truth. Jesus said, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the TRUE worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a Spirit: And they worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:23,24) When in Rome some years ago, we planned to visit one of the oldest churches in that city. We found that the present structure was 16 feet below the level of the street. The foundation of this church was built on the foundation of another Church still older, and that second Church was built on the foundation of a Private Home. When we entered into this home, which had been excavated, the floor of one of the rooms had been preserved marvelously. The Franciscan priests that were our guide told us that way back in those first New Testament days the Church met for worship in this time. He said this home is believed to be home of Pudens whom we read about in (II Timothy 4:21). The point I wish to make is that this Catholic priest told us that in this home, believed to be home the home of Pudens, the early church met for Worship in the Room that we were then standing in. Some years ago in the city of Vancouver, the Church of England put on a Palestine exhibition to raise money for their missionaries. I attended a lecture on the Passover and listened to the speaker explain clearly and scriptural he invited some come forward and asks any questions in connection with the Passover Feast. I asked if the Passover feast was established in the homes of the children of Israelites and never celebrated anywhere else? He replied, "That is true, and even to this day the Jews keep the Passover Feast not in their Synagogues or in their temple but in their homes." I asked him then, "What is the connection between the Old Test. Passover Feast and the New Test. Breaking of Bread established?" He said, "In a private home in Jerusalem, later they broke bread from house to house." I asked, "When did they cease to break bread in homes?" He replied, "I cannot tell you, neither can I justify the Church taking the communion service out of the homes of the people of God and placing them it in the hand of a priest in a public building." I then asked, " Would it be a good thing to take the Breaking of Bread back to where the Lord, Jesus established it?" He replied, " It would be revolutionary, it would turn the world upside-down!" and hurried away. (JTC, 1951) web.archive.org/web/20150903024558/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com:80/thread/175/church-buildings-home-meetings
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:30:24 GMT -5
They went there daily to pray. I showed you in Acts 2 the apostles and believers went there more than just PRAYING! They preached about Jesus is the Christ and 3000 souls were converted to follow Jesus the Christ.
We read in the gospels that Christ and Paul often went to the temple court yards and synagogues to TEACH others and converting them into follow Him/Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:1-5 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2020 16:38:45 GMT -5
*** You are off your rocker, again... If you were 2x2 you should know these things by now. From what Paul writes the partaking of bread and the wine was far more regular than an annual event. In fact I believe it likely occurred at every main meal? Perhaps this is how giving thanks before a meal should be, at least regularly? Jesus took two things that were almost ever present at a main meal back then, i.e bread and wine, to symbolise his sacrifice and life. He kept things simple and convenient as well as sincere. 1 Corinthians 11:26 King James Version (KJV) 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. The feast of unleavened bread starts day before Passover. In the Seder feasts I’ve been privileged to partake of, unleavened bread or Matzo was served. Four cups of wine are served. It’s the bread and wine after the main course has been eaten that is priority. We were instructed to eat a bit of matzo and then drink of our fourth cup of wine and nothing else was to enter our mouths after that. We were encouraged to quietly keep that tasted of matzo and wine in our mouths, quietly arise and leave the room without saying anything so the taste would stay with us longer. Most of us left and went to our vehicles and left the premises without a word to anyone. We then had the taste much longer. That behooves us to write thank you notes to our hosts! 😃
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2020 16:40:30 GMT -5
They went there daily to pray. I showed you in Acts 2 the apostles and believers went there more than just PRAYING! They preached about Jesus is the Christ and 3000 souls were converted to follow Jesus the Christ.
We read in the gospels that Christ and Paul often went to the temple court yards and synagogues to TEACH others and converting them into follow Him/Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:1-5 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.Isn’t there a difference between temple and synagogues?
|
|
|
Post by speak on Mar 8, 2020 16:41:37 GMT -5
I find the frustration with 2x2 thinking is the obscurity of it. It is not clearly defined, very flexible. And if you ask a question they will always "Toe the Company Line" It is annoying you like people who are positive, and think for themselves and let commonsense control their minds. If you ask a straight question you don't expect evasive gobbledygook. Never had that.
|
|
|
Post by speak on Mar 8, 2020 16:43:48 GMT -5
Thank you Gratu, at least you have shed some light on it. It is just interesting to know why that particular format was chosen. Most Churches are able to tell you the reason why they do what they do. 2x2's seem to believe in obscurity, I guess it gives then wriggle room to avoid questioning. Frustrating. It is the Holy Spirit which makes it unknown to those who don't follow Jesus, Jesus tells us it is hidden.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2020 16:46:32 GMT -5
** No, I didn't forget about Acts 2... Christ's Pssover was a continuation of Exodus Old Testament Passover lamb where the many children of Israelites families came together, each family has their own celebratation remind each other how God had asked them to apply the blood of the lambs on to their homes door posts from the angels of death. Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away our sins. His blood cleansed or blotted out our sins daily. The Christians at Corinth came to Christ's Passover meals got so drunk from drinking too much wine it kind ruined the important part of the gathering! That was to praising God the Father and Christ for their deliverance us from our own sins and to give us eternal life here on earth and life after death. If you didn't forget about Acts 2.46, how do you reconcile it with what you post above? Paul said 'as often as ye do this ye do it in remembrance of Christ (paraphrased). It seems obvious to me that the Passover Lamb was remembered 'daily' at meal times! Not unless they used unleavened bread.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 16:46:48 GMT -5
If you didn't forget about Acts 2.46, how do you reconcile it with what you post above? Paul said 'as often as ye do this ye do it in remembrance of Christ (paraphrased). It seems obvious to me that the Passover Lamb was remembered 'daily' at meal times! I believe you are misinterpreted that... You must remember the believers had jobs and pay to bills, they couldn't sit around all days eating meals, and given thanks! for the Passover meal with one another EVERY Day! You can give thanks, to God and Christ 3 times a day without the believers to be with you. It seemed the believers get together once a week on Sunday to have Christ's Passover meals with one another, but looked like the meals part were done away with as time goes.... They just keep the tradition of Christ's Passover meals spiritually, less people to get drunk with drinking too much wine, fighting and confusion.
God and Christ did NOT started the Passover for his people to get drunk and fight each others! during the fellowship and worship gathering.
You completely ignore the fact that it was a family occasion as well. The disciples clearly broke bread going from house to house on a daily basis. There doesn't have to be a ceremony or fanfare about it, a simple sincere act of remembrance. When Jesus instituted the braking of bread, hours before he died, he didn't conduct a formal religious service or 'meeting' round about it. However, God likes hospitality and the occasion could be as big or as small as a man's house could hold. Remember, where two or three are gathered together in the Lord's name, there he will be. The same goes for the bread and wine. By the way, who took the bread and wine away from the dining table? Who made it part of a religious service? Who wrested it from the homes of believers and made an altar service of it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 16:48:11 GMT -5
If it is hidden Speak, how did you find it???.
|
|
|
Post by speak on Mar 8, 2020 16:48:34 GMT -5
And one more thing...A god that would command someone to kill their innocent son is not a god to be worshiped. only someone who has lost their vision would think that instead of seeing the deeper meanings... That seems to be the case.
|
|
|
Post by nathan on Mar 8, 2020 16:48:44 GMT -5
I showed you in Acts 2 the apostles and believers went there more than just PRAYING! They preached about Jesus is the Christ and 3000 souls were converted to follow Jesus the Christ.
We read in the gospels that Christ and Paul often went to the temple court yards and synagogues to TEACH others and converting them into follow Him/Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:1-5 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. Isn’t there a difference between temple and synagogues? Yes, there is …. The Jewish Synagogue:
In most of the world today, Jewish houses of worship are known as synagogues. This term is actually a Greek translation of beit k'nesset. Since Greek was the universal language of scholars in the ancient Mediterranean world, it was the Greek translation of the Jewish house of assembly that became the most commonly used term. The synagogue itself is actually run by members of the community, who hire a rabbi as a spiritual leader, as well as other supporting clergy and staff. So, what is the function of a synagogue? In Jewish communities, the synagogue is a place of worship, a school, a community center, and a social hall all rolled into one. However, it's first and foremost a place for prayer. In Judaism, prayer is considered to be very powerful, and Jewish people have certain prayers which must be said daily. While these can technically be said anywhere, Jews do believe that prayer becomes more powerful in groups. Synagogues are also important places of education. Jewish children study the Jewish laws and sacred texts until an age of maturity has been reached. However, the study of Jewish law and tradition doesn't actually stop with the bar mitzvah, the coming of age for young men (the coming of age celebration for young women is called the bat mitzvah). Adult Jews are expected to research and consult sacred texts throughout their lives, and most synagogues maintain libraries for this purpose. The Jewish Temple:
Even if you're not Jewish, you've probably heard the term synagogue before. However, you've also probably heard about Jewish temples. So, what's the difference? Basically, while we can talk about a synagogue, we can only talk about the Temple. In Judaism, the Temple was the central place of worship for the Jewish people, the sacred building located in Jerusalem. The Temple was to Jews sort of what the Vatican is to Catholics, only even more defined in its importance. In Jewish history, the concept of spiritually interacting with God begins with the tabernacle, a portable structure carried by Moses and the Israelites from Egypt. The tabernacle was the place where the Israelites could meet with God, pray, and conduct their rituals in a divine presence. When they finally arrived and settled in Jerusalem, the tabernacle was replaced by the Temple of Solomon, the first permanent Jewish temple. This was the new house where humans and God could interact. The Temple became the symbol of the Jewish people, but it was destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II around 587 BCE. The Jews were expelled, returning some 70 years later to build the Second Temple. The Second Temple stood in Jerusalem for centuries, until being destroyed by Romans in 70 CE. This structure plays a very important role in both Judaism and Christianity; it was to this temple that Christ came to celebrate the Jewish rituals. study.com/academy/lesson/synagogue-vs-temple-definitions-differences.html
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 16:49:35 GMT -5
Thank you to all who have posted. My question has been answered the meeting format was engineered by those early Workers mainly as a protest against other Churches. Nothing to do with the Bible. Sort of shoots holes in the catch lines they were using, "From the Shores of Galilee", "True Way" "Right Way". 2x2's were no different to other Churches, they worked it out to suit themselves. No harm in that, normal Human behaviour, claims are made all the time that somebody has invented a better mouse trap. Churches are no different except it is a Human trap. But if you invent a new trap, don't have the audacity to criticise others that have done the same thing. Workers openly criticised other Churches in Gospel Meetings. Yet what they were flogging was also worked out by Humans, just a new version. We lived near a Catholic Church and used to make fun of how people would go to Mass every morning before work. How wrong we were, they were more sincere than we were. We were lazy, only went once a week. And the Catholics had justification for that and rightly so. Why do Catholics take communion every day? Roman Catholics believe that celebrating the Holy Eucharist and receiving Holy Communion is the highest form of worship, and is Christ's way of providing spiritual nourishment to his people. ... So Roman Catholics daily Mass to offer the sacrifice of Christ daily for forgiveness of sin and spiritual renewal. So the lesson is never say you are the only one who has got it right. There are many ways of skinning a Cat. Please keep cat's out of it. I lost my dear Tigs recently through tragic circumstances. All I am left with now is RT's avatar which is the spitting image of Tigs. Good point about the Skafflix though!
|
|
|
Post by speak on Mar 8, 2020 16:51:46 GMT -5
If it is hidden Speak, how did you find it???. I didn't, God gave it to me.
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Mar 8, 2020 16:53:47 GMT -5
I showed you in Acts 2 the apostles and believers went there more than just PRAYING! They preached about Jesus is the Christ and 3000 souls were converted to follow Jesus the Christ.
We read in the gospels that Christ and Paul often went to the temple court yards and synagogues to TEACH others and converting them into follow Him/Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:1-5 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few. But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. Isn’t there a difference between temple and synagogues? Yes, it's a bit like Convention tent and home meetings.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Mar 8, 2020 16:54:13 GMT -5
Thank you to all who have posted. My question has been answered the meeting format was engineered by those early Workers mainly as a protest against other Churches. Nothing to do with the Bible. Sort of shoots holes in the catch lines they were using, "From the Shores of Galilee", "True Way" "Right Way". 2x2's were no different to other Churches, they worked it out to suit themselves. No harm in that, normal Human behaviour, claims are made all the time that somebody has invented a better mouse trap. Churches are no different except it is a Human trap. But if you invent a new trap, don't have the audacity to criticise others that have done the same thing. Workers openly criticised other Churches in Gospel Meetings. Yet what they were flogging was also worked out by Humans, just a new version. We lived near a Catholic Church and used to make fun of how people would go to Mass every morning before work. How wrong we were, they were more sincere than we were. We were lazy, only went once a week. And the Catholics had justification for that and rightly so. Why do Catholics take communion every day? Roman Catholics believe that celebrating the Holy Eucharist and receiving Holy Communion is the highest form of worship, and is Christ's way of providing spiritual nourishment to his people. ... So Roman Catholics daily Mass to offer the sacrifice of Christ daily for forgiveness of sin and spiritual renewal. So the lesson is never say you are the only one who has got it right. There are many ways of skinning a Cat. Please keep cat's out of it. I lost my dear Tigs recently through tragic circumstances. All I am left with now is RT's avatar which is the spitting image of Tigs. Good point about the Skafflix though! Surely there’s kittens needing homes around? I’ve been wanting a pet but they’ve tightened city laws around here even for cats so that means increased vet and training costs.
|
|