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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 30, 2020 20:52:19 GMT -5
Well, as I already said; -I realized that you might have a hard time trying to "wrap (your) head around" such concepts!
But why is the concept illogical ?
After all, -there had to be a reason why every culture that we have ever learned anything about has always created some kind of supernatural being or beings and wove a story around those beings in an effort to try to understand what was happening in their world.
PS: Why are you taking it personally? I didn't say that YOU did anything. its illogical because you do not consider that our Creator doesn’t go about looking for false gods that can’t create ,communicate, teach truth , have mercy, forgive, and Live eternal past —to future ‘when you know all , there isn’t another like Him How interesting! You did just what I was talking about!
You just "created" a "god" as an explanation for when things happen that people don't understand, -just as I stated people tend to do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 20:55:37 GMT -5
its illogical because you do not consider that our Creator doesn’t go about looking for false gods that can’t create ,communicate, teach truth , have mercy, forgive, and Live eternal past —to future ‘when you know all , there isn’t another like Him Those other gods are false gods, the first false god was based on the legend of Noah’s grandson Nimrod, from Babylonia who wanted to build a tower that could reach heaven —. Not sure exactly why he wanted that ! Turns out he was afraid of another deluge’ and was not about to drown in such an event, Yet God said he wouldn’t send another deluge. I believe Him. the only references i could find for nimrod in the bible is that he was a good hunter, where did you get that he built the tower of babel or was the first false god? i also heard he was responsible for christmas too but i don't see that in the bible either...
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Post by So then on Mar 30, 2020 21:24:25 GMT -5
Those other gods are false gods, the first false god was based on the legend of Noah’s grandson Nimrod, from Babylonia who wanted to build a tower that could reach heaven —. Not sure exactly why he wanted that ! Turns out he was afraid of another deluge’ and was not about to drown in such an event, Yet God said he wouldn’t send another deluge. I believe Him. the only references i could find for nimrod in the bible is that he was a good hunter, where did you get that he built the tower of babel or was the first false god? i also heard he was responsible for christmas too but i don't see that in the bible either... Do a search for the subject I can’t post links like I use to Ytry: Was Nimrod of Babylonia a god? I will see what that goes to? Thanks
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Post by So then on Mar 30, 2020 21:50:49 GMT -5
Babylonia King Nimrod
This will give you the web site: “ Nimrods family created god the father and god the son”
It’s in Jewish historic books, some in the book of Enoch
Not particularly of value to the Hebrew people as he
was very hostile toward Abraham and tried to kill him.
There is quite a story about their rival
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Post by So then on Mar 30, 2020 21:50:59 GMT -5
Babylonia King Nimrod
This will give you the web site: “ Nimrods family created god the father and god the son”
It’s in Jewish historic books, some in the book of Enoch
Not particularly of value to the Hebrew people as he
was very hostile toward Abraham and tried to kill him.
There is quite a story about their rival
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Post by So then on Mar 31, 2020 2:28:14 GMT -5
its illogical because you do not consider that our Creator doesn’t go about looking for false gods that can’t create ,communicate, teach truth , have mercy, forgive, and Live eternal past —to future ‘when you know all , there isn’t another like Him How interesting! You did just what I was talking about!
You just "created" a "god" as an explanation for when things happen that people don't understand, -just as I stated people tend to do.Can you create a person from nothing? Yet you are claiming that I create God, when I am doing my best to discribe what He means to me? Well, I live in a house that is about 28’x60’ ~~about It has khaki colored siding , wood toned architectural shingles , 2.5 bath, 4 bedrooms, kitchen living room, garage , carport, Etc. I created a rough mental picture , alas, I did not even Build it myself , so I am not the creator of my home, I just live there! NOW , do you understand? that people that describe the Great Creator, aren’t creating a “God”, ? Now please explain why you think I did. Thanks
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2020 5:03:05 GMT -5
How interesting! You did just what I was talking about!
You just "created" a "god" as an explanation for when things happen that people don't understand, -just as I stated people tend to do. Can you create a person from nothing? Yet you are claiming that I create God, when I am doing my best to discribe what He means to me? Well, I live in a house that is about 28’x60’ ~~about It has khaki colored siding , wood toned architectural shingles , 2.5 bath, 4 bedrooms, kitchen living room, garage , carport, Etc. I created a rough mental picture , alas, I did not even Build it myself , so I am not the creator of my home, I just live there! NOW , do you understand? that people that describe the Great Creator, aren’t creating a “God”, ? Now please explain why you think I did. Thanks Yes, -I will try to explain.
Your ancestors wanted to know why certain incidents happened to them & to their world.
Not able to ascertain what the reason really was, they created a "person" as a reason; -but was a supernatural "person." So yes, -in a way they created a "person," -with the same kind of attributes as themselves because what other pattern could they have used?
However, that "person" whom they created was strong & powerful, -who could control the things that they were unable to control.
Whatever, part of the world in which they happened to live it became their "god.
To you it would be a "false" god if it were in some part of the world other than the Levant, -because YOUR god came from a small band of people who were roaming nomads in the Levant, -actually a rather small area compared to the rest of the world.
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Post by So then on Mar 31, 2020 8:14:02 GMT -5
Hmmm, hey that’s admirable that you admit that I didn’t create God! ~~ in a way , you are uncreating all the
false gods, because you claim there is no evidence for their existence? , thus were never even in the game, in your deconstruction Hey! You could go to jail for lesser crimes, couldn’ t you?
I won’t tell ! 🤐🤫🤫
Now, I hope you’re happy !
I am . Thanks
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2020 13:41:28 GMT -5
Our thoughts are way more regulated about our environment and the events that happen around us then we realize.
Because we live in certain groups we think as a group far more than we would like to admit. But because we also have a strong sense of "self" we also tend to believe that what we think is ours and is original with us.
Regulated As to how did I come to my ideas, probably because I have a lot of discussions with others, -even my own family. Don't you discuss such ideas with your own family?
Regulated thoughts..?.? how can we form critical analysis of our environment if we depend on our environment to regulate our thinking i would like to observe and react in an intelligent and intentional manner to aim toward a purpose that is of value to MRI studies of the brain have shown us that the brain decides sometimes up to 10 seconds before we are conscious of it. So that changes everything. We are the product of what our brain knows and has stored. This is how it makes rapid decisions that can keep us safe and also why we all have such different reactions to the same scene. Everything we see, even when standing side by side, is taken in by the brain and interpreted based on our life circumstances memories etc.
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Post by So then on Mar 31, 2020 15:40:05 GMT -5
Wonder how professional table tennis players react to a rapid paced Volley?
Often the placement of the volley is unpredictable and very fast .
Hmmm, we respond to questions in split second intervals?
I have read about the data that you are discussing,
I just had a few doubts along the way.
Thanks
🙂
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2020 12:45:49 GMT -5
Wonder how professional table tennis players react to a rapid paced Volley? Often the placement of the volley is unpredictable and very fast . Hmmm, we respond to questions in split second intervals? I have read about the data that you are discussing, I just had a few doubts along the way. Thanks 🙂 Well of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything else. It's how your brain functions...
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Post by Lee on Apr 1, 2020 14:00:37 GMT -5
Didn't you know the brain cheats time so then? Everyone knows that ha!
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Post by So then on Apr 1, 2020 17:46:38 GMT -5
Didn't you know the brain cheats time so then? Everyone knows that ha! To cheat or not to cheat,that is the delimna , awe my brain is what it is , I think ......(therefore iam). Perhaps
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Post by So then on Apr 1, 2020 22:00:40 GMT -5
Wonder how professional table tennis players react to a rapid paced Volley? Often the placement of the volley is unpredictable and very fast . Hmmm, we respond to questions in split second intervals? I have read about the data that you are discussing, I just had a few doubts along the way. Thanks 🙂 Well of course you do. I wouldn't expect anything else. It's how your brain functions... So the brain is completely capable of making (sometimes!) brilliant observations, and reactions to environmental issues, as time dictates , apparently independent of suspension of conscious of knowledge of the fast changing parameters that bound us in our physical materialistic frame of mind . Maybe a bit like / mind over matter, if you don’t mind, it maybe doesn’t matter ? 🤔😉😉just kidding
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 2, 2020 2:00:49 GMT -5
Hmmm, hey that’s admirable that you admit that I didn’t create God! ~~ in a way , you are uncreating all false gods, because you claim there is no evidence for their existence? , thus were never even in the game, in your deconstruction . Hey! You could go to jail for lesser crimes, couldn’t you?I won’t tell ! 🤐🤫🤫 Now, I hope you’re happy ! I am . Thanks Yes, -of course I am aware that I could go to jail, -and worse.
Do you consider that to be comical?
Something that you feel free to express in a lighthearted quip?,
If I lived in some countries even today, I could be sentenced to death in fact.
Humanists International News Date / 10 December 2013
The IHEU, (International Humanist and Ethical Union) Freedom of Thought Report 2013 on the rights, legal status, and discrimination against Humanists, atheists and the non-religious in every country in the world.
You can be put to death for expressing atheism in 13 countries
In 39 countries the law mandates a prison sentence for blasphemy, including six western countries
The non-religious are discriminated against, or outright persecuted, in most countries of the world.
A new report launching today, Tuesday, examines every country in the world for legal discrimination and human rights violations which specifically affect atheists, humanists and the non-religious.
Why would you think that I could be "happy" knowing people can die just for not believing in a god? Does that make YOU "happy?"
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Post by So then on Apr 2, 2020 2:58:09 GMT -5
Hmmm, hey that’s admirable that you admit that I didn’t create God! ~~ in a way , you are uncreating all false gods, because you claim there is no evidence for their existence? , thus were never even in the game, in your deconstruction . Hey! You could go to jail for lesser crimes, couldn’t you?I won’t tell ! 🤐🤫🤫 Now, I hope you’re happy ! I am . Thanks Yes, -of course I am aware that I could go to jail, -and worse.
Do you consider that to be comical?
Something that you feel free to express in a lighthearted quip?,
If I lived in some countries even today, I could be sentenced to death in fact.
Humanists International News Date / 10 December 2013
The IHEU, (International Humanist and Ethical Union) Freedom of Thought Report 2013 on the rights, legal status, and discrimination against Humanists, atheists and the non-religious in every country in the world.
You can be put to death for expressing atheism in 13 countries
In 39 countries the law mandates a prison sentence for blasphemy, including six western countries
The non-religious are discriminated against, or outright persecuted, in most countries of the world.
A new report launching today, Tuesday, examines every country in the world for legal discrimination and human rights violations which specifically affect atheists, humanists and the non-religious.
Why would you think that I could be "happy" knowing people can die just for not believing in a god? Does that make YOU "happy?"
you didn’t read my post ? the comic is you deconstructed “false gods”
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Post by So then on Apr 2, 2020 3:10:13 GMT -5
The true God is your Creator.
Satan believed he could outsmartie our Creator, by Hunting and stealing their (Our) natural affection for the Creator that made us ‘
Would you believe that is totally Corrupt!
Our Creator is making a wonderful plan for us to escape this Corruption, if we knew the plan, we would be blessed happily No matter what “jail” we unjustly were sentenced to .
That is the good news !
For us all.
IMO
Thanks
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 2, 2020 3:41:34 GMT -5
Yes, -of course I am aware that I could go to jail, -and worse.
Do you consider that to be comical?
Something that you feel free to express in a lighthearted quip?,
If I lived in some countries even today, I could be sentenced to death in fact.
Humanists International News Date / 10 December 2013
The IHEU, (International Humanist and Ethical Union) Freedom of Thought Report 2013 on the rights, legal status, and discrimination against Humanists, atheists and the non-religious in every country in the world.
You can be put to death for expressing atheism in 13 countries
In 39 countries the law mandates a prison sentence for blasphemy, including six western countries
The non-religious are discriminated against, or outright persecuted, in most countries of the world.
A new report launching today, Tuesday, examines every country in the world for legal discrimination and human rights violations which specifically affect atheists, humanists and the non-religious.
Why would you think that I could be "happy" knowing people can die just for not believing in a god? Does that make YOU "happy?"
you didn’t read my post ? the comic is you deconstructed “false gods” Can't be anything done about anything that doesn't exist to start with, can there?
Therefore it would it be rather impossible for me to "deconstruct" something that didn't "exist," don't you think?
However, "jails" do exist and you DID say that I could go to "jail" for what I had done whatever you want to call it, but that you wouldn't tell on me for my "crime."
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Post by So then on Apr 2, 2020 7:34:39 GMT -5
Can't be anything done about anything that doesn't exist to start with, can there?
Therefore it would it be rather impossible for me to "deconstruct" something that didn't "exist," don't you think?
However, "jails" do exist and you DID say that I could go to "jail" for what I had done whatever you want to call it, but that you wouldn't tell on me for my "crime."
Ha! And by the same token sense, you claim I created my Creator,God Which is impossible and illogical, As we know the creature cannot create the creatures Creator , aye? Now , are you saying I’m also illogical? Maybe I should have self doubts of my existence, since You claim my Creator doesn’t exist... I think , therefore iam! 🙃 Hmmm Thank you
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Infinite monkeys??😉
Guest
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Post by Infinite monkeys??😉 on May 10, 2020 8:45:48 GMT -5
So then
Give an infinite number of monkeys a hammer and nails
and instruction manual and infinite time,
and they will build a sky scraper that reaches the moon!
Hmmmm, wouldn’t they?😉.
Does this really prove monkeys don’t need to evolve, just reproduce after their own?
No thanks.
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Post by Awe on May 10, 2020 12:29:38 GMT -5
Please note (As if you may have missed it ! 😉) the “sarcasm” that such statements are conjectured as a weird proof that “given enough time, miracles will happen?”
really? Actually miracles do happen everyday!
monkeys produce monkeys , and humans produce humans ! 😳
thank you .
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Post by xna on May 10, 2020 12:56:41 GMT -5
C.S. Lewis make a "Moral Arguments for the Existence of God" The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a very good essay on this idea. Here is the link to the entire article. Below is the first few paragraphs & the conclusion. First published Thu Jun 12, 2014; substantive revision Fri Jun 29, 2018
Moral arguments for God’s existence form a diverse family of arguments that reason from some feature of morality or the moral life to the existence of God, usually understood as a morally good creator of the universe. Moral arguments are both important and interesting. They are interesting because evaluating their soundness requires attention to practically every important philosophical issue dealt with in metaethics. They are important because of their prominence in popular apologetic arguments for religious belief. Evidence for this can be found in the amazing popularity of C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity (1952), which is almost certainly the best-selling book of apologetics in the twentieth century, and which begins with a moral argument for God’s existence. Many ordinary people regard religion as in some way providing a basis or foundation for morality. This fact might seem to favor religious arguments for morality rather than moral arguments for religious belief, but if someone believes that morality is in some way “objective” or “real,” and that this moral reality requires explanation, moral arguments for God’s reality naturally suggest themselves. The apparent connection between morality and religion appears to many people to support the claim that moral truths require a religious foundation, or can best be explained by God’s existence, or some qualities or actions of God.
After some general comments about theistic arguments and a brief history of moral arguments, this essay will discuss several different forms of the moral argument. A major distinction is that between moral arguments that are theoretical in nature and practical or pragmatic arguments. The former are best thought of as arguments that begin with alleged moral facts and argue that God is necessary to explain those facts, or at least that God provides a better explanation of them than secular accounts can offer. The latter typically begin with claims about some good or end that morality requires and argue that this end is not attainable unless God exists. Whether this distinction is hard and fast will be one of the questions to be discussed, as some argue that practical arguments by themselves cannot be the basis of rational belief. To meet such concerns practical arguments may have to include a theoretical dimension as well.
1. The Goals of Theistic Arguments 2. History of Moral Arguments for God’s Existence 3. Theoretical Moral Arguments for God’s Existence and Divine Command Theories of Moral Obligation 4. Arguments from Moral Knowledge or Awareness 5. Arguments from Human Dignity or Worth 6. Practical Moral Arguments for Belief in God 7. Conclusion
7. Conclusion It seems clear that no version of the moral argument constitutes a “proof” of God’s existence. Each version contains premises that many reasonable thinkers reject. However, this does not mean the arguments have no force. One might think of each version of the argument as attempting to spell out the “cost” of rejecting the conclusion. Some philosophers will certainly be willing to pay the cost, and indeed have independent reasons for doing so. However, it would certainly be interesting and important if one became convinced that atheism required one to reject moral realism altogether, or to embrace an implausible account of how moral knowledge is acquired. For those who think that some version or versions of the arguments have force, the cumulative case for theistic belief may be raised by such arguments.
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Post by Awe on May 10, 2020 13:33:25 GMT -5
C.S. Lewis make a "Moral Arguments for the Existence of God" The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a very good essay on this idea. Here is the link to the entire article. Below is the first few paragraphs & the conclusion. First published Thu Jun 12, 2014; substantive revision Fri Jun 29, 2018
Moral arguments for God’s existence form a diverse family of arguments that reason from some feature of morality or the moral life to the existence of God, usually understood as a morally good creator of the universe. Moral arguments are both important and interesting. They are interesting because evaluating their soundness requires attention to practically every important philosophical issue dealt with in metaethics. They are important because of their prominence in popular apologetic arguments for religious belief. Evidence for this can be found in the amazing popularity of C. S. Lewis’s Mere Christianity (1952), which is almost certainly the best-selling book of apologetics in the twentieth century, and which begins with a moral argument for God’s existence. Many ordinary people regard religion as in some way providing a basis or foundation for morality. This fact might seem to favor religious arguments for morality rather than moral arguments for religious belief, but if someone believes that morality is in some way “objective” or “real,” and that this moral reality requires explanation, moral arguments for God’s reality naturally suggest themselves. The apparent connection between morality and religion appears to many people to support the claim that moral truths require a religious foundation, or can best be explained by God’s existence, or some qualities or actions of God.
After some general comments about theistic arguments and a brief history of moral arguments, this essay will discuss several different forms of the moral argument. A major distinction is that between moral arguments that are theoretical in nature and practical or pragmatic arguments. The former are best thought of as arguments that begin with alleged moral facts and argue that God is necessary to explain those facts, or at least that God provides a better explanation of them than secular accounts can offer. The latter typically begin with claims about some good or end that morality requires and argue that this end is not attainable unless God exists. Whether this distinction is hard and fast will be one of the questions to be discussed, as some argue that practical arguments by themselves cannot be the basis of rational belief. To meet such concerns practical arguments may have to include a theoretical dimension as well.
1. The Goals of Theistic Arguments 2. History of Moral Arguments for God’s Existence 3. Theoretical Moral Arguments for God’s Existence and Divine Command Theories of Moral Obligation 4. Arguments from Moral Knowledge or Awareness 5. Arguments from Human Dignity or Worth 6. Practical Moral Arguments for Belief in God 7. Conclusion
7. Conclusion It seems clear that no version of the moral argument constitutes a “proof” of God’s existence. Each version contains premises that many reasonable thinkers reject. However, this does not mean the arguments have no force. One might think of each version of the argument as attempting to spell out the “cost” of rejecting the conclusion. Some philosophers will certainly be willing to pay the cost, and indeed have independent reasons for doing so. However, it would certainly be interesting and important if one became convinced that atheism required one to reject moral realism altogether, or to embrace an implausible account of how moral knowledge is acquired. For those who think that some version or versions of the arguments have force, the cumulative case for theistic belief may be raised by such arguments.
hmmmm, so then .... does the knowledge that we human beings were “intentionally created” , mean /equate that we were indeed created intentionally? 😉 well maybe I implied the correct answer sorry JMT
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Post by xna on May 10, 2020 13:39:28 GMT -5
hmmmm, so then .... does the knowledge that
we human beings were “intentionally created” , mean /equate that we were indeed created
intentionally?
😉
well maybe I implied the correct answer
sorry
JMT I like their conclusion. 7. Conclusion
It seems clear that no version of the moral argument constitutes a “proof” of God’s existence.
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Post by Awe on May 10, 2020 15:19:54 GMT -5
hmmmm, so then .... does the knowledge that
we human beings were “intentionally created” , mean /equate that we were indeed created
intentionally?
😉
well maybe I implied the correct answer
sorry
JMT I like their conclusion. 7. Conclusion
It seems clear that no version of the moral argument constitutes a “proof” of God’s existence. Really? why do you like such an irrational conclusion? didnt Solomon say the foremost conclusion Is to “fear God/Creator , and keep those Commandments!“” (Ecclesiasties) hmmm, hey if we know He created us, does it matter if we can prove it to others? i saw someone steal something (knowledge) perhaps I can’t prove it to anyone else, yet the failure of me convincing others, doesn’t change what happened, does it ? hmmmm😉 thank you
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Post by Awe on May 10, 2020 15:30:29 GMT -5
So then, since we do exist? How do you
purport that you or i got here?
did we inherit a consciousness /(intentionality)
from a birthing process (parental cause)
or does it seem plausible that we were
created in the image of the “First Intention”
(aka: “first inheritance”)
hmmmm
thank you
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Post by xna on May 10, 2020 16:02:42 GMT -5
Really? why do you like such an irrational conclusion? didnt Solomon say the foremost conclusion Is to “fear God/Creator , and keep those Commandments!“” (Ecclesiasties) hmmm, hey if we know He created us, does it matter if we can prove it to others? i saw someone steal something (knowledge) perhaps I can’t prove it to anyone else, yet the failure of me convincing others, doesn’t change what happened, does it ? hmmmm😉 thank you You need to watch Star Trek V for that answer
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Post by Awe on May 10, 2020 16:32:33 GMT -5
Really? why do you like such an irrational conclusion? didnt Solomon say the foremost conclusion Is to “fear God/Creator , and keep those Commandments!“” (Ecclesiasties) hmmm, hey if we know He created us, does it matter if we can prove it to others? i saw someone steal something (knowledge) perhaps I can’t prove it to anyone else, yet the failure of me convincing others, doesn’t change what happened, does it ? hmmmm😉 thank you You need to watch Star Trek V for that answer What in the world are you feeding on , mr XNA? someones imaginations gone wild? No, you can rest assured , the “intentions “ of our Creator isn’t to rob us of our well being/ rationality. Rational thinking will teach us that we are made in the rational likeness of our Creator. Knowing how to be emptied of pride and all evil imaginations, and visiting the widows and fatherless in their affliction, and keeping ourselves pure. That is pure and unadulterated religion, in simplicity. imo Thank you
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