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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 22:25:40 GMT -5
These four videos detail - I mean thoroughly detail the journey to the first documentary movie in a series, Patterns of Evidence Exodus. Part 1 provides the thoughts of Tim Mahoney, including the crisis of faith he experienced from his first investigation in Egypt in which he was faced with the common skepticism that denies any Exodus of Israel out of Egypt - indeed that Israel was never in Egypt, based upon a Ramses 11 time frame of the "pious fiction" of the Exodus account in the Bible. These four videos are the starting point of the whole investigation that began in 2001 with Tim hearing about the Red Sea crossing and then going to Egypt with the idea of producing a film about the Exodus. This is just an overview of Part 1 to around time stamp 18:33. Patterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl - Part 1 - The Journey (1:43) www.youtube.com/watch?v=RohPpQRKHSs&list=PLK2XTPJF5tvUJ5BB0Ubys3Z1Ubj6ygIaw&index=2Patterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl - Part 2 - The Evidence (1:53) www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C618MkFej8&list=PLK2XTPJF5tvUJ5BB0Ubys3Z1Ubj6ygIaw&index=4&t=0sPatterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl - Part 3 - Fairytale or History? (2:12) www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxpydrE_4X8&list=PLK2XTPJF5tvUJ5BB0Ubys3Z1Ubj6ygIaw&index=11&t=0sAccording to this video, “Ramesses” is the Greek form of the Egyptian name (Coronation name “Usermaatre-setepenre”) “Washmuariya-shatapnariya” which in common Egyptian conversation would be a shortened “Shisha.” And that is getting very close to the Biblical “Shishak” -- there was a change in ancient writing with the equivalent to the letter “k” during the time that Exodus of the Bible was written. This is all laid out in great detail by David Rohl in the video. And what is most significant is that the early discovery of how to read hieroglyphics (from the Rosetta stone) FALSE assumption based upon pronunciation more than anything else equated “Shishak” as the same Pharaoh as “Shoshenk.” Pharaoh Shoshenk ruled in the Middle Kingdom, not the New Kingdom of Ramesses II. Patterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl - Part 4 - Q&A (1:00) www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUDep5GFMLQ&list=PLK2XTPJF5tvUJ5BB0Ubys3Z1Ubj6ygIaw&index=12&t=0s
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 22:58:47 GMT -5
The Documentary Movie, Patterns of Evidence Exodus
Product Description
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Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is an award-winning documentary by filmmaker Timothy Mahoney that chronicles an in-depth archaeological investigation in Egypt as his team attempts to corroborate the biblical text. The film explores one fundamental question: Is there any evidence that the Exodus story actually happened? Twelve years in the making, this provocative documentary reveals new or rarely seen evidence regarding the Israelites descent into slavery, their Exodus from Egypt and their ultimate conquest of the Promised Land. Although many scholars and archaeologists deny the validity of the Exodus story for lack of proof, Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus builds a case that sheds new light on the story
Review
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Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is a thought-provoking and relevant movie! Filmmaker Timothy Mahoney takes on the hot potato of Biblical history the Exodus and matches it up against what archaeologists, historians and naysayers have to say about the Bible s accuracy. Kevin Sorbo narrates this documentary that focuses on digging for the truth (no pun intended). Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel, comments that the Bible has held the imaginations of people for thousands of years and that is a remarkable thing. Other political and religious leaders and archaeologists are featured, including Shimon Peres, former president of Israel, who says the Bible is the greatest legislator of our time. Mahoney finds that there is little archaeological evidence of the Exodus during the time of Ramesses, who most historians believe was the Pharaoh who spoke with Moses and initially refused to let God's people go. Yet when Mahoney backtracks to the Middle Kingdom, some 200 years earlier, the evidence is pretty impressive. Do the other scholars have the time frame wrong? There is controversy in the documentary for sure. Different leaders disagree with each other. Rabbi David Wolpe frankly states the Exodus didn't happen as the Bible depicts it, and archaeologist Norma Franklin from the University of Haifa doesn't believe it happened at all. Yet there are many who believe it did happen; there are also diggings that some believe prove the walls of Jericho fell, and that Rahab's quarters did not fall. There is evidence Jericho was burned as the Bible says it was. Professor Rosalie David from the University of Manchester speaks of the sudden abandonment of a people that would resemble the Hebrews and their Exodus. In one place a tablet with the name Jabin is found; he was the king that Joshua killed. The documentary features art work, several historians and archaeologists, religious leaders, and scenes featuring views of tablets and various ruins in Egypt. I just wanted to know the truth, says Mahoney, and he went to a lot of trouble trying to find it. This documentary chronicles his travels from the U.S. to Egypt, to Israel and to England. The movie finishes with Mahoney reading a rare book written by Alan Gardiner, who concludes that not enough evidence has been found to pin down certain Biblical events to definite time frames. This could support the possibility that the Middle Kingdom is the age of the Exodus, rather than the later time of Ramesses. At any rate, this film attempts to navigate the sometimes murky waters of history. We are happy to award this documentary, Patterns of Exodus: The Exodus, our Faith-Friendly Seal for all ages, although it is not intended for the very young who would have a hard time understanding it. For everyone else, it will be a fascinating look into a great moment in history and in archaeology: the exodus of Moses and the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage. -- Focus on the Family
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:10:07 GMT -5
Thread progress notesDavid Rohl Official Blog
An Alternative to the Velikovskian Chronology of Ancient Egypt
davidrohl.blogspot.com/ Excerpt quote Note: I am reproducing this paper here to 'fill in' a missing chapter in the early development of the New Chronology. Research on the NC began in the late 1970s when I took my ideas for a revised chronology of pharaonic Egypt to Peter James, who was at that time working on the 'Glasgow Chronology' (a modification of the chronological revision proposed by Immanuel Velikovsky). This began several years of joint research between Rohl and James which resulted in the chronological model outlined below. Subsequently Rohl and James developed independent variations of this basic model with Rohl continuing to argue for Ramesses II as the biblical Shishak, whilst James opted for Ramesses III as the pharaoh who plundered the treasures of Solomon's temple. I felt it would be useful to republish the 'first outing' of the New Chronology theory here since the original paper is difficult to find. It also serves to put the record straight about when and how the revision of the Third Intermediate Period took shape.
A Preview of Some Recent Work in the Field of Ancient History
By David Rohl & Peter James
SIS Workshop, vol. 5, no. 2, 1982/83
For some years now a number of the Society’s historians have been endeavouring to provide a new model for ancient Near Eastern chronology in an attempt to answer the criticisms levelled at Velikovsky’s work in Ages in Chaos, Ramses II and His Time and Peoples of the Sea. The original imaginative concept of Velikovsky’s reconstruction has run into serious problems with regard to the method by which the so-called ‘phantom years’ are eliminated from the conventional (and apparently extended) history of the region. Very few of the Society’s members would now be prepared to stand by the revision put forward in Ramses II and His Time and Peoples of the Sea although there is still a strong feeling that Ages in Chaos remains a true picture for the period of Egyptian history prior to the end of the 18th Dynasty. unquote
davidrohl.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2012-09-13T10:19:00-07:00&max-results=7 Excerpt:
quote Monday, September 10, 2012
Book Review
REVIEW ARTICLE ON DAVID ROHL’S WORK
FOR NEW LIFE MAGAZINE, MELBOURNE by Anthony van der Elst (Chairman of the Institute for the Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences)
The Old Testament is pure myth. There were no Israelites in Egypt. Moses never existed. The Exodus never happened. Joshua and the Israelites did not conquer the Promised Land. There was no mighty warrior-king called David, and though Solomon might have been an impoverished tribal chieftain he was certainly no merchant prince with a high-born Egyptian wife. This was the view of modern scholarship at the beginning of the 1990s.
Little archaeological evidence was accepted as corroborating biblical stories, and for most of the last 200 years the academic trend had been to reduce the value of the Old Testament from historically useful narrative to worthless fiction. The most published, most translated, most famous writings were no better than Harry Potter and any scholar with the temerity to suggest that they were even a potential source of real history was derided as a crank. … But things were about to change.
In 1992 an assertive academic, Professor Thomas L. Thompson of Copenhagen University, published a book proclaiming the uselessness of the Bible to historical research, confidently denying the existence of such figures as David and Solomon. Within a few months, however, he learned that Professor Avraham Biran, excavating Tel Dan in northern Israel, had discovered fragments of a stela, probably dating to late 8th century BC, which referred to the 'House of David'. The myth was fighting back. unquote
Patterns of Evidence Exodus was released on AUGUST 4, 2015. And the production company, Thinking Man Films, now offers a series of videos, including, The Moses Controversy - trailer at patternsofevidence.com/moses/and The Red Sea Miracle - trailer at patternsofevidence.com/redsea/Youtube links Thinker Update: The Moses Controversy www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPAttZ7YjC4Searching for The Lost Sea of the Exodus – Thinker Update 27 www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CgMGowftDsPatterns of Evidence Exodus I have watched the Patterns of Evidence Exodus and can tell 2x2/visitors that it deserves its award. One point comes through to me very clearly and that is that skeptics are skeptics by choice, not because there is no evidence for the Exodus and not because they have no choice. Ramses 11 was not the Pharoah of the Exodus - An unexplained (by Egyptian documentation) major shift of Egyptian wealth into the Pharoah's hands occurred during the reign of Amenemhat in the 1800s BC, which at least fits explanation within the time of the seven years of famine in which Joseph sold stocked up grain for the Pharoah - and evidence shows that by Pharoah Ramses 11 (1400s BC) Israel was already established in Canaan. So the popularly accepted scholarly time frame of the Exodus is far too late to find any evidence during that time frame for an Exodus -- no wonder many scholars doubt that any Exodus happened - but they are correct, during the time of Ramses 11, there is no evidence of an Exodus. But during the 1800s plenty of evidence is found explained by an Exodus. patternsofevidence.com/quote Timothy Mahoney is an award-winning investigative filmmaker, raised as a Christian, who now has the same question that many today are asking: Did the stories recorded in the Bible really happen? In this film series, he sets off to seek answers by traveling to the locations where biblical events are said to have happened. Along the way, he interviews leading archaeologists and scholars from all over the world who argue all sides of the debate about the credibility of the Bible. The biblical stories are retold, accompanied by dramatic reenactments and special effects. Patterns of Evidence lets the viewer draw their own conclusions as it takes them on a journey to the ancient world of the Bible. This refreshingly balanced approach is inspiring and intellectually challenging for both skeptics and believers alike, providing profound new evidence that affirms the Bible.
Thinking Man Films is the production company for the Patterns of Evidence film series and television programs. Thinking Man Media is the book publishing, curriculum development, and distribution company for Patterns of Evidence media. unquote patternsofevidence.com/journey/patternsofevidence.com/blog/patternsofevidence.com/2020/01/17/hunt-for-miracle-at-the-sea/I have now watched the second movie, "The Moses Controversy". It builds somewhat upon the first movie about the Exodus - this time thoroughly investigating the Biblical claim that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, for which claim there is no lack of evidence. MANFRED BIETAK Egyptologist – University of Vienna From 1966-69 and 1975-2009, Bietak was the director of the Austrian excavations at Tell El-Dab’a, the eastern Nile site identified as Avaris. Here he found evidence of a massive Semitic population including a unique pyramid-style tomb of a western Asiatic official. Bietak was the founder and Director of the Austrian Archaeological Institute in Cairo from 1973-2009 and has written dozens of important papers, many on the Hyksos period in Egypt. GLEN FRITZ Environmental Geographer – Author ‘The Lost Sea of the Exodus’ A former surgeon, Fritz obtained a PhD in Environmental Geography as part of his quest to investigate the biblical exodus from Egypt. Realizing that the location of the miraculous sea crossing was not only a historical mystery, but the chief clue for the route to Mount Sinai, Fritz pursued the topic for his 2006 doctoral dissertation, entitled The Lost Sea of the Exodus. He has also published The Exodus Mysteries: of Midian, Sinai & Jabal al-Lawz (2019). BARRY BEITZEL Old Testament scholar, geographer, and cartographer – Author ‘Moody Bible Atlas’ Beitzel has been professor of Old Testament and Semitic Languages at Trinity Evangelical University since 1983. A recognized leader in his field, he specializes in biblical geography and cartography. His award-winning mapwork appears in many of today’s most popular Bibles, encyclopedias and atlases. He also served as senior translator for the New Living Translation, the Historical Books. TIM MAHONEY Investigative Filmmaker, Author ‘Patterns of Evidence – A Filmmaker’s Journey’ Mahoney has been searching for evidence matching the Bible for nearly 20 years. After a long career in the media industry, he established Thinking Man Films, which released its first feature documentary film Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus in 2015. This film was the winner of multiple awards in film festivals across the country. Patterns of Evidence: The Moses Controversy was released in 2019. patternsofevidence.com/redsea/Unpacking the Moses Controversy - NehemiasWall.comwww.youtube.com/watch?v=_RxxLlZD1-4&list=PLK2XTPJF5tvUJ5BB0Ubys3Z1Ubj6ygIaw&index=8The Moses Controversy Did Moses Write the Torah? (New Evidence) Tim Mahoney Interview Underground111 www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgCIlucqpPIThe Moses Controversy - Michael Rood interview with Tim Mahoney - 1/4 - Searching for the Story www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDrkYuj2wFgThe Moses Controversy - Michael Rood interview with Tim Mahoney - 2/4 - The Layers of Controversy www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_UdOeEtiQEThe Moses Controversy - Michael Rood interview with Tim Mahoney - 3/4 - Facedown in the Desert www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH3TWQrAgacThe Moses Controversy - Michael Rood interview with Tim Mahoney - 4/4 - The Disease of Unbelief www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkVHjFdhScUPatterns of Evidence: The Red Sea Miracle Part 1 & 2 (release dates in Feb & May 2020)Tim Mahoney investigates one of the greatest miracles of the Bible. Did a mighty sea split? What secrets will be revealed? After leaving Egypt, the Bible describes the Israelites crossing a deep sea that was miraculously split with walls of water on their right and left. When the Egyptians and their chariot force pursued, the water came crashing back down to destroy the entire army. Are miracles of this kind even possible? Skeptics contend that no evidence has ever been found for huge numbers of people crossing the wilderness or a mighty sea. Does the lack of evidence at the traditional sites mean the events didn’t happen, or might we have been looking in wrong places all along? Join Timothy Mahoney in the next chapter of the series as he retraces the steps of Moses and the Israelites, looking for answers in Patterns of Evidence: The Red Sea Miracle Part 1 & 2. Hear ideas from all sides of the debate as you journey back to the lands of the Bible in search of answers to one of the Bible’s biggest mysteries; where is the lost sea of the Exodus, and what really happened there? Can a patterns approach help to solve the problem? patternsofevidence.com/redsea/Egyptology vs the Bible - amazing evidence of biblical eventswww.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ8BbW31CxQExcerpt Sir Alan Gardner (Egyptologist) “It must never be forgotten that we are dealing with a civilization thousands of years old and one of which only tiny remanants have survived. What is proudly advertised as Egyptian history is merely a collection of rags and tatters.” A History of Israel Part 1 - From Abraham to the Time of the Judges www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZC042agNLkA History of Israel Part 2 From Saul to the Jewish Exile www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqs2hCdGuQwA History of Israel Part 3 From the Jewish Exile to the End of the Apostolic Era www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRgn4XPbWs0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:10:29 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:10:45 GMT -5
Study Notes
Notes on Patterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl Part 2 (time stamp 1:39:37) Khaneferre Sobechotep IV – the Pharaoh who raised Moses. Dudimose, 40th king of 13th dynasty - the Pharaoh of the Exodus.
Reigning at the time of Joseph's famine in Egypt Senuseret III (father of) Amenemhat III
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:10:57 GMT -5
Information from other sourcesEvidence from the Bible:While re-watching Patterns of Evidence Exodus (the documentary movie) I was motivated to look up Exodus 1:11 where the Bible contains the name “Ramesses” in my NET Bible translation in order to read what the translators had to say about “Ramesses” - bearing in mind the release of the NET Bible translation was in 1995. Here it is – backing up that Rameses II could not be the Pharaoh of the Exodus, as the Bible's text indicated thousands of years ago – and that backs up the documentary movie's information that the period of Rameses II is TOO LATE for the Exodus - 6 years prior to the Patterns of Evidence. Exodus 1:11 (NET Bible) 1:11 So they put foremen26 over the Israelites27 to oppress28 them with hard labor. As a result29 they built Pithom and Rameses30 as store cities for Pharaoh. 1:12 But the more the Egyptians31 oppressed them, the more they multiplied and spread.32 As a result the Egyptians loathed33 the Israelites, 1:13 and they34 made the Israelites serve rigorously.35 1:14 They made their lives bitter36 by37 hard service with mortar and bricks and by all kinds of service38 in the fields. Every kind of service the Israelites were required to give was rigorous.39 Translators note 30 30sn Many scholars assume that because this city was named Rameses, the Pharaoh had to be Rameses II, and hence that a late date for the exodus (and a late time for the sojourn in Egypt) is proved. But if the details of the context are taken as seriously as the mention of this name, this cannot be the case. If one grants for the sake of discussion that Rameses II was on the throne and oppressing Israel, it is necessary to note that Moses is not born yet. It would take about twenty or more years to build the city, then eighty more years before Moses appears before Pharaoh (Rameses), and then a couple of years for the plagues – this man would have been Pharaoh for over a hundred years. That is clearly not the case for the historical Rameses II. But even more determining is the fact that whoever the Pharaoh was for whom the Israelites built the treasure cities, he died before Moses began the plagues. The Bible says that when Moses grew up and killed the Egyptian, he fled from Pharaoh (whoever that was) and remained in exile until he heard that that Pharaoh had died. So this verse cannot be used for a date of the exodus in the days of Rameses, unless many other details in the chapters are ignored. If it is argued that Rameses was the Pharaoh of the oppression, then his successor would have been the Pharaoh of the exodus. Rameses reigned from 1304 b.c. until 1236 and then was succeeded by Merneptah. That would put the exodus far too late in time, for the Merneptah stela refers to Israel as a settled nation in their land. One would have to say that the name Rameses in this chapter may either refer to an earlier king, or, more likely, reflect an updating in the narrative to name the city according to its later name (it was called something else when they built it, but later Rameses finished it and named it after himself [see B. Jacob, Exodus, 14]). For further discussion see G. L. Archer, “An 18th Dynasty Ramses,” JETS 17 (1974): 49-50; and C. F. Aling, “The Biblical City of Ramses,” JETS 25 (1982): 129-37. Furthermore, for vv. 11-14, see K. A. Kitchen, “From the Brick Fields of Egypt,” TynBul 27 (1976): 137-47. The Patterns of Exodus documentary gives the anti-dated city name "Avaris."
Evidence from Historical Ignorance
One point stands out vividly in regard to the reason for the difficulty in locating any sea of the Exodus as described in the Bible and that point is that maps of past times did not include the Gulf of Aqaba. QuoteMost of these difficulties stem from preconceptions that are not based on the biblical account. The lack of an Exodus tradition for the Gulf of Aqaba is also raised as an objection. However, the lack of tradition is easily explained by its virtual absence from history and maps until the 19th century AD. A prime example is the 1544 representation of the Red Sea by Battista (Figure 1), which fails to portray the bifurcated head of the Red Sea that defines the modern Sinai Peninsula. This geographical ignorance can be traced to the longstanding reliance on the Classical Greek Geography, which omitted the Gulf of Aqaba. Its exploration and use was limited throughout history due to its navigation dangers, isolation, and lack of commercial utility. In essence, Bible scholars did not associate Yam Suph with the Gulf of Aqaba because it was missing from their maps! Unquote Ancient ExodusGeographical Biblical Exodus Researchby Dr. Glen Fritz ancientexodus.com/the-sea-of-exodus/The Egyptian Genesis - David Rohlwww.youtube.com/watch?v=rztoP8WeI80 Proof of Mount Sinai in Arabiaancientexodus.com/proof-of-mount-sinai-in-arabia/Excerpt quote Proof of Mount Sinai in Arabia The location of Mount Sinai was clearly explained in the 4th century AD by Christian scholar, Eusebius of Caesarea (AD 260/265-339/340) and reiterated by theologian Saint Jerome (ca. AD 347-420) (Eusebius et al. 2003). In modern terms, they placed it east of the Gulf of Aqaba in northwest Saudi Arabia, in the vicinity of ancient Midian. Eusebius recorded that Madiam (Midian)– unquote
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:11:08 GMT -5
First, in the post above I have presented the Evidence from the Bible that the Exodus occurred earlier than the Ramesses II period still DEMANDED by some archaeologists, who then dismiss any Exodus (and the Bible with it) based upon THEIR lack of finding evidence during the Ramesses II period. That is something like losing a coin in ones own living room and insisting upon trotting off to third-neighbor's house to search for it. Here I will present some evidence presented for Pastors on Thinking Man Films from interviews provided on Thinking Man Films website. TRAILERS & VIDEOS (please don't miss the playable video on this page) pastors.patternsofevidence.com/trailer-videos/STORY SYNOPSISpastors.patternsofevidence.com/story-synopsis/FILM PURPOSEpastors.patternsofevidence.com/film-purpose/AWARDSpastors.patternsofevidence.com/awards/A word of advice to any 2x2/visitor:
Beyond this point on this thread, with few exceptions, is TMB Babylon full of 'wolves' who have one aim - to tear down any faith you might have left after 2x2ism read there informed upfront.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:12:34 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:13:10 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 23:15:09 GMT -5
You are fortunate, the administrator appears to be asleep at the wheel
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 25, 2020 23:20:23 GMT -5
😜😜😃😳 Still trying to control what people see @gratu !!! Reminds me of something ....oh thats right you are doing the very thing you accuse the 2x2s of doing !!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 26, 2020 0:35:03 GMT -5
Help! I'm holding my breath.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2020 3:36:41 GMT -5
Having watched two of the other videos presented here as ‘evidence’ which turned out to be farcical, one can’t help but wonder what new evidence to support the truth of the bible could possibly be presented in these. An old sandal found at the top of Mount Everest which is claimed to have fallen from the foot of Jesus as he ascended over it on his way up to heaven? A rib of an antelope somewhere in the Middle East which is claimed to be the rib of Adam from an early attempt by God to create Eve that went wrong? An old pierce of cloth found under a rock which is claimed to be the sling with which David shot Goliath? Based on the Egyptian chariot wheel fiasco anything is now possible such is the desperation of fundamentalist Christians to provide evidence that isn’t there. Matt10
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Post by rational on Jan 26, 2020 11:04:11 GMT -5
I believe this is the most sense you have made.
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Post by rational on Jan 26, 2020 11:14:02 GMT -5
😜😜😃😳 Still trying to control what people see @gratu !!! Reminds me of something ....oh thats right you are doing the very thing you accuse the 2x2s of doing !!! “Still trying to control what people see gratu !!! “ That is YOUR tale anyway, no matter what, come hell or high water. But the simple fact is that YOU or anyone else can post your heart out with anything that's on your mind any time you like on any thread you like with evident impunity if what is on your mind and put in your posts has diddly to do witth the thread topics – Some background material for the enlightenment of your visitors.
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Post by rational on Jan 26, 2020 11:16:47 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2020 9:38:37 GMT -5
Patterns of Evidence Exodus with Tim Mahoney and David Rohl - Part 1 - The Journey A number of people have purchased these videos. Some even reviewed the presentations. An Alternative View of Egyptian and Israelite History Which Makes Too Many Leaps classicalsteve12 October 2015 As an amateur historian, I know when there is sufficient grounds to make an historical claim from evidence and when the claim is "reaching", drawing conclusions to fit preconceived notions. In other words, when "historians" try to prove something they already believe in advance, we should gently question whether their conclusions may be colored by bias. There's a difference between an historian who attempts to find out how Ancient Egyptians lived versus trying to prove the biblical accounts regarding the Hebrews and the Egyptians are true. If they find evidence which might "fit" into their overall perspective, and they make claims which rely mostly upon interpretation of the evidence rather than what the evidence itself suggests, this is regarded as borderline or even bad scholarship, also called "confirmation bias".
The documentary "Patterns of Evidence" seeks to prove whether the Exodus of the Bible is a true event, since the Bible must be taken literally, or so the central figure/narrator claims. (The reading of biblical texts as factual accounts is a gross misunderstanding of the texts.) At the beginning of the documentary, devout Christian filmmaker Tim Mahoney decides to find out if there is evidence to prove the historicity of the Exodus. In the first few minutes, Mahoney travels to the Eastern Mediterranean and meets Manfred Beitak, an Austrian Egyptologist and archaeologist who is excavating an ancient Semite town, Avaris. Mahoney, upon examining the excavation hypothesizes this could be the Israelite settlement given the Pharaoh's blessing in passages relating the life of the Patriarch Joseph of the "Coat of Many Colors". Mahoney makes this suggestion to Beitak, and the archaeologist responds that to connect this village with the biblical account is a "very weak affair". In other words, Beitak cannot conclude the town is the same one as depicted in the Bible. Mahoney becomes disappointed, and the whole experience puts into question his faith, because, as he sees it, the Bible must be true history otherwise his own faith might be based on a "lie".
He returns to the United States and then decides to take up the quest again at a more involved level. He begins by finding historians who have alternative theories which match his own beliefs. This is the first major problem with the documentary. Certainly, anyone can find "historians" and/or "scholars" who have views which contradict mainstream scholarship. While certainly there is nothing wrong with interviewing people who disagree with the larger academic and scholarly community and who voice their disagreements with a different rationale, I felt the documentary was completely unbalanced after Beitak's skepticism. Mahoney only seems to be interested with those scholars on the outside of modern scholarship who wish to make the case that current Egyptian scholarship is "flawed" and that the Bible and Egyptian chronology do in fact match but requires a complete rethinking Egyptian history, known as the "New Chronology".
Shortly thereafter, Mahoney interviews David Rohl, a highly controversial figure in Ancient Egyptian studies. Rohl has proposed a so-called "New Chronology", an alternative view of the chronological events and dates of Ancient Egypt. He claims the town of Avaris is called "The Land of Ramses" in the Bible, and the confusion comes because a biblical editor at some time used the term "Land of Ramses" to depict Avaris. He believes mainstream scholarship is completely incorrect in terms of Egyptian Chronology. While, I have no problem with hearing Rohl's rationale (which would at face value put into question the idea of the Bible as unerring history), there is no counter figure who explains the mainstream view. The only words we get from Beitak at the beginning is that the hypothesis is a "weak affair", but we don't hear the rest of the interview as to why he questions Rohl and others who work on the "outside".
At Avaris, there has been found the remains of a large statue inside a small pyramid structure of a prominent person, probably a great leader. Now, I do agree, the evidence does suggest the prominent person is a Semite and not an Egyptian because of the hairstyle. However, the documentary wants to prove that this may be in fact Joseph of "The Coat of Many Colours" fame from the Bible. They point to some faded paint on the remains of the statue's shoulder which they claim are remains of a depiction of a colored coat! This is really reaching. Some flecks of paint are not enough to jump to the conclusion this is the Coat of Many Colours and therefore Joseph! It could simply be the remains of the depiction of royal robes, since red as a royal color goes back millennium. Also, the documentary says that 12 graves were found near the statue, which could be the 12 tribes of Israel. Yes, it could be, but again, to conclude the existence of twelve graves means that these represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel as fact is a huge leap. If there were Hebrew inscriptions attesting to such, then that would be compelling evidence. As it stands, what we have are the remains of a statue and the remains of twelve graves, which would not be enough to compel academia to concur with Mahoney's hypotheses.
The statue remains at Avaris and the conclusions drawn are just a few of the problems with how this documentary is making its claims. It takes some evidence, then looks at the Bible, sees if they match, and then draws conclusions. There was no evidence outside of interpretation Avaris was an Israelite town once having been led by the Biblical Joseph. What they needed were other scholars to explain why some of the conclusions drawn were not accepted by mainstream historians. I am sure people who believe the world is flat could also find a few convincing "scholars" who make very convincing arguments about their views. Much of what is presented as "fact" is really simply "opinion" disguised as fact.
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2020 9:41:38 GMT -5
The Documentary Movie, Patterns of Evidence Exodus Product Description ==================== Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is an award-winning documentary by filmmaker Timothy Mahoney that chronicles an in-depth archaeological investigation in Egypt as his team attempts to corroborate the biblical text. The film explores one fundamental question: Is there any evidence that the Exodus story actually happened? Twelve years in the making, this provocative documentary reveals new or rarely seen evidence regarding the Israelites descent into slavery, their Exodus from Egypt and their ultimate conquest of the Promised Land. Although many scholars and archaeologists deny the validity of the Exodus story for lack of proof, Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus builds a case that sheds new light on the story Review ======= Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus is a thought-provoking and relevant movie! Filmmaker Timothy Mahoney takes on the hot potato of Biblical history the Exodus and matches it up against what archaeologists, historians and naysayers have to say about the Bible s accuracy. Kevin Sorbo narrates this documentary that focuses on digging for the truth (no pun intended). Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister of Israel, comments that the Bible has held the imaginations of people for thousands of years and that is a remarkable thing. Other political and religious leaders and archaeologists are featured, including Shimon Peres, former president of Israel, who says the Bible is the greatest legislator of our time. Mahoney finds that there is little archaeological evidence of the Exodus during the time of Ramesses, who most historians believe was the Pharaoh who spoke with Moses and initially refused to let God's people go. Yet when Mahoney backtracks to the Middle Kingdom, some 200 years earlier, the evidence is pretty impressive. Do the other scholars have the time frame wrong? There is controversy in the documentary for sure. Different leaders disagree with each other. Rabbi David Wolpe frankly states the Exodus didn't happen as the Bible depicts it, and archaeologist Norma Franklin from the University of Haifa doesn't believe it happened at all. Yet there are many who believe it did happen; there are also diggings that some believe prove the walls of Jericho fell, and that Rahab's quarters did not fall. There is evidence Jericho was burned as the Bible says it was. Professor Rosalie David from the University of Manchester speaks of the sudden abandonment of a people that would resemble the Hebrews and their Exodus. In one place a tablet with the name Jabin is found; he was the king that Joshua killed. The documentary features art work, several historians and archaeologists, religious leaders, and scenes featuring views of tablets and various ruins in Egypt. I just wanted to know the truth, says Mahoney, and he went to a lot of trouble trying to find it. This documentary chronicles his travels from the U.S. to Egypt, to Israel and to England. The movie finishes with Mahoney reading a rare book written by Alan Gardiner, who concludes that not enough evidence has been found to pin down certain Biblical events to definite time frames. This could support the possibility that the Middle Kingdom is the age of the Exodus, rather than the later time of Ramesses. At any rate, this film attempts to navigate the sometimes murky waters of history. We are happy to award this documentary, Patterns of Exodus: The Exodus, our Faith-Friendly Seal for all ages, although it is not intended for the very young who would have a hard time understanding it. For everyone else, it will be a fascinating look into a great moment in history and in archaeology: the exodus of Moses and the Hebrews from Egyptian bondage. -- Focus on the Family Another review from someone who purchased the videos: A Futile, Apologetic Attempt MrKaya15 September 2017
In 2001, archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman published a seminal book titled The Bible Unearthed. Citing both textual and archaeological evidence, the authors demonstrated the inaccuracies of the historical accounts in the Old Testament. Four years later, the eponymous documentary visualized the contents of the book. In interviews that took place in some of the actual excavation sites, the authors mentioned the capabilities of modern exploration technologies, and explained to the viewers the breadth of existing evidence against Biblical narratives.
About a decade later, Tim Mahoney's Patterns of Evidence (2014) is released. The documentary attempts to counter Finkelstein and Silberman's arguments. However, it neither presents any new evidence nor proposes an alternative framework that would allow us to view the existing evidence through new lenses. Instead, it follows a quite common but utterly unscientific method: it refuses to hear what a large body of literature almost unanimously tells us, and tries to confirm the Biblical narratives by putting together bits and pieces of evidence that is circumstantial at best.
In the end, we are left with a production that is a typical example of dogmatic thinking. Scientific thinking is simple: "I want an answer to my question. Let's see what the evidence indicates." In contrast, dogmatic thinking puts the cart before the horse: "I already have the answer, and now I must find some evidence that supports it." Sadly, many people are not sufficiently equipped to notice the invalidity of the latter way of thinking, and conclude that this an ongoing debate. Some others are happy, as such apologetic works reaffirm their beliefs - if not by the "evidence" they put together, then by underlining the possibility that some new findings in the future may prove the Biblical account correct.
Nothing new here... "If you hold a belief because you think you should, over time you'll convince yourself it's true." (Peter Boghossian)
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2020 9:45:38 GMT -5
Reviews from people who viewed the videos Scientifically Irresponsible larsumms20 January 2015
The movie was well done and entertaining. In terms of science, it was horrible. The premise is that since we have not found any evidence of Biblical history in the Late Bronze period, let's look in the Middle period. The Late Bronze period was used for 1000 years because the Bible states the Pharoah's name as Ramases. The movie offers no reason against this, and just looks centuries earlier than Ramases anyway.
The movie visits an archaeological dig on Avaris Egypt. They interview a European Professor that has worked this dig for 20 years. The Professor says that there is absolutely no evidence for the Bible history at this site. Then the movie shows computer graphics of overwhelming evidence of not just Isrealites, but Joseph of Egypt himself. There is no live video or pictures when they do this. It is all HD computer graphics, meaning that it is artwork, not evidence. I was shocked that he had done this.
The only thing credible in this movie is Jericho. They show live video, and quote the British Kenyon findings. Jericho does appear to have happened as described in the Bible, but centuries earlier than described in the Bible.
The final statement of the movie is that the Egyptian calendar needs to be shifted to match the Bible Calendar. This is not going to happen because the Egyptian calendar is based on scientific findings. So nothing new is said in this movie.
The lies presented as archaeological evidence are new. This isn't the first time a Christian has provided fabricated evidence of Bible History, and he will make money and fame for awhile. Shame on him.
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Post by snow on Feb 7, 2020 14:17:22 GMT -5
Why should anything be changed to match the bible calendar?
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Post by rational on Feb 7, 2020 15:46:29 GMT -5
“The final statement of the movie is that the Egyptian calendar needs to be shifted to match the Bible Calendar.” The final statement in the movie is, “Was I willing to follow this story to where it really led? But there is something in these ancient stories and we just felt that – you know what – we just had to let people know what the truth is." See for yourself in this movie end transcript: “Are these findings just an exaggeration? Or is looking for the Exodus at the earlier date the key step in bringing the Bible out of the shelves of men and into the light of true history? People wonder why they haven't heard this before. What I found out was that a lot of people don't want to talk about it – Archaeologists – people in the media – no one's willing to actually tell this story, and I had to ask the same question of myself. Was I willing to follow this story to where it really led? But there is something in these ancient stories and we just felt that – you know what – we just had to let people know what the truth is.” I is possible that the phrase 'final statement' did not mean 'final sentence'. Picasso's Guernica makes a statement without a single word. It could be argued that Edvard Munch's The Scream makes different statements on several levels. The video you linked could have made several statements because the creator was not encumbered with the need to provide any proof for claims made. Is it possible to force anyone to believe anything? But that does not excuse telling falsehoods and pretending they are true. You should also instruct people to look at the work of Ron Wyatt for foundational information. Possible. Did you check? And from that link, this review is enough to tickle my armpit hairs because it shows that my purpose for posting this information on this board for 2x2/visitors has already showed up for this reviewer: That was five years ago. Since that time the errors in the claims made in the videos have been made known. What feedback do you get from your 2x2/visitors?
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Post by rational on Feb 7, 2020 20:13:43 GMT -5
I said this to you before rational, so once again I repeat, "You are very welcome to act just as dum as you like." See ya round - or square - whichever ya are at any given time. What makes you think I am acting?
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Post by snow on Feb 16, 2020 15:13:06 GMT -5
Temporary bump so I can find it Why don't you just bookmark it? Why waste space?
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Post by rational on Feb 16, 2020 17:13:25 GMT -5
Temporary bump so I can find it Why don't you just bookmark it? Why waste space? Good point. Maybe a skill to aquire.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 22, 2020 4:15:20 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting about those videos called "Patterns of Evidence" This the message they post along with the videos as an invitation to Christian "pastors"
Dear Pastor, Welcome to the Pastor’s Portal for our film Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus. Here you will find resources that you can use to introduce your congregation to this exciting documentary film. In addition, prepared sermons and notes will be available should you wish to conduct a sermon about this topic. This film explores one foundational question: Is there any evidence to support the Exodus story? We ask that question because the story of the Exodus, and the book from which it comes, is under attack. The evidence against the Exodus appears to be so strong that even some within the church are labeling this account as historical fiction. This film provides an answer to the mystery of why there has been a lack of evidence for the ancient accounts found in the Bible. We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. Enjoy the journey.
Doesn't that indicate that they are not really interested in telling the truth but only twisting their findings to support their own beliefs?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 4:18:25 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting about those videos called "Patterns of Evidence" This the message they post along with the videos as an invitation to Christian "pastors"
Dear Pastor, Welcome to the Pastor’s Portal for our film Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus. Here you will find resources that you can use to introduce your congregation to this exciting documentary film. In addition, prepared sermons and notes will be available should you wish to conduct a sermon about this topic. This film explores one foundational question: Is there any evidence to support the Exodus story? We ask that question because the story of the Exodus, and the book from which it comes, is under attack. The evidence against the Exodus appears to be so strong that even some within the church are labeling this account as historical fiction. This film provides an answer to the mystery of why there has been a lack of evidence for the ancient accounts found in the Bible. We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. Enjoy the journey.
Doesn't that indicate that they are not really interested in telling the truth but only twisting their findings to support their own beliefs?
it says "We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. " i see nothing about twisting anything to prove anything....
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 22, 2020 4:35:03 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting about those videos called "Patterns of Evidence" This the message they post along with the videos as an invitation to Christian "pastors"
Dear Pastor, Welcome to the Pastor’s Portal for our film Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus. Here you will find resources that you can use to introduce your congregation to this exciting documentary film. In addition, prepared sermons and notes will be available should you wish to conduct a sermon about this topic. This film explores one foundational question: Is there any evidence to support the Exodus story? We ask that question because the story of the Exodus, and the book from which it comes, is under attack. The evidence against the Exodus appears to be so strong that even some within the church are labeling this account as historical fiction. This film provides an answer to the mystery of why there has been a lack of evidence for the ancient accounts found in the Bible. We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. Enjoy the journey.
Doesn't that indicate that they are not really interested in telling the truth but only twisting their findings to support their own beliefs?
it says "We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. " i see nothing about twisting anything to prove anything.... That is the point, Wally, you don't see how they twist it because they aren't looking to find the truth in what they are finding. They go into the project already biased as to what they want to find.
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Post by rational on Feb 22, 2020 11:16:10 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting about those videos called "Patterns of Evidence" This the message they post along with the videos as an invitation to Christian "pastors"
Dear Pastor, Welcome to the Pastor’s Portal for our film Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus. Here you will find resources that you can use to introduce your congregation to this exciting documentary film. In addition, prepared sermons and notes will be available should you wish to conduct a sermon about this topic. This film explores one foundational question: Is there any evidence to support the Exodus story? We ask that question because the story of the Exodus, and the book from which it comes, is under attack. The evidence against the Exodus appears to be so strong that even some within the church are labeling this account as historical fiction. This film provides an answer to the mystery of why there has been a lack of evidence for the ancient accounts found in the Bible. We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. Enjoy the journey.
Doesn't that indicate that they are not really interested in telling the truth but only twisting their findings to support their own beliefs?
it says "We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. " i see nothing about twisting anything to prove anything.... There is little to twist. The evidence against the Exodus appears to be so strong that even some within the church are labeling this account as historical fiction. This film provides an answer to the mystery of why there has been a lack of evidence for the ancient accounts found in the Bible.The evidence against the Exodus is strong. There is no or little evidence supporting the claim. The film is a presentation of various beliefs (without supporting evidence) trying to explain why there is evidence against the story and none to support it. It goes on to say: We want to give you the tools needed for a strong defense for the validity of the Bible. This film will be a terrific tool for outreach and faith-building by giving strong evidence for the acts of God in history. It is only geared to defend the validity of the bible, without any evidence to support their claims. It would be like a film created to provide tools to mount a strong defense to support the validity of "The Wizard of Oz".
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