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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 26, 2019 13:05:40 GMT -5
Those who kill in the name of Christ are not TRUE CHRISTIANS! That's not the point STR. They think they are and they are doing it for their God. That's one reason why religious fervor is dangerous. They will do things for their God that they wouldn't do otherwise. You can't just deny all the atrocious acts done over the centuries by saying those who took part in the inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust weren't 'true Christians'. They were Christians. If the Pope isn't Christian I don't know who is! They may not line up with modern day beliefs of what a Christian should be, but it hasn't always been a religion of peace and love like they like to claim today. Islam claims the same thing and look at how much they are acting like Christians did when they first started out! I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now.
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Post by snow on Nov 26, 2019 14:42:54 GMT -5
Well since I don't believe in any Gods, I would have to say that all actions people make are to benefit themselves in one way or another. But the conversation going on here is the same one I've heard over and over. Christians seem to think that atheists do bad things because they have no moral guidelines from the Christian God. But look at the bible and read all the things that Yahweh does that are absolutely immoral or what he demands the Israelite to do is immoral by human standards. When Christians follow those things, (because it's what they think God commands), it's usually immoral by human standards. I am so glad that most Christians haven't followed many of the commandments of the OT God. But through the centuries the horrific things that happened in the name of that God weren't 'wrong' if they followed what the OT says to do and how to treat those that aren't followers of the Yahweh. Other tribes in their area were of no consequence and they justified the genocides by saying God commanded it or condoned it. I believe self proclaimed Christians do bad things just like Atheists. Just because someone calls themself a Christian and does things for God does not make them a true believer in Christ. Hitler for example. Atheist do have moral guidlines, and for a reason, they were put there just the same as Christians or any other person. Just because someone calls them self a Atheist does not mean God is not drawing them. Never was Genocide. It was a nesscersay command to save a race of people from sin taking over them. In the case of the Amalekites 400 of them escaped and several hundred years later they tried to exterminate the Jewish people. Same with the Canaanites, done to prevent a greater evil. God knew what these people were going to do to the Isralites and gave them 400 years to repent before Giving the order. Go and read about Molech. I cannot understand how God can be called immoral when man deliberately kills over 100,000 unborn babies every day. Are they killed to prevent a greater evil?. How many babies does God allow to die in a day from starvation and other reasons. How many babies die due to miscarriage. I do not agree that abortion should be used as a form of birth control, but I do believe that women should have that option because we can never know what is happening for them. Many of the abortions are because of a baby that didn't form right. Why would God allow that? If you justify the genocide of the Amelikites because you have bought into the belief that sinners should be annihilated, then I understand why you don't think what your God commanded many times was ultimately immoral. What it was, was the justification of the Hebrew people for killing the Amelikties. I don't believe in your God, but they did and used him as their justification for the horrific things they did. War is war. If they came back at the Hebrews for what they did years before that's just how war works and why I feel it solves absolutely nothing. It just keeps happening generation after generation because they feel the need to get even. Look at what's happening with the Jews today in their endless war with the Palestinians. It's not going to end because both groups feel they are right WeAreRight, and it's never going to end because it's revenge that no one can ever win. God allows these things. He has the power, according to theists, to stop all of the carnage, the starvation of babies and children, etc. but he stands by and allows it. Sits and watches. I imagine most people if they had the power to prevent the harm to so many children, they would use it. Women wouldn't have to go through being raped and getting pregnant or having their father or brother rape them and getting pregnant. Where is God in any of this. Absent of course. That's why man has to be the one that ultimately will end the insanity of genocides, rape, incest and by using science, preventing the abundance of babies that are born with deformities and other horrific issues. You're right. Your God is not immoral. He doesn't exist. It's the people who believe in him, that condone the acts of the God they believe in that concern me.
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Post by snow on Nov 26, 2019 14:43:46 GMT -5
I cannot understand how God can be called immoral when man deliberately kills over 100,000 unborn babies every day. Are they killed to prevent a greater evil? Since you asked... Life has value. But what value when that life is one of degradation? We need to take a hard look at what abortion means to both the mother and the child. What a child needs to thrive both physically and mentally should be first and foremost in the decision to abort or to carry to term. The International Street Kids (ISK) organization states, “Over 400,000,000 abandoned children live on their own on the streets of hundreds of cities around the world. They subsist hand to mouth. They struggle to just survive the day.” This statistic along with the Holy Bible proclamation of, “…Be fruitful, and multiply…”, along with religious dictates against contraception, is cruel and inhumane! How is it moral or right for anyone to dictate that a woman produce a child who’s circumstances destine the child to die of starvation, neglect, or abuse? Ginette Paris in The Psychology of Abortion, asks, “What kind of fundamentalist morality turns its back on the suffering of mothers and couples and children when babies arrive unwanted in the world? And, above all, can we accept any kind of religious morality that has lost sight of the larger implications of a global ecology?” A child should be brought into this world only if it is welcomed with open arms. Aborting a fetus that is not welcomed is no different than humanely pulling the plug on the terminally ill. Parades are held in honor of veterans, some of which have killed in defense of our way of life; yet we recoil in horror and disdain at a woman who makes the same decision for the life in her womb. Preventing a woman from aborting a child she cannot care for physically or mentally, makes both mother and child victims of sexist religious dogma. When a woman is forced to keep an unwanted child, the mother, even with the best of intentions, often views the child through eyes of loathing and disgust. If the child is a result of rape or forced incest, a woman can hardly be expected to open her heart to such a child. Woman is the giver of life. She holds the power of life and death within her womb. For this very act alone, she should be honored and revered. The very act of legislation against abortion is an attempt to negate a woman’s power. Obtaining an abortion should be a choice made freely, without judgment or religious dogma being yelled from the streets as she walks to a public abortion clinic. Not allowing abortions to be performed in hospitals or a doctor’s office is nothing short of an attempt to shame and demean women. This very private choice should not be legislated by those who seek to hide behind the guise of supposed religious morality. Abortion is not an easy choice. In fact, it can be a very heartbreaking choice; but a choice made with compassion and for the greater good. The bottom line is that the gift of life should be pure and untainted. Abortion is an act of maternal responsibility and benevolence.Thank you Annan
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Post by snow on Nov 26, 2019 14:46:14 GMT -5
Hitler said he was killing the Jews for his God because they had killed his savior. He also had many Christians that worked in the camps. None of them were atheists. However, just because Christians kill in the name of their God, doesn't make it true that God exists. It just means that people will kill for the God they believe in, whether that God exists or not. I think what Chuck is saying, Snow, is that just because killers say their Christians doesn’t make them Christians. He was putting it in being “born again” which the Bible explains being born again in the spirit by the Spirit thus the indwelling Spirit is what makes “true and real Christians.” Not those who mouth their Christianity but actually have the Christ Spirit within. Hitler definitely did not have the Christ Spirit within nor did any Christian that supported him in his wicked ways unless it was under the threat of death and destruction. Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that?
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Post by snow on Nov 26, 2019 14:48:59 GMT -5
That's not the point STR. They think they are and they are doing it for their God. That's one reason why religious fervor is dangerous. They will do things for their God that they wouldn't do otherwise. You can't just deny all the atrocious acts done over the centuries by saying those who took part in the inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust weren't 'true Christians'. They were Christians. If the Pope isn't Christian I don't know who is! They may not line up with modern day beliefs of what a Christian should be, but it hasn't always been a religion of peace and love like they like to claim today. Islam claims the same thing and look at how much they are acting like Christians did when they first started out! I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now. He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 26, 2019 16:47:59 GMT -5
I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now. He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God. They certainly were not guided by the Holy Spirit! As I said Hitler was a liar, and God hates liars. So I don’t think he was truly a Christian nor even cared to desecrate the name of Christ for his own hate. The Jews have always been Gods people. They are God’s nation to proclaim his name before the whole world. What Christians or the most of them do not understand is that Christ’s followers are another carrier of God’s name before the whole world. They are meant to work in tandem for God’s glory to be shown upon the earth. That’s why so many are persecuted for their beliefs. So ridiculed. Just as Matisse did me in her misguided angst against Christians. As if Christians that are true Christians are antiseminetic automatically. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Christians that truly believe in Christ knows that Gentile believers are wild olive branches grafted into God’s chosen olive trees, the nation of Israel. They know but for the fall of the Jews in receiving Jesus is the only reason that ALL men must repent everywhere. They know that it is to bring the Jews into envy so they’ll return to the God that chose their nation hundreds of years ago. God has promised that all of Israel shall be saved. Thus there is no room nor reason for Christian to hate or despise the Jews because if they’re truly Christians it just won’t work for they are all to be in the kingdom of God together. Though it is well known that in the new heaven and earth, that there’ll be no such thing as Jew nor Gentile, male nor female.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 26, 2019 17:12:42 GMT -5
I think what Chuck is saying, Snow, is that just because killers say their Christians doesn’t make them Christians. He was putting it in being “born again” which the Bible explains being born again in the spirit by the Spirit thus the indwelling Spirit is what makes “true and real Christians.” Not those who mouth their Christianity but actually have the Christ Spirit within. Hitler definitely did not have the Christ Spirit within nor did any Christian that supported him in his wicked ways unless it was under the threat of death and destruction. Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that? I didn’t get it he thought Hitler was really and atheist nor Christian either one. Chuck had spoke about the 400 men that had gotten away from the Children of Israel that in later years sought to destroy them as Israel was to have destroyed them many centuries before. That the instance of Hitler’s “revenge” was that very revenge but Hitler liars and colored the story as something more acceptable to the so-called Christian world. Which in turn is a doubtable true Christians world or at least a majority of its so-professed Christian members say. A reason to say Hitler was an atheist was he had no God love in him for his fellow man. He had no Gidlike qualities within him, he lied emphatically, repeatedly and did it purposefully to brainwash those who’d listen to him. Just like Trump does. God hates liars. The Bible is very definite on that. So if God hates liars and someone that purposefully lies to brainwash people , is a deceiver and a deceiver is someone who knows the truth but refuses to use it. It’s better for their purposes to tell lies. Thus they are anti-God in the worst way. They are true atheists. Using God for their nefarious purposes but not heeding the Ten Commandments at all. And could care less.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 26, 2019 17:17:49 GMT -5
Snow, it seems it comes down to this: there are True Christians with the indwelling Spirit and there are so-professed Christians that have no idea really what that means.
Likewise as I showed you; there are Atgeists like Hitler who use God for their nefarious advantage but could care less about the disparagement their behaviors leave in God’s name.
Whereas there are atheists so-professed by themselves who lived decent moral lives not seeking to disparage God’s name; simply they just don’t believe there is a God.
See the differences?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2019 17:41:10 GMT -5
That's not the point STR. They think they are and they are doing it for their God. That's one reason why religious fervor is dangerous. They will do things for their God that they wouldn't do otherwise. You can't just deny all the atrocious acts done over the centuries by saying those who took part in the inquisition, the crusades, the holocaust weren't 'true Christians'. They were Christians. If the Pope isn't Christian I don't know who is! They may not line up with modern day beliefs of what a Christian should be, but it hasn't always been a religion of peace and love like they like to claim today. Islam claims the same thing and look at how much they are acting like Christians did when they first started out! I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now. Snow is right, -you can't just decide who were "True Christians" and who weren't "True Christians!" Mainly because the whole idea of Christianity is been built on dividing people into groups.
It is the idea that some people are bad & others are good and the reason they are that way is because they either have the "spirit" of god in them or they don't. That idea exists because of a need for many people to believe that there is a something or someone pulling the strings; -that there is a "reason" that things happen. It supplies them with a sense of security much like Voltaire's Candide.
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Post by chuck on Nov 26, 2019 18:34:33 GMT -5
I cannot understand how God can be called immoral when man deliberately kills over 100,000 unborn babies every day. Are they killed to prevent a greater evil? Since you asked... Life has value. But what value when that life is one of degradation? We need to take a hard look at what abortion means to both the mother and the child. What a child needs to thrive both physically and mentally should be first and foremost in the decision to abort or to carry to term. The International Street Kids (ISK) organization states, “Over 400,000,000 abandoned children live on their own on the streets of hundreds of cities around the world. They subsist hand to mouth. They struggle to just survive the day.” This statistic along with the Holy Bible proclamation of, “…Be fruitful, and multiply…”, along with religious dictates against contraception, is cruel and inhumane! How is it moral or right for anyone to dictate that a woman produce a child who’s circumstances destine the child to die of starvation, neglect, or abuse? Ginette Paris in The Psychology of Abortion, asks, “What kind of fundamentalist morality turns its back on the suffering of mothers and couples and children when babies arrive unwanted in the world? And, above all, can we accept any kind of religious morality that has lost sight of the larger implications of a global ecology?” A child should be brought into this world only if it is welcomed with open arms. Aborting a fetus that is not welcomed is no different than humanely pulling the plug on the terminally ill. Parades are held in honor of veterans, some of which have killed in defense of our way of life; yet we recoil in horror and disdain at a woman who makes the same decision for the life in her womb. Preventing a woman from aborting a child she cannot care for physically or mentally, makes both mother and child victims of sexist religious dogma. When a woman is forced to keep an unwanted child, the mother, even with the best of intentions, often views the child through eyes of loathing and disgust. If the child is a result of rape or forced incest, a woman can hardly be expected to open her heart to such a child. Woman is the giver of life. She holds the power of life and death within her womb. For this very act alone, she should be honored and revered. The very act of legislation against abortion is an attempt to negate a woman’s power. Obtaining an abortion should be a choice made freely, without judgment or religious dogma being yelled from the streets as she walks to a public abortion clinic. Not allowing abortions to be performed in hospitals or a doctor’s office is nothing short of an attempt to shame and demean women. This very private choice should not be legislated by those who seek to hide behind the guise of supposed religious morality. Abortion is not an easy choice. In fact, it can be a very heartbreaking choice; but a choice made with compassion and for the greater good. The bottom line is that the gift of life should be pure and untainted. Abortion is an act of maternal responsibility and benevolence.Who decides the degridation value? Why were these decisions not considered before conception? maybe there wouldnt be 100,000 abortions daily!. Since when does relieving someone of responsibility by killing the burden become ok?. Plenty of cases you could apply to this unwanted burden argument to, why stop at unborn babies?, how about the person who is in a coma for a predicted 6 months? can we kill them as well?. Comparing a new life to a terminally ill life does what exactly? Justify killing a new life? The bible is not against contraception, thats rediculous. It is not a religous morality, it is implanted in our hearts from God. Rape and incest are miniscule percentage cases used as a excuse for wholsale abortion. Not a sound argument. And I am not arguing these cases. Abortion is not a easy decision you say, but according to the facts is easier than the conception decision. This should have alarm bells ringing!!. Something is not right! I dont think the legal argument is relevant because it misses the whole point. The point is why did it get to this point of mass abortion, legal/illegal? Your whole abortion argument is after the fact. Which is then used as a excuse for unwanted burden. Where in the hell is the love that led to this point?. Its as absent as after the fact!. It got to this point because the disbelief or lack of faith in a higher Authority!. It all stems back to that. The bible throughout shows the best way to live your life. Accept Christ did what he said he could do and watch the world change!.
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Post by chuck on Nov 26, 2019 18:41:55 GMT -5
I think what Chuck is saying, Snow, is that just because killers say their Christians doesn’t make them Christians. He was putting it in being “born again” which the Bible explains being born again in the spirit by the Spirit thus the indwelling Spirit is what makes “true and real Christians.” Not those who mouth their Christianity but actually have the Christ Spirit within. Hitler definitely did not have the Christ Spirit within nor did any Christian that supported him in his wicked ways unless it was under the threat of death and destruction. Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that? "I believe self proclaimed Christians do bad things just like Atheists. Just because someone calls themself a Christian and does things for God does not make them a true believer in Christ. Hitler for example. Atheist do have moral guidlines, and for a reason, they were put there just the same as Christians or any other person. Just because someone calls them self a Atheist does not mean God is not drawing them" Did I not just put Christians in the Atheist basket and Atheists into the Christian basket?
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Post by chuck on Nov 26, 2019 18:45:04 GMT -5
I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now. He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God. I guess he/they just forgot to love his neighbor as him self in those years.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 26, 2019 18:47:22 GMT -5
He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God. I guess he/they just forgot to love his neighbor as him self in those years. Evidence that the Holy Spirit wasn’t involved in his decisions.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2019 20:24:41 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that? "I believe self proclaimed Christians do bad things just like Atheists. Just because someone calls themself a Christian and does things for God does not make them a true believer in Christ. Hitler for example. Atheist do have moral guidlines, and for a reason, they were put there just the same as Christians or any other person. Just because someone calls them self a Atheist does not mean God is not drawing them" Did I not just put Christians in the Atheist basket and Atheists into the Christian basket? So, -you did put we atheists into the same basket with Christians when you used Christian concept of a "god drawing" people.
But that does not make it OK. Because just WHY do you have to drag us into the same category as yourself?
Why is it so difficult for Christians to just accept the fact that in our belief as an atheist we simply do not believe a god is relevant to how we act?
Why do you have to bring in your concept that there is a god, and "he" IS or IS NOT "drawing us?"
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Post by chuck on Nov 26, 2019 23:22:33 GMT -5
"I believe self proclaimed Christians do bad things just like Atheists. Just because someone calls themself a Christian and does things for God does not make them a true believer in Christ. Hitler for example. Atheist do have moral guidlines, and for a reason, they were put there just the same as Christians or any other person. Just because someone calls them self a Atheist does not mean God is not drawing them" Did I not just put Christians in the Atheist basket and Atheists into the Christian basket? So, -you did put we atheists into the same basket with Christians when you used Christian concept of a "god drawing" people.
But that does not make it OK. Because just WHY do you have to drag us into the same category as yourself?
Why is it so difficult for Christians to just accept the fact that in our belief as an atheist we simply do not believe a god is relevant to how we act?
Why do you have to bring in your concept that there is a god, and "he" IS or IS NOT "drawing us?"
Of course I did, never denied it or tried to hide it. Im unsure what your point is?. You put us in the same basket when you say there is no God, in your mind if there is no God, there is also no God for for those who think their is a God. If we are not in your "no God basket" you are admitting there is a God. Its not difficult to accept. Plenty of things I disagree with but accept. You can trace all manner of reasons of why people act like they do through the scriptures. That came from somewhere. I believe its a God. You don't, and put it down to evolution I assume?.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 1:36:42 GMT -5
So, -you did put we atheists into the same basket with Christians when you used Christian concept of a "god drawing" people.
But that does not make it OK. Because just WHY do you have to drag us into the same category as yourself?
Why is it so difficult for Christians to just accept the fact that in our belief as an atheist we simply do not believe a god is relevant to how we act?
Why do you have to bring in your concept that there is a god, and "he" IS or IS NOT "drawing us?"
Of course I did, never denied it or tried to hide it. Im unsure what your point is?. You put us in the same basket when you say there is no God, in your mind if there is no God, there is also no God for for those who think their is a God. If we are not in your "no God basket" you are admitting there is a God. Its not difficult to accept. Plenty of things I disagree with but accept. You can trace all manner of reasons of why people act like they do through the scriptures. That came from somewhere. I believe its a God. You don't, and put it down to evolution I assume?. You surely don't get it!
You said, "Just because someone calls them self a atheist does not mean God is not drawing them."
You are so uncomprehending that an atheist like myself can act in an autonomous manner that you have to believe it is YOUR god who is "drawing us" to do what is right!
That is my "point!"
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Post by chuck on Nov 27, 2019 1:54:51 GMT -5
Of course I did, never denied it or tried to hide it. Im unsure what your point is?. You put us in the same basket when you say there is no God, in your mind if there is no God, there is also no God for for those who think their is a God. If we are not in your "no God basket" you are admitting there is a God. Its not difficult to accept. Plenty of things I disagree with but accept. You can trace all manner of reasons of why people act like they do through the scriptures. That came from somewhere. I believe its a God. You don't, and put it down to evolution I assume?. You surely don't get it!
You said, "Just because someone calls them self a atheist does not mean God is not drawing them."
You are so uncomprehending that an atheist like myself can act in an autonomous manner that you have to believe it is YOUR god who is "drawing us" to do what is right!
That is my "point!"
I do get it. I just don't believe it. Can you comprehend that?.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 2:25:38 GMT -5
You surely don't get it!
You said, "Just because someone calls them self a atheist does not mean God is not drawing them."
You are so uncomprehending that an atheist like myself can act in an autonomous manner that you have to believe it is YOUR god who is "drawing us" to do what is right!
That is my "point!" I do get it. I just don't believe it. Can you comprehend that?. Sure, of course I can comprehend why you "just don't believe it," - because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?
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Post by chuck on Nov 27, 2019 7:47:23 GMT -5
I do get it. I just don't believe it. Can you comprehend that?. Sure, of course I can comprehend why you "just don't believe it," - because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?
No I never said that. God doesnt work like that. Why do you think he does?. Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon. I do believe some people will be sent to the hell you picture but it is hardly mentioned in the bible as is called Hades.
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Post by Annan on Nov 27, 2019 8:31:25 GMT -5
Oh, the gods . . . As woven into the ways of Power . . . with the ability to use it for their own purpose. Once I feared the gods. That was such a long time ago, before I realized that they too were as mortal as I. I have yet to understand how the gods harness the Power they use. I think it resembles the whirlpools and eddies along one of the eastern flowing rivers. Power is the current constantly flowing through time. Somehow the gods concentrate that current or their own, holding it for a time . . . but in the end they can no more hoard Power than any of us can hoard life. As a god’s Power drains away, he wilts, fades and finally whispers into a memory. Memory as we all know is ephemeral as a summer rain. In the beginning people depend on gods for their survival and in the end, it is the gods who desperately depend on people for theirs. Time will defeat them both. ~ Sorry! I can't remember who said this.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 27, 2019 10:46:25 GMT -5
I disagree, many who do things in n the name of Christ or God or evil don’t really think they’re Christians. Hitler was as bib a liar as Trump and his Theory was tell a lie often enough and people will believe that. There’s a quote of him saying that and I can’t find it now. Snow is right, -you can't just decide who were "True Christians" and who weren't "True Christians!" Mainly because the whole idea of Christianity is been built on dividing people into groups.
It is the idea that some people are bad & others are good and the reason they are that way is because they either have the "spirit" of god in them or they don't. That idea exists because of a need for many people to believe that there is a something or someone pulling the strings; -that there is a "reason" that things happen. It supplies them with a sense of security much like Voltaire's Candide.
Atheists also are into dividing people.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 13:50:53 GMT -5
Sure, of course I can comprehend why you "just don't believe it," - because you apparently believe that anyone cannot act in a caring manner towards their fellowmen/women/children without a supernatural being telling them to do so; -otherwise HE will send you a "pit of everlasting fire" in a after-life that will last for all eternity. Right?
No I never said that. God doesnt work like that. Why do you think he does?. Your picture of hell has come from renaissance art!, and God for that matter, it sounds like you think hes like the angel/devil on your shoulder in a disney cartoon. I do believe some people will be sent to the hell you picture but it is hardly mentioned in the bible as is called Hades. No, -My "picture of hell has (NOT) come from renaissance art!" No, I do NOT "think he's (god) like the angel/devil on your (my) shoulder in a Disney cartoon--"
I had thought that we were discussing the bible, -not "renaissance art nor Disney cartoons." I was talking about what is states in the bible not just something that I "picture."
Aren't you are talking about the "bible?" What do you mean, "God doesn't work like that? "
You ask me: "Why do you think he does?"
Well, Here's why:
Math:25 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mark 9:48
"...where 'their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.'
Luke 16:24
"So he cried out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire."
PS: As for "hades," -it is a greek term and not mentioned in my bible at all.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 13:58:27 GMT -5
Snow is right, -you can't just decide who were "True Christians" and who weren't "True Christians!" Mainly because the whole idea of Christianity is been built on dividing people into groups.
It is the idea that some people are bad & others are good and the reason they are that way is because they either have the "spirit" of god in them or they don't.
That idea exists because of a need for many people to believe that there is a something or someone pulling the strings; -that there is a "reason" that things happen.
It supplies them with a sense of security much like Voltaire's Candide.
Atheists also are into dividing people. What groups do we atheists divide others into? And do we set one group against another as religious people do to each other?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2019 14:04:12 GMT -5
Oh, the gods . . . As woven into the ways of Power . . . with the ability to use it for their own purpose. Once I feared the gods.
That was such a long time ago, before I realized that they too were as mortal as I. I have yet to understand how the gods harness the Power they use.
I think it resembles the whirlpools and eddies along one of the eastern flowing rivers. Power is the current constantly flowing through time.
Somehow the gods concentrate that current or their own, holding it for a time . . . but in the end they can no more hoard Power than any of us can hoard life
As a god’s Power drains away, he wilts, fades and finally whispers into a memory. Memory as we all know is ephemeral as a summer rain. In the beginning people depend on gods for their survival and in the end, it is the gods who desperately depend on people for theirs.
Time will defeat them both. ~ Sorry! I can't remember who said this. Thanks, Annan! That is great!
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:06:37 GMT -5
He is known to have stated that he was killing the Jews because they killed his savior. So he definitely felt affiliated with the Christian faith and the Christian God. He may have been misguided, but it's not honest to say he never thought of himself as a Christian. He even had the backing of the Archbishop of Germany and the Pope in power then. Were they not 'true Christians' either? They certainly believed they were. The Pope that ordered the Inquisition, the Crusades, certainly thought he was a Christian and doing what they were doing for their God. They certainly were not guided by the Holy Spirit! As I said Hitler was a liar, and God hates liars. So I don’t think he was truly a Christian nor even cared to desecrate the name of Christ for his own hate. The Jews have always been Gods people. They are God’s nation to proclaim his name before the whole world. What Christians or the most of them do not understand is that Christ’s followers are another carrier of God’s name before the whole world. They are meant to work in tandem for God’s glory to be shown upon the earth. That’s why so many are persecuted for their beliefs. So ridiculed. Just as Matisse did me in her misguided angst against Christians. As if Christians that are true Christians are antiseminetic automatically. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Christians that truly believe in Christ knows that Gentile believers are wild olive branches grafted into God’s chosen olive trees, the nation of Israel. They know but for the fall of the Jews in receiving Jesus is the only reason that ALL men must repent everywhere. They know that it is to bring the Jews into envy so they’ll return to the God that chose their nation hundreds of years ago. God has promised that all of Israel shall be saved. Thus there is no room nor reason for Christian to hate or despise the Jews because if they’re truly Christians it just won’t work for they are all to be in the kingdom of God together. Though it is well known that in the new heaven and earth, that there’ll be no such thing as Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. The topic wasn't if they met your criteria for who is a Christian, the topic was whether the person doing the horrific acts believed themselves to be a Christian. And, I am quite sure the pope and those doing the torture during the inquisition, the crusade members and Hitler and the ones that carried out Hitlers orders all believed they were Christians. I agree with you that they don't match up with what we're taught about Jesus much, but we can't deny that they did believe they were Christians. So when Christians bunch all atheists into one category they really aren't taking into consideration that all atheists are different. The only thing they share in common is their non belief. There are atheists that do horrific things, and there are atheists that do wonderful things. Same for Christians. But both groups still think of themselves as atheists or Christians. Those labels don't mean that everyone that calls themselves a Christian or an atheist are good or bad people. They are a mix of both always.
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:08:47 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that? I didn’t get it he thought Hitler was really and atheist nor Christian either one. Chuck had spoke about the 400 men that had gotten away from the Children of Israel that in later years sought to destroy them as Israel was to have destroyed them many centuries before. That the instance of Hitler’s “revenge” was that very revenge but Hitler liars and colored the story as something more acceptable to the so-called Christian world. Which in turn is a doubtable true Christians world or at least a majority of its so-professed Christian members say. A reason to say Hitler was an atheist was he had no God love in him for his fellow man. He had no Gidlike qualities within him, he lied emphatically, repeatedly and did it purposefully to brainwash those who’d listen to him. Just like Trump does. God hates liars. The Bible is very definite on that. So if God hates liars and someone that purposefully lies to brainwash people , is a deceiver and a deceiver is someone who knows the truth but refuses to use it. It’s better for their purposes to tell lies. Thus they are anti-God in the worst way. They are true atheists. Using God for their nefarious purposes but not heeding the Ten Commandments at all. And could care less. The definition of an atheist is someone who believes in no Gods. Hitler believed in a God even if he was a poor example of what that is supposed to mean. There is a difference STR. They are still believers and believe they are followers of a God. Hitler cannot be an atheist by that definition.
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:10:58 GMT -5
Snow, it seems it comes down to this: there are True Christians with the indwelling Spirit and there are so-professed Christians that have no idea really what that means. Likewise as I showed you; there are Atgeists like Hitler who use God for their nefarious advantage but could care less about the disparagement their behaviors leave in God’s name. Whereas there are atheists so-professed by themselves who lived decent moral lives not seeking to disparage God’s name; simply they just don’t believe there is a God. See the differences? I already answered this in your above post's answer. Hitler was a bad example of a Christian, but he did believe in the Christian God. The sole definition of an atheist is they don't believe in any gods. So by that definition Hitler and his followers could never be atheists. They believed even though they weren't a good example of a believer. See the difference?
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Post by snow on Nov 27, 2019 14:14:50 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sure that is what he's saying. But he doesn't seem to see that by doing that he is actually being hypocritical when he bunches all atheists into the same basket. He won't recognize those who call themselves Christian, do horrific things, as Christians. But he has no trouble insinuating that all atheists are like Hitler because he believes Hitler was an atheist and that's just what atheists are like. See the hypocrisy in that? "I believe self proclaimed Christians do bad things just like Atheists. Just because someone calls themself a Christian and does things for God does not make them a true believer in Christ. Hitler for example. Atheist do have moral guidlines, and for a reason, they were put there just the same as Christians or any other person. Just because someone calls them self a Atheist does not mean God is not drawing them" Did I not just put Christians in the Atheist basket and Atheists into the Christian basket? Atheists are just one thing. Non believers. If someone believes in a God and doesn't do a very good example of living it, doesn't make them an atheist. And atheists doing good things does not make them being drawn by God. It makes them a person that looks around at the world they live in and sees the need and tries to answer that need as best they can.
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