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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 0:38:12 GMT -5
If you worshipped ONLY God the Father then why did you bow your head and give thanks for the emblems to Jesus every Sunday morning meeting when you were a 2x2? Why, did you put Jesus, the Holy Spirit on the SAME Level as God the Father if they are NOT God?
ONLY God to be worship, you know....
I have never prayed to Jesus. I started with "Our father", and I made sure that I told him I was asking him "In Jesus name". FWIW Why, would you asked and prayed "In Jesus name" in your prayer and put Him on the same Level as God the Father in your prayer? If he is NOT God. You know Only God to be worshipped and give thanks to.
Why, did you bow your head and give thanks, to Jesus on the emblems? We suppose only bow our heads to God.
So, it seemed you worshipped God the Father and Jesus after all, eh.
Have you or anyone in your past Sunday morning meetings singing hymn, Holy Spirit breath upon us? Why, would you want to ask the Holy Spirit to be in your meetings, in the same meeting with God the Father, Jesus Christ? if The Holy Spirit was NOT part of the Godhead with God the Father and Christ.
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 2:38:56 GMT -5
Nathan, at NO time have I ever put Jesus or the Holy Spirit on the same level as God the Father. Let's be clear about that. Jesus told us plainly that the Father is greater than he. Also, of himself he could do nothing. Zilch, Nada. The Holy Spirit is NOT a person. Jesus tells us that it proceeds from 'the Father!' It is God the Father's Spirit. You have a Spirit. It proceeds from you. It is not on the same level as you because it is subject to you. As you well know, F&Ws give thanks to God the Father for his human being Son, Jesus, because God has arranged that salvation can only be obtained through Jesus. He is the route to the Father. By following in his footsteps, in the way, truth and life that is pleasing to the Father. Jesus was 100% obedient to God and therefore did not require a sacrifice to atone for any sins, but we, who have all fallen short, require the sacrifice of Jesus, the perfect human being, to atone for our sins. The F&Ws are thankful for the sacrifice of Jesus which makes it possible through atoning for sins and following in his footsteps, they can be presented holy and perfect before God and thus be found acceptable. Have you forgotten all of this? Because of his God pleasing victory, Jesus is seen as pre-eminent amongst God's chosen people. Not only that, he has been given position above the angels and everything else. This is what awaits the faithful. To be joint-heirs with Jesus. Crowned with glory and judging this world. Jesus is not the only one who will be crowned 'o God.' That awaits every true believer. You mean to say you don't worship Jesus? I think that makes you a heathern. As you know mein gut herr, one day every knee before him shall bow. I would like it pointed out just where I have said that I don't worship Jesus? I said at no time, or ever will, put him on the same level as God the Father. Not even Jesus in his current inherited position and authority, ruling on behalf of God, does this. Here is one example of how we are to worship Jesus. www.biblicalunitarian.com/videos/can-we-worship-jesus-christBy the way, if you can get the minutes for the February 1904 workers' meeting in Lucerne, I believe it covers this very subject as I understand it was an item on the agenda?
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 2:45:33 GMT -5
I have never prayed to Jesus. I started with "Our father", and I made sure that I told him I was asking him "In Jesus name". FWIW Why, would you asked and prayed "In Jesus name" in your prayer and put Him on the same Level as God the Father in your prayer? If he is NOT God. You know Only God to be worshipped and give thanks to.
Why, did you bow your head and give thanks, to Jesus on the emblems? We suppose only bow our heads to God.
So, it seemed you worshipped God the Father and Jesus after all, eh.
Have you or anyone in your past Sunday morning meetings singing hymn, Holy Spirit breath upon us? Why, would you want to ask the Holy Spirit to be in your meetings, in the same meeting with God the Father, Jesus Christ? if The Holy Spirit was NOT part of the Godhead with God the Father and Christ.
Nathan, I think you have considerable difficulty in grasping what doing something through a person means. God expresses himself to us in word and deed through his obedient human being Son, Jesus. We can only approach the Father through Jesus. He is our mediator, the only mediator between God and man, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is God the Father's spirit which Jesus sends to us. It is meant to be in you, in your daily life. The Holy Spirit is the Father because it is the Father's spirit. Your spirit is YOU, simply because it is your spirit. It is not a separate person from you! We are to worship God in Spirit and in truth, i.e. the Spirit of God the Father and in truth (God's word).
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 2:48:43 GMT -5
I think your comparison needs some work? Workers and non-workers (friends) belong to the same fellowship. Why can't the ordinary members attend the workers (only) meetings? They are one and the same people. I can understand an outsider not being permitted, but the main thrust of my question was regarding the 'friends. A Police officers' staff meeting is usually open to people in that organisation who have an interest in the matters, practices to be discussed or exercised. Your answer appears to be attempting to justify the non-inclusion of associated members in one group with the non-inclusion of non-associated persons in another group? However, not all "associated members" are members of the "executive" !! It's only liberal CES's who consult with their, ahem, support staff. When Jesus said 'ye are brethren,' I don't think he had things like associated members and executives in mind? However, I could be wrong?
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Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2019 5:26:53 GMT -5
If you worshipped ONLY God the Father then why did you bow your head and give thanks for the emblems to Jesus every Sunday morning meeting when you were a 2x2? Why, did you put Jesus, the Holy Spirit on the SAME Level as God the Father if they are NOT God?
ONLY God to be worship, you know....
I have never prayed to Jesus. I started with "Our father", and I made sure that I told him I was asking him "In Jesus name". FWIW Couldn't he figure out by himself that you were asking in Jesus name?
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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 7:46:25 GMT -5
I have never prayed to Jesus. I started with "Our father", and I made sure that I told him I was asking him "In Jesus name". FWIW Couldn't he figure out by himself that you were asking in Jesus name? Are you talking about BobW. or Jesus figuring out by himself that you were asking in Jesus name?
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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 7:54:03 GMT -5
Why, would you asked and prayed "In Jesus name" in your prayer and put Him on the same Level as God the Father in your prayer? If he is NOT God. You know Only God to be worshipped and give thanks to.
Why, did you bow your head and give thanks, to Jesus on the emblems? We suppose only bow our heads to God.
So, it seemed you worshipped God the Father and Jesus after all, eh.
Have you or anyone in your past Sunday morning meetings singing hymn, Holy Spirit breath upon us? Why, would you want to ask the Holy Spirit to be in your meetings, in the same meeting with God the Father, Jesus Christ? if The Holy Spirit was NOT part of the Godhead with God the Father and Christ.
Nathan, I think you have considerable difficulty in grasping what doing something through a person means. God expresses himself to us in word and deed through his obedient human being Son, Jesus. We can only approach the Father through Jesus. He is our mediator, the only mediator between God and man, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is God the Father's spirit which Jesus sends to us. It is meant to be in you, in your daily life. The Holy Spirit is the Father because it is the Father's spirit. Your spirit is YOU, simply because it is your spirit. It is not a separate person from you! We are to worship God in Spirit and in truth, i.e. the Spirit of God the Father and in truth (God's word). Your belief on who God is are all mixed up, you jump here and there all over the place and it doesn't make any sense. The Holy Spirit is NOT God the Father. It seems your understanding is gathering from a few different denominations Anti-Trinity churches belief and Trinity belief all mixed up into one, on Who God is...
You believe the same as the anti-Trinity, The Oneness Pentecostals believe God is ONE being= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit. The Jehovah Witnesses doctrine God the Father is the ONLY one we worship and NOT the Son.
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 8:23:36 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you have considerable difficulty in grasping what doing something through a person means. God expresses himself to us in word and deed through his obedient human being Son, Jesus. We can only approach the Father through Jesus. He is our mediator, the only mediator between God and man, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. The Holy Spirit is not a person. It is God the Father's spirit which Jesus sends to us. It is meant to be in you, in your daily life. The Holy Spirit is the Father because it is the Father's spirit. Your spirit is YOU, simply because it is your spirit. It is not a separate person from you! We are to worship God in Spirit and in truth, i.e. the Spirit of God the Father and in truth (God's word). Your belief on who God is are all mixed up, you jump here and there all over the place and it doesn't make any sense. The Holy Spirit is NOT God the Father. It seems your understanding is gathering from a few different denominations Anti-Trinity churches belief and Trinity belief all mixed up into one, on Who God is...
You believe the same as the anti-Trinity, The Oneness Pentecostals believe God is ONE being= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit. The Jehovah Witnesses doctrine God the Father is the ONLY one we worship and NOT the Son.
Do you have a problem with the guy who said this? John 15.26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 8:29:52 GMT -5
Your belief on who God is are all mixed up, you jump here and there all over the place and it doesn't make any sense. The Holy Spirit is NOT God the Father. It seems your understanding is gathering from a few different denominations Anti-Trinity churches belief and Trinity belief all mixed up into one, on Who God is...
You believe the same as the anti-Trinity, The Oneness Pentecostals believe God is ONE being= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit. The Jehovah Witnesses doctrine God the Father is the ONLY one we worship and NOT the Son.
Do you have a problem with the guy who said this? John 15.26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:” No, The Holy Spirit is NOT the Father but he is from heaven and God the Father sent him just like He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Jesus said when The Holy Spirit comes "He" and will teach you all things about me, He takes on the MALE'S Spirit to help the Apostles to send out more apostles, lead them where to go as their Guide, Teacher, Comforter, and Protector until Jesus returns to earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign.
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 8:37:22 GMT -5
Do you have a problem with the guy who said this? John 15.26 “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:” No, The Holy Spirit is NOT the Father but he is from heaven and God the Father sent him just like He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Jesus said when The Holy Spirit comes "He" and will teach you all things about me, He takes on the MALE'S Spirit to help the Apostles to send out more apostles, lead them where to go as their Guide, Teacher, Comforter, and Protector until Jesus returns to earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign.
The Holy Spirit 'proceeds' from the Father. It is his spirit. It is a living spirit. It is of the Father/God. Jesus couldn't be plainer. Furthermore, describing the Holy Spirit as 'he' is correct on the original Greek grammar, but incorrect in English grammar. www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/why-the-holy-spirit-is-sometimes-incorrectly-referred-to-as-he-and-himThis link is worth the 20 minute watch to get a proper understanding (if you want it?). www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAEmdLVWSHY
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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 11:57:33 GMT -5
No, The Holy Spirit is NOT the Father but he is from heaven and God the Father sent him just like He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Jesus said when The Holy Spirit comes "He" and will teach you all things about me, He takes on the MALE'S Spirit to help the Apostles to send out more apostles, lead them where to go as their Guide, Teacher, Comforter, and Protector until Jesus returns to earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords to rule and reign.
The Holy Spirit 'proceeds' from the Father. It is his spirit. It is a living spirit. It is of the Father/God. Jesus couldn't be plainer. Furthermore, describing the Holy Spirit as 'he' is correct on the original Greek grammar, but incorrect in English grammar. www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/why-the-holy-spirit-is-sometimes-incorrectly-referred-to-as-he-and-himThis link is worth the 20 minute watch to get a proper understanding (if you want it?). www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAEmdLVWSHY*** The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Christ is NOT the Father either. Both the Holy Spirit and Christ/Jesus are sent by the Father to earth to fulfill His plans of Salvation for mankind.
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Post by mountain on Oct 14, 2019 14:05:41 GMT -5
*** The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Christ is NOT the Father either. Both the Holy Spirit and Christ/Jesus are sent by the Father to earth to fulfill His plans of Salvation for mankind. Well Nathan, please explain why Jesus said (John 15.26) “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
[/font][/b][/b][/b] Do I believe Jesus or not?
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Post by nathan on Oct 14, 2019 15:36:58 GMT -5
*** The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and Christ is NOT the Father either. Both the Holy Spirit and Christ/Jesus are sent by the Father to earth to fulfill His plans of Salvation for mankind. Well Nathan, please explain why Jesus said (John 15.26) “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
[/font][/b][/b][/b] Do I believe Jesus or not? [/quote] ** You misinterpreted what jesus said... God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to guide the church while He went back to be by His side. The Holy Spirit is NOT God the Father or the Son either. Each Godhead has HIS own personality, mind and will of their own but they think the same way just identical triplets.
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jay
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Post by jay on Oct 14, 2019 17:19:52 GMT -5
This thread is titled: Upcoming 2020 Australia Workers Convention Should that be what is discussed, rather than trinitarian dogma? It Seems like NO ONE on this board is following the Narrow Way re the subject of Upcoming 2020 Australian Workers Convention., Why is That???
Please no more wondering like lost sheep. KEEP TO THE SUBJECT>
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Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2019 17:44:02 GMT -5
However, not all "associated members" are members of the "executive" !! It's only liberal CES's who consult with their, ahem, support staff. When Jesus said 'ye are brethren,' I don't think he had things like associated members and executives in mind? However, I could be wrong? It would be good if authoritarian attitudes were considered at the January meeting. Words of Jesus:Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. Matthew 20:25-27 New Living Translation (NLT) Words of the ministry:We may think that we are "obeying men" and not "obeying Christ" when we submit to something that seems wrong to our own thinking. However, the scriptures teach so much about submission e.g. to the government of the land, wives to husbands, children to parents, the Lord's people to the ministry, etc. That teaching doesn't just apply when the governments, husbands, parents or workers are 100% on the right track, but it applies in a very comprehensive way. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. Dale Shultz, April 12, 1999.
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 14, 2019 18:14:40 GMT -5
When Jesus said 'ye are brethren,' I don't think he had things like associated members and executives in mind? However, I could be wrong? It would be good if authoritarian attitudes were considered at the January meeting. Words of Jesus:Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. Matthew 20:25-27 New Living Translation (NLT) Words of the ministry:We may think that we are "obeying men" and not "obeying Christ" when we submit to something that seems wrong to our own thinking. However, the scriptures teach so much about submission e.g. to the government of the land, wives to husbands, children to parents, the Lord's people to the ministry, etc. That teaching doesn't just apply when the governments, husbands, parents or workers are 100% on the right track, but it applies in a very comprehensive way. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. Dale Shultz, April 12, 1999. Well put Fixit - I agree with you
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 14, 2019 18:56:58 GMT -5
I have never prayed to Jesus. I started with "Our father", and I made sure that I told him I was asking him "In Jesus name". FWIW Couldn't he figure out by himself that you were asking in Jesus name? That never mattered to me. I was doing what I was told.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 14, 2019 19:01:49 GMT -5
Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. Dale Shultz, April 12, 1999. Stupid, frankly.
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Post by Pragmatic on Oct 14, 2019 19:07:02 GMT -5
Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. Dale Shultz, April 12, 1999. Stupid, frankly. I also heard similar words from a middle aged worker here in NZ once. I told him, "Bollocks, you're just a little Hitler, and enjoying a power trip." I thought I was pretty much a goner after saying that to him. It got back to an older worker, JB, and he called me and a few others who were around. His words were basically, "Good on ya, best thing he's had said to him all convention. I'm also going to tell him to 'pull his horns in'."
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Post by fixit on Oct 14, 2019 21:00:39 GMT -5
I also heard similar words from a middle aged worker here in NZ once. I told him, "Bollocks, you're just a little Hitler, and enjoying a power trip." I thought I was pretty much a goner after saying that to him. It got back to an older worker, JB, and he called me and a few others who were around. His words were basically, "Good on ya, best thing he's had said to him all convention. I'm also going to tell him to 'pull his horns in'." It's organisational politics, and it works against established organisations. They lose the ability to examine and correct themselves. There are a few gods that need to be demolished e.g. the "status quo/tradition" god the "forsake what is right for the sake of unity" god the "it's right to obey the hierarchy even when its wrong" god.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 22:45:28 GMT -5
I also heard similar words from a middle aged worker here in NZ once. I told him, "Bollocks, you're just a little Hitler, and enjoying a power trip." I thought I was pretty much a goner after saying that to him. It got back to an older worker, JB, and he called me and a few others who were around. His words were basically, "Good on ya, best thing he's had said to him all convention. I'm also going to tell him to 'pull his horns in'." the "it's right to obey the hierarchy even when its wrong" god. what do you think Jesus meant when he said obey the pharisees and sadducees but don't do as they do means?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 15, 2019 0:58:55 GMT -5
the "it's right to obey the hierarchy even when its wrong" god. what do you think Jesus meant when he said obey the pharisees and sadducees but don't do as they do means? Jesus didn't say that.
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Post by mountain on Oct 15, 2019 11:01:12 GMT -5
Well Nathan, please explain why Jesus said (John 15.26) “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:”
[/font][/b][/b][/b] Do I believe Jesus or not? [/quote] ** You misinterpreted what jesus said... God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to guide the church while He went back to be by His side. The Holy Spirit is NOT God the Father or the Son either. Each Godhead has HIS own personality, mind and will of their own but they think the same way just identical triplets. [/quote] Nathan, it is one thing to believe your claim that the Nazis had an artillery battalion on the Moon during World War II, but it is entirely a different matter to believe your Godhead claims. If you properly researched what Godhead really means in the Bible, you will see that it simply means God, Godliness or God's nature, etc. These terms fit in entirely with the few places Godhead appears in scripture. The belief that Godhead means the three supposed persons of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, were forced into the designation by man to accommodate his trinitarian beliefs, but this is not the correct meaning of Godhead. God only has ONE will. How could Jesus do the will of his heavenly Father if there were at least two other wills than his own, i.e. the Father's and the Holy Spirit's wills? It makes a lot of sense. Huh? How could there be three separate personalities? Just think about this for a moment. Jesus was the express image of God. By denying himself, Jesus allowed the very nature of his indwelling God to shine through. His personality was the nature of his Father and God. He did not let three separate personalities shine through! Goodness me, Nathan. Please think before you post such rubbish.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 11:25:57 GMT -5
what do you think Jesus meant when he said obey the pharisees and sadducees but don't do as they do means? Jesus didn't say that. matt 23, your partially right he said scribe not sadducee...
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Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2019 14:02:36 GMT -5
the "it's right to obey the hierarchy even when its wrong" god. what do you think Jesus meant when he said obey the pharisees and sadducees but don't do as they do means? Its interesting that you equate workers with the scribes and pharisees. Jesus said to observe and do the OT law that the scribes and pharisees were teaching but don't follow their example. They could quote the letter of the law but they seemed ignorant of the spirit of the law.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 16:23:09 GMT -5
what do you think Jesus meant when he said obey the pharisees and sadducees but don't do as they do means? Its interesting that you equate workers with the scribes and pharisees. Jesus said to observe and do the OT law that the scribes and pharisees were teaching but don't follow their example. They could quote the letter of the law but they seemed ignorant of the spirit of the law. its simply a matter of who is in charge of the leadership of the group(yes we know christ and the HS are really in charge)and don't kid yourself ALL churches have leadership roles in them....
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Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2019 16:46:38 GMT -5
Its interesting that you equate workers with the scribes and pharisees. Jesus said to observe and do the OT law that the scribes and pharisees were teaching but don't follow their example. They could quote the letter of the law but they seemed ignorant of the spirit of the law. its simply a matter of who is in charge of the leadership of the group(yes we know christ and the HS are really in charge)and don't kid yourself ALL churches have leadership roles in them.... Yes, humans want to be part of a large organisation and a group with thousands of members will have leadership roles. As with all the teaching of Jesus, the carnal (earthly) mind cannot comprehend and accept his words... Matthew 20 New Living Translation (NLT)25...Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 26 But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. 28 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 16:59:21 GMT -5
its simply a matter of who is in charge of the leadership of the group(yes we know christ and the HS are really in charge)and don't kid yourself ALL churches have leadership roles in them.... Yes, humans want to be part of a large organisation and a group with thousands of members will have leadership roles. As with all the teaching of Jesus, the carnal (earthly) mind cannot comprehend and accept his words... Matthew 20 New Living Translation (NLT)25...Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. 26 But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. 28 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.” balance that out with this verse: Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
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