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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 18:49:07 GMT -5
Mmmmm ..... as far as being "God's anointed" if that was the case maybe God should have told him to speak up about CSA back in the 80's instead of creating the problem they have now nathan ! Also I wonder what SS thinks about this all now, considering he was send back home for speaking up about issues to do with CSA how many years ago when AK was in charge in South Australia?
A few of the friends, a worker/my former older companion and myself posted about CSA on my website and message board in the yr. 2000-2019 tried to warn and educate the 2x2 ministry and fellowship about great danger and horrific affect, brain damage to the VICTIMS for life by posting many helpful articles how to recognize, deal and get professional help. Two of the friends posted testimonies who had been abused by their father, and brother, and workers in the 2x2 fellowship.
web.archive.org/web/20151207103714/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/board/2/help-sexual-abused-fellowship-ministry
~~ Understanding the abusers minds, thoughts, and thinking process
web.archive.org/web/20151122044230/http://www.themamabeareffect.org/understanding-abusers.html |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 15, 2019 19:35:57 GMT -5
Back in the 1980s hardly anyone talked or mention about CSA openly and publicly it was a TABOO subject and nobody was going to believe their testimonies anyway. All hell began to break loose in 1990s when we read in the newspapers, about many RCC priests were molesting altar boys for many years back to the 60s or earlier time than that for hundred of years.
A few of the friends, a worker/my former older companion and myself posted about CSA on my website and message board in the yr. 2000-2019 tried to warn and educate the 2x2 ministry and fellowship about great danger and horrific affect, brain damage to the VICTIMS for life by posting many helpful articles how to recognize, deal and get professional help. Two of the friends posted testimonies who had been abused by their father, and brother, and workers in the 2x2 fellowship.
web.archive.org/web/20151207103714/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/board/2/help-sexual-abused-fellowship-ministry
~~ Understanding the abusers minds, thoughts, and thinking process
web.archive.org/web/20151122044230/http://www.themamabeareffect.org/understanding-abusers.html You missed my point nathan. If AK is "Gods annointed" as you stated why didn't he speak up in the 80s surely God didn't think it was okay in the 80s ? Therefore he is not Gods annointed but just another person who belongs to a church that thought it was okay to brush CSA under the mat. So now they are in "damage control" ! |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 19:58:53 GMT -5
You missed my point nathan . If AK is "Gods annointed" as you stated why didn't he speak up in the 80s surely God didn't think it was okay in the 80s ? Therefore he is not Gods annointed but just another person who belongs to a church that thought it was okay to brush CSA under the mat. So now they are in "damage control" !
You and most people on here probably did the same, sweep it under the carpet. Don't be so self-righteous, you would do the same back then. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 20:09:00 GMT -5
You will note that, in order to be told, "give the guy a break" (referring to Alan Kitto), all I had said was that he sounds like Muilenberg of Boeing. I read carefully Ross' statement further down.
It is evident from what Ross said that Kitto's statement was simply a generic/vanilla statement designed to try and preserve the status quo.
Let's go through what Ross said.
Allan Kitto's statement, released at Sunday morning meetings in NSW on 5 May 2019, does nothing to acknowledge or address the awful sexual abuse of children that has occurred in the "the Truth Church" at the hands of some members and workers in NSW and other states of Australia over many years.
It does not address the specific comments made by victims on the Sixty Minutes program.
This is absolutely correct.
These victims are just the "tip of the iceberg". They are representative of literally hundreds of victims over many years.
Living in Australia, and connected, Ross would have a far better idea of this than any of us.
The second paragraph in the statement is incorrect - not all matters raised by victims in the Sixty Minutes program have yet been dealt with by the legal authorities.
Again, if Ross is assisting the first victim of the 60 minutes program, he would know. So is Kitto not telling the truth?
This would be evident by both watching the program and making a phone call to those who know.
It is disappointing that some inaccurate information continues to be written and circulated to members of the church.
At the same time, it is worth acknowledging publicly the positive and progressive step forward that has been made by Wayne Dean and staff in South Australia/Northern Territory in the development of a child safety policy and worker code of conduct.
And Ross gives credit where credit is due
However, there is still much to be done in Australia to both acknowledge and address historical cases of Child Sexual Abuse and in most locations there are no written policies/procedures.
It is worth noting that whilst I am not a current member of "the Truth Church", I will continue to support and advocate in particular for the first victim on the Sixty Minutes program (and victims more generally) until the wrongs of the past are addressed and fixed. We grew up in the same small country town in NSW and whilst I am nearly 14 years older and had left the town by the time the abuse started at a very young age, I know the situation well from the time around when the victim first sought help prior to going to the Police.
There are many chapters yet to work through in this particular issue so I won't say more at this stage.
Ross implies here that he knows more than what is currently in the public arena, so in calling Kitto out, not only is he correct in doing so, but Nathan rushing to announce as Kitto as God's annointed, and suggesting I should give Kitto a break, is a bit rich. These victims are real people who have been not only hurt, but affected for life.
I'm going to suggest that Kitto is either being a Muilenberg and trying to not "rock the apple cart", or he is so out of his depth, that he is floundering, or is being poorly advised.
I'm sure a"God's annointed" would have acted pro-actively to not only nip these practices in the bud, but seek justice for the victims, and some form of reparation.
If it was one of my staff, and guilt was proven, the person would be down the road so fast their feet wouldn't touch the stairs, and that would be because of the Police's handcuffs.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 20:15:49 GMT -5
You missed my point nathan . If AK is "Gods annointed" as you stated why didn't he speak up in the 80s surely God didn't think it was okay in the 80s ? Therefore he is not Gods annointed but just another person who belongs to a church that thought it was okay to brush CSA under the mat. So now they are in "damage control" !
You and most people on here probably did the same, sweep it under the carpet. Don't be so self-righteous, you would do the same back then.Not true for me. I have been working in this field (it is part of our business model) and been involved in prosecutions since the late 80's, including being involved in a major international sting to break a Paedophile ring. An insidious evil is just that, and always has been. It is only in some of the churches that it was covered up.
What David did in the OT is not a precedent setting case for justifying others to do the same, and expecting the same treatment.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 15, 2019 20:18:45 GMT -5
You missed my point nathan . If AK is "Gods annointed" as you stated why didn't he speak up in the 80s surely God didn't think it was okay in the 80s ? Therefore he is not Gods annointed but just another person who belongs to a church that thought it was okay to brush CSA under the mat. So now they are in "damage control" !
You and most people on here probably did the same, sweep it under the carpet. Don't be so self-righteous, you would do the same back then. we are not talking about what I or anyone else would have done in the 80s, we are talking about what according to you one of "Gods annointed" done. So was it okay for "Gods annointed" to do this in the 80s ? The minute you say he is above others you have a problem and that is what has created these problems with all religious groups. So what excuse are you going to come up with for him sending SS home ...and that wasn't in the 80s ! |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 20:35:45 GMT -5
Even God's anointed make mistakes, you know. Just like king David, God's anointed and he was a murder, who killed a man so he could married his wife, because she was pregnant with his child. Back in the 80s, How many victims or abusers stories you read in any newspaper that mention about the priests had Sex with them? HARDLY, anyone talked about it, most of the cases were swept under the carpet in those days.
You and most people on here probably did the same, sweep it under the carpet. Don't be so self-righteous, you would do the same back then. Not true for me. I have been working in this field (it is part of our business model) and been involved in prosecutions since the late 80's, including being involved in a major international sting to break a Paedophile ring. An insidious evil is just that, and always has been. It is only in some of the churches that it was covered up.
What David did in the OT is not a precedent setting case for justifying others to do the same, and expecting the same treatment.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 20:38:40 GMT -5
Not true for me. I have been working in this field (it is part of our business model) and been involved in prosecutions since the late 80's, including being involved in a major international sting to break a Paedophile ring. An insidious evil is just that, and always has been. It is only in some of the churches that it was covered up.
What David did in the OT is not a precedent setting case for justifying others to do the same, and expecting the same treatment.
I don't live in Australia |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 20:38:52 GMT -5
Even God's anointed make mistakes, you know. Just like king David, God's anointed and he was a murder, who killed a man so he could married his wife, because she was pregnant with his child. Back in the 80s, How many victims or abusers stories you read in any newspaper that mention about the priests had Sex with them? HARDLY, anyone talked about it, most of the cases were swept under the carpet in those days.
You and most people on here probably did the same, sweep it under the carpet. Don't be so self-righteous, you would do the same back then. we are not talking about what I or anyone else would have done in the 80s, we are talking about what according to you one of "Gods annointed" done. So was it okay for "Gods annointed" to do this in the 80s ? The minute you say he is above others you have a problem and that is what has created these problems with all religious groups. So what excuse are you going to come up with for him sending SS home ...and that wasn't in the 80s !
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 20:40:25 GMT -5
You know these CSA things had happened a long time in Australia, did you report it to the authority? You a prosecutor, right?
I don't live in Australia |
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Post by Get off of TMB on May 15, 2019 20:40:58 GMT -5
Overseers have been removed in the US..Ira H., Robert Ingram, Leslie W., John Starkweather, and Roy Dietzel who was over Nebraska before the KS merger.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 20:59:10 GMT -5
I don't live in Australia 1) I am not a Crown Prosecutor, 2) we have no jurisdiction over what happens in Oz, 3) I had no knowledge of names or events until recently, but that is irrelevant anyway, 4) A Kiwi trying to look into rumours of something in Oz would be run out of town, 5) Australia can look after itself without a busy-bodying Kiwi, and 6) my job is to do what I do in my own country. |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 15, 2019 21:04:59 GMT -5
nathan we are not talking about what I or anyone else would have done in the 80s, we are talking about what according to you one of "Gods annointed" done. So was it okay for "Gods annointed" to do this in the 80s ? The minute you say he is above others you have a problem and that is what has created these problems with all religious groups. So what excuse are you going to come up with for him sending SS home ...and that wasn't in the 80s !
No he is NOT "Gods annointed" nathan, he is a human the same as the rest of us ! This is the fallout from people putting Workers on pedestals. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 21:08:33 GMT -5
It doesn't matter what he did, he is still God's anointed. God will judge him and the laws of the land will deal with him if he doesn't obey the laws.
No he is NOT "Gods annointed" nathan , he is a human the same as the rest of us ! This is the fallout from people putting Workers on pedestals. Well said Roselyn |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 23:12:16 GMT -5
Where do you live NZ? You don't have to live in Australia, you can send the authority to investigate them where you live. Did you do something like look into it to see what was going on? 1) I am not a Crown Prosecutor, 2) we have no jurisdiction over what happens in Oz, 3) I had no knowledge of names or events until recently, but that is irrelevant anyway, 4) A Kiwi trying to look into rumours of something in Oz would be run out of town, 5) Australia can look after itself without a busy-bodying Kiwi, and 6) my job is to do what I do in my own country. |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 23:15:46 GMT -5
No he is NOT "Gods annointed" nathan , he is a human the same as the rest of us ! This is the fallout from people putting Workers on pedestals. Well said Roselyn
Psalm 105:14-15 14 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 15 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm." 1 Chronicles 16:15-22 15 He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations, 16 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. 17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: 18 "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit." 19 When they were but few in number, few indeed, and strangers in it, 20 they wandered from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another. 21 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 22 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
God will deal and correct with His anointed accordingly and he will remove them like He did with King Saul from his position as a king of Israel. Leave the correction to God and the laws of the land to deal with his stubborn anointed ones. God will try the gentle ways first, then when they don't listen to His still more voice then He will use the ROD, to wake them up!
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 23:42:51 GMT -5
He is NOT God's anointed to you because you're an atheist, who doesn't believe in God but to most of 2x2s he is, and we respect God's choice and He will deal with him or the laws will deal with him eventually if he doesn't change his ways of handling CSA incorrectly among his staff.
Psalm 105:14-15 14 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 15 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm." 1 Chronicles 16:15-22 15 He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations, 16 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. 17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: 18 "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit." 19 When they were but few in number, few indeed, and strangers in it, 20 they wandered from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another. 21 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 22 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
God will deal and correct with His anointed accordingly and he will remove them like He did with King Saul from his position as a king of Israel. Leave the correction to God and the laws of the land to deal with his stubborn anointed ones. God will try the gentle ways first, then when they don't listen to His still more voice then He will use the ROD, to wake them up!
I don’t think the question is about whether one is an atheist, professing or non-professing when expressing how they feel re CSA handling. I don’t think the ‘God’s Choice’ has much relevance in this. I don’t think the law of the land would put much weight on ‘anointed by God’. It’s subjective. In trying to understand this scenario, these are my thoughts: I can qualify as a teacher, understanding what my professional role is and being accountable to perform all that teaching involves. Yes, one earns respect accordingly. But if I bring my profession into dis-repute, I cant expect respect for ‘whatever’ or for that matter the qualification/ name of a teacher. In fact teachers can lose their status rather quickly. |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 23:46:21 GMT -5
He is NOT God's anointed to you because you're an atheist, who doesn't believe in God but to most of 2x2s he is, and we respect God's choice and He will deal with him or the laws will deal with him eventually if he doesn't change his ways of handling CSA incorrectly among his staff.
Psalm 105:14-15 14 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 15 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm." 1 Chronicles 16:15-22 15 He remembers his covenant forever, the promise he made, for a thousand generations, 16 the covenant he made with Abraham, the oath he swore to Isaac. 17 He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant: 18 "To you I will give the land of Canaan as the portion you will inherit." 19 When they were but few in number, few indeed, and strangers in it, 20 they wandered from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another. 21 He allowed no one to oppress them; for their sake he rebuked kings: 22 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
God will deal and correct with His anointed accordingly and he will remove them like He did with King Saul from his position as a king of Israel. Leave the correction to God and the laws of the land to deal with his stubborn anointed ones. God will try the gentle ways first, then when they don't listen to His still more voice then He will use the ROD, to wake them up!
I don’t think the question is about whether one is an atheist, professing or non-professing when expressing how they feel re CSA handling. I don’t think the ‘God’s Choice’ has much relevance in this. I don’t think the law of the land would put much weight on ‘anointed by God’. It’s subjective. In trying to understand this scenario, these are my thoughts: I can qualify as a teacher, understanding what my professional role is and being accountable to perform all that teaching involves. Yes, one earns respect accordingly. But if I bring my profession into dis-repute, I cant expect respect for ‘whatever’ or for that matter the qualification/ name of a teacher. In fact teachers can lose their status rather quickly.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 15, 2019 23:50:43 GMT -5
1) I am not a Crown Prosecutor, 2) we have no jurisdiction over what happens in Oz, 3) I had no knowledge of names or events until recently, but that is irrelevant anyway, 4) A Kiwi trying to look into rumours of something in Oz would be run out of town, 5) Australia can look after itself without a busy-bodying Kiwi, and 6) my job is to do what I do in my own country. Why is that sad? That is how it is |
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Post by magpie1 on May 16, 2019 0:38:53 GMT -5
People especially younger ones are to scared to report a CSA or other sexual abuses,aren't they. Make a noise they would be ostracised or excommunicated. And as old Bro/sis workers often sai "teen girls are inclined to exagerate things. So you are blackened and we have heard the term loose used also,in our homes,never the Workers or blokes/guys,no never. Magpie
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 1:03:02 GMT -5
Some of those old brother and sister workers have a lot to answer for regarding things said, IMO.
I actually don’t believe teen girls are inclned to exaggerate things, It is a terrible experience and takes a lot of courage to even start talking about it [ and boys too]. Especially years ago and especially in the church.
But lets keep it in perspective, it’s happening in most churches with supposedly annointed men and women in senior positions.
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Post by chuck on May 16, 2019 9:03:58 GMT -5
What exactly did your supposedly all powerful and all good god do to prevent this situation in the first place?
You do realise that Jesus is not actually talking about children here?. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 16, 2019 12:59:40 GMT -5
Overseers have been removed in the US..Ira H., Robert Ingram, Leslie W., John Starkweather, and Roy Dietzel who was over Nebraska before the KS merger. Roy was overseer of Oklahoma after Nebraska. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 16, 2019 13:03:26 GMT -5
I think he tries to change for a long, long time... 2000 yrs ago, Jesus said " It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to offend these little ones." God loves and Cares for the little ones very much! Some people might get away with sexual abused with little ones in this life, but in the Judgment DAY they will NOT escape His ANGER! against those who hurt these little ones. God will give them 100 times more pains, suffering than they gave these little ones.
You do realise that Jesus is not actually talking about children here?. Again, Chuck, Jesus had a child set in their midst. That child would have understood Jesus to be talking about little children. What people forget that Jesus speaks with a double-edged sword many times and still does. Revelations tells us that. Jesus was talking about little children being offended as well as telling that his disciples should be like little children. And regardless, either group of little ones being offended would bring great woe unto the offender(s). |
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Post by nathan on May 16, 2019 13:11:21 GMT -5
I think he tries to change for a long, long time... 2000 yrs ago, Jesus said " It would be better for him to have a millstone hung around his neck and to be thrown into the sea than to offend these little ones." God loves and Cares for the little ones very much! Some people might get away with sexual abused with little ones in this life, but in the Judgment DAY they will NOT escape His ANGER! against those who hurt these little ones. God will give them 100 times more pains, suffering than they gave these little ones.
You do realise that Jesus is not actually talking about children here?. ** Really? So, tell me who was Jesus talking to? My understanding Jesus could have referring about the children welfare. Jesus also called his apostles little ones. |
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Post by nathan on May 16, 2019 13:19:38 GMT -5
You do realise that Jesus is not actually talking about children here?. Again, Chuck, Jesus had a child set in their midst. That child would have understood Jesus to be talking about little children. What people forget that Jesus speaks with a double-edged sword many times and still does. Revelations tells us that. Jesus was talking about little children being offended as well as telling that his disciples should be like little children. And regardless, either group of little ones being offended would bring great woe unto the offender(s). ** I agree that is my understanding also. |
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Post by snow on May 16, 2019 14:57:52 GMT -5
People especially younger ones are to scared to report a CSA or other sexual abuses,aren't they. Make a noise they would be ostracised or excommunicated. And as old Bro/sis workers often sai "teen girls are inclined to exagerate things. So you are blackened and we have heard the term loose used also,in our homes,never the Workers or blokes/guys,no never. Magpie And, Kitto hasn't removed that possibility either. He hasn't said that he won't excommunicate someone who goes to the authorities. He's threatened it in the past and says nothing about not doing it again. |
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Post by chuck on May 16, 2019 20:01:36 GMT -5
You do realise that Jesus is not actually talking about children here?. Again, Chuck, Jesus had a child set in their midst. That child would have understood Jesus to be talking about little children. What people forget that Jesus speaks with a double-edged sword many times and still does. Revelations tells us that. Jesus was talking about little children being offended as well as telling that his disciples should be like little children. And regardless, either group of little ones being offended would bring great woe unto the offender(s). No he wasn't talking about all little children literally at all. He also wasn't disregarding children that belived in him but in no way was he talking about the welfare of all little children like has been suggested in this CSA argument. Mattew 18:1 tells the story. Little ones refers to new believers also. |
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