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Post by nathan on May 14, 2019 11:27:30 GMT -5
Don't worry, if he doesn't change his way of doing things as a church head leader, someone above him/Graham S. will REMOVE him or demote him to a regular worker position, with no authority to do anything except making list for his field.
And if he doesn't listen or willing to change then God will remove him by taken him home before his time is up.... Just like Moses! God told him to strike the Rock only ONCE! but he struck it TWICE so God took him home before he could enter the promised land. God is in charge here! Do all you can but leave the REST for God to handle. God does a BETTER a job than all humans put together.
That’s been the whole problem! Leaving it up to God, when God has given us brains to figure out what is right or wrong. Also God dictated laws to Moses that clearly he expects to be followed. Do the workers not understand that when they aid and abet wrong doings, that they will have to answer just as if they themselves did the deed?
That is a wrong attitude and spirit to believe that, remember Jerome F and his companion almost spend time in prison, they did NOT understand in the laws of the land about NOT reporting on CSA abuser worker on their staff. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 14, 2019 18:18:31 GMT -5
Sounds like Muilenberg, of Boeing. ** Give a guy a break! Why, do have so negative to your overseers? The guy is trying to fix the problem, hoping the rest of the workers over there follow the laws guidance. Do I still need to give the guy a break? |
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Post by openingact34 on May 14, 2019 18:38:12 GMT -5
Was thinking, was it Julia Gillard, ex Prime Minister of Australia who saw the need to address the past wrongs done to Aboriginal people, to go forward and ...had the strength and wisdom to say “we’re sorry ! “ It stayed with me and and I am a N.Zealander. Why is it so hard to use those words? They are powerful words. They indicate strength not weakness. I believe, sometimes to set things back on the right track, we have to humble ourselves. I don't think the workers should apologize if they are not sincere. An inauthentic, sham apology not backed up by actions would ultimately cause more hurt. The way I read this letter, they will do the bare minimum to maintain compliance with the law. No additional initiatives, education for the friends, efforts to help victims. Most likely, those who raised and raise issues will still be considered "enemies of Truth". Bottom line: Nobody is sorry. This is just "persecution". |
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Post by joanna on May 14, 2019 19:40:37 GMT -5
Alan Kitto unfortunately exemplifies the typical reaction to the exposure of CSA within a church group. Weak-minded, deluded individuals who do not want to admit that criminal behaviour is occurring within their hallowed halls. The religious have more to protect. Their enormous claims that they are the Lord's children and are saved from the sins of the world. Whether it is popes, Alan Kitto and other senior 2x2 preachers, Justin Welby of the Church of England , the Salvation Army; Jehovah's Witnesses; the Evangelicals or the Jewish religion - these all share one commonality: they tried to cover-up CSA. We conducted 30 case studies on religious institutions. They revealed that many religious leaders knew of allegations of child sexual abuse yet failed to take effective action. Some ignored allegations and did not respond at all. Some treated alleged perpetrators leniently and failed to address the obvious risks they posed to children. Some concealed abuse and shielded perpetrators from accountability. Institutional reputations and individual perpetrators were prioritised over the needs of victims and their families.
Religious leaders and institutions across Australia have acknowledged that children suffered sexual abuse while in their care. Many have also accepted that their responses to this abuse were inadequate.Read more here Royal Commission Findings - Religious Institutions and CSAIt has been evidenced that the children within religious groups are at a greater risk of being abused than secular facilities. The factors which influence this include the increased trust in the church authority, leaders and fellow members by parents and children; the patriarchal hierarchy; the prolonged tendency for children to be innocent of sexual behaviours; that children are taught to believe in that which cannot be evidenced so when they are abused, the child victim can evoke god and the belief system as a legitimate reason for the abuse; the historic absence of CSA protocols due to a misguided trust in the 'Almighty's protection'. When i left the 2x2's i was completely unaware that child sex abuse was happening within this group nor any other religious group. Learning that the abuse of children is endemic within religious groups was just another nail in the coffin of the fact that a belief founded on faith is a negative entity. Alan Kitto and all the other deluded representatives of all church groups need a reality shock on many levels, not least for them to realise that they are continuing to fail the most innocent and vulnerable within their churches and to reform their attitudes STAT. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 19:46:10 GMT -5
Was thinking, was it Julia Gillard, ex Prime Minister of Australia who saw the need to address the past wrongs done to Aboriginal people, to go forward and ...had the strength and wisdom to say “we’re sorry ! “ It stayed with me and and I am a N.Zealander. Why is it so hard to use those words? They are powerful words. They indicate strength not weakness. I believe, sometimes to set things back on the right track, we have to humble ourselves. I don't think the workers should apologize if they are not sincere. An inauthentic, sham apology not backed up by actions would ultimately cause more hurt. The way I read this letter, they will do the bare minimum to maintain compliance with the law. No additional initiatives, education for the friends, efforts to help victims. Most likely, those who raised and raise issues will still be considered "enemies of Truth". Bottom line: Nobody is sorry. This is just "persecution". Food for thought. But surely by now, as ‘they’ contemplate on the trauma in victims lives they must feel bad about it. One person alone is not handling all this, am I right?? Surely, ‘they’ are not devoid of feeling?? |
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Post by snow on May 14, 2019 21:12:43 GMT -5
I don't think the workers should apologize if they are not sincere. An inauthentic, sham apology not backed up by actions would ultimately cause more hurt. The way I read this letter, they will do the bare minimum to maintain compliance with the law. No additional initiatives, education for the friends, efforts to help victims. Most likely, those who raised and raise issues will still be considered "enemies of Truth". Bottom line: Nobody is sorry. This is just "persecution". Food for thought. But surely by now, as ‘they’ contemplate on the trauma in victims lives they must feel bad about it. One person alone is not handling all this, am I right?? Surely, ‘they’ are not devoid of feeling?? That's what would be a reasonable conclusion, but I'm not sure it's true. For some I'm sure they feel bad for the survivors of CSA. But first people have to actually acknowledge it's happening and not just another ploy of 'the world' to make us 'look bad/persecute us'. There are some in the group that don't believe it's even happening and those who have 'come out' are just bitter, lying, and trying to get back at 'us'. Those people can't be reached. But those who do believe it's happening, I think that they do feel awful about what's happening to the children. I'm not sure they know to what extent it was hidden and not even acknowledged by the workers or even the parents in some cases. I often wonder how many children went to their parents with this and were told they were lying or just trying to get attention. We know from the stories that some definitely were told this. I just have to hope that most parents believed them and at least tried to go to the workers about it if not the authorities. They may have dropped it on the workers advice, that has happened too. But with any luck this 60 minutes will be the wake up call and parents will bypass the workers and go straight to the police. |
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Post by nathan on May 14, 2019 22:06:48 GMT -5
** Give a guy a break! Why, do have so negative to your overseers? The guy is trying to fix the problem, hoping the rest of the workers over there follow the laws guidance. Do I still need to give the guy a break? |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 14, 2019 22:20:02 GMT -5
Give me a break! I'm a Kiwi, not an Aussie, and he's not my leader....and you're judging me Nathan. I thought you were against that!
PS: Was just some good natured ribbing - don't take it too seriously
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 22:37:55 GMT -5
I understood Prag was making comments on ‘actions taken, the handling of a situation ( which a lot of folk appear to be concerned about).
He didn’t call him a goat, a tare or a bad fish.
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Post by speak on May 14, 2019 22:40:05 GMT -5
Give me a break! I'm a Kiwi, not an Aussie, and he's not my leader....and you're judging me. I thought you were against that!
PS: Was just some good natured ribbing - don't take it too seriously
Oh prag you must be kind to the folk across the ditch, really I mean they can't help it.  |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 14, 2019 23:41:18 GMT -5
Alan Kitto unfortunately exemplifies the typical reaction to the exposure of CSA within a church group. Weak-minded, deluded individuals who do not want to admit that criminal behaviour is occurring within their hallowed halls. The religious have more to protect. Their enormous claims that they are the Lord's children and are saved from the sins of the world. Whether it is popes, Alan Kitto and other senior 2x2 preachers, Justin Welby of the Church of England , the Salvation Army; Jehovah's Witnesses; the Evangelicals or the Jewish religion - these all share one commonality: they tried to cover-up CSA. We conducted 30 case studies on religious institutions. They revealed that many religious leaders knew of allegations of child sexual abuse yet failed to take effective action. Some ignored allegations and did not respond at all. Some treated alleged perpetrators leniently and failed to address the obvious risks they posed to children. Some concealed abuse and shielded perpetrators from accountability. Institutional reputations and individual perpetrators were prioritised over the needs of victims and their families.
Religious leaders and institutions across Australia have acknowledged that children suffered sexual abuse while in their care. Many have also accepted that their responses to this abuse were inadequate.Read more here Royal Commission Findings - Religious Institutions and CSAIt has been evidenced that the children within religious groups are at a greater risk of being abused than secular facilities. The factors which influence this include the increased trust in the church authority, leaders and fellow members by parents and children; the patriarchal hierarchy; the prolonged tendency for children to be innocent of sexual behaviours; that children are taught to believe in that which cannot be evidenced so when they are abused, the child victim can evoke god and the belief system as a legitimate reason for the abuse; the historic absence of CSA protocols due to a misguided trust in the 'Almighty's protection'. When i left the 2x2's i was completely unaware that child sex abuse was happening within this group nor any other religious group. Learning that the abuse of children is endemic within religious groups was just another nail in the coffin of the fact that a belief founded on faith is a negative entity. Alan Kitto and all the other deluded representatives of all church groups need a reality shock on many levels, not least for them to realise that they are continuing to fail the most innocent and vulnerable within their churches and to reform their attitudes STAT. The CSA and other child abuse instances are also carefully guarded or/and ignored. Families guard their members. Very tightly. Sometimes it’s due to reprisal fears. Sometimes they don’t want to cause any trouble to where everybody suffers. Thus pointing out constantly that it’s religions who are so evil, is really not looking at the whole issue. It’s just been the last several decades that anything has been done about the abuse. It’s always been a lesser degrees need for criminal prosecution for so many years. It’s the same way with rape. Children and women have always been made to suffer due to being possessions or chattel. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 14, 2019 23:43:36 GMT -5
Do I still need to give the guy a break? IMO, I actually am wondering if you know what a brother’s keeper is? |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 0:13:24 GMT -5
A break is a rest! Don't BEAT and KICK your fellow man/brother in Christ when he is DOWN. You claim to be a 2x2 but you act like an ex-2x2 with your attitude toward your brother and leader of your church. You're NOT your brother's keeper according to your spirit, and that is ashamed. IMO, I actually am wondering if you know what a brother’s keeper is?
Do you scream, poking fun of, and kick your brother/sister in the same Faith when he is down or in trouble?
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 0:16:32 GMT -5
Give me a break! I'm a Kiwi, not an Aussie, and he's not my leader....and you're judging me Nathan. I thought you were against that!
PS: Was just some good natured ribbing - don't take it too seriously
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 0:29:46 GMT -5
He is still the Church leader in that part of the world, your neighborhood. So, please show some respect for him as God's anointed... Remember, he is a human being and make plenty mistakes so are we. The senior behaviour, the lack of integrity, does not invite respect. I have not seen any personal name calling. That’s the difference. Respect for victims is the priority. ( and I think you know that). even when they are trying to rectify things and set things right with an new outsider? |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 0:32:36 GMT -5
He is still the Church leader in that part of the world, your neighborhood. So, please show some respect for him as God's anointed... Remember, he is a human being and make plenty mistakes so are we. The senior behaviour, the lack of integrity, does not invite respect. I have not seen any personal name calling. That’s the difference. Respect for victims is the priority. ( and I think you know that).
The senior workers must step in and encourage the overseers who are NOT able to make the right choice and decision to step down for the sake of the kingdom. Let the younger generation of new overseer who are in tune with what is going in the world to guide the church in the right direction by going forward NOT backwards.
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 1:20:33 GMT -5
So Nathan you clicked like on Wally’s Comment. Ok ? I did not understand his comment. What was your understanding if it?
I believe Wally, is talking about overseers from other countries sent Graham Snow (New outsider) in helping Allan K. to change his way to cooperate with the laws of the land on CSA. |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 15, 2019 2:00:18 GMT -5
Give me a break! I'm a Kiwi, not an Aussie, and he's not my leader....and you're judging me Nathan. I thought you were against that! PS: Was just some good natured ribbing - don't take it too seriously
Mmmmm ..... as far as being "God's anointed" if that was the case maybe God should have told him to speak up about CSA back in the 80's instead of creating the problem they have now nathan ! Also I wonder what SS thinks about this all now, considering he was send back home for speaking up about issues to do with CSA how many years ago when AK was in charge in South Australia? |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 15, 2019 3:00:14 GMT -5
IMO, I actually am wondering if you know what a brother’s keeper is?
Do you scream, poking fun of, and kick your brother/sister in the same Faith when he is down or in trouble?
I don’t get that Kitto is in trouble! However I don’t kick people that are down. However if they’re down due to their own behaviors, then I might scream or forcefully tell them they should have known better. And that hopefully the bad experience will teach them to be better listeners next time. That’s regardless of their faith or non-faith. Fact is if somebody is professing faith in Jesus, I’d probably expect them to be more careful . |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 15, 2019 3:53:47 GMT -5
Give me a break! I'm a Kiwi, not an Aussie, and he's not my leader....and you're judging me. I thought you were against that!
PS: Was just some good natured ribbing - don't take it too seriously
Oh prag you must be kind to the folk across the ditch, really I mean they can't help it. That's right, next they will try an underarm delivery just so they can win the game. |
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Post by speak on May 15, 2019 4:24:51 GMT -5
Oh prag you must be kind to the folk across the ditch, really I mean they can't help it. That's right, next they will try an underarm delivery just so they can win the game. stinky  |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 7:49:09 GMT -5
So, tell me what is a brother's keeper according to you? Here is mine.... The phrase "my brother's keeper" is a reference to the Biblical story of Cain and Abel from the book of Genesis. It is generally understood to mean being responsible for the welfare of a brother or other sibling or, by extension, for other human beings in general.
Do you scream, poking fun of, and kick your brother/sister in the same Faith when he is down or in trouble?
I don’t get that Kitto is in trouble! However I don’t kick people that are down. However if they’re down due to their own behaviors, then I might scream or forcefully tell them they should have known better. And that hopefully the bad experience will teach them to be better listeners next time. That’s regardless of their faith or non-faith. Fact is if somebody is professing faith in Jesus, I’d probably expect them to be more careful .
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 7:57:20 GMT -5
He is still the Church leader in that part of the world, your neighborhood. So, please show some respect for him as God's anointed... Remember, he is a human being and make plenty mistakes so are we. please, Pray for him to accept the right way, that God will guide and lead him in the right path to heal the victims. Mmmmm ..... as far as being "God's anointed" if that was the case maybe God should have told him to speak up about CSA back in the 80's instead of creating the problem they have now nathan ! Also I wonder what SS thinks about this all now, considering he was send back home for speaking up about issues to do with CSA how many years ago when AK was in charge in South Australia?
A few of the friends, a worker/my former older companion and myself posted about CSA on my website and message board in the yr. 2000-2019 tried to warn and educate the 2x2 ministry and fellowship about great danger and horrific affect, brain damage to the VICTIMS for life by posting many helpful articles how to recognize, deal and get professional help. Two of the friends posted testimonies who had been abused by their father, and brother, and workers in the 2x2 fellowship.
web.archive.org/web/20151207103714/http://2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/board/2/help-sexual-abused-fellowship-ministry
~~ Understanding the abusers minds, thoughts, and thinking process
web.archive.org/web/20151122044230/http://www.themamabeareffect.org/understanding-abusers.html |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 15, 2019 10:49:09 GMT -5
I don’t get that Kitto is in trouble! However I don’t kick people that are down. However if they’re down due to their own behaviors, then I might scream or forcefully tell them they should have known better. And that hopefully the bad experience will teach them to be better listeners next time. That’s regardless of their faith or non-faith. Fact is if somebody is professing faith in Jesus, I’d probably expect them to be more careful .
People are stupid to think only AK is the only one neglectful. I can’t believe that everyone will think that the problem is only in AK’s jurisdiction! |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 11:26:26 GMT -5
Yes, Allan Kitto name is MUD, heard, and saw it around the world by (2x2, exes, non believers, Christians) through Ytube. 60 min. CSA Australians youtube got 200,000 plus hit in a week. The 2x2s is now known by the world cult-like behavior and CSA problems.
People are stupid to think only AK is the only one neglectful. I can’t believe that everyone will think that the problem is only in AK’s jurisdiction! ** I didn't say it was The only problem in Aust with CSA. But now, Allan K. name, reputation is MUD for yrs to come thanks, to the video of 60 min. on YouTube. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 15, 2019 13:30:05 GMT -5
People are stupid to think only AK is the only one neglectful. I can’t believe that everyone will think that the problem is only in AK’s jurisdiction! ** I didn't say it was The only problem in Aust with CSA. But now, Allan K. name, reputation is MUD for yrs to come thanks, to the video of 60 min. on YouTube. No, the issue is AK did all those dirty and neglectful deeds and now he’s been caught with his pants down and he is powerless to change that. It’s all due to his own behaviors. People get by with such neglectful and hurtful behaviors. Then when they are called on the carpet about them, it’s the poor me thing takes over. Nathan, accountably has to start somewhere if nothing is going to change the CSA horrors. That’s just the way the cookie crumbled. |
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Post by nathan on May 15, 2019 13:54:33 GMT -5
** I didn't say it was The only problem in Aust with CSA. But now, Allan K. name, reputation is MUD for yrs to come thanks, to the video of 60 min. on YouTube. No, the issue is AK did all those dirty and neglectful deeds and now he’s been caught with his pants down and he is powerless to change that. It’s all due to his own behaviors. People get by with such neglectful and hurtful behaviors. Then when they are called on the carpet about them, it’s the poor me thing takes over. Nathan, accountably has to start somewhere if nothing is going to change the CSA horrors. That’s just the way the cookie crumbled. ** That is what I have saying on CSA for almost 20 yrs in trying to educate and inform the workers and the friends. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 15, 2019 15:46:33 GMT -5
When people start holding workers responsible, even if they can’t do anything about the CSA issues; and the workers begin to realize their reputations have become less then desirable, they then either will straighten up or fold the church.
Though I long suspect the elder workers in charge presently could care less as their pockets are well padded, that’s going to be throwing all the other workers out of jobs and income.
A few dyed-hards might hang in til they physically or mentally cannot.
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