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Post by MsMarie on Jun 17, 2006 4:59:50 GMT -5
Reading posts here and in some private correspondence with professing members even here in UK, it is becoming apparent to me at least, that there is a definite split in opinion and practice on exclusivity and 'rules' both with friends and workers.
From the point of view of an ex like myself, this is a desirable and long awaited development and probably a natural result of knowing more about the history and founding of the church. I also think that this will in the end, probably ensure its survival.
What opinions do others have about this?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 17, 2006 6:27:47 GMT -5
I think there has been a natural split for a number of years. There have been those that think others are either too soft (too much play, too much fun, too much vacation, too much visiting - not always about "spiritual things", maybe a bit "wordly') vs. the the hardliners.
Here in the United States there has been a east-west split for years....over remarriage after divorce.
I think the workers' church will continue. No reason for it to not.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 9:07:12 GMT -5
The split, as I see it, appears to be centered around whether or not Jesus is God. Even then, those I have talked to who say that Jesus is God cannot explain how this discounts a works-based salvation -- and they refuse to use the word, Trinity. That's been my experience.
Christ's. Jessi
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Post by USA on Jun 17, 2006 9:19:36 GMT -5
The split is on many issues at many different levels. Divorce/remarriage is one. The extent of women's dress code/bun/hair is another. Extra curricular activities..movies, theater, sports is another. Saved by grace through faith or works is another. I'm sure Jesus is God is another, but it isn't an obvious one where I come from. Nobody questions that one. Here, Jesus is the son of God and nothing more is mentioned. Trinity is a term for worldly religions. Everyone outside is unsaved, period, amen. That one seems most universal, no?
Workers are definitely split on the D/R issue in the US. Heatedly so.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 11:09:48 GMT -5
The split is on many issues at many different levels. Divorce/remarriage is one. The extent of women's dress code/bun/hair is another. Extra curricular activities..movies, theater, sports is another. Saved by grace through faith or works is another. I'm sure Jesus is God is another, but it isn't an obvious one where I come from. Nobody questions that one. Here, Jesus is the son of God and nothing more is mentioned. Trinity is a term for worldly religions. Everyone outside is unsaved, period, amen. That one seems most universal, no? Workers are definitely split on the D/R issue in the US. Heatedly so. The central issue, really, is whether or not Jesus is God. All other views disappear once this is established because God's grace is all that matters for salvation. All other issues are "works" and Eph 2:9 explains that salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast. 2x2s and those half out and half in are very worried about all these other things because Christ is not the central focus, but outward appearances. When one says, "Jesus is the son of God" do they define what they mean? Nothing more? Sorry. It's been a long time since I talked to other members of this cult (besides my mother) for any length of time. And she definitely believes that Jesus is not God. A worker I met last year, Sam McCracken, assented when I asked him if he thought Jesus was God. He DID disavow the word TRINITY, but then could not explain to me how it is that Jesus is God. He is just saying that to seem more Biblical. He is wrong to pretend that the Lord is One, deceptive to say it and not believe it or be able to explain it. He's definitely a false teacher. Concerning salvation and how one is saved, he pointed me to the FOUR SOILS and said something about an apple seed and a thousand years. Very clearly and succintly expressed to one who is worldy how to be saved by Jesus. Total opposite of Acts 16:30. Divorce, remarriage, dress, bun, har, movies, theater, sports, and then . . . SAVED BY GRACE is another? Saved by Grace and Jesus is God are the same thing, no? Peace in the Lord, Jessi
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Post by Peace on Jun 17, 2006 11:15:56 GMT -5
Bring on the splits...! Maybe it's the only thing which will make people think!!! ------- S.
I Cor 11:18,19 -- "I hear that there be divisions among you ; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
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Post by kelvin on Jun 17, 2006 11:20:23 GMT -5
I think "split" is too harsh a word. It implies seperation between two halves. As a UK 2x2, & an "elder", I can say that there are a significant number of F&W who do indeed have a good grasp on who Jesus is (God the Son), and what Grace is (unmerited favour of God), who are not exclusive in their views, but at the same time accept the fact that some fellow F&W still need time for God to bring them to these realisations.
I do have to take issue with Jessi in declaring "Sam McCracken" (who I've never heard of) a "false teacher". My opinion is that we are all at various stages of revelation. It doesn't all come at once, some bits take years, and none of us ever end up perfect this side of the grave. So to take someones misunderstanding on a specific issue and extrapolate that to "false teacher" is harsh judgement. In the same way that I think its wrong of F&W to judge all other Christians lost, I think its wrong of ex 2x2 Christians to judge 2x2s false. While there's a desire to seek God there's hope.
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Post by selah on Jun 17, 2006 11:34:18 GMT -5
Hi Kelvin,
I appreciate your thoughtful post.
The false prophets Jesus spoke about, were those who were trying to get to the Father through a different way than through Jesus Himself.
I think most f&w believe they are going through Jesus. But sometimes the perception of who Jesus is and how that translates into their practical and spiritual lives, can make quite a difference in how they experience and teach about Him.
That's true for us all...not just f&w. We all need to continue praying that we see Jesus more clearly every day.
Thanks again for your post.
Blessings, Linda
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lisa
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Post by lisa on Jun 17, 2006 11:40:40 GMT -5
As a long time professing person (maybe I'm the oldest here?) I can state that I've never felt any threat to my convictions about God the Son, to not being what some here might call an exclusivist, nor to my reliance on Grace alone and not works for my salvation. (that doesn't mean that works are unimportant, just that they do not cause salvation, rather, are a product of it).
I perfectly understand that in some places, some people make noises and threats, but I for one have never had any made to me, and I know for sure that in this I'm not alone.
Reading on here occasionally, as I do, I wonder if more could be done about bridging gaps, than about writing screeds on the internet bewailing them.
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studlearning unplugged
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Post by studlearning unplugged on Jun 17, 2006 11:47:58 GMT -5
I feel that this is a good place to repeat part of a prior post.
From my new Cambridge King James Version Bible, (Dictionary in Back), I read the following which is contained in the description of what Blasphemy is.
"The context shows that this sin consists in wilfully regarding as evil and the work of the devil something which is plainly good and the work of the Spirit of God. A man who does this is in a state of wilful rebellion against the Divine Spirit, that only Power capable of reforming and sanctifying him. His forgineness is therefore a moral impossibility.
If scripture has revealed to me that God the Son is 100% God as part of the God Head should I not proclaim it?
If I observe the Holy Spirit of God working in people who are not in the fellowship of the F&W, and belong to another fellowship, should I not proclaim it?
And when one should make these proclaimations, is it not to the Glory of God?
Then should any man or women say unto to you, be still and do not proclaim it for it cannot be. For the sake of our ministry and fellowship you should deny this. I use the word "Deny" because it is exactly what it is when told not to share this in meetings as it is not edifying.
Then for me---Ministers who preach the Gospel who tell me stuff like this are false. I have three choices.
1. Proclaim my witness to the Glory of God and not commit Blasphemy.
2. Proclaim my witness to what I believe is the Glory of God's work and not commit Blasphemy because there is no sin in being wrong.
or 3. Deny and commit the unforgivable sin of Blasphem.
I WILL NOT EVER DENY WHAT I OBSERVE AS THE HOLY WORKS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE F&W FELLOWSHIP. I WILL NOT EVER DENY THE FULL DIETY OF JESUS AS PART OF THE GOD HEAD AND BEING FULLY GOD AS GOD THE SON. IT IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE AND ALL OF THE BIBLE PROCLAIMS THIS BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT. LEARN BEFORE TO STAND SILENT WHAT THE COST IS OF FITTING IN
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lisa
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Post by lisa on Jun 17, 2006 11:55:55 GMT -5
Studlearning (unusual name eh?)
I'm not sure if your post was intended to be a reply to mine? Maybe the timing of posting from different countries is something I don't understand.
If it was a reply, I don't understand what you are saying. When you say ""should I not proclaim it?", do you mean that it is an obligation to proclaim, or do you mean that you should not be prevented from proclaiming if you wished to?
I'm not a proclaimer, and don't feel obligated to be one. But equally I don't think it right to prevent Godly proclamation.
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studylearning to Lisa
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Post by studylearning to Lisa on Jun 17, 2006 12:00:36 GMT -5
I should not be prevented from proclaiming if I wished to.
But, the issue is more then just proclaiming.. The issue is being told that you cannot because it is not true. That is the issue.
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Post by MsMarie on Jun 17, 2006 12:33:35 GMT -5
How great now is the need for workers to hold a Council from all over the world to decide upon their worldwide doctrine and to clarify what should be preached to all their members. If only there was a clear statement of doctrinal belief and practice like other churches have.
Those of us who were in the 'hard' school can barely believe those who seem to be in something else entirely and I now realise that we are all telling the truth of our own experiences. This church varies in what is taught, not just from country to country, but from county to county (or state from state) and town from town, which probably reflects the personal opinions and interpretations of different workers. I started on exclusivity, but look at the number of differences others here have posted.
To say that the members are at different stages of development is just not fair on those even now being subjected to the harsher disciplines, rather than the 'softer' versions.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 13:04:56 GMT -5
I think "split" is too harsh a word. It implies seperation between two halves. As a UK 2x2, & an "elder", I can say that there are a significant number of F&W who do indeed have a good grasp on who Jesus is (God the Son), and what Grace is (unmerited favour of God), who are not exclusive in their views, but at the same time accept the fact that some fellow F&W still need time for God to bring them to these realisations. Kelvin: For me, anyone who claims the title of teacher needs to understand the basic principles of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If he cannot explain Salvation (never mentioned Jesus Christ to me), he is a false teacher. He's been doing this a long time. He is older. When he started telling the silly story of the apple seed, I was reminded of II Tim 4:3 and asked him to stop spinning yarns and giving me fables and wives tales (I Tim 4:7). Also, when I wrote him a letter after my meeting with him, I believe I did include these verses. Also, James 3:1 - Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. I do not say all 2x2s are not elect. I believe there are many elect of God in the 2x2 system. The Father will draw them and HAS DRAWN THEM. He drew me. I responded well to strong teaching straight from the Bible and would not at first believe the real name given to this group. Cult. It was started by one man who believed in extra-biblical revelation. There is no “straighten out your doctrine” and become, here. This is heresy. Preaching another Jesus is heresy. FIRST OF ALL, COME OUT OF HIDING, TEACHERS AND WRITE OUT A STATEMENT OF FAITH FOR ALL TO PERUSE. I have given an example of a specific individual and anyone living in Virginia would know SM. When I say 2x2s, I am saying the form and the system which does not adhere to the teachings of Christ, not individuals, whom I don't know are the Lord's. Only God knows this. I wish you good providence, Kelvin. God explained it all to me. The Holy Spirit leads those who are His into all truth -- and they shall be taught by God (Jn 6:45). Love in the Lord, Jessi
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Post by christine on Jun 17, 2006 14:10:12 GMT -5
I too think that "split" is a hard word to use. I see this as diversity of opinion. In some ways I'm glad there can exist some diversity of opinion on some of these matters.
I've noticed that some in meeting do not appreciate some others speaking about Jesus as God, but others support it. Its a mixed bag.
I've been to a Baptist church a few times with a friend, and notice that they have the same diversity of opinion on similar matters. They also have those who insist on conformation to the group norms, and those that refuse to conform.
Perhaps this exists in most churches? It sure does in ours. (F&W)
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Post by selah on Jun 17, 2006 14:41:14 GMT -5
A Council would be a great idea, and it's biblical!
I do think a special reconciliation time would be important too. We need to come together in love, forgiving, making ammends and moving on as the body of believers must do.
Then all the f&w need to do, is openly state that their group is NOT the ONLY way, but Jesus IS...and that a true "professing" person is one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit...not in addition to accepting their fellowship. They would need to come to terms with the few essential issues, like Jesus is God, Grace etc.
All the other issues like what to wear, where to meet, method of ministry, tv or no tv are variable issues and not essential to the redemptive Good News of Jesus Christ. Like all other churches there are great degrees of variation concerning these things.
The variety of beliefs is very evident on this board. To some it is confusing. To others it is challenging. And to others it is a sign of a healthy body of Christ. We are not supposed to be clones. Each one is unique for a purpose.
I don't know this quote well or even who said it, but I'll give it a try:
In essentials - unity, in non-essentials - liberty, in all things - charity.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 17, 2006 15:52:43 GMT -5
I've actually, in all my life, heard a 2x2er who thinks Jesus is God. Most 2x2ers are under the impression that "the trinity" means Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit... as they are all one being. Others believe the trinity is Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God, God is God. All spirits being God, separately.
I do agree there is a split. I most often notice the split between those who center their lives on love and passion for God and those who center their lives on the appearance of love and passion (ie, those who believe in these rules like, women should only wear long dresses, tvs are not allowed, alcohol is the work of the devil, etc etc.)
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Post by Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 21:20:45 GMT -5
How great now is the need for workers to hold a Council from all over the world to decide upon their worldwide doctrine and to clarify what should be preached to all their members. If only there was a clear statement of doctrinal belief and practice like other churches have. Those of us who were in the 'hard' school can barely believe those who seem to be in something else entirely and I now realise that we are all telling the truth of our own experiences. This church varies in what is taught, not just from country to country, but from county to county (or state from state) and town from town, which probably reflects the personal opinions and interpretations of different workers. I started on exclusivity, but look at the number of differences others here have posted. To say that the members are at different stages of development is just not fair on those even now being subjected to the harsher disciplines, rather than the 'softer' versions. The basis for all truth is the Holy Word of Jesus. wouldn't you agree? What is the "hard school?" That thing about workers holding a council. It will never happen. Because false teachers do not gather around the light and write stuff down (and sign their real names to it and publish it). Satan doesn't care what you believe, so long as what you believe is wrong. King Jesus Lives, Jessi
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Post by ilylo on Jun 17, 2006 21:41:27 GMT -5
There was a massive gathering of workers at the Hector convention grounds in 1994, I believe. No surprise that not a single word of what was discussed came to light.
I doubt that any such "council" held in this day would ever produce any such statement of faith.
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Post by This year on Jun 17, 2006 21:58:16 GMT -5
There was a massive gathering of workers at the Hector convention grounds in 1994, I believe. No surprise that not a single word of what was discussed came to light. I doubt that any such "council" held in this day would ever produce any such statement of faith. Wasn't there a large meeting in Eastern US this year??
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Post by MsMarie on Jun 18, 2006 2:57:31 GMT -5
I am all for diversity and the tolerance of different opinions, especially on the lesser issues. What does bother me though is that where the old school is still applied in all its rigid rules, people are still feeling compelled to leave for these reasons. In fact, my husband felt he had no choice other than to reluctantly leave, having been taken to task by workers letter over attending a service in another church (an army memorial service, he is an old soldier). He felt this was morally wrong.
Until workers can agree on the major issues, let alone the minor ones, they will continue to lose members through the confusion.
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Post by Jessi on Jun 18, 2006 11:59:05 GMT -5
I am all for diversity and the tolerance of different opinions, especially on the lesser issues. What does bother me though is that where the old school is still applied in all its rigid rules, people are still feeling compelled to leave for these reasons. In fact, my husband felt he had no choice other than to reluctantly leave, having been taken to task by workers letter over attending a service in another church (an army memorial service, he is an old soldier). He felt this was morally wrong. Until workers can agree on the major issues, let alone the minor ones, they will continue to lose members through the confusion. I believe they are leaving because they finally understand that works (ie, all those minor issues) cannot save (Is 64:6-7). Satan loves blurred lines. Works or Grace, Works or Grace. If the F&W are losing members, the angels in heaven are rejoicing because one more sinner understands that works do not save. The worst extremes usually start with slight deviations - John McCarthur Peace in the Lord, Jessi
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 19, 2006 19:54:06 GMT -5
RE Jessi wrote: Saved by Grace and Jesus is God are the same thing, no?
NOT! IMO, one would have to make a HUGE LEAP to conclude that the two are the same thing. Could you share with us where you are coming from, Jessi, on this statement? You sure lost me! Thanx CK
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Brenda
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Post by Brenda on Jun 19, 2006 21:46:38 GMT -5
funny thing about this split is-- it is the west coast that is tougher on the divorce issue--
I am a native of Calif- and when I was professing we always got a bad rap for being too lenient-- but when it comes to divorce-- that is a HUGE no no in Calif.
just my thoughts
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Post by Jessi on Jun 24, 2006 9:38:40 GMT -5
RE Jessi wrote: Saved by Grace and Jesus is God are the same thing, no? NOT! IMO, one would have to make a HUGE LEAP to conclude that the two are the same thing. Could you share with us where you are coming from, Jessi, on this statement? You sure lost me! Thanx CK Absolutely, Cherie. Perhaps I need to make what I say more clear from the outset. Sorry. Here goes: Grace = God’s goodness toward those who deserve only punishment. Trinity = God is three persons in one Godhead: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT EACH PERSON IS FULLY GOD. If one does not believe that Jesus is God at some basic level, how does he achieve true saving faith? ELECTION - God the Father, in His Grace and Mercy, chose some out of the world as a gift to God the Son (Jn 17:2,6,9) from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), who purchased them with His own blood (Acts 20:28). GOD ELECTS: It is God the Father who ordains us to eternal life (Acts 13:48) and God the Father who draws His elect to Christ (Jn 6:44). REGENERATION - God the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts to believe (Jn 3:5-8, 14:26) and He opens our hearts to the Word as it is preached to us. GOD TEACHES: God the Holy Spirit teaches us (Is 48:17, Job 27:11, 36:22, I Cor 2:13). SALVATION: God is the only savior (Is 43:11, 44:6-7) and He will not give his glory to another (Is 42:8). He saves us, not for our sake, but for his own sake, His OWN glory, so that we don’t pollute His Name (Is 48:11). GOD ALONE SAVES: If I separate the Grace of God from Who God is, then I disregard the one (Holy Spirit) and have two – one of which cannot save because he is A CREATURE and a creature who is not perfect and sinless can in no way save. If one believes that Jesus is not God, then how can He have a Savior? That’s my argument for the Trinity. Grace = Jesus is God. Every man deserves to go straight to hell because we all sin. We all deserve justice and the punishment for sin is death. God chose some in the world as a gift for Jesus. They get mercy. The rest get justice. But NO ONE gets injustice. SO, WITHOUT JESUS, WHO IS GOD, THERE WOULD BE NO GRACE. ONLY JUSTICE. Jesus is God, Jessi
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Post by A Gift on Jun 24, 2006 10:16:47 GMT -5
RE Jessi wrote: Saved by Grace and Jesus is God are the same thing, no? NOT! IMO, one would have to make a HUGE LEAP to conclude that the two are the same thing. Could you share with us where you are coming from, Jessi, on this statement? You sure lost me! Thanx CK Absolutely, Cherie. Perhaps I need to make what I say more clear from the outset. Sorry. Here goes: Grace = God’s goodness toward those who deserve only punishment. Trinity = God is three persons in one Godhead: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT EACH PERSON IS FULLY GOD. If one does not believe that Jesus is God at some basic level, how does he achieve true saving faith? ELECTION - God the Father, in His Grace and Mercy, chose some out of the world as a gift to God the Son (Jn 17:2,6,9) from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), who purchased them with His own blood (Acts 20:28). GOD ELECTS: It is God the Father who ordains us to eternal life (Acts 13:48) and God the Father who draws His elect to Christ (Jn 6:44). REGENERATION - God the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts to believe (Jn 3:5-8, 14:26) and He opens our hearts to the Word as it is preached to us. GOD TEACHES: God the Holy Spirit teaches us (Is 48:17, Job 27:11, 36:22, I Cor 2:13). SALVATION: God is the only savior (Is 43:11, 44:6-7) and He will not give his glory to another (Is 42:8). He saves us, not for our sake, but for his own sake, His OWN glory, so that we don’t pollute His Name (Is 48:11). GOD ALONE SAVES: If I separate the Grace of God from Who God is, then I disregard the one (Holy Spirit) and have two – one of which cannot save because he is A CREATURE and a creature who is not perfect and sinless can in no way save. If one believes that Jesus is not God, then how can He have a Savior? That’s my argument for the Trinity. Grace = Jesus is God. Every man deserves to go straight to hell because we all sin. We all deserve justice and the punishment for sin is death. God chose some in the world as a gift for Jesus. They get mercy. The rest get justice. But NO ONE gets injustice. SO, WITHOUT JESUS, WHO IS GOD, THERE WOULD BE NO GRACE. ONLY JUSTICE. Jesus is God, Jessi Saves some as a gift for Jesus??? I though we were saved as a testimony to the true God, to the truth about Him, and to glorify Him. As far as a gift for Jesus... 1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. It is a gift to the Father.
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Post by Faulty on Jun 24, 2006 10:19:23 GMT -5
RE Jessi wrote: Saved by Grace and Jesus is God are the same thing, no? NOT! IMO, one would have to make a HUGE LEAP to conclude that the two are the same thing. Could you share with us where you are coming from, Jessi, on this statement? You sure lost me! Thanx CK Absolutely, Cherie. Perhaps I need to make what I say more clear from the outset. Sorry. Here goes: Grace = God’s goodness toward those who deserve only punishment. Trinity = God is three persons in one Godhead: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. THE BIBLE TEACHES THAT EACH PERSON IS FULLY GOD. If one does not believe that Jesus is God at some basic level, how does he achieve true saving faith? ELECTION - God the Father, in His Grace and Mercy, chose some out of the world as a gift to God the Son (Jn 17:2,6,9) from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), who purchased them with His own blood (Acts 20:28). GOD ELECTS: It is God the Father who ordains us to eternal life (Acts 13:48) and God the Father who draws His elect to Christ (Jn 6:44). REGENERATION - God the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts to believe (Jn 3:5-8, 14:26) and He opens our hearts to the Word as it is preached to us. GOD TEACHES: God the Holy Spirit teaches us (Is 48:17, Job 27:11, 36:22, I Cor 2:13). SALVATION: God is the only savior (Is 43:11, 44:6-7) and He will not give his glory to another (Is 42:8). He saves us, not for our sake, but for his own sake, His OWN glory, so that we don’t pollute His Name (Is 48:11). GOD ALONE SAVES: If I separate the Grace of God from Who God is, then I disregard the one (Holy Spirit) and have two – one of which cannot save because he is A CREATURE and a creature who is not perfect and sinless can in no way save. If one believes that Jesus is not God, then how can He have a Savior? That’s my argument for the Trinity. Grace = Jesus is God. Every man deserves to go straight to hell because we all sin. We all deserve justice and the punishment for sin is death. God chose some in the world as a gift for Jesus. They get mercy. The rest get justice. But NO ONE gets injustice. SO, WITHOUT JESUS, WHO IS GOD, THERE WOULD BE NO GRACE. ONLY JUSTICE. Jesus is God, Jessi The trouble with defining the trinity as 3 persons, is by grammatical correctness, 3 persons cannot be one person, and if you think they can, then either you do not understand the concept of ''person'' or you are making up excuses for a faulty worded doctrine.
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Post by ilylo on Jun 24, 2006 10:22:19 GMT -5
The trouble with defining the trinity as 3 persons, is by grammatical correctness, 3 persons cannot be one person Sorry, but I'm not finding where someone said that 3 persons can be one person. Where is it?
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