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Post by Lee on Nov 27, 2018 19:47:17 GMT -5
If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell Carl Sandburg Tags: humor Or you can be a Christian and realize you were born to suffer as sure as you were born. It's just in this life though. In our next life, our sufferings will comprise a sort of capital by which a better and perhaps a perfect reality will be founded.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 27, 2018 20:15:33 GMT -5
If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell Carl Sandburg Tags: humor Or you can be a Christian and realize you were born to suffer as sure as you were born. It's just in this life though. In our next life, our sufferings will comprise a sort of capital by which a better and perhaps a perfect reality will be founded. The belief of "being born to suffer" is a great analgesic used by Christians to relieve any pain that they face. After all they can't deny that all the rest of mankind suffers the same.
How else could Christians be able reconcile themselves for their own suffering?
The reward, -the "carrot" at the end of the stick, -a life free of pain forever, -helps them to continue to believe something like that.
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Post by Lee on Nov 27, 2018 23:12:17 GMT -5
So we agree life means suffering for most people. In different ways, for even the materially well off, perhaps all. Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning. Somehow the wisdom gained through suffering will be imported into the world to come. Why would you object to that? Why would you mock people who declared that. Is it not so that people suffer? Is it only because they believe they must suffer that they do, like a self fulfilling prophesy? Is it merely a political issue to be resolved? Do we need to declare war on rich people, would that absolve the world of suffering?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 28, 2018 1:41:31 GMT -5
So we agree life means suffering for most people. In different ways, for even the materially well off, perhaps all. Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning. Somehow the wisdom gained through suffering will be imported into the world to come. Why would you object to that? Why would you mock people who declared that. Is it not so that people suffer? Is it only because they believe they must suffer that they do, like a self fulfilling prophesy? Is it merely a political issue to be resolved? Do we need to declare war on rich people, would that absolve the world of suffering? Yes, -we agree that most people suffer and they suffer without any discrimination as of gender or age, their wealth or religion or the lack there of.
A small baby can be be born to an enormously wealthy family but with a condition that causes it to suffer and die within a few days, while it's grandmother lived to be 100 years old
You say that "Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning." What meaning? Or better yet, WHY?
Does "suffering in this world have meaning" for people who aren't Christians or is that only for Christians?
What is the "wisdom gained through suffering ?" -is that only for Christians or others as well?
Lee, can you show where I have "mocked people?" or where as I "objected" to people "believing" what they want to as long as they aren't hurting others?
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Post by magpie1 on Nov 29, 2018 17:02:12 GMT -5
G'day bluejay,I think it is fantastic,should be a bit more humour in our lives,laughing is great therapy,providing it is not blasphemy.. Here is for Wally and all the stiff upper lopped. "A serious subject"" for all to hear."NO JOKE"" Magpie vimeo.com/133833364 .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLDsuvFsn7Q ... I entered it twice in case one misses,a habit I have M
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2018 17:43:13 GMT -5
G'day bluejay,I think it is fantastic,should be a bit more humour in our lives,laughing is great therapy,providing it is not blasphemy.. Here is for Wally and all the stiff upper lopped. "A serious subject"" for all to hear."NO JOKE"" Magpie vimeo.com/133833364 .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLDsuvFsn7Q ... I entered it twice in case one misses,a habit I have M your links rarely work i don't bother with them anymore...love wally
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Post by xna on Nov 29, 2018 17:58:12 GMT -5
G'day bluejay,I think it is fantastic,should be a bit more humour in our lives,laughing is great therapy,providing it is not blasphemy.. Here is for Wally and all the stiff upper lopped. "A serious subject"" for all to hear."NO JOKE"" Magpie vimeo.com/133833364 .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLDsuvFsn7Q ... I entered it twice in case one misses,a habit I have M your links rarely work i don't bother with them anymore...love wally The link worked for me
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 29, 2018 21:33:24 GMT -5
G'day bluejay,I think it is fantastic,should be a bit more humour in our lives,laughing is great therapy,providing it is not blasphemy.. Here is for Wally and all the stiff upper lopped. "A serious subject"" for all to hear."NO JOKE"" Magpie vimeo.com/133833364 .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLDsuvFsn7Q ... I entered it twice in case one misses,a habit I have M your links rarely work i don't bother with them anymore...love wally They never work for me either.
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Post by Lee on Nov 30, 2018 23:24:25 GMT -5
So we agree life means suffering for most people. In different ways, for even the materially well off, perhaps all. Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning. Somehow the wisdom gained through suffering will be imported into the world to come. Why would you object to that? Why would you mock people who declared that. Is it not so that people suffer? Is it only because they believe they must suffer that they do, like a self fulfilling prophesy? Is it merely a political issue to be resolved? Do we need to declare war on rich people, would that absolve the world of suffering? Yes, -we agree that most people suffer and they suffer without any discrimination as of gender or age, their wealth or religion or the lack there of.
A small baby can be be born to an enormously wealthy family but with a condition that causes it to suffer and die within a few days, while it's grandmother lived to be 100 years old
You say that "Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning." What meaning? Or better yet, WHY?
Does "suffering in this world have meaning" for people who aren't Christians or is that only for Christians?
What is the "wisdom gained through suffering ?" -is that only for Christians or others as well?
Lee, can you show where I have "mocked people?" or where as I "objected" to people "believing" what they want to as long as they aren't hurting others?
Your mocking consists of interpreting Christian truth as a private, subjective truth and therefore no truth. For all truths that are subjective must therefore be relative, and not absolutely referential to the truth. Do you know for a fact Christian truth is only subjective? Do you know there's no resurrection? Do you know persons who's lives have been entirely given to suffering and failure are in vain? By a hedonistic ethos, what ought we to judge our lives by? Certainly not suffering... Do you know there's no continuity between our souls and any life to come, or any life that may be existing concomitantly? Do you know man has no soul, that consciousness is merely a perturbation of physicality? That while it appears to be subject to the appearance of order, we must deny any transcendent assumption of an order over it, or intrinsic to it?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2018 2:30:13 GMT -5
Yes, -we agree that most people suffer and they suffer without any discrimination as of gender or age, their wealth or religion or the lack there of.
A small baby can be be born to an enormously wealthy family but with a condition that causes it to suffer and die within a few days, while it's grandmother lived to be 100 years old
You say that "Christianity says suffering in this world has meaning." What meaning? Or better yet, WHY?
Does "suffering in this world have meaning" for people who aren't Christians or is that only for Christians?
What is the "wisdom gained through suffering ?" -is that only for Christians or others as well?
Lee, can you show where I have "mocked people?" or where as I "objected" to people "believing" what they want to as long as they aren't hurting others? Your mocking consists of interpreting Christian truth as a private, subjective truth and therefore no truth. For all truths that are subjective must therefore be relative, and not absolutely referential to the truth. Do you know for a fact Christian truth is only subjective? Do you know there's no resurrection? Do you know persons who's lives have been entirely given to suffering and failure are in vain? By a hedonistic ethos, what ought we to judge our lives by? Certainly not suffering... Do you know there's no continuity between our souls and any life to come, or any life that may be existing concomitantly? Do you know man has no soul, that consciousness is merely a perturbation of physicality? That while it appears to be subject to the appearance of order, we must deny any transcendent assumption of an order over it, or intrinsic to it? First of all, Lee, you need to check the definition of "mocking!" mocking behaviour involves laughing at someone or something in an unkind way: -a mocking voice -derisive
You will have to show where any of my posts "mocked" Christianity .
I have never "interpreted Christian truth as a private, subjective truth and therefore no truth." Those are NOT my words but yours.
Yes, Christianity IS subjective truth, -but so are many others.
Maybe you need to revisit the meaning of subjective truth and objective truth?
As for your questions, they can be difficult to answer since you do not seem to know the difference.
Do you know for a fact Christian truth is only subjective? Yes, because that is only a subjective "truth" believed but can't be proved by any objective truth. Do you know there's no resurrection? Yes, same as above
Do you know persons who's lives have been entirely given to suffering and failure are in vain? Unknown by any kind of subjective OR objective truth
By a hedonistic ethos, what ought we to judge our lives by? Certainly not suffering... Why would you judge your or anyone elses life by "hedonistic ethos ?"
Do you know there's no continuity between our souls and any life to come, or any life that may be existing concomitantly? That is only subjective and there is no evidence that it might be true.
Do you know man has no soul, that consciousness is merely a perturbation of physicality? Again it is only subjective truth with no evidence so I have no way of determining whether it is true or not.
That while it appears to be subject to the appearance of order, we must deny any transcendent assumption of an order over it, or intrinsic to it?
I am not sure what you mean by this, Explain?
difference between subjective truth and objective truth
What is the difference between subjective truth and objective truth? Subjective truth is not confirmed by science & depends on one’s opinion or belief & may be true or false, whereas objective truth is confirmed by science & universally accepted. Whether it is subjective or objective, the truth is only relative & “Realistic”, based on time, place & circumstances & “Absolute Truth” is beyond the reach of humanity, as it is shrouded in mystery.
Objectivity:-
This falls under the scientific analysis to identify an object, measure, quantify or qualify for various parameters & confirm the result, which is a reality to the given circumstances, place & time. It allows the facts to speak for themselves. Objective information is meant to be completely unbiased & can be described without any ambiguity. This is accepted without any controversy & confrontation & has concurrence with others, if the method is adapted in testing & analyzing & accepted by all. This may also involve people to work together & share knowledge & the process. It is not easy to argue or disapprove, if all norms are strictly followed.
Even this objectivity can change with different, time, place & circumstances, but any change that takes place in different situation, still has the concurrence with others at that point of reference. What is assumed as truth is only a “Reality” for given situation & “Absolute Truth” is not reachable.
Subjectivity:-
It falls under one’s personal impressions, feelings, views or opinions, rather than external facts. It cannot be subjected to scientific analysis or observation & there is no way to confirm affirmatively or refer to any established norms, in which case controversy is bound to exist. The truth one believes is dependent on one’s knowledge, understanding & experience. It may or may not be true & chances for hurting or disapproving other’s feelings are more & things may remain controversial. It can consist statement of judgment, assumption, belief, suspicion or rumor.
Whether objective or subjective, absolute “Truth” is beyond the reach of humanity & whatever we assume as truth is relative & subject to time place & circumstances & should be identified as “Realistic Truth”,as stated above for given conditions.
Some examples to indicate objectivity & Subjectivity:-
Objectivity:-
1.Human Body Temperature-Normal-97.7*F-99.5*F/ Average 98.6*F
2. Temperature of “Boiling Water” at Mount Everest-70*C/Dead Sea Level-101*C
3. Planets revolve round the Sun
4. Man has 2 Eyes, 2 Hands, 2 Ears, 2 Legs etc
Subjectivity:-
1. Soul is fundamental basis for all species for survival
2. Mind controls our actions
3. Rebirth after death is imminent
4. Soul does not die but the body dies.
CONCLUSIONS:-
Objectivity is based on science & Subjectivity is based on philosophical or personal opinion, but both moves towards “Realistic Truth”, subject to time, place & circumstances.
B.V. Varadarajan B.V. Varadarajan, former Retired After Serving in Various Organizations at CIL,NAL(CSIR),IDEMI(Ind Min),UE(Ltd),SIMCO(Ltd) in...
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Post by Lee on Dec 2, 2018 21:11:10 GMT -5
While subjective and objective observation are obvious enough occurrences, IMO it is our sharing with the holy spirit that we're having a discussion of objectivity or truth in the first place.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 2, 2018 21:58:14 GMT -5
While subjective and objective observation are obvious enough occurrences, IMO it is our sharing with the holy spirit that we're having a discussion of objectivity or truth in the first place. eh....NO! !
The reason that we are having this discussion is because our brains developed to the point that we think about such abstract ideas.
There was a time within the our evolution when we weren't able to think in those terms.
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Post by Lee on Dec 2, 2018 22:39:46 GMT -5
How do you know animals don't have a sharing with the holy spirit? Your entire world view is based upon assumptions.
...You just want to be the top dog. As long as you're the top dog you're happy with that. Never mind the fact that the top dog has a problem, call it sin. Quite a history of sin, matter of fact.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 9:48:25 GMT -5
nothing like a smarta$$ to get the day rolling.... I hadn't expected to be called a "smarta$$" wally. I thought it was a well written piece of humor. Many people question things written in the OT. I mingle with non-believers on a daily basis, and I've had questions like that asked of me. I've found that humor at times can be a healthy way to look at things. Hopefully others on this board appreciate the irony of this article. I think Wally's reaction was with, although I'm not sure exactly what the appropriate word is.. but perhaps... with an in kind, appreciative smile?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 16:52:05 GMT -5
How do you know animals don't have a sharing with the holy spirit? Your entire world view is based upon assumptions. ...You just want to be the top dog. As long as you're the top dog you're happy with that. Never mind the fact that the top dog has a problem, call it sin. Quite a history of sin, matter of fact. We definitely have the most sophisticated ways to deal with non-reciprocity, and the willingness to build extremely elaborate systems to take advantage of imbalance, while not appearing to do so. We are the ultimate tricksters, but that quality isn't unique to us. We're just the best animals at it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2018 18:30:03 GMT -5
How do you know animals don't have a sharing with the holy spirit? Your entire world view is based upon assumptions. ...You just want to be the top dog. As long as you're the top dog you're happy with that. Never mind the fact that the top dog has a problem, call it sin. Quite a history of sin, matter of fact. Do you believe in the evolution of life, Lee?
It is only those who DON'T want to believe in the evolution of man, -but rather believe that man is the 'CREATION' of a god as the ultimate, -as you call it, -"top dog."
You also seem to believe that in spite of mankind being "created" by a supposed perfect god, -that perfect god didn't or couldn't create a "perfect" man, but rather a flawed being who makes errors which you call "sins." Yet, you claim that MY "entire world view is based upon assumptions?"
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Post by Lee on Dec 3, 2018 20:14:52 GMT -5
It is.
I think God is being revealed as being more perfect in creating us imperfect.
Man is the top dog, as far as we're aware of things. Nathan might tell us of superior species. Would that be superiorly wicked, or superiorly good?
At any rate, I think it's just a matter of time before we duscover life is a common denominator of the universe.
There's much that rides your query, "Do you believe in the evolution of life?"
I take it you believe this process is occurring apart from any god, order, or higher power.
I couldn't disagree more.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 3, 2018 21:07:08 GMT -5
It is. I think God is being revealed as being more perfect in creating us imperfect.Man is the top dog, as far as we're aware of things. Nathan might tell us of superior species. Would that be superiorly wicked, or superiorly good? At any rate, I think it's just a matter of time before we duscover life is a common denominator of the universe. There's much that rides your query, "Do you believe in the evolution of life?" I take it you believe this process is occurring apart from any god, order, or higher power. I couldn't disagree more. ?? "God is being revealed as being more perfect in creating us imperfect." ??
This isn't making any sense to me. Could you explain?
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Post by Lee on Dec 3, 2018 21:18:51 GMT -5
If he created us perfect we'd have no conception of right and wrong. Creating us imperfect, the landscape of right and wrong is being organically inculcated into our psyches, our consciousness, and our being.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 4, 2018 4:41:18 GMT -5
If he created us perfect we'd have no conception of right and wrong. Creating us imperfect, the landscape of right and wrong is being organically inculcated into our psyches, our consciousness, and our being. Oh my!
By this time after all the apologetics that I have heard, I don't know why I should be surprised but I still am!
All the trouble that people will go to make something to sound logical when a much less complicated reason is more rational!
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Post by Lee on Dec 4, 2018 10:41:28 GMT -5
That we, mankind, come from nothing, nothing at all?
The band Air Supply made bank out of a dated pop song, 'making love out of nothing at all'.
I still don't know what the song meant.
What's your less complicated reason?
Anything but God.. ABG?
Sounds logical to me.
Not
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2018 1:43:38 GMT -5
That we, mankind, come from nothing, nothing at all? The band Air Supply made bank out of a dated pop song, 'making love out of nothing at all'.I still don't know what the song meant. What's your less complicated reason? Anything but God.. ABG? Sounds logical to me. The post that I was answering was your idea of why "god" supposedly created us "imperfect" rather than "perfect"
You claimed that if he had created us PERFECT "we'd have no conception of right and wrong."
I think that people who want believe in a "god" must have to spend a lot of time having to twist what they believe into crazy knots in order to maintain their belief!
I see it all the time in the apologetics that people have to think up in order to believe in the unbelievable.
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Post by Lee on Dec 5, 2018 8:20:42 GMT -5
Well we are imperfect. Let's all hold hands and habilitate. Suffering souls behoove us.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2018 12:09:24 GMT -5
In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative: Dear Dr. Laura: <SNIP> I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your adoring fan. James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian) I believe credit should be given to J. Kent Ashcraft.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2018 12:22:01 GMT -5
Your mocking consists of interpreting Christian truth as a private, subjective truth and therefore no truth. For all truths that are subjective must therefore be relative, and not absolutely referential to the truth. Perhaps because it is not an objective truth. Can you provide any proof that would be universally true? Personaly I am waiting for someone to present veritable data to back what you claim. Since you are making the claim that it is not a subject truth simply offer proof.
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Post by Lee on Dec 5, 2018 13:43:17 GMT -5
I could say Christians are the evidence of Christ. Or I could say various world developments are proof of Christ. This does not constitute proof to you. You want materialistic proof, and by that, you mean a brick on an exam table, or some other elementary construction. Your filter's too narrow, too simplistic. But then, that's the whole point of untrue science and religion. Determine a filter, and exclude other points of inquiry and input.
Now you will respond this is what Christians do.
Look, at least be creative with your response. Don't be a bore.
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Post by rational on Dec 5, 2018 18:38:45 GMT -5
I could say Christians are the evidence of Christ. Or I could say various world developments are proof of Christ. This does not constitute proof to you. You want materialistic proof, and by that, you mean a brick on an exam table, or some other elementary construction. Your filter's too narrow, too simplistic. But then, that's the whole point of untrue science and religion. Determine a filter, and exclude other points of inquiry and input. Now you will respond this is what Christians do. Look, at least be creative with your response. Don't be a bore. Along the same line Lutherans are evidence of Martin Luther. Mouseketeers are evidence of Mickey Mouse. Judenklub is evidence of young Jews who like football but reject the christian messiah. And to go a step further, Buddhists are evidence that the claimed messiah did not meet the crucial goal of getting all people to believe in one god. All of the things you mention are evidence that there was at least the idea of christ promulgated by believers who used promises of not proven eternal life, the fear of eternal damnation, as well as physical force to convert and hold others. Not unlike Jim Jones. And you are right - it is at best subjective evidence. Again, you have not provided any examples. Just reiterated your beliefs which you know will not stand up ti independent verification, hence your suggestion that the 'filter' be made wider to allow unverified/unverifiable ideas to be accepted as objective facts. And you know what some christians do - distort evidence to conform to myths and pretend they are objective facts.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 5, 2018 20:35:05 GMT -5
Well we are imperfect. Let's all hold hands and habilitate. Suffering souls behoove us. Maybe the first place, Lee, we should to define the characteristics of what we consider "imperfect" in we humans.
Then also define what we would consider "perfection" in a god.
We really need to do that before we talk about the subject.
PS: Also what constitutes a "Suffering soul."
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