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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2020 14:44:58 GMT -5
The bible has no intrinsic meaning. It only has whatever meaning you and others ascribe to it. In that respect it is no different to any other work of literature or work of art. Meaning is like value. It is subjective. An expensive piece of Italian furniture may be of great value to a collector of expensive Italian furniture but to a blind man, a Yanomami Indian or a dog it has no value whatsoever. To them an expensive Natuzzi sofa is just something to sit on. It has no value in itself. And so it is with the bible. For many people the bible is just a book and a book that is not worth reading. While for many others it has meaning. I do not know what deeper meaning, say, the book of Leviticus has for you but for me much of it is grossly offensive and has no meaning whatsoever. But that doesn’t mean it does not have some deeper ot spiritual meaning for you. And so it is with God. For one person God exists while for another he doesn’t. For one person God frowns upon women cutting their hair while for another he doesn’t. For one person God hates homosexuality while for another he supports same sex marriage. For one person Jesus is God while for another he is merely the son of God. God, like meaning and value, is subjective. While you may have experienced God in your life and believe that he is there, the God that you have experienced in your life and which you believe is there is a completely different God than, say, the God a Muslim or a Jew has experienced in their life and who they also believe is there. Which raises the question of whether all these different Gods are really there as their believers believe them to be ... or are they merely products of our own individual experience? When I was a 2x2 I too experienced God in my life and believed that this God was really there. And what a strange God he was too. He spent his entire time watching what people got up to in their bedrooms and frowning upon people having things in their home such as radios, televisions, video recorders, gramophone players, computers and CCTV. And He would only save your soul from an eternity in hell if you joined the 2x2s. While the existence of this God was very real to me it is perfectly obvious now that he did not exist in reality. Like DMG I don’t know anything about your life but what I do know is that there is no evidence to suggest that the God which you have experienced in your life and who you claim to know is there, is any more real than mine was. We all experience life internally and our experiences of life are all internal. And so it is with our experiences of God. When we hear God speaking it is never audibly just as when we see God it is never visually. Which is why we cannot capture God on camera. And it’s why when people converse with God through prayer you will only ever hear one of them talking. And why when people walk with God you will only ever see one person walking. God is experienced through our thoughts and feelings and through our personal interpretations of life’s events. Thoughts and feelings and personal interpretations that are always internal. Our entire engagement with God is internal because God himself is internal. Like the kingdom of heaven he is within you. He does not exist outside of you. He does not exist in reality. To experience God we must first believe in him. And when we quit believing he ceases to exist. Which is why the non believer cannot experience God nor see any evidence of him. Matt10 The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. I expect that you were, as was I, given these arguments of proof by someone else before you ever needed to use them yourself.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2020 14:46:38 GMT -5
Very insightfully explained -- something a "person of faith" cannot dispute, and not offensive to the honest person of faith. For those who want to dispute this, they will not accept it --- without turning on another light, and that takes a courage many don't have. why bother matt10 is determined to shake his fist at a God he doesn't even believe in... Why should you care? He's not shaking his fist at you.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 1, 2020 15:12:06 GMT -5
The bible has no intrinsic meaning. It only has whatever meaning you and others ascribe to it. In that respect it is no different to any other work of literature or work of art. Meaning is like value. It is subjective. An expensive piece of Italian furniture may be of great value to a collector of expensive Italian furniture but to a blind man, a Yanomami Indian or a dog it has no value whatsoever. To them an expensive Natuzzi sofa is just something to sit on. It has no value in itself. And so it is with the bible. For many people the bible is just a book and a book that is not worth reading. While for many others it has meaning. I do not know what deeper meaning, say, the book of Leviticus has for you but for me much of it is grossly offensive and has no meaning whatsoever. But that doesn’t mean it does not have some deeper ot spiritual meaning for you. And so it is with God. For one person God exists while for another he doesn’t. For one person God frowns upon women cutting their hair while for another he doesn’t. For one person God hates homosexuality while for another he supports same sex marriage. For one person Jesus is God while for another he is merely the son of God. God, like meaning and value, is subjective. While you may have experienced God in your life and believe that he is there, the God that you have experienced in your life and which you believe is there is a completely different God than, say, the God a Muslim or a Jew has experienced in their life and who they also believe is there. Which raises the question of whether all these different Gods are really there as their believers believe them to be ... or are they merely products of our own individual experience? When I was a 2x2 I too experienced God in my life and believed that this God was really there. And what a strange God he was too. He spent his entire time watching what people got up to in their bedrooms and frowning upon people having things in their home such as radios, televisions, video recorders, gramophone players, computers and CCTV. And He would only save your soul from an eternity in hell if you joined the 2x2s. While the existence of this God was very real to me it is perfectly obvious now that he did not exist in reality. Like DMG I don’t know anything about your life but what I do know is that there is no evidence to suggest that the God which you have experienced in your life and who you claim to know is there, is any more real than mine was. We all experience life internally and our experiences of life are all internal. And so it is with our experiences of God. When we hear God speaking it is never audibly just as when we see God it is never visually. Which is why we cannot capture God on camera. And it’s why when people converse with God through prayer you will only ever hear one of them talking. And why when people walk with God you will only ever see one person walking. God is experienced through our thoughts and feelings and through our personal interpretations of life’s events. Thoughts and feelings and personal interpretations that are always internal. Our entire engagement with God is internal because God himself is internal. Like the kingdom of heaven he is within you. He does not exist outside of you. He does not exist in reality. To experience God we must first believe in him. And when we quit believing he ceases to exist. Which is why the non believer cannot experience God nor see any evidence of him. Matt10 The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. Do you find the other option to creation too scary to even contemplate?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 15:29:08 GMT -5
why bother matt10 is determined to shake his fist at a God he doesn't even believe in... Why should you care? He's not shaking his fist at you. you need to learn to pick your battles...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2020 16:10:16 GMT -5
Why should you care? He's not shaking his fist at you. you need to learn to pick your battles... So you pick on non-Christians.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 1, 2020 16:12:05 GMT -5
Why should you care? He's not shaking his fist at you. you need to learn to pick your battles... Why do you see it as a battle?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 18:22:29 GMT -5
you need to learn to pick your battles... So you pick on non-Christians. like you don't pick on believers?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2020 20:00:07 GMT -5
So you pick on non-Christians. like you don't pick on believers? Not specifically. More specifically, stupid ones, and the like.
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Post by joanna on Aug 1, 2020 20:45:58 GMT -5
@matt10
Thank you.
I value honesty. And I know that when still attending meetings, I really tried to connect with god. The people who preached that he was real were those I trusted and believed. So when I prayed and there was silence, I came to the realisation that prayer is simply another word for thinking.
The words we process during what is defined as 'prayer' remain within our own being. They are not magically conveyed to another individual or dimension. I also realised that god only exists inside the person's mind. That is why there are so many variations of beliefs and disagreements between people who believe in the same gods.
If only people could be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 21:06:12 GMT -5
like you don't pick on believers? Not specifically. More specifically, stupid ones, and the like. oh how noble of you...NOT....
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Post by Dan on Aug 2, 2020 0:29:56 GMT -5
Not necessarily.. God exist whether we believe in Him or not.
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us.
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of thin air or that the materials sprung from nothing.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 2, 2020 0:33:00 GMT -5
Not necessarily.. God exist whether we believe in Him or not.
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us.
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of nothing.
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans?
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Post by nathan on Aug 2, 2020 0:42:24 GMT -5
Not necessarily.. God exist whether we believe in Him or not.
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of nothing.
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans? Covid-19 created by Evil men/children of Satan and NOT by God. Satan and his EVIL children purpose are to depopulation and kill many as possible so, they have no chance in hearing the gospel and REPENT of their sins. Satan KNOWS his time is short, he wants to take many/millions lives ASAP. He is reap the harvest of UNBELIEVERS souls around the now... You might be NEXT, Curly.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 2, 2020 0:43:36 GMT -5
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of thin air or that the materials sprung from nothing.
Are you a bit confused?
Scientific explanations are not philosophy.
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Post by Dan on Aug 2, 2020 0:49:23 GMT -5
Not necessarily.. God exist whether we believe in Him or not.
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of nothing.
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans? Sin brought death and suffering into the world, all living things die, just as all living things reproduce. Nature is cruel, but there is a harmonious consistency to it.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 2, 2020 1:09:34 GMT -5
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans? Covid-19 created by Evil men/children of Satan and NOT by God. Satan and his EVIL children purpose are to depopulation and kill many as possible so, they have no chance in hearing the gospel and REPENT of their sins. Satan KNOWS his time is short, he wants to take many/millions lives ASAP. He is reap the harvest of UNBELIEVERS souls around the now... You might be NEXT, Curly.
You need help for your delusions.
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Post by Dan on Aug 2, 2020 1:14:47 GMT -5
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of thin air or that the materials sprung from nothing.
Are you a bit confused?
Scientific explanations are not philosophy.
When it comes to how everything came into being, science is as speculative and philosophical as Intelligent Design. Imo, spiritual explanations rely less on philosophy than science does when it comes to fundamental questions about existence. You can't philosophize more than when you imagine that life magically sprung from rocks and you evolved from bacterium. That belief requires more faith to accept than anything in the bible.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 2, 2020 1:17:28 GMT -5
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans? Covid-19 created by Evil men/children of Satan and NOT by God. Satan and his EVIL children purpose are to depopulation and kill many as possible so, they have no chance in hearing the gospel and REPENT of their sins. Satan KNOWS his time is short, he wants to take many/millions lives ASAP. He is reap the harvest of UNBELIEVERS souls around the now... You might be NEXT, Curly.
Stop that. You're scaring the believers.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 2, 2020 1:33:35 GMT -5
When it comes to how everything came into being, science is as speculative and philosophical as Intelligent Design. Science isn't speculative and philosophical. Intelligent design is indeed speculative, and probably quasi-philosophical Do you know what philosophy is? What is a spiritual explanation? That doesn't sound like philosophy. It sounds like .... an amateur thinker. Kind of like the great faith that Nathan has?
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 2, 2020 2:37:13 GMT -5
Are you a bit confused?
Scientific explanations are not philosophy. When it comes to how everything came into being, science is as speculative and philosophical as Intelligent Design. Imo, spiritual explanations rely less on philosophy than science does when it comes to fundamental questions about existence. You can't philosophize more than when you imagine that life magically sprung from rocks and you evolved from bacterium. That belief requires more faith to accept than anything in the bible.
You may be confused as to the definition of philosophy and science..
They are two different studies.
They approach the study of knowledge from different directions.
I should know as my daughter has her degree in philosophy, -not science.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 2, 2020 10:28:53 GMT -5
Not necessarily.. God exist whether we believe in Him or not.
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us.
True, the evidence of an unseen God is creation itself, the complexity and harmonious nature of what we see in existence could not have all come together by happenstance. Scientific explanations (philosophy) are no substitute for God. If I see a house, I presume a carpenter was behind it, and not that it mysteriously erected itself out of thin air or that the materials sprung from nothing.
My uncle used to say that to us when we were young, he used to say that a table didn't just appear, but there was a skilled person who put their hand to making and shaping it, and you don't know the person who's done it, but you know it's been made and that there is a purpose for it. And this is like God and creation. There has to be a greater mind behind it all, we can't have appeared from nowhere everything is too complex for it to have just appeared.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 2, 2020 10:33:19 GMT -5
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. Do you find the other option to creation too scary to even contemplate? There is no other option, there is only one option, the living God. We can't just appear from nothing!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 2, 2020 10:37:02 GMT -5
The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. I expect that you were, as was I, given these arguments of proof by someone else before you ever needed to use them yourself. The proof I've had are things I've seen for myself, not what others have told me.
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Post by ForeverFree on Aug 2, 2020 11:27:10 GMT -5
If creation is an example of harmony can you tell TMB how something such as COVID 19 is in harmony with humans? Covid-19 created by Evil men/children of Satan and NOT by God. Satan and his EVIL children purpose are to depopulation and kill many as possible so, they have no chance in hearing the gospel and REPENT of their sins. Satan KNOWS his time is short, he wants to take many/millions lives ASAP. He is reap the harvest of UNBELIEVERS souls around the now... You might be NEXT, Curly.
You sound like one of those crazy people standing on a street corner. Oh, I guess in your case it's a gas station.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 2, 2020 13:07:07 GMT -5
Do you find the other option to creation too scary to even contemplate? There is no other option, there is only one option, the living God. We can't just appear from nothing! Tell me MaryH, have you ever had the flu and do you get the flu jab every year?
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Post by maryhig on Aug 2, 2020 13:49:22 GMT -5
There is no other option, there is only one option, the living God. We can't just appear from nothing! Tell me MaryH, have you ever had the flu and do you get the flu jab every year? I don't think I've had the flu, and no I don't have the flu jab. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2020 13:53:09 GMT -5
The bible has no intrinsic meaning. It only has whatever meaning you and others ascribe to it. In that respect it is no different to any other work of literature or work of art. Meaning is like value. It is subjective. An expensive piece of Italian furniture may be of great value to a collector of expensive Italian furniture but to a blind man, a Yanomami Indian or a dog it has no value whatsoever. To them an expensive Natuzzi sofa is just something to sit on. It has no value in itself. And so it is with the bible. For many people the bible is just a book and a book that is not worth reading. While for many others it has meaning. I do not know what deeper meaning, say, the book of Leviticus has for you but for me much of it is grossly offensive and has no meaning whatsoever. But that doesn’t mean it does not have some deeper ot spiritual meaning for you. And so it is with God. For one person God exists while for another he doesn’t. For one person God frowns upon women cutting their hair while for another he doesn’t. For one person God hates homosexuality while for another he supports same sex marriage. For one person Jesus is God while for another he is merely the son of God. God, like meaning and value, is subjective. While you may have experienced God in your life and believe that he is there, the God that you have experienced in your life and which you believe is there is a completely different God than, say, the God a Muslim or a Jew has experienced in their life and who they also believe is there. Which raises the question of whether all these different Gods are really there as their believers believe them to be ... or are they merely products of our own individual experience? When I was a 2x2 I too experienced God in my life and believed that this God was really there. And what a strange God he was too. He spent his entire time watching what people got up to in their bedrooms and frowning upon people having things in their home such as radios, televisions, video recorders, gramophone players, computers and CCTV. And He would only save your soul from an eternity in hell if you joined the 2x2s. While the existence of this God was very real to me it is perfectly obvious now that he did not exist in reality. Like DMG I don’t know anything about your life but what I do know is that there is no evidence to suggest that the God which you have experienced in your life and who you claim to know is there, is any more real than mine was. We all experience life internally and our experiences of life are all internal. And so it is with our experiences of God. When we hear God speaking it is never audibly just as when we see God it is never visually. Which is why we cannot capture God on camera. And it’s why when people converse with God through prayer you will only ever hear one of them talking. And why when people walk with God you will only ever see one person walking. God is experienced through our thoughts and feelings and through our personal interpretations of life’s events. Thoughts and feelings and personal interpretations that are always internal. Our entire engagement with God is internal because God himself is internal. Like the kingdom of heaven he is within you. He does not exist outside of you. He does not exist in reality. To experience God we must first believe in him. And when we quit believing he ceases to exist. Which is why the non believer cannot experience God nor see any evidence of him. Matt10 The evidence of God is all around us, creation and life itself shows us there has to be a greater mind behind it all. And God looks at the heart, only he knows the depths of a person's heart and only he can judge us. There may be evidence of God all around us but it is not evidence of the Christian God. While I fully accept your belief in your God and the fact the your God is very real to you, there is no evidence that the Christian God exists in reality. In the absence of evidence to the contrary the only reasonable conclusion one can come to is that your God only exists within you. There evidence of God that you claim is all around us is not evidence of an all knowing God. It is not evidence of a loving God or a just God or a God who can heal all ailments. It is not evidence of a God who can save your soul or can see what you get up to in the bedroom. It is not evidence of a God who cares whether you cut your hair or whether you have a television set or what sex the person is that you sleep with. It is not evidence of a God who resurrects people from the dead or who raises men up to heaven. It not evidence of a God who calls on people to sell all and go forth 2x2 to preach. It is not evidence of a God who looks on the heart and knows the depth of it. It is not evidence of your God. If there truly is a greater mind which is responsible for the creation of life and the wonder of the universe there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this greater mind is the Christian God. A greater mind is not reduced to using an ass to communicate. A greater mind does not inspire an error ridden book filled with inconsistencies. A greater mind doesn’t make such a botched job of his creation that he has to drown practically all of them and start again. A greater mind does not advocate stoning non virgins. A greater mind does not instruct fallible men to spread word of it to all the world at a time when the only land transport available to them is the donkey. A greater mind who craves being worshiped doesn’t omit to provide any credible evidence of its existence. A greater mind doesn’t get angry with the flawed things he is responsible for creating. A greater mind who is responsible for the design of human beings doesn’t design them susceptible to things such as smallpox, cancer and fatal familial insomnia. Matt10
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Post by nathan on Aug 2, 2020 13:56:23 GMT -5
Covid-19 created by Evil men/children of Satan and NOT by God. Satan and his EVIL children purpose are to depopulation and kill many as possible so, they have no chance in hearing the gospel and REPENT of their sins. Satan KNOWS his time is short, he wants to take many/millions lives ASAP. He is reap the harvest of UNBELIEVERS souls around the now... You might be NEXT, Curly.
You sound like one of those crazy people standing on a street corner. Oh, I guess in your case it's a gas station. ** I preach/teach anywhere and everywhere people want to hear as my God and Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit lead me to. TIME is SHORT and Satan KNOWS it so, he wants to kill millions with the deadly Viruses, cancer, diseases and with all kinds of illnesses. Be in time, foreverfree, Curly... Before your time and opportunity to REPENT are over/gone forever.
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