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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 1:26:09 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 2:43:27 GMT -5
Very interesting!
Psychology Today magazine was an absolute life saver for me at one time.
It had just began publishing when I was struggling to know who I was & why things were as they are.
I think that it actually helped me as much if not more than the psychiatrist that I was seeing at the time.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 7:35:00 GMT -5
1) Jetmech wrote: There surely must have been people in Biblical times who claimed to be athiests just like there are today.
PSALM 14 verse 1 says " ... The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD." I wonder then too how many woman made statements like that in Biblical times ... I know Job's wife did.
Psalm 53:1 says "... The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God ..." and more was said about it down to verse 4.
I fear GOD really I do. I know GOD is an AWESOME God, and I would never want him mad at me, so I'm going to take my chances. Someone famous once said " ... if my beliefs about GOD and heaven and all that is involved is just a dream.
it's a beautiful dream, leave me alone let me dream... Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.
Proverbs 28:26 " ... He that trusteth in his own heart ... is a FOOL; but, whoso walketh he shall be delivered ..."
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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 8:38:19 GMT -5
1) Jetmech wrote: There surely must have been people in Biblical times who claimed to be athiests just like there are today. PSALM 14 verse 1 says " ... The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD."
I wonder then too how many woman made statements like that in Biblical times ... I know Job's wife did. Psalm 53:1 says "... The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God ..." and more was said about it down to verse 4. I fear GOD really I do. I know GOD is an AWESOME God, and I would never want him mad at me, so I'm going to take my chances. Someone famous once said " ... if my beliefs about GOD and heaven and all that is involved is just a dream. it's a beautiful dream, leave me alone let me dream... Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 28:26 " ... He that trusteth in his own heart ... is a FOOL; but, whoso walketh he shall be delivered ..." 1. You would think a god who created the entire universe in a week would not resort to name calling arguments like a child, but rather provide some good evidence and reason like adults do. 2. From the above you use "the bible to prove the bible". That's like using a Superman comic book to prove Superman exists, or an argument for the Napkin Religion using the napkin.
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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 9:09:08 GMT -5
yeah right like i'm gonna believe someone born in the last century knows anything about who wrote the various books of the bible? BART D. EHRMAN PH.D., M.DIV. Bio is hereHere is a longer video on how the gospels were written.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 9:15:17 GMT -5
yeah right like i'm gonna believe someone born in the last century knows anything about who wrote the various books of the bible? BART D. EHRMAN PH.D., M.DIV. Bio is hereHere is a longer video on how the gospels were written. again by someone born in the 20th century 19 centuries after the fact....its not gonna change anything...
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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 9:18:15 GMT -5
BART D. EHRMAN PH.D., M.DIV. Bio is hereHere is a longer video on how the gospels were written. again by someone born in the 20th century 19 centuries after the fact....its not gonna change anything... Ok, then. So your best and only evidence of the bible stories are those same bible stories???
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 9:22:48 GMT -5
again by someone born in the 20th century 19 centuries after the fact....its not gonna change anything... Ok, then. So your best and only evidence of the bible stories are those same bible stories??? its where the evidence lies without regard to subjective opinions made 19 centuries later....
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 9:43:39 GMT -5
again by someone born in the 20th century 19 centuries after the fact....its not gonna change anything... Ok, then. So your best and only evidence of the bible stories are those same bible stories??? ** This guy hasn't studied the early church father writings very carefully. If he did he would have known who wrote the Gospels, the book of Acts and the book of revelation.
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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 10:26:07 GMT -5
Ok, then. So your best and only evidence of the bible stories are those same bible stories??? ** This guy hasn't studied the early church father writings very carefully. If he did he would have known who wrote the Gospels, the book of Acts and the book of revelation. You are entitled to your own opinion, but I doubt you know more about the early bible writings than Bart Ehrman. It's more likely you are experiencing the Dunning–Kruger effect. BART D. EHRMAN PH.D., M.DIV.
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He began his teaching career at Rutgers University, and joined the faculty in the Department of Religious Studies at UNC in 1988, where he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department.
Professor Ehrman completed his M.Div. and Ph.D. degrees at Princeton Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude. An expert on the New Testament and the history of Early Christianity, has written or edited thirty books, numerous scholarly articles, and dozens of book reviews. In addition to works of scholarship, Professor Ehrman has written several textbooks for undergraduate students and trade books for general audiences. Five of his books have been on the New York Times Bestseller list: Misquoting Jesus; God’s Problem; Jesus Interrupted; Forged; and How Jesus Became God. His books have been translated into twenty-seven languages.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 11:34:25 GMT -5
** This guy hasn't studied the early church father writings very carefully. If he did he would have known who wrote the Gospels, the book of Acts and the book of revelation. You are entitled to your own opinion, but I doubt you know more about the early bible writings than Bart Ehrman. It's more likely you are experiencing the Dunning–Kruger effect. BART D. EHRMAN PH.D., M.DIV.
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He began his teaching career at Rutgers University, and joined the faculty in the Department of Religious Studies at UNC in 1988, where he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department.
Professor Ehrman completed his M.Div. and Ph.D. degrees at Princeton Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude. An expert on the New Testament and the history of Early Christianity, has written or edited thirty books, numerous scholarly articles, and dozens of book reviews. In addition to works of scholarship, Professor Ehrman has written several textbooks for undergraduate students and trade books for general audiences. Five of his books have been on the New York Times Bestseller list: Misquoting Jesus; God’s Problem; Jesus Interrupted; Forged; and How Jesus Became God. His books have been translated into twenty-seven languages.
** I have a book at home of many writings of the early churches fathers from 1-4th century where they discuss over 700s topics. They tell us what they believe and taught in those days. Jesus didn't become God after his death on Calvary Cross. Jesus was the Christ and he is ETERNAL God, no beginning no end.
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jigpeter
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Hinga dinga durgan
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Post by jigpeter on Nov 1, 2018 11:39:46 GMT -5
I wonder if there has been even one person who commited his life to Jesus ...out of the millions if not billions ... has there been even one person male or female, young or old, who regretted it? I've never heard of it. Well, now you have! I professed, was baptized, and came to regret it. There are many, many more like me. It's common for us to be dismissed as insincere people who were never True Christians™. But I suspect those who dismiss us are the insincere ones, and mainly doing it to reaffirm their own beliefs -- not because they have found any good reasons for doing so, and certainly not because they are interested in an enlightening, productive discussion.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 12:11:25 GMT -5
1) Jetmech wrote: There surely must have been people in Biblical times who claimed to be athiests just like there are today. PSALM 14 verse 1 says " ... The FOOL hath said in his heart, there is no GOD."
I wonder then too how many woman made statements like that in Biblical times ... I know Job's wife did. Psalm 53:1 says "... The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God ..." and more was said about it down to verse 4. I fear GOD really I do. I know GOD is an AWESOME God, and I would never want him mad at me, so I'm going to take my chances. Someone famous once said " ... if my beliefs about GOD and heaven and all that is involved is just a dream. it's a beautiful dream, leave me alone let me dream... Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction. Proverbs 28:26 " ... He that trusteth in his own heart ... is a FOOL; but, whoso walketh he shall be delivered ..." 1. You would think a god who created the entire universe in a week would not resort to name calling arguments like a child, but rather provide some good evidence and reason like adults do. 2. From the above you use "the bible to prove the bible". That's like using a Superman comic book to prove Superman exists, or an argument for the Napkin Religion using the napkin. *** It wasn't God who called people are fools but the people of God who wrote and said it and they are correct. The unbelievers don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the wonderful things He has prepared for them to ENJOY for eternity. Christ, one of the Creators of the Universe came down from heaven to give us eternal life but many people don't believe in such a gift exists... That is NOT smart don't you think?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 14:20:20 GMT -5
When I was a devoted Christian believer, I prayed that I would be willing for whatever God had planned for me, even if it was something I might never imagine or wish for myself. I think, as Snow said, that I was open to the possibility of a "hard answer". In an odd way, the "answer to that prayer" was that my eyes opened, and I lost my faith. I have no regrets about it. IMO, the verses you quote are part of the psychological protection of the believer. No matter how compelling the stories you hear from people who believe differently from you, you don't have to think, just hurl quotes. You seem to have been well-indoctrinated to not question the Bible. It's not about trusting the Bible but trusting God.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 14:23:06 GMT -5
I don't mind about sharing my belief on the Trinity- Father, Christ and Son... They are separate beings but ONE in ONENESS of Unity and harmony. Keep on asking good questions, we don't mind... Good to have pros and cons. We can't learn new things if we don't ask questions.
Sounds good Nathan and I appreciate your patience with a morsel like me. Thanks brother. We all are but minute morsels, you know. And we enjoy your posts also!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 14:33:38 GMT -5
For just one example; consider the bible story of Thomas - one of the twelve disciples ...... John 20:25 "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."Here Thomas did not believe until AFTER he had evidence. That's what most atheist say, give me some evidence and then I may believe. Most atheist don't say I'm certain there are no gods. For myself I would say I disbelieve in the god of the bible as much as I disbelieve in Leprechauns. Leprechauns may exist but until there is some evidence all we have is Leprechaun stories. What's really strange about the Thomas story is, according to the bible he already had 1st person evidence of the prior 37 miracles of Jesus! Doesn't that make this disbelief story seem a little strange? BTW he had already seen Jesus raise someone from the dead, so coming back from the dead shouldn't have been surprising to Thomas either. Don't you think most atheists if they too had seen these 37 miracles they would become believers long before seeing number 37? Think about it, the Thomas story would make more sense if the 37 Jesus miracles never happened and Thomas never saw them, or if John 20:25 was just made up, or if both were just made up. We will never know because, there is no record of any 1st hand witnesses who saw Jesus. There is no original bible, just lots of revisions, additions and deletions. We are left with many bible contradictions (see video), and no one has ever demonstrated anything supernatural, that's why atheist's say; the time to believe is after you have good evidence, not before. Childhood religious indoctrination instills deep seated fears. Most never escape these fears, and few question their church group beliefs. Christians can see this in other religions but childhood indoctrination blinds them from their own group. Few are committed to knowing what is true about what they were taught as a child. I recommend this book to better understand the psychology of belief "T he God Virus: How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture" I'm having difficulty in understanding why there is/was "fear" for some that were raised in any church. I am not fearful actually I'm the opposite. I revel in my privilege to get to know the one true God in every facet of life. I'm not desiring in any way to be shed of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Fact is, I find the Holy Spirit a very comforting companion. I'm most always alibet, so to feel the Holy Spirit as if he's sitting on my right shoulder where he has quick access to my inner ear. There is evidence that there is God, but he won't show himself to those who have one smidgen of doubt/unbelief. I know that from experience. I've been a wee bit doubter in the past and I never got one ounce of evidence that God is for real. It took some hard please that he would help my unbelief before anything came certain.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 1, 2018 14:39:09 GMT -5
I wonder if there has been even one person who commited his life to Jesus ...out of the millions if not billions ... has there been even one person male or female, young or old, who regretted it? I've never heard of it. Well, now you have! I professed, was baptized, and came to regret it. There are many, many more like me. It's common for us to be dismissed as insincere people who were never True Christians™. But I suspect those who dismiss us are the insincere ones, and mainly doing it to reaffirm their own beliefs -- not because they have found any good reasons for doing so, and certainly not because they are interested in an enlightening, productive discussion. I suspect that your reluctance or sorry is more about the church then God t it at least it was at the beginning of your sorrow of being made a functioning member of this church.
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 14:39:47 GMT -5
For just one example; consider the bible story of Thomas - one of the twelve disciples ...... John 20:25 "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."Here Thomas did not believe until AFTER he had evidence. That's what most atheist say, give me some evidence and then I may believe. Most atheist don't say I'm certain there are no gods. For myself I would say I disbelieve in the god of the bible as much as I disbelieve in Leprechauns. Leprechauns may exist but until there is some evidence all we have is Leprechaun stories. What's really strange about the Thomas story is, according to the bible he already had 1st person evidence of the prior 37 miracles of Jesus! Doesn't that make this disbelief story seem a little strange? BTW he had already seen Jesus raise someone from the dead, so coming back from the dead shouldn't have been surprising to Thomas either. Don't you think most atheists if they too had seen these 37 miracles they would become believers long before seeing number 37? Think about it, the Thomas story would make more sense if the 37 Jesus miracles never happened and Thomas never saw them, or if John 20:25 was just made up, or if both were just made up. We will never know because, there is no record of any 1st hand witnesses who saw Jesus. There is no original bible, just lots of revisions, additions and deletions. We are left with many bible contradictions (see video), and no one has ever demonstrated anything supernatural, that's why atheist's say; the time to believe is after you have good evidence, not before. Childhood religious indoctrination instills deep seated fears. Most never escape these fears, and few question their church group beliefs. Christians can see this in other religions but childhood indoctrination blinds them from their own group. Few are committed to knowing what is true about what they were taught as a child. I recommend this book to better understand the psychology of belief "T he God Virus: How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture" I agree. We were brought up to not question the bible and never talk against the Christian God. Jetmech states he doesn't know how people are brave enough to say things about god or question god. And, that's exactly where a lot of theists are. I know I was at one point. When I quit worshiping the Christian God I still believed he existed. I was 12 and definitely thought that he existed and by turning away from worshiping him I was going to hell. After all, that's what the bible says and I still believed the bible was the words of this particular god. I just choose at that point to not compromise my integrity by worshiping a god I thought was horrific after reading about the Amelekites in the OT. When I actually lost my belief, that came years later and when that happened it just all of a sudden made so much sense and I saw how I had been programmed by fear and the lie that a blood sacrifice was required for my sins to be forgiven. I also remember being appalled that someone had to be tortured on the cross, die for my sins, but I accepted that at the time. It made me feel so horrible that I was so horrible someone had to die for me. I am glad to say those are no longer concerns and all the fear is gone!
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 14:42:05 GMT -5
But...... 1.5 billion Muslim's read.... Jews and Christians who reject Muhammad as being unbelievers. Allah says: " Whoever ascribes partners unto Allah, for him Allah has forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.' " [Sûrah al-Mâ'idah: 72]
Different cultural myths. looks like your doomed no matter what religion it is.... Haha yes, we will be in so many different hells once all the gods that we don't believe in are done with us!
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 14:44:19 GMT -5
Yes I have read who is thought to be the authors of the gospels and when they were believed to be written. That’s why I say no writer of the gospels had first hand knowledge of Jesus. What do you mean no writer of the Gospel had seen Jesus? Matthew and John were apostles of Jesus. John, James were 1st cousin to Jesus, their mothers were sisters. John, James his brother had known each others since childhood. That was why John felt VERY close to Jesus, and it was he who leaned on Jesus chests.
That was one of the reasons the Gospel of John, where he had a clearer picture of Jesus the Christ, the Word God/Logos than the three other Gospels. Matthew knew him only the few years with Jesus as his apostle during his earthly ministry. Mark and Luke had NOT met Jesus in person.All of the NT is written well after Jesus death. None of the gospels except possibly the Gospel of John are written by the people they are named after. I have read your attempts at saying they are, but they weren't and no biblical scholar worth his knowledge would ever say otherwise anymore.
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 14:50:11 GMT -5
1. You would think a god who created the entire universe in a week would not resort to name calling arguments like a child, but rather provide some good evidence and reason like adults do. 2. From the above you use "the bible to prove the bible". That's like using a Superman comic book to prove Superman exists, or an argument for the Napkin Religion using the napkin. *** It wasn't God who called people are fools but the people of God who wrote and said it and they are correct. The unbelievers don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the wonderful things He has prepared for them to ENJOY for eternity. Christ, one of the Creators of the Universe came down from heaven to give us eternal life but many people don't believe in such a gift exists... That is NOT smart don't you think? There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 15:35:41 GMT -5
What do you mean no writer of the Gospel had seen Jesus? Matthew and John were apostles of Jesus. John, James were 1st cousin to Jesus, their mothers were sisters. John, James his brother had known each others since childhood. That was why John felt VERY close to Jesus, and it was he who leaned on Jesus chests.
That was one of the reasons the Gospel of John, where he had a clearer picture of Jesus the Christ, the Word God/Logos than the three other Gospels. Matthew knew him only the few years with Jesus as his apostle during his earthly ministry. Mark and Luke had NOT met Jesus in person. All of the NT is written well after Jesus death. None of the gospels except possibly the Gospel of John are written by the people they are named after. I have read your attempts at saying they are, but they weren't and no biblical scholar worth his knowledge would ever say otherwise anymore. *** Many of The early church fathers were co-workers of the apostles so they would KNOW who wrote the Gospels better than 2000 yrs later so-called PHD. Experts in the Bible.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 1, 2018 15:39:22 GMT -5
Ok, then. So your best and only evidence of the bible stories are those same bible stories??? its where the evidence lies without regard to subjective opinions made 19 centuries later.... What one really should consider are the methods used to obtain "evidence" at the time of the NT, -word of mouth, -supernatural visions etc.
But perhaps even more important is the process they used to interpret THAT evidence.
In NT biblical days the system of analyzing & interpreting things was so totally unlike the way we do today that we can't just accept without question anything said at that time.
In those days of the bible the whole world determined the " truth" of something using different criteria than we do today!
example: there were beliefs of OTHER people "raising from the dead, -no JUST Jesus! That same criteria continued until the 18th century when we entered the Age of Enlightenment also called the Age of Reason.
That is when a set of criteria begin to be developed that could be used universally in all situations where one was seeking to know the truth of a matter.
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 16:15:09 GMT -5
All of the NT is written well after Jesus death. None of the gospels except possibly the Gospel of John are written by the people they are named after. I have read your attempts at saying they are, but they weren't and no biblical scholar worth his knowledge would ever say otherwise anymore. *** Many of The early church fathers were co-workers of the apostles so they would KNOW who wrote the Gospels better than 2000 yrs later so-called PHD. Experts in the Bible. Well if the RCC were co workers with the apostles then the RCC is right, they are the only true church. It's the Protestants that have it all wrong. Thankfully I don't need to worry about which one is right or wrong. In my world it's all got no evidence of being true.
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Post by xna on Nov 1, 2018 17:03:30 GMT -5
I'm having difficulty in understanding why there is/was "fear" for some that were raised in any church. Fear is a strong fundamental emotion, and Christianity uses fear a lot to control. The bible has many example of uses of fear to control. For example in this same thread nathan quoted this verse with fear. Proverbs 1:7 Says " ... The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; but FOOLS despise wisdom and instruction.
Fear of going to hell is what you need saved from. If you removed fear, hell and damnation you could improve Christianity. JMT.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 17:22:21 GMT -5
*** Many of The early church fathers were co-workers of the apostles so they would KNOW who wrote the Gospels better than 2000 yrs later so-called PHD. Experts in the Bible. Well if the RCC were co workers with the apostles then the RCC is right, they are the only true church. It's the Protestants that have it all wrong. Thankfully I don't need to worry about which one is right or wrong. In my world it's all got no evidence of being true. Some of The early church fathers were Co-workers or companions/disciples with the apostles, and they were doing it alright then Split, divisions began at the end of the 3-4th century.... The minority of the church fathers kept TRUE to Jesus and the apostles teaching but Majority of them became RCC bishops and Pope. Then the biggest split came during the REFORMATION= The Protestants movement from within the RCC.
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Post by nathan on Nov 1, 2018 17:29:58 GMT -5
*** It wasn't God who called people are fools but the people of God who wrote and said it and they are correct. The unbelievers don't KNOW or UNDERSTAND the wonderful things He has prepared for them to ENJOY for eternity. Christ, one of the Creators of the Universe came down from heaven to give us eternal life but many people don't believe in such a gift exists... That is NOT smart don't you think? There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me. In the book of Rev. 21:4-5 where God said there will be no more tears, sorrows, pains... ALL of the past life, people, the Old earth that we know will NOT be remembered anymore. God will make EVERYTHING new He will wipe the OLD life from our minds, so it's gone or ERASE forever. There will be NO HELL, no rebellious spirits, no hatred in the NEW heaven. Everyone will live in peace and harmony with one another. Rev. 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
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Post by snow on Nov 1, 2018 17:36:27 GMT -5
There is nothing wonderful about sitting in heaven and having a front row seat to watch the others suffering for eternity in hell. That would be hell for me. In the book of Rev. 21:4-5 where God said there will be no more tears, sorrows, pains... ALL of the past life, people, the Old earth that we know will NOT be remembered anymore. God will make EVERYTHING new He will wipe the OLD life from our minds, so it's gone or ERASE forever. There will be NO HELL, no rebellious spirits, no hatred in the NEW heaven. Everyone will live in peace and harmony with one another. Rev. 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
So hell isn't for eternity? Because we know that the rich man could be seen by those who had died and gone to heaven. It's like a house of cards once you start to examine it and the hundreds of different beliefs there are about hell and heaven, it all starts collapsing into chaos.
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