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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 28, 2018 20:31:01 GMT -5
i don't do polls...for destroying the confirmation process... i doubt we will find out anything new... he wouldn't answer because that would just set a precedent for delay after delay besides he doesn't really have the authority to do that... Oh, he does have the right to ask the WH for an investigation. And they will ask the FBI (if they dare). Well, so they have. I recall many times when Trump said publicly that the FBI didn't do such an investigation, and that they didn't WANT to do such an investigation. So what did it take. Just tip one domino and all the other uncertain ones fall with him. How simple and quickly and easy it was to get the president to summon the FBI. Now we'll see if he can control how the FBI do their "supplemental" and "limited" investigation. The man is ridiculously stupid about on how a law abiding democracy operates.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 28, 2018 20:55:12 GMT -5
well as time progresses quality men are going to become afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape which will screw relations for decades or longer...good luck finding a quality man ladies... I doubt that. Men who do nothing wrong still don't have much to worry about. Quality men don't prejudge a woman that comes forward with this kind of accusation. They take it seriously and try to find out the truth. So far I haven't seen a whole lot of quality men out there among the Republicans. I don't think there is a woman out there that thinks it's not disgusting if she is lying and she is doing us far more harm that any man if she is lying. But, the attitude here by some, and the republicans has been to say she's lying and it's a con job. Before they know anything about it she is already condemned. No quality men in that crowd and women would be well advised to steer clear of them. The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 23:16:02 GMT -5
I doubt that. Men who do nothing wrong still don't have much to worry about. Quality men don't prejudge a woman that comes forward with this kind of accusation. They take it seriously and try to find out the truth. So far I haven't seen a whole lot of quality men out there among the Republicans. I don't think there is a woman out there that thinks it's not disgusting if she is lying and she is doing us far more harm that any man if she is lying. But, the attitude here by some, and the republicans has been to say she's lying and it's a con job. Before they know anything about it she is already condemned. No quality men in that crowd and women would be well advised to steer clear of them. The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight". i suspect he meant he might sue for defamation when he said "fight"...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 23:19:00 GMT -5
I doubt that. Men who do nothing wrong still don't have much to worry about. Quality men don't prejudge a woman that comes forward with this kind of accusation. They take it seriously and try to find out the truth. So far I haven't seen a whole lot of quality men out there among the Republicans. I don't think there is a woman out there that thinks it's not disgusting if she is lying and she is doing us far more harm that any man if she is lying. But, the attitude here by some, and the republicans has been to say she's lying and it's a con job. Before they know anything about it she is already condemned. No quality men in that crowd and women would be well advised to steer clear of them. The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight". and your side is just as desperate to stop the confirmation because of its nefarious plans..
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 28, 2018 23:22:23 GMT -5
The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight". i suspect he meant he might sue for defamation when he said "fight"... Good luck. Karma sucks.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 28, 2018 23:26:14 GMT -5
The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight". and your side is just as desperate to stop the confirmation because of its nefarious plans.. True. I don't care for nefarious plans.
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 5:54:48 GMT -5
Guilt as accused, eh?
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 6:07:26 GMT -5
Lets say Kavanagh wasn't guilty of the specific allegation of Ford. Lets say he does feel guilty of something in his life, possibly during that time. Is it possible his defensive body language is being induced, not only by his accuser, but we, his audience?
If you take a hundred people at random and accuse them of something terrible and outrageous they weren't guilty of, and you make it palatable or it just happens to be palatable in an apparent court of "public opinion", how many of them would "fold", like having a nervous breakdown as it were, and admit to things they never did?
Consider the precipice he is on now, as these accusations are being assumed to be true. His job opportunity and position is in peril. And depending on the man he is today, whether he actually has integrity, or not, he could face the lack of faith, support, and falling from favor, possibly among his own family. If the accusations are not true, we can call this a witch hunt. Kavanagh is being set to take the blame for every past, present, and future brute's brutishness.
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 6:15:24 GMT -5
Shouldn't due process of the law, that one is innocent until proven guilty, require Ford or the DA to try the accused in a court of law? Did she not file a police report? Is it beyond the statute of limitations?
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 6:18:36 GMT -5
So if Kavanaugh commits suicide tomorrow, how will you all go down on the man?
Guilty as charged?
Innocent?
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Post by rational on Sept 29, 2018 8:58:13 GMT -5
The real motivation behind the GOP behavior here: They're desperate to have Kavanaugh confirmed because they know they're 'way far out on a limb and they're drooling for success. Notice that when Kavanaugh was being questioned, he vowed that if they end up not "voting for him" he was going to carry on the fight anyway. What fight? Applying for a job is not a "fight". and your side is just as desperate to stop the confirmation because of its nefarious plans.. >:D What would make the plans of either side wicked or criminal? The underlying issues here seem to be regarding a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, possibly disenfranchising segments of society, and seek redress to discrimination. And then there is a possibility that the question of whether sitting presidents can be investigated or indicted might also reach the supreme court. The rights of the sitting president has risen higher and higher into what the GOP is looking for. The simple solution is to nominate another candidate. And there are many available people but getting a person on the right (yes, extremely right) side of presidential rights is more difficult
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Post by Gene on Sept 29, 2018 10:07:27 GMT -5
So if Kavanaugh commits suicide tomorrow, how will you all go down on the man? Guilty as charged? Innocent? Inconclusive.
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Post by rational on Sept 29, 2018 11:05:15 GMT -5
So if Kavanaugh commits suicide tomorrow, how will you all go down on the man? Guilty as charged? Innocent? Inconclusive. I always find it curious when discussing matters of morality that some believe that the presence of some emotional aspect should make a difference: Me: I am against the death penalty. NotMe: But suppose your wife/daughter/grand child was murdered and the criminal was caught. Wouldn't you want the criminal to get the the death penelty? Me: No, the facts are still the same.Whether Kananaugh is dead, alive, raptured, or abducted and probed by aliens the facts remain the same. In this case mostly a cloudy mist of allegations. As Gene said, still inconclusive.
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Post by snow on Sept 29, 2018 12:15:49 GMT -5
So if Kavanaugh commits suicide tomorrow, how will you all go down on the man? Guilty as charged? Innocent? Unknown for me. I don't have enough data from either side to make a decision. That's why I say it needs to be investigated. My heart goes out to both of them at the moment. It's that limbo moment where no one knows but them, what the truth really is. If he's innocent then she needs to be slammed but if he's guilty then he shouldn't be in a position where women with sexual assault charges ever come before him in court. That includes the courts he is presiding over at the moment too. But at the moment if he makes a bad decision based on past deeds that taint his judgment, there is always a supreme court judge to overturn his judgment. When he is that final judge, that's not good.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 15:59:27 GMT -5
Only if their plan is "nefarious".
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 16:51:59 GMT -5
Shouldn't due process of the law, that one is innocent until proven guilty, require Ford or the DA to try the accused in a court of law? Did she not file a police report? Is it beyond the statute of limitations? Due process of law should indeed be followed. But there are two problems here, (1) due process has NOT been followed, and (2) the pertinent crime has not been properly defined. What has happened is that Kavanaugh has been (by his political supporters) declared innocent before any due process. It matters not whether Ford filed a police report -- she knows that he cannot be prosecuted for anything he may have done to her. She also knows that even if he did what she says he did, that is NOT what would necessarily prevent him from getting the job. The crime Kavanaugh has been accused of and NEVER investigated for is the accusation that he lied about it. That is the totality of this whole showdown. Due process of law would require that an investigation should follow the accusation of the crime. Here, the crime being that he lied under oath, it means that the accusation would have to come AFTER his Senate hearings under oath, not before. So now we have those accusations brought forth and it is time to investigate the accusations of lying under oath. It turned out that the only person able to authorize such an investigation (President Trump) refused to authorize it - contrary to due process principles. ONE PERSON took responsibility to see to it that due process did take place, and that person has been wildly condemned in this forum. Kavanaugh's supporters right now have their opportunity to allow the "innocent until proven guilty" principle work. If it's proven that Kavanaugh didn't lie, then he will be found not guilty and undoubtedly approved. Kavanaugh is already a judge -- he knows perfectly well that his innocence about lying has to be tested by an investigation -- he painted himself into a very tight corner by refusing under oathto recommend such an investigation - he had his chance. But there's one problem that an accused liar has to deal with, and that is the matter that he is accused of lying about. And this time it involves the salacious details of what he may have done in high school. 5hit happens -- and that's why we have due process. For his own good he better not have lied or even misled the Senate under oath or he'll not only lost this job but be impeached from the judgeship he already has.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2018 17:04:17 GMT -5
I can't help but thing about seminars that teach people how to stay safe. One I know of the guy first draws a line down the middle of a chalk board and puts a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then he asks the men what they did today to make sure they would be safe from sexual assault. The room remains silent. One man says 'stay out of prison'. But another is more honest and says, "I don't really think about it'. Then he asks the women's side and they tell all the things they do. Have a dog, carry mace, don't jog at night , carry their keys defensively etc. It's so natural for a woman and a man doesn't have a clue that they do this all the time . It's something women are aware of all the time. So until there is the same level of problem in both genders, the one gender that doesn't have to worry about these things, really can't know. Women should not have to do all these things just to be save from men, but we do and it's pretty much business as usual. Would things change if men were in this position every day? well as time progresses quality men are going to become afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape which will screw relations for decades or longer...good luck finding a quality man ladies... Well , as I have said before, wally -I know a lot of "quality men", -as you call them, -and they aren't "afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape" as you claim .
They are more concerned about the women in their own family as well as all women in general .
I am sorry wally, -but from what I have seen from your posts is that you don't seem to understand the definition of what you refer to as "quality men."
I have taken self-defense classes, I carry two small defense weapons on my key ring. I also bought them as gifts this past Christmas for EVERYONE, -my sons included.
I figure that my sons , -even though may not need them for themselves, -may find themselves in a situation that they could help someone else.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 17:11:54 GMT -5
well as time progresses quality men are going to become afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape which will screw relations for decades or longer...good luck finding a quality man ladies... Well , as I have said before, wally -I know a lot of "quality men", -as you call them, -and they aren't "afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape" as you claim .
They are more concerned about the women in their own family as well as all women in general .
I am sorry wally, -but from what I have seen from your posts is that you don't seem to understand the definition of what you refer to as "quality men."
I have taken self-defense classes, I carry two small defense weapons on my key ring. I also bought them as gifts this past Christmas for EVERYONE, -my sons included.
I figure that my sons , -even though may not need them for themselves, -may find themselves in a situation that they could help someone else.
It amazes me how many people find sloppy drunks quality men.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2018 17:14:45 GMT -5
Shouldn't due process of the law, that one is innocent until proven guilty, require Ford or the DA to try the accused in a court of law? Did she not file a police report? Is it beyond the statute of limitations? Due process of law should indeed be followed. But there are two problems here, (1) due process has NOT been followed, and (2) the pertinent crime has not been properly defined. What has happened is that Kavanaugh has been (by his political supporters) declared innocent before any due process. It matters not whether Ford filed a police report -- she knows that he cannot be prosecuted for anything he may have done to her. She also knows that even if he did what she says he did, that is NOT what would necessarily prevent him from getting the job. The crime Kavanaugh has been accused of and NEVER investigated for is the accusation that he lied about it. That is the totality of this whole showdown. Due process of law would require that an investigation should follow the accusation of the crime. Here, the crime being that he lied under oath, it means that the accusation would have to come AFTER his Senate hearings under oath, not before. So now we have those accusations brought forth and it is time to investigate the accusations of lying under oath. It turned out that the only person able to authorize such an investigation (President Trump) refused to authorize it - contrary to due process principles. ONE PERSON took responsibility to see to it that due process did take place, and that person has been wildly condemned in this forum. Kavanaugh's supporters right now have their opportunity to allow the "innocent until proven guilty" principle work. If it's proven that Kavanaugh didn't lie, then he will be found not guilty and undoubtedly approved. Kavanaugh is already a judge -- he knows perfectly well that his innocence about lying has to be tested by an investigation -- he painted himself into a very tight corner by refusing under oathto recommend such an investigation - he had his chance. But there's one problem that an accused liar has to deal with, and that is the matter that he is accused of lying about. And this time it involves the salacious details of what he may have done in high school. 5hit happens -- and that's why we have due process. For his own good he better not have lied or even misled the Senate under oath or he'll not only lost this job but be impeached from the judgeship he already has. Thanks for your explanation, Bob.
It is so hard to get people to understand that.
It was the same about Nixon.
And admittedly, it is difficult at times to remember that because the actions are what draws our attention.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 29, 2018 17:24:27 GMT -5
"President Donald Trump on Wednesday said he could withdraw his support for Brett Kavanaugh depending on the testimony in a high-profile Thursday hearing into multiple accusations of sexual misconduct against the Supreme Court nominee." The Trump backscratchers and cheerleaders are really quite confused. They don't know if they are supposed to give a 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' to this new development! That's probably his move. He gets to claim "witch hunt", and appoint someone else (who you know they've probably been vetting/scrubbing for a while now). He'll score political points ("Dems are obstructing, look at what I have to deal with, do you want to give them more power!?") before midterms. Ultimately, he'd get a judge rushed through, and political ammo. I wouldn't be surprised if that was his backup plan within 5 minutes of hearing about the allegations. When will people learn to stop underestimating him? Some times I think that you have it right about how Trump thinks.
He is, after all, a business man, (not always successful but ..) and no doubt he has honed his ability i how to know manipulate people.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2018 18:00:14 GMT -5
well as time progresses quality men are going to become afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape which will screw relations for decades or longer...good luck finding a quality man ladies... Well , as I have said before, wally -I know a lot of "quality men", -as you call them, -and they aren't "afraid to deal with women on the chance they are going to be accused of rape" as you claim .
They are more concerned about the women in their own family as well as all women in general .
I am sorry wally, -but from what I have seen from your posts is that you don't seem to understand the definition of what you refer to as "quality men."
I have taken self-defense classes, I carry two small defense weapons on my key ring. I also bought them as gifts this past Christmas for EVERYONE, -my sons included.
I figure that my sons , -even though may not need them for themselves, -may find themselves in a situation that they could help someone else.
i quite sure from your posts that you don't either.... i appreciate that you have taken self dense classes but that doesn't have anything to do with quality men...
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 19:32:49 GMT -5
Thanks for your explanation, Bob.
It is so hard to get people to understand that.
It was the same about Nixon.
And admittedly, it is difficult at times to remember that because the actions are what draws our attention.I have long since learned that even if you're an innocent law abiding citizen, it doesn't guarantee your private little secrets will not become national gossip. All you need is to be somewhere at a certain time for a particular reason and you can end up a witness in some matter totally unrelated to yourself. I found it somewhat amusing that, as they were extracting the miners from the collapsed mine in Chile, that both his wife and his girlfriend showed up at the site where the men were being drawn out of the mine. Ooops!
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 19:51:31 GMT -5
Shouldn't due process of the law, that one is innocent until proven guilty, require Ford or the DA to try the accused in a court of law? Did she not file a police report? Is it beyond the statute of limitations? Due process of law should indeed be followed. But there are two problems here, (1) due process has NOT been followed, and (2) the pertinent crime has not been properly defined. What has happened is that Kavanaugh has been (by his political supporters) declared innocent before any due process. It matters not whether Ford filed a police report -- she knows that he cannot be prosecuted for anything he may have done to her. She also knows that even if he did what she says he did, that is NOT what would necessarily prevent him from getting the job. The crime Kavanaugh has been accused of and NEVER investigated for is the accusation that he lied about it. That is the totality of this whole showdown. Due process of law would require that an investigation should follow the accusation of the crime. Here, the crime being that he lied under oath, it means that the accusation would have to come AFTER his Senate hearings under oath, not before. So now we have those accusations brought forth and it is time to investigate the accusations of lying under oath. It turned out that the only person able to authorize such an investigation (President Trump) refused to authorize it - contrary to due process principles. ONE PERSON took responsibility to see to it that due process did take place, and that person has been wildly condemned in this forum. Kavanaugh's supporters right now have their opportunity to allow the "innocent until proven guilty" principle work. If it's proven that Kavanaugh didn't lie, then he will be found not guilty and undoubtedly approved. Kavanaugh is already a judge -- he knows perfectly well that his innocence about lying has to be tested by an investigation -- he painted himself into a very tight corner by refusing under oathto recommend such an investigation - he had his chance. But there's one problem that an accused liar has to deal with, and that is the matter that he is accused of lying about. And this time it involves the salacious details of what he may have done in high school. 5hit happens -- and that's why we have due process. For his own good he better not have lied or even misled the Senate under oath or he'll not only lost this job but be impeached from the judgeship he already has. If I remember right, Bill Clinton's impeachment came down to whether he lied under oath. Demonstrated or proven lying, doesn't go over well in the context of accusation. Call it karma, the wrath of god, or the love of god, if you've done wrong and haven't repented, or a charge of guilt by association remains formally or informally actionable upon you, you're gonna take a fall. Politics complicates the karmatic assumption. The war between America's parties resembles a holy war. Perhaps it always has .. what other nation endured civil war like America's? And when you're at war, the only good enemy is a dead enemy. So Kavanaugh may or may not be guilty of his accusers accusations, or guilty of lying under oath. He may have thought lying was the expedient way to his confirmation. Not that he did what Ford accuses him of. But if he went to one drunken party on one occasion, if he blacked out drunk once (meaning he couldn't recall or account for his behavior), if he became hostile or aggressive even once, dry or drunk .... he's left himself open to accusation, and the opposing side in this war will take advantage of his indiscretion(s).
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Post by Dennis J on Sept 29, 2018 20:06:09 GMT -5
Or, he just as likely, be as innocent as he has claimed...
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Post by Lee on Sept 29, 2018 20:23:43 GMT -5
I care most about what he is now. Did he indulge in lasciviousness drinking during his youth? If he did, the most honorable thing to do probably is confess up.
People lie or withhold details of their pasts, for various reasons. One, it doesn't represent who they are now. Two, it's nobody's business, if no one was criminally victimized, or if the "victim" was a co-conspirator to the "crime".
Mama's don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. Or let them get drunk with drunk women.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 20:56:58 GMT -5
If I remember right, Bill Clinton's impeachment came down to whether he lied under oath. Demonstrated or proven lying, doesn't go over well in the context of accusation. Call it karma, the wrath of god, or the love of god, if you've done wrong and haven't repented, or a charge of guilt by association remains formally or informally actionable upon you, you're gonna take a fall. Politics complicates the karmatic assumption. The war between America's parties resembles a holy war. Perhaps it always has .. what other nation endured civil war like America's? And when you're at war, the only good enemy is a dead enemy. So Kavanaugh may or may not be guilty of his accusers accusations, or guilty of lying under oath. He may have thought lying was the expedient way to his confirmation. Not that he did what Ford accuses him of. But if he went to one drunken party on one occasion, if he blacked out drunk once (meaning he couldn't recall or account for his behavior), if he became hostile or aggressive even once, dry or drunk .... he's left himself open to accusation, and the opposing side in this war will take advantage of his indiscretion(s). Yes, the most logical "suspicion" right now is the he could have thought a little white lie would just ease his transition into the Supreme Court. Granted, he made it all the way to Federal Court judge without raising any such problems, but that appointment was to a very different kind of court and in a small section of the country. This time the appointment was of interest to the whole country and involved far greater powers than his previous appointment. But Kavanaugh has another little problem that isn't mentioned much. The hearing the Senate committee held to evaluate his suitability didn't go all that smoothly. He was found to be somewhat less that fully forthcoming in his involvement with various other employment positions he had held, and not everyone was happy with his contention that a sitting president is immune from indictment. A president who is immune from indictment is in reality a virtual dictator. That's all it takes to create a dictator out of a democracy. That's what just happened in Turkey.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 29, 2018 21:00:37 GMT -5
I care most about what he is now. Did he indulge in lasciviousness drinking during his youth? If he did, the most honorable thing to do probably is confess up. People lie or withhold details of their pasts, for various reasons. One, it doesn't represent who they are now. Two, it's nobody's business, if no one was criminally victimized, or if the "victim" was a co-conspirator to the "crime". Mama's don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. Or let them get drunk with drunk women. Well, you're right. But the fact is that his "right now" might just be that he could lie under oath. For a supreme court judge, that is worse than anything else he could have ever done. We may in the end have to thank the "Me Too" women for preventing a more dictatorial presidency. Who knows?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 1:13:47 GMT -5
That's probably his move. He gets to claim "witch hunt", and appoint someone else (who you know they've probably been vetting/scrubbing for a while now). He'll score political points ("Dems are obstructing, look at what I have to deal with, do you want to give them more power!?") before midterms. Ultimately, he'd get a judge rushed through, and political ammo. I wouldn't be surprised if that was his backup plan within 5 minutes of hearing about the allegations. When will people learn to stop underestimating him? Some times I think that you have it right about how Trump thinks.
He is, after all, a business man, (not always successful but ..) and no doubt he has honed his ability i how to know manipulate people.
A large part of his success is down to his ego. He also has very little pretense. The result is a narcissistic jerk who usually wins a game of chicken because giving him his way is easier than going down with him. For any politician, their image is all important. An ugly battle through the mud brings their reputation down. People elected Trump when his reputation was lousy from the onset. When you can mock a disabled reporter, speak of grabbing women by the..., and the "moral majority(ish)" STILL elect you, you start the game on house money. He'll win regardless with Kavanagh. What people don't remember is that he's not a social conservative by a long shot. He couldn't care less whether he leaves a lasting legacy of conservatism on the Supreme Court. Where his base is worried about Roe v. Wade, he has to worry about keeping the Marjory after midterms, for his agenda. So, wasn't it brilliant to nominate an embodiment of a social conservative judge before midterms? If he goes through, he gets a boost from his base, who will see him as boosting his "true conservative" principles. If there's a fight and a scandal, he can cry 'obstructionist!'. If there's a full on FBI investigation, and the Dems manage to get everything they can reasonably want (majority in house, Kavanaugh filibustered/withdrawn) Trump will still win. He'll nominate a judge more moderate, blame dens for the need to comprise, and it will motivate his base worth fear.
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