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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 5, 2018 10:45:36 GMT -5
Why? I can't understand why you would think that.
Why wouldn't someone want to give up those "frail and failing bodies" for a new wonderful "whole eternal body" as STR stated if one could believe that there is an "after life?"
As I said with your other similar post, -that just doesn't make any sense. It's makes sense the same as you saying people with fail and failing bodies want to think there is an afterlife/something better. To me a person is more likely to want it all to end at the grave and not live forever if they are frail, suffering or otherwise. Why does it make sense to you that they'd want to live forever in paradise but not that someone would just want it all to end. Period. I'm not dmg but the Bible promises that the resurrection body will not know sorrows, not weep, not know of the body's weaknesses as was known on earth. So why wouldn't they want to live in such conditions esp after had the opposite during life on earth? It's the matter of believing what the Bible says about it. Btw, we know what we've known in earthly life is going to end by death, whether we believe unto salvation or whether we're an atheists. Difference is believers know what has been promised is simply "Paradise" as you put it. They want to taste that after their hard earthly life and know it won't ever go back to hardness.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 5, 2018 11:03:52 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 11:29:53 GMT -5
*** I read and studied this topic for many years, it seems to me many Christians have taken scriptures out of context and create their own doctrines because it doesn't add up with the rest and other scriptures.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 5, 2018 13:54:28 GMT -5
*** I read and studied this topic for many years, it seems to me many Christians have taken scriptures out of context and create their own doctrines because it doesn't add up with the rest and other scriptures. I've read and studied the Bible for more years then you, but I was reading them with 2x2 eyes and little understanding. Please read those 3 articles carefully, it will help you see things that are very seldom discussed except in denial by many people esp people in the 2x2s. I'm not asking you to change your opinion but to gain an understanding of what I've tried to tell you, that most Christians are instructed on in the Bible. It clarifies what you see as God contradicting Jesus and clarifies things Jesus' words. Such as many are called but few are chosen... Jesus' sacrifice saves many (but not all). We don't realize that when God created our souls/spirits before the world ever began, that he interacted with our spirits and he came to know us. He doesn't just began to learn about us sometime after we're born in human flesh. Furthermore God decides when he is going to send our spirits into human flesh on the earth. He wisely in his own counsel knows who of his elect are going to do the best for his will and purpose for each clime.
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 14:40:34 GMT -5
Why? I can't understand why you would think that.
Why wouldn't someone want to give up those "frail and failing bodies" for a new wonderful "whole eternal body" as STR stated if one could believe that there is an "after life?"
As I said with your other similar post, -that just doesn't make any sense. It's makes sense the same as you saying people with frail and failing bodies want to think there is an afterlife/something better. To me a person is more likely to want it all to end at the grave and not live forever if they are frail, suffering or otherwise. Why does it make sense to you that they'd want to live forever in paradise but not that someone would just want it all to end. Period. The reason why it makes no sense to me is this. If you believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and have an afterlife where it's been promised that there is no suffering, pain etc. If you don't believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and there be nothing. Most people by the time they die are weak and frail, but that isn't what determines what they want to happen after they die. Their beliefs determine that imo. My mom was very frail and weak when she passed away in her mid 90's. But she definitely wanted to go to heaven.
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 15:21:31 GMT -5
*** I read and studied this topic for many years, it seems to me many Christians have taken scriptures out of context and create their own doctrines because it doesn't add up with the rest and other scriptures. I've read and studied the Bible for more years then you, but I was reading them with 2x2 eyes and little understanding. Please read those 3 articles carefully, it will help you see things that are very seldom discussed except in denial by many people esp people in the 2x2s. I'm not asking you to change your opinion but to gain an understanding of what I've tried to tell you, that most Christians are instructed on in the Bible. It clarifies what you see as God contradicting Jesus and clarifies things Jesus' words. Such as many are called but few are chosen... Jesus' sacrifice saves many (but not all). We don't realize that when God created our souls/spirits before the world ever began, that he interacted with our spirits and he came to know us. He doesn't just began to learn about us sometime after we're born in human flesh. Furthermore God decides when he is going to send our spirits into human flesh on the earth. He wisely in his own counsel knows who of his elect are going to do the best for his will and purpose for each clime. ** We have discussed the Baptist doctrine Predestination and once saved for over 20 yrs on TMB. I have some good notes I copied from different ones on here. The Predestination and once saved is always saved doctrine started by a protestant Reformers by the man name Calvin. Predestination is only 400 yrs doctrine and many Protestants denominations and the 2x2s do not agree with it.
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Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2018 15:46:31 GMT -5
It's makes sense the same as you saying people with frail and failing bodies want to think there is an afterlife/something better. To me a person is more likely to want it all to end at the grave and not live forever if they are frail, suffering or otherwise. Why does it make sense to you that they'd want to live forever in paradise but not that someone would just want it all to end. Period. The reason why it makes no sense to me is this. If you believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and have an afterlife where it's been promised that there is no suffering, pain etc. If you don't believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and there be nothing. Most people by the time they die are weak and frail, but that isn't what determines what they want to happen after they die. Their beliefs determine that imo. My mom was very frail and weak when she passed away in her mid 90's. But she definitely wanted to go to heaven. And like you said those who don't believe in heaven just want to die to end it all. So both make sense according to ones belief whereas dmm.. said that me saying people just wanting to die with no after life didn't make sense.
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2018 16:38:28 GMT -5
The reason why it makes no sense to me is this. If you believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and have an afterlife where it's been promised that there is no suffering, pain etc. If you don't believe in a God and an afterlife, and you are frail in this life, you would likely be more inclined to want to die and there be nothing. Most people by the time they die are weak and frail, but that isn't what determines what they want to happen after they die. Their beliefs determine that imo. My mom was very frail and weak when she passed away in her mid 90's. But she definitely wanted to go to heaven. And like you said those who don't believe in heaven just want to die to end it all. So both make sense according to ones belief whereas dmm.. said that me saying people just wanting to die with no after life didn't make sense. No, that's not what I got from what she said. She said it made no sense that people who are frail or aging just want to die with no afterlife. That doesn't make any sense since the frail and aging have different beliefs about what happens when they die and some believe that we just die and there is nothing, and some think that they die and go to the heaven of their religion.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 5, 2018 17:42:30 GMT -5
I've read and studied the Bible for more years then you, but I was reading them with 2x2 eyes and little understanding. Please read those 3 articles carefully, it will help you see things that are very seldom discussed except in denial by many people esp people in the 2x2s. I'm not asking you to change your opinion but to gain an understanding of what I've tried to tell you, that most Christians are instructed on in the Bible. It clarifies what you see as God contradicting Jesus and clarifies things Jesus' words. Such as many are called but few are chosen... Jesus' sacrifice saves many (but not all). We don't realize that when God created our souls/spirits before the world ever began, that he interacted with our spirits and he came to know us. He doesn't just began to learn about us sometime after we're born in human flesh. Furthermore God decides when he is going to send our spirits into human flesh on the earth. He wisely in his own counsel knows who of his elect are going to do the best for his will and purpose for each clime. ** We have discussed the Baptist doctrine Predestination and once saved for over 20 yrs on TMB. I have some good notes I copied from different ones on here. The Predestination and once saved is always saved doctrine started by a protestant Reformers by the man name Calvin. Predestination is only 400 yrs doctrine and many Protestants denominations and the 2x2s do not agree with it. Read those 3 articles. In my opinion once saved always saved isn't what predestination is about. It's like Moses told God to strike his name from "the book you've written" because the C of Israel had sinned so greatly. But God answered Moses, "No, I'll strike off the name of the guilty." That doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. But it's like I've tried to tell you, that in those times before the world was created, God interacted with all our spirits/souls, thus he cane to know us long before we were ever borne. Thus is his Foreknowledge. And having that Foreknowledge of who is what makes it sensible that God would predestinate his elect. It's not like he goes day to day picking people here or there, but he actually knows us. It is no special process at all Don't you pick people for reasons to do with what they are and can get done? How about employers picking the best applicants for the position. God's choices are from his own counsel. However I'm quite sure his choices are made in what he knows about each person's spirit, that they would be ones to want God's will and purpose accomplished.
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 17:50:31 GMT -5
** We have discussed the Baptist doctrine Predestination and once saved for over 20 yrs on TMB. I have some good notes I copied from different ones on here. The Predestination and once saved is always saved doctrine started by a protestant Reformers by the man name Calvin. Predestination is only 400 yrs doctrine and many Protestants denominations and the 2x2s do not agree with it. Read those 3 articles. In my opinion once saved always saved isn't what predestination is about. It's like Moses told God to strike his name from "the book you've written" because the C of Israel had sinned so greatly. But God answered Moses, "No, I'll strike off the name of the guilty." That doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. But it's like I've tried to tell you, that in those times before the world was created, God interacted with all our spirits/souls, thus he cane to know us long before we were ever borne. Thus is his Foreknowledge. And having that Foreknowledge of who is what makes it sensible that God would predestinate his elect. It's not like he goes day to day picking people here or there, but he actually knows us. It is no special process at all Don't you pick people for reasons to do with what they are and can get done? How about employers picking the best applicants for the position. God's choices are from his own counsel. However I'm quite sure his choices are made in what he knows about each person's spirit, that they would be ones to want God's will and purpose accomplished. STR, your belief of Predestination doctrine and verses sounds very MUCH Like John Calvin the Reformer.
John Calvin: The Belgic Confession of 1561 affirmed that God "delivers and preserves" from perdition "all whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable council, of mere goodness hath elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without respect to their works" (Article XVI). Calvinists believe that God picked those who he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell. John Calvin thought people who were saved could never lose their salvation and the "elect" (those God saved) would know they were saved because of their actions. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e.) Predestination - Wikipedia Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the "paradox of free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of religious determinism; and usually predeterminism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
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Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2018 18:29:48 GMT -5
And like you said those who don't believe in heaven just want to die to end it all. So both make sense according to ones belief whereas dmm.. said that me saying people just wanting to die with no after life didn't make sense. No, that's not what I got from what she said. She said it made no sense that people who are frail or aging just want to die with no afterlife. That doesn't make any sense since the frail and aging have different beliefs about what happens when they die and some believe that we just die and there is nothing, and some think that they die and go to the heaven of their religion. That's what I said in the beginning but dmm said it didn't make sense.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 5, 2018 19:07:54 GMT -5
Read those 3 articles. In my opinion once saved always saved isn't what predestination is about. It's like Moses told God to strike his name from "the book you've written" because the C of Israel had sinned so greatly. But God answered Moses, "No, I'll strike off the name of the guilty." That doesn't sound like once saved always saved to me. But it's like I've tried to tell you, that in those times before the world was created, God interacted with all our spirits/souls, thus he cane to know us long before we were ever borne. Thus is his Foreknowledge. And having that Foreknowledge of who is what makes it sensible that God would predestinate his elect. It's not like he goes day to day picking people here or there, but he actually knows us. It is no special process at all Don't you pick people for reasons to do with what they are and can get done? How about employers picking the best applicants for the position. God's choices are from his own counsel. However I'm quite sure his choices are made in what he knows about each person's spirit, that they would be ones to want God's will and purpose accomplished. STR, your belief of Predestination doctrine and verses sounds very MUCH Like John Calvin the Reformer.
John Calvin: The Belgic Confession of 1561 affirmed that God "delivers and preserves" from perdition "all whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable council, of mere goodness hath elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without respect to their works" (Article XVI). Calvinists believe that God picked those who he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell. John Calvin thought people who were saved could never lose their salvation and the "elect" (those God saved) would know they were saved because of their actions. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e.) Predestination - Wikipedia Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the "paradox of free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of religious determinism; and usually predeterminism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PredestinationI didn't sign on to Calvinism. I know that God didn't just start creating things willy-nilly. I'm sure he'd considered just what he wanted to affect and so he spent time before setting things into motion when creating. We've often mentioned about his creation of other humans besides Adam and Eve. You tell fantastic stories about Adam and his first wife. Saying that Adam had already lived in the earth before he cane into Eden. However the Bible doesn't tell those fantastic stories. The way Genesis starts out it sounds like it was a sudden thing God wanted to do in creating. But after knowing the patience if God on lesser important things, it doesn't stand to reason he just up and started creating willy-nilly. He planned it all, made clear his blueprint and sent his only Son to create it as he so desired. That included in his plan, he'd created souls) spirits before the world ever became. Those spirits were living in heaven with God, they interacted with God before they were given into human bodies in the earth. Of course God would have planned to always have his elect on the face of the Earth at every given time. Why? Bible indicates that by God's people others will be judged by them who lived a similiar circumstance.
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Post by nathan on Sept 5, 2018 19:13:28 GMT -5
STR, your belief of Predestination doctrine and verses sounds very MUCH Like John Calvin the Reformer.
John Calvin: The Belgic Confession of 1561 affirmed that God "delivers and preserves" from perdition "all whom he, in his eternal and unchangeable council, of mere goodness hath elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without respect to their works" (Article XVI). Calvinists believe that God picked those who he will save and bring with him to Heaven before the world was created. They also believe that those people God does not save will go to Hell. John Calvin thought people who were saved could never lose their salvation and the "elect" (those God saved) would know they were saved because of their actions. The version of predestination espoused by John Calvin, after whom Calvinism is named, is sometimes referred to as "double predestination" because in it God predestines some people for salvation (i.e. unconditional election) and some for condemnation (i.e.) Predestination - Wikipedia Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God, usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.[1] Explanations of predestination often seek to address the "paradox of free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of religious determinism; and usually predeterminism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination
I didn't sign on to Calvinism. I know that God didn't just start creating things willy-nilly. I'm sure he'd considered just what he wanted to affect and so he spent time before setting things into motion when creating. We've often mentioned about his creation of other humans besides Adam and Eve. You tell fantastic stories about Adam and his first wife. Saying that Adam had already lived in the earth before he cane into Eden. However the Bible doesn't tell those fantastic stories. The way Genesis starts out it sounds like it was a sudden thing God wanted to do in creating. But after knowing the patience if God on lesser important things, it doesn't stand to reason he just up and started creating willy-nilly. He planned it all, made clear his blueprint and sent his only Son to create it as he so desired. That included in his plan, he'd created souls) spirits before the world ever became. Those spirits were living in heaven with God, they interacted with God before they were given into human bodies in the earth. Of course God would have planned to always have his elect on the face of the Earth at every given time. Why? Bible indicates that by God's people others will be judged by them who lived a similiar circumstance. You are NOT a Calvinist follower but you believe in the same Predestination doctrine he has taught and believed in 500 yrs ago.
The Bible doesn't record all of the humans history from the beginning. They left out many information, and events. The authors of the first 5 books of the Old Testament, just give enough information to understand the simple version of it. It was written in Poetic, symbolic languages so the adults can figure it out the birds and the bees in Genesis chapters 1-3.
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Post by snow on Sept 6, 2018 13:00:27 GMT -5
No, that's not what I got from what she said. She said it made no sense that people who are frail or aging just want to die with no afterlife. That doesn't make any sense since the frail and aging have different beliefs about what happens when they die and some believe that we just die and there is nothing, and some think that they die and go to the heaven of their religion. That's what I said in the beginning but dmm said it didn't make sense. That's what happens on here sometimes. I think I know what you meant. Sometimes things get misinterpreted.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2018 19:05:06 GMT -5
I didn't sign on to Calvinism. I know that God didn't just start creating things willy-nilly. I'm sure he'd considered just what he wanted to affect and so he spent time before setting things into motion when creating. We've often mentioned about his creation of other humans besides Adam and Eve. You tell fantastic stories about Adam and his first wife. Saying that Adam had already lived in the earth before he cane into Eden. However the Bible doesn't tell those fantastic stories. The way Genesis starts out it sounds like it was a sudden thing God wanted to do in creating. But after knowing the patience if God on lesser important things, it doesn't stand to reason he just up and started creating willy-nilly. He planned it all, made clear his blueprint and sent his only Son to create it as he so desired. That included in his plan, he'd created souls) spirits before the world ever became. Those spirits were living in heaven with God, they interacted with God before they were given into human bodies in the earth. Of course God would have planned to always have his elect on the face of the Earth at every given time. Why? Bible indicates that by God's people others will be judged by them who lived a similiar circumstance. You are NOT a Calvinist follower but you believe in the same Predestination doctrine he has taught and believed in 500 yrs ago.
The Bible doesn't record all of the humans history from the beginning. They left out many information, and events. The authors of the first 5 books of the Old Testament, just give enough information to understand the simple version of it. It was written in Poetic, symbolic languages so the adults can figure it out the birds and the bees in Genesis chapters 1-3.
Don't look down on Calvinism. You believe the Trinity, so did he. Besides that's how the scriptures read. And it makes sense to understand that God has carefully chosen his elect. According to to Moses the book of Life had already been written before there were people in the earth. He said to God, "in that book you HAVE written". This indicates the book had been fully written before Moses time.
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Post by nathan on Sept 6, 2018 19:59:17 GMT -5
You are NOT a Calvinist follower but you believe in the same Predestination doctrine he has taught and believed in 500 yrs ago.
The Bible doesn't record all of the humans history from the beginning. They left out many information, and events. The authors of the first 5 books of the Old Testament, just give enough information to understand the simple version of it. It was written in Poetic, symbolic languages so the adults can figure it out the birds and the bees in Genesis chapters 1-3.
Don't look down on Calvinism. You believe the Trinity, so did he. Besides that's how the scriptures read. And it makes sense to understand that God has carefully chosen his elect. According to to Moses the book of Life had already been written before there were people in the earth. He said to God, "in that book you HAVE written". This indicates the book had been fully written before Moses time. Most of the Protestant churches Reformers believe in the Trinity/Triune God, the early church fathers, the RCC, and the early apostles, and Jesus. Read John chapters 13-17 believe in the concept of the Godhead/Trinity. I believe in Predestination but NOT the way you, Calvin and the Baptists believe it.
I believe God has predestined for ALL to be SAVED that is why He sent Christ to die for ALL not just so and so. NOT ALL want to be saved, many are called but few are chosen to believe in God's gift of Salvation through believing in Jesus. Salvation can be lost, just read what Jesus said to many of the 7 churches... REPENT from your sins or I will remove your names out the book of life.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2018 4:43:29 GMT -5
We are aware of where the reference comes from.
Problem with that idea is that if "god" is really a "god" of love," -as claimed by believers, -why does god allow only a "few" who will find that way?
People believe that THEY are the "few," -the elite, -those who will make the grade.
Anytime there is something of this kind, -it causes the believers to feel special and feeling special is one of the reasons for of being a believer.
quality vs quanity is the best answer.... Ah, but many groups thinks that they are "quality" because they are "few" and therefore the elite. They do so for that very reason to separate themselves from the "great unwashed!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2018 4:51:10 GMT -5
Those were in the days of persecution. one could ASSume that was the reason but one would be guessing at best.... No, one DOESN'T have to "ASSume" anything.
The whole "Christian" church at that time was so small & as yet unorganized that where do you think that they were going to "meet?"
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Post by nathan on Nov 12, 2018 12:16:04 GMT -5
To Euff: Your understanding of the workers and Jesus are kind of screwed up or NOT totally true according to majority of the workers lifestyle. There are a few ex-workers on the board so they KNOW about these things. So, let me explain... Jesus said he had no where to lay his head, that meant when he started out in the ministry, he LEFT ALL his possession, house if he had it, and occupation behind and went forth preaching the gospel by Faith that God the Father would provide for all his needs, homes to stay in, money to buy food, clothes and so on. Jesus has taught the men and women who God has called to be in the apostolic ministry, God would be taken cares of their daily needs just like He takes care of the birds and the lilies in the fields. Read Matthew 7:24-34.In the beginning when Jesus started in the ministry, he had no wife to bring along, or children, no home of his own, no money, he went in faith because he believed that God will move the hearts of men and women to provide for his daily needs. We read in the gospel the women, and men provided for Jesus daily needs and his followers just like he said it would happened in Matthew 7:24-34. AND is still the same today with majority of the workers!After being in the ministry a few years Jesus said this in John 4 after he had done visited with the Samaritan women and the disciples went into town to buy foods. John 4:34-38 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. ~~ Many Samaritans made their choice to serve God because Jesus had taken the time to visit with her at the well. Many years later, we read in the book of Acts 8 Philip the evangelist came and preached the gospel to the Samaritans towns and many decided to serve God because Jesus had sown the gospel seeds to the Samaritan women testimony. Today's workers are enjoying homes to sleep, food to eat, cars to drive, money to spend and so on because of the early days had sown the gospel seeds in the hearts of men and women. The early workers slept in the open sky, in the school rooms, the barns or where they can lay their heads for the nights. The workers today are ENJOYING or reaping the benefits of the early days workers labored... Just like the apostles enjoy the fruits of harvest because of Jesus labor or spending time with the woman at the well.
Like Wally has said, there are some lazy workers among us, who don't like to go out and search for the lost sheep, lost coins and prodigals.... but majority of the workers do go out looking for people to tell about the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I was in the work we constantly busy 7 days a week, having bible studies with people, visit the sick in the nursing homes, hospitals, the elderly, or anyone wants to hear the gospel. Majority of the workers are following Jesus example for being NOT married in the ministry, they are NOT following Peter, who was an married apostle. The unmarried workers want to dedicate their whole life to God and God's people. Married workers have their attention are divided with trying to please the wife and their children if they had it. Paul wrote about this in I Cor. 7:32-33 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. Next you will be saying that Christ was the first worker.... ** The book of Hebrews tells us Jesus was an apostle or the first. He was God the Father 1st New Testament worker/labor or Preacher of the gospel.
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