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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2018 18:31:14 GMT -5
Most people, even in the general population, have no skills at all for detecting and defending themselves against "emotional" abuse. Shaming people is degrading no matter how successful it seems to be. The bigger problem then is that the one who shamed you knows he can do it again because responding to a shaming is the same as confessing a sin to the confessor … they "have you". Bob could there be some connection to what you say in this post that also applies to why Schools never really deal with Bullying? School bullying is a complicated matter. But yes, bullying is always emotional abuse, because the only reason it is exercised is to control someone else. It doesn't matter (1) what the bully wants to acquire from it, or (2) whether there was even a threat of violence. In public schools bullying is more overtly conducted, but normally nothing has ever been done about it unless someone becomes violent. The victim (1) always lacks the physical or emotional skills to rebuff it, (2) gets no support because the only solution is to leave. Lacking any alternative education possibility, the victim (3) continues to be bullied because there is no policy on detecting and punishing emotional bullying, so (4) the victim's only option is violence in some manner, at which point (5) the victim commits a legal offense and must be punished. In such cases, the bully is never held accountable for his abusive behavior, or gets celebrated as the victim if the person he has bullied gets more publicity that he does. Among adults in all company the same thing happens. Unfortunately, rather than learn how to rebuff the abuse, most people still have never been taught how to (1) recognize the tactics of bullies, (2) prevent the abuser from "owning" your response to it, and (3) when and how to blow the whistle on the abuser. Unfortunately, just saying "no" is too often either not enough, or even a signal to the abuser to up his ante. There are lessons to be learned by saying "no" to a worker.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2018 18:33:31 GMT -5
Most people, even in the general population, have no skills at all for detecting and defending themselves against "emotional" abuse. Shaming people is degrading no matter how successful it seems to be. The bigger problem then is that the one who shamed you knows he can do it again because responding to a shaming is the same as confessing a sin to the confessor … they "have you". Bob could there be some connection to what you say in this post that also applies to why Schools never really deal witrh Bullying? BTW, I have a whole chapter in my book about identifying emotionally abusive tactics. They're generic to any situation.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 8, 2018 19:49:05 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 8, 2018 20:18:31 GMT -5
Every time I read Bob's experiences and what happened I just shake my head. I feel so sorry for the guy named 'Bill' in the book (well not just Bill, a lot of people got shafted). He truly got shafted and it is sickening how the workers not only allowed it, but contributed to it. When I read books about the group and how it operates I can't help but wonder if things have just changed a lot in 50 years or was I just completely blind to the corruption? Probably the later as I really did try to just ignore what went on for my own mental health back then. I had no say in whether I had to be part of the group or not as a minor. So I just tried to ignore the talk about me and live my life as best I could. Can anyone comment on whether it was as bad as it was in the 90's as it was when I was growing up in the F&W's in the 50's, 60's and early 70's? Or did things change to the level of corruption we see in the 90's. The Alberta fiasco, and the fiasco in Northern Nevada. I wonder now how many other areas saw things like this and it's just never been talked about. I agree that SO much concerning appearance and technologies and media have changed among the 2x2's. What will not change is the internal politics of the group. It is authoritarian to the point that in any field there is only one person who has the FINAL word on everything that gets addressed, and there is no mechanism of appeal. Don't ask me how some people get to do what no one else can get off with. I never realized that is really what is happening until it happened to me and it was just so obvious. Even the older brother worker could only tell me, "Maybe, I should get some mental counseling." The thing was he really was concerned but couldn't say anything other than that. He didn't dare come right out & say what was happening to me was wrong!
A dictatorship couldn't work any better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2018 15:29:20 GMT -5
Got my book and right now I am reading the 7th chapter ,it is a " délice " to my soul
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 9, 2018 15:44:39 GMT -5
Got my book and right now I am reading the 7th chapter ,it is a " délice " to my soul The stuff of a tense movie, no?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2018 8:18:00 GMT -5
Thanks for starting this thread Alan, I privately told Bob that I'd finish the book, then let it digest a bit then write a review for here. Don't know if there's a better place for it,(?) but if not then I'll post it here in this thread.
In the mean time, and as a way of initial contribution to the conversation, I'll repeat the following that I wrote to Bob,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You won me over with the second paragraph Ch.1. Reminded me much of Marlene Jordan's comments at the picnic, when considering the ordeal they'd been through, although at that time she wasn't yet to your last sentence, in that paragraph.
Interesting that you, Bruce, and I, all had about the same "bedside" experience. You were by far the youngest. I think Bruce was mid teenage, I believe he just brushed "the hand" off and turned away, me in a born again Christian outreach sleeping situation. But I was much older, mid 20's. When I realized what was going on, I bopped the guy in the head, and left. But what are the odds? One has to think that this kind of thing probably went on A LOT more, and all over, than anyone realizes, or have come forward with.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 20, 2018 5:34:08 GMT -5
I'm a few chapters in, and finding Bob's book very enlightening and thought-provoking.
I find myself pondering the content long after putting the book down each time. The power structure and secrecy within the Two-by-Twos seems to have been particularly enabling for power-hungry personalities to wreak havoc over the lives of others, and Bob's book really shines a light on this aspect.
A highly recommended read.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 20, 2018 10:18:18 GMT -5
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Post by magpie1 on Aug 20, 2018 19:18:26 GMT -5
Order from Australia,Thanks if you can help. Magpie
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 20, 2018 19:21:18 GMT -5
Order from Australia,Thanks if you can help. Magpie I just ordered it through Amazon.com.au link
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Post by Lee on Aug 31, 2018 8:57:42 GMT -5
I've almost finished Bob's book. I live one state away from where his saga with the truth or 2x2 occurred, and met most of workers named therein. It's very well written, personally engaging, reflective, and insightful. I may have more comments when I'm done. It can be borrowed from the lending library.
leefryer@yahoo.com
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Post by snow on Aug 31, 2018 13:28:06 GMT -5
I've almost finished Bob's book. I live one state away from where his saga with the truth or 2x2 occurred, and met most of workers named therein. It's very well written, personally engaging, reflective, and inciteful. I may have more comments when I'm done. It can be borrowed from the lending library. leefryer@yahoo.com It is well written. I learned a lot of things about the group that I never knew. When I quit professing I quit paying much attention to the things that happened around me and I'm sure because I didn't profess I wasn't let in on the politics. I do know that some people treat you differently when you quit professing. But to the credit of the friends in my area, most were still pretty good around me. I will forever be grateful to a young couple that made sure I was included in things with the other friends kids when I am sure I would have been left out otherwise. I wasn't allowed school friends when I first quit professing so it was lonely at first. I was 12 and all of a sudden my world changed, the people in it changed how they viewed me. It was not an easy time.
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Post by Lee on Aug 31, 2018 14:10:15 GMT -5
Bob's analysis of Dale Schultz's edict (letter) is compelling, of the sects hypostasis and political nature.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2018 15:28:14 GMT -5
Bob's analysis of Dale Schultz's edict (letter) is compelling, of the sects hypostasis and political nature. Thank you, Lee.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 31, 2018 20:17:12 GMT -5
I too knew many of the workers (and the friends) involved, having been raised and in the work in California, and I had been in the Susanville-Reno-Carson City-Gardnerville/Minden field for the greater part of a year. Though I was unaware at the time, our personal saga (though not as intense as Bob's) occurred soon after Bob's, and one of the brother workers who played a significant role in his story was also a key player in ours. As the pieces are brought together, I realize now why he seemed wary of certain topics, which I thought were innocent enough at the time. He had been a good friend, and a person whom I had regarded as being very open and as a person of integrity. Situations bring out what's in us! I've almost finished Bob's book. I live one state away from where his saga with the truth or 2x2 occurred, and met most of workers named therein. It's very well written, personally engaging, reflective, and insightful. I may have more comments when I'm done. It can be borrowed from the lending library.
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Post by Lee on Sept 1, 2018 9:33:31 GMT -5
I apologise Alan, but I've forgotten the details of your story. I believe you've written about it on TLC and possibly TMB.
Beneath the surface, the workers are insecure in their power and identity. They become reactionary when their assumption to the moral high ground is threatened. The knowledge of their wild historical claims can only feed the paranoid state of mind. Bob's discussion of authentic morality is refreshing.
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Post by intelchips on Sept 1, 2018 10:34:43 GMT -5
Lee
While my primary education and work has always been technically focused in electronics, computers and networks I have always thirsted to explore why my family became wrapped up in religious believe. This then forced me uncontrolled into secondary education on Near East studies. The larger Christian world I couldn't give two cents about what they believe but why I was raised in the "Truth" is and was personal to myself. Thus it is personal why neither they nor other 2 x 2s can't see the fact based truth:
Fact - human civilization is very old Fact - human knowledge was very limited about human civilization for many centuries Fact - great archaeological discoveries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries unearthed for us the great civilizations of the Ancient Near East Fact - archaeologists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were stunned to find the ruins and the records of remarkable peoples and cultures — massive, complex empires in some cases but some of which had completely disappeared from human memory Fact - when found their rich literary and legal texts were indecipherable Fact - following soon that all changed and the Israelites were found to be a small, and actually overrepresented civilization in contrast to their portrayal in the Bible
No where does the Bible (which as I have pointed out above is less then previously thought) say it was written by a god. At best what we have here is a very insignificant group for much of their history. They did manage to establish a very small kingdom in the land that was known as Canaan around the year 1000. But for a people who made a deal with a god look what happened to them next.
Fact - in about 922 [BCE] this kingdom divided into two smaller and lesser kingdoms that fell more in importance Fact - the northern kingdom, which consisted of ten of the twelve Israelite tribes, and known confusingly as Israel, was destroyed in 722 [BCE] by the Assyrians Fact - the southern kingdom, which consisted of two of the twelve tribes and known as Judah, survived until the year 586 [BCE] Fact - then the Babylonians came in and conquered and sent the people into exile and the capital, Jerusalem, fell.
And yet workers speak everyday that this insignificant civilization is a precursor to Christ (a Greek invention). Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness?
Cheers
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Post by Lee on Sept 1, 2018 10:48:41 GMT -5
Because, if only in an oblique sense the truth sect is Christ centered. They read the christian scriptures. They interpret the Jewish scriptures in light of Christ. The question for me is, why is Christ important? To me he represents good motive and the promise of health and favor to men and women, both individually and corporately.
I do not know what to say of civilizations past, except that they appeared to be as sinful as our civilizations are today. For instance slavery, which has only recently been ubiquitously repudiated within christian culture.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 12:16:58 GMT -5
Lee While my primary education and work has always been technically focused in electronics, computers and networks I have always thirsted to explore why my family became wrapped up in religious believe. This then forced me uncontrolled into secondary education on Near East studies. The larger Christian world I couldn't give two cents about what they believe but why I was raised in the "Truth" is and was personal to myself. Thus it is personal why neither they nor other 2 x 2s can't see the fact based truth: Fact - human civilization is very old Fact - human knowledge was very limited about human civilization for many centuries Fact - great archaeological discoveries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries unearthed for us the great civilizations of the Ancient Near East Fact - archaeologists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were stunned to find the ruins and the records of remarkable peoples and cultures — massive, complex empires in some cases but some of which had completely disappeared from human memory Fact - when found their rich literary and legal texts were indecipherable Fact - following soon that all changed and the Israelites were found to be a small, and actually overrepresented civilization in contrast to their portrayal in the Bible No where does the Bible (which as I have pointed out above is less then previously thought) say it was written by a god. At best what we have here is a very insignificant group for much of their history. They did manage to establish a very small kingdom in the land that was known as Canaan around the year 1000. But for a people who made a deal with a god look what happened to them next. Fact - in about 922 [BCE] this kingdom divided into two smaller and lesser kingdoms that fell more in importance Fact - the northern kingdom, which consisted of ten of the twelve Israelite tribes, and known confusingly as Israel, was destroyed in 722 [BCE] by the Assyrians Fact - the southern kingdom, which consisted of two of the twelve tribes and known as Judah, survived until the year 586 [BCE] Fact - then the Babylonians came in and conquered and sent the people into exile and the capital, Jerusalem, fell. And yet workers speak everyday that this insignificant civilization is a precursor to Christ (a Greek invention). Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness? Cheers umm throughout the bible it uses the phrase "word of God" or "word of the lord" or some such thing which implies something written by him through inspiration PLUS it does say that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone tablets which is the beginning of his written word...
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Post by intelchips on Sept 1, 2018 12:47:34 GMT -5
Lee While my primary education and work has always been technically focused in electronics, computers and networks I have always thirsted to explore why my family became wrapped up in religious believe. This then forced me uncontrolled into secondary education on Near East studies. The larger Christian world I couldn't give two cents about what they believe but why I was raised in the "Truth" is and was personal to myself. Thus it is personal why neither they nor other 2 x 2s can't see the fact based truth: Fact - human civilization is very old Fact - human knowledge was very limited about human civilization for many centuries Fact - great archaeological discoveries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries unearthed for us the great civilizations of the Ancient Near East Fact - archaeologists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were stunned to find the ruins and the records of remarkable peoples and cultures — massive, complex empires in some cases but some of which had completely disappeared from human memory Fact - when found their rich literary and legal texts were indecipherable Fact - following soon that all changed and the Israelites were found to be a small, and actually overrepresented civilization in contrast to their portrayal in the Bible No where does the Bible (which as I have pointed out above is less then previously thought) say it was written by a god. At best what we have here is a very insignificant group for much of their history. They did manage to establish a very small kingdom in the land that was known as Canaan around the year 1000. But for a people who made a deal with a god look what happened to them next. Fact - in about 922 [BCE] this kingdom divided into two smaller and lesser kingdoms that fell more in importance Fact - the northern kingdom, which consisted of ten of the twelve Israelite tribes, and known confusingly as Israel, was destroyed in 722 [BCE] by the Assyrians Fact - the southern kingdom, which consisted of two of the twelve tribes and known as Judah, survived until the year 586 [BCE] Fact - then the Babylonians came in and conquered and sent the people into exile and the capital, Jerusalem, fell. And yet workers speak everyday that this insignificant civilization is a precursor to Christ (a Greek invention). Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness? Cheers umm throughout the bible it uses the phrase "word of God" or "word of the lord" or some such thing which implies something written by him through inspiration PLUS it does say that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone tablets which is the beginning of his written word... Wally, just like the larger Christian group the "Truth" adopts the idea that the cherished presuppositions about the Bible are based on astonishing claims that others have made on behalf of the Bible, claims that the Bible has not made on behalf of itself.
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2018 14:00:10 GMT -5
Lee While my primary education and work has always been technically focused in electronics, computers and networks I have always thirsted to explore why my family became wrapped up in religious believe. This then forced me uncontrolled into secondary education on Near East studies. The larger Christian world I couldn't give two cents about what they believe but why I was raised in the "Truth" is and was personal to myself. Thus it is personal why neither they nor other 2 x 2s can't see the fact based truth: Fact - human civilization is very old Fact - human knowledge was very limited about human civilization for many centuries Fact - great archaeological discoveries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries unearthed for us the great civilizations of the Ancient Near East Fact - archaeologists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were stunned to find the ruins and the records of remarkable peoples and cultures — massive, complex empires in some cases but some of which had completely disappeared from human memory Fact - when found their rich literary and legal texts were indecipherable Fact - following soon that all changed and the Israelites were found to be a small, and actually overrepresented civilization in contrast to their portrayal in the Bible No where does the Bible (which as I have pointed out above is less then previously thought) say it was written by a god. At best what we have here is a very insignificant group for much of their history. They did manage to establish a very small kingdom in the land that was known as Canaan around the year 1000. But for a people who made a deal with a god look what happened to them next. Fact - in about 922 [BCE] this kingdom divided into two smaller and lesser kingdoms that fell more in importance Fact - the northern kingdom, which consisted of ten of the twelve Israelite tribes, and known confusingly as Israel, was destroyed in 722 [BCE] by the Assyrians Fact - the southern kingdom, which consisted of two of the twelve tribes and known as Judah, survived until the year 586 [BCE] Fact - then the Babylonians came in and conquered and sent the people into exile and the capital, Jerusalem, fell. And yet workers speak everyday that this insignificant civilization is a precursor to Christ (a Greek invention). Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness? Cheers "Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness?" Probably because very few people have taken the time to study religions of the world and their histories. They were taught that their book and their definition of what God wants is the only right one. What is there to know? Just believe what you've been told. Listen to the apologists, because God knows they have it right (pun intended) and carry on. I truly don't have a problem with that if it just stayed at that level. Unfortunately it seems that to have a different doctrine or religion or non religion just isn't acceptable and these people who have never really delved into the origins of their religion want me to accept what they believe sight unseen! Faith. I failed at faith. I need the cold hard facts, proof. And, I don't mind when facts are found to be wrong and replaced with newer more knowledgeable data. That's how societies live and learn. Refusing to believe something because it contradicts what their 'book' says, holds us back and as was evident in the dark ages, becomes increasingly dangerous for anyone that doesn't believe as you do.
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2018 14:13:31 GMT -5
I am finished the book. Certainly makes me view the things I did observe in a whole new light. Makes me wonder how much grief the workers gave my parents when I quit professing. Was dad's role as an elder with a Sunday meeting in their home jeopardized by my actions? Did my parents suffer a status change when it became evident that they couldn't raise a child that professed? I don't care about anything that people thought about me. I was always more worried about the impact of it on my parents. Still continues to be that today. That is one reason I am still anonymous on here for the most part. I have spoken about what it was like living in that home. I don't think many people that knew my dad, knew what he was like out of the public eye. If they did, they ignored it. But I still loved him very much and I care about what people thought of him. I share my story, not to make him look bad, but to help others understand that their experiences happened to others too. That they are not alone or imagining things. I also feel sorry for my dad because he bought into it hook line and sinker. I often wonder what he would have been like if Willie J hadn't wandered into that small Saskatchewan town and lived with his family at a time when he was most vulnerable. Only one other sibling ever professed and it's interesting that they were also at their most vulnerable around that time. Come to think of it, so was my grandfather. The same happened on my mom's side. Out of all the family, only her mother and her professed. Again, the workers hit a small Saskatchewan town when my grandmother was at her most vulnerable. I wonder.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 1, 2018 16:02:16 GMT -5
Lee While my primary education and work has always been technically focused in electronics, computers and networks I have always thirsted to explore why my family became wrapped up in religious believe. This then forced me uncontrolled into secondary education on Near East studies. The larger Christian world I couldn't give two cents about what they believe but why I was raised in the "Truth" is and was personal to myself. Thus it is personal why neither they nor other 2 x 2s can't see the fact based truth: Fact - human civilization is very old Fact - human knowledge was very limited about human civilization for many centuries Fact - great archaeological discoveries of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries unearthed for us the great civilizations of the Ancient Near East Fact - archaeologists in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were stunned to find the ruins and the records of remarkable peoples and cultures — massive, complex empires in some cases but some of which had completely disappeared from human memory Fact - when found their rich literary and legal texts were indecipherable Fact - following soon that all changed and the Israelites were found to be a small, and actually overrepresented civilization in contrast to their portrayal in the Bible No where does the Bible (which as I have pointed out above is less then previously thought) say it was written by a god. At best what we have here is a very insignificant group for much of their history. They did manage to establish a very small kingdom in the land that was known as Canaan around the year 1000. But for a people who made a deal with a god look what happened to them next. Fact - in about 922 [BCE] this kingdom divided into two smaller and lesser kingdoms that fell more in importance Fact - the northern kingdom, which consisted of ten of the twelve Israelite tribes, and known confusingly as Israel, was destroyed in 722 [BCE] by the Assyrians Fact - the southern kingdom, which consisted of two of the twelve tribes and known as Judah, survived until the year 586 [BCE] Fact - then the Babylonians came in and conquered and sent the people into exile and the capital, Jerusalem, fell. And yet workers speak everyday that this insignificant civilization is a precursor to Christ (a Greek invention). Why doesn't anyone ever call them out on their wrongness? Cheers umm throughout the bible it uses the phrase "word of God" or "word of the lord" or some such thing which implies something written by him through inspiration PLUS it does say that God wrote the 10 commandments on stone tablets which is the beginning of his written word... Come to think of it, Wally has told us that the word of the Lord came to him, and he proclaimed it in this forum. But it took Wally to write that for us.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 1, 2018 16:08:50 GMT -5
Wally, just like the larger Christian group the "Truth" adopts the idea that the cherished presuppositions about the Bible are based on astonishing claims that others have made on behalf of the Bible, claims that the Bible has not made on behalf of itself. This is why I make the statement that what most people know about the Bible, they have learned from someone else before they ever got to read it for themselves.
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Post by Lee on Sept 1, 2018 22:29:08 GMT -5
The authors defer to God as the inspiration of their writings. Unless God doesn't exist, it can't be said categorically that God did not inspire those writings. As far as literature goes, the writings are properly distinguished from other literature.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 2, 2018 0:25:18 GMT -5
The authors defer to God as the inspiration of their writings. Unless God doesn't exist, it can't be said categorically that God did not inspire those writings. As far as literature goes, the writings are properly distinguished from other literature. Yes, of course. My point is that God himself wrote nothing. But all literature is inspired, some by people's spiritual experiences, and the rest by any number of other sources. So what we refer to as scripture is indeed one of the genres of literature.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2018 1:14:30 GMT -5
The authors defer to God as the inspiration of their writings. Unless God doesn't exist, it can't be said categorically that God did not inspire those writings. As far as literature goes, the writings are properly distinguished from other literature. Yes, of course. My point is that God himself wrote nothing. But all literature is inspired, some by people's spiritual experiences, and the rest by any number of other sources. So what we refer to as scripture is indeed one of the genres of literature. Exo_24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
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