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Post by nathan on Feb 11, 2020 1:45:42 GMT -5
not that i am a fan of review005 but it appears he was on to something concerning fixit/2x2 elder it may be that we have another wolf in sheeps clothing here... This looks like the BAD church elder we read about written by the apostle John to the church in the 1st century.
III John 9-12 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true. I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee: But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name. 1) Olea said:It is well known in New Zealand, that person’s ‘8 quotes’ from yesteryear, has issues in their life that need addressing. People are aware of that here. 2) Openingact123 wrote: Baloney! Show me one post, letter, or multimedia clip from a worker concurring with your accusations of "issues in their life that need addressing". Would the overseers give responsibility and leadership to such a person? Would they send him on a convention speaking tour of North America.On the other hand, you have a rebellious elder/Fixit (or now group of elders) who have taken on the mission to "fix" the unchanging perfect way of truth, against the wishes of nearly all professing people and all workers.I read part of a letter when visiting my parents that was talking about how shortage of "open homes" is causing the workers were having to place meetings in homes where they would prefer not to. This is just another example, though I suspect patience is about to run out, and the workers will need to do some excommunications and give these elders over to Satan.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 11, 2020 3:41:04 GMT -5
not that i am a fan of review005 but it appears he was on to something concerning fixit/2x2 elder it may be that we have another wolf in sheeps clothing here... This looks like the BAD church elder we read about written by the apostle John to the church in the 1st century.
III John 9-12 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God. Demetrius hath good report of all men, and of the truth itself: yea, and we also bear record; and ye know that our record is true. I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee: But I trust I shall shortly see thee, and we shall speak face to face. Peace be to thee. Our friends salute thee. Greet the friends by name. 1) Olea said:It is well known in New Zealand, that person’s ‘8 quotes’ from yesteryear, has issues in their life that need addressing. People are aware of that here. 2) Openingact123 wrote: Baloney! Show me one post, letter, or multimedia clip from a worker concurring with your accusations of "issues in their life that need addressing". Would the overseers give responsibility and leadership to such a person? Would they send him on a convention speaking tour of North America.On the other hand, you have a rebellious elder/Fixit (or now group of elders) who have taken on the mission to "fix" the unchanging perfect way of truth, against the wishes of nearly all professing people and all workers.I read part of a letter when visiting my parents that was talking about how shortage of "open homes" is causing the workers were having to place meetings in homes where they would prefer not to. This is just another example, though I suspect patience is about to run out, and the workers will need to do some excommunications and give these elders over to Satan. Maybe take a look at yourself nathan...I notice you haven't included a lot of posts that YOU made !!
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Post by nathan on Feb 11, 2020 9:30:01 GMT -5
1) STR wrote: It seems to come to me that anybody that’s posted a like to any of Nathans posts of the past year or two are being condemned without cause. He does post truths now ad then. But what he said about antichrist is true. If people don’t believe in God they are antichrist. They are not THE Antichrist but they are antichrist. Have to believe God in order to believe in Christ. And to not fully understand what “Christ” means or not know what “Son of God” means, is truly meaning one is still drinking only the milk of the word. I had to admit that for myself. But then too, God doesn’t give revelations to people who aren’t able or ready to receive them. Jesus said we must always watch and pray lest we fall by the wayside. Or miss out in the joys of the powers of heaven.
I heard in a sermon yesterday, that too many Christians are ignoring the value of the prophecies of old. That they stick with the NT and have no idea how the NT came into being. I got a good laugh at the speaker for he said he’d seen several people come in with bibles of only the NT and Psalms. He said he hoped they got them for half price because they just got half a Bible. 😊
2) MaryH/Cooneyites follower wrote: But, STR we are not antichrist for not believing in the trinity neither are we blasphemers, I love God from my heart. But snow is right, I don't want to make Nathan worse. So if that's how he feels about me, then it's probably best if I don't reply to any of his posts on this board again.
3) NathanB: Please, put me on your ignore list, forever Maryh. Thanks, we don't need to reply to one another from now on. Thanks, STR... some of these people are too stubborn and NOT willing to learn or teachable, and I don't want to waste my time and energy, they stress me out too much. Time to move on with certain ones, they don't truly KNOW what they are believing and who they are WORSHING, and want to keep their false belief so, let them be.
For an example,
1) RoseT. Wrote: Have you looked up some of the old threads yet, reborn ? Where nathan called Sunday meetings ....Sunday Trinity Worship meetings !
2) STR wrote: Technically they are. The meetings include the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When they take the bread and wine they are remembering Jesus and worshipping him as their Savior. They thank him for his sacrifice. They sing songs appropriate to worship him for his Redeeming
To not be worshipping Jesus, they would have to forego the bread and wine..
EDIT: And it is blasphemy to worship anyone that is not God. So those who worship Jesus with the bread and wine ritual ARE worshipping Jesus. But they don’t believe he is God, so the Bible says not to worship anybody but God. So technically it is blasphemy they are committing for they’re worshipping Jesus and not believing he is God. Is it a sin that’s unforgivable? Of course not, it’s done in ignorance.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 11, 2020 20:55:16 GMT -5
1) STR wrote: It seems to come to me that anybody that’s posted a like to any of Nathans posts of the past year or two are being condemned without cause. He does post truths now ad then. But what he said about antichrist is true. If people don’t believe in God they are antichrist. They are not THE Antichrist but they are antichrist. Have to believe God in order to believe in Christ. And to not fully understand what “Christ” means or not know what “Son of God” means, is truly meaning one is still drinking only the milk of the word. I had to admit that for myself. But then too, God doesn’t give revelations to people who aren’t able or ready to receive them. Jesus said we must always watch and pray lest we fall by the wayside. Or miss out in the joys of the powers of heaven. I heard in a sermon yesterday, that too many Christians are ignoring the value of the prophecies of old. That they stick with the NT and have no idea how the NT came into being. I got a good laugh at the speaker for he said he’d seen several people come in with bibles of only the NT and Psalms. He said he hoped they got them for half price because they just got half a Bible. 😊 2) MaryH/Cooneyites follower wrote: But, STR we are not antichrist for not believing in the trinity neither are we blasphemers, I love God from my heart. But snow is right, I don't want to make Nathan worse. So if that's how he feels about me, then it's probably best if I don't reply to any of his posts on this board again. 3) NathanB: Please, put me on your ignore list, forever Maryh. Thanks, we don't need to reply to one another from now on. Thanks, STR... some of these people are too stubborn and NOT willing to learn or teachable, and I don't want to waste my time and energy, they stress me out too much. Time to move on with certain ones, they don't truly KNOW what they are believing and who they are WORSHING, and want to keep their false belief so, let them be.
For an example, 1) RoseT. Wrote: Have you looked up some of the old threads yet, reborn ? Where nathan called Sunday meetings ....Sunday Trinity Worship meetings !2) STR wrote: Technically they are. The meetings include the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. When they take the bread and wine they are remembering Jesus and worshipping him as their Savior. They thank him for his sacrifice. They sing songs appropriate to worship him for his Redeeming
To not be worshipping Jesus, they would have to forego the bread and wine..
EDIT: And it is blasphemy to worship anyone that is not God. So those who worship Jesus with the bread and wine ritual ARE worshipping Jesus. But they don’t believe he is God, so the Bible says not to worship anybody but God. So technically it is blasphemy they are committing for they’re worshipping Jesus and not believing he is God. Is it a sin that’s unforgivable? Of course not, it’s done in ignorance. More "self promoting" nathan !!! But you haven't included posts that you made against maryhig and the Workers of your church have you !!!
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Post by nathan on Feb 13, 2020 9:03:01 GMT -5
Nathan said: Both Jesus and the apostles taught us about the Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit... It was the early father or 2nd century apostles who coined the word TRINITY to describe the Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit BEAUTIFULLY!
The concept of the Trinity/Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is found in Genesis chapter 1 to the book of Revelation.
1) Speak/2x2 church elder: Can you show me please where He and they used the word trinity you see it is a little vague.
HOW MANY times do I have to REPEAT this... The concept of the Trinity is taught in the BIBLE from Genesis to Revelation. The word TRINITY was coined by the 2nd Century by the apostles in the 2nd century... AND the RCC church closed the Bible history event with John apostle in 95 A.D.
If the RCC had included the 2nd century apostles teaching then the word TRINITY would have been included in the Bible.
This is the doctrine and teaching of the TRINITY....
The concept of the Triune God is taught in the Old and New Testament. In the 2nd century the second generation of the apostles/church fathers coined/came up with a beautiful description word "Trinity" to describe the Triune God in the Bible.
The 2nd century apostles.... From A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David W. Bercot
Hippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested.
It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who give understanding. The Father is above ALL, the Son is through ALL, and the Holy Spirit is in ALL. Paul the apostle explains that there is the exact same order within the TRINITY, saying, "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (I Cor. 11:3). So the Father has authority over the Son. The Son is sent by the Father; the Son does the will of the Father; and the Son sits at the Father's right hand. This hierarchy of order can not be reversed. Yet this hierarchy of order in no way diminishes the Son's divinity.
Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are NOT ignorant that there is ONE God; and One Christ, the Lord; and One Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit." He suggested that TRINITY, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized.
Origin (225 A.D.) Saving baptism was NOT complete except by the authority of the most excellent TRINITY of them all. That is, it is made complete by naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this, we join the name of the Holy Spirit to the Unbegotten God (the Father) and to His Only-begotten Son.
~~ After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias.
~~ The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers
Apostolic Fathers' Writings:
Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age.
Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church.
Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death.
Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness.
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.
Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them.
Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation.
Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city.
~~ NathanB: If the Pro-Trinity and Jesus is God overseers workers back then had excommunicated the anti-Trinity workers and Jesus is NOT God from the ministry in 1950s, we would NOT have the problem we have today that the 2x2s church are mostly anti-Trinity and Jesus is NOT God workers and friends heresy believers as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, they are NOT Christians but religious cults.
Because of the workers and friends heresy belief/Anti-trinity stance have made many friends left the 2x2s fellowship! and it put fear on people to attend the workers gospel meetings and to follow Jesus Truth and Way. This false belief has to change ASAP or the 2x2s will be on the same classification as the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons Cults/non-Christians group forever.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 13, 2020 12:56:53 GMT -5
Nathan said: Both Jesus and the apostles taught us about the Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit... It was the early father or 2nd century apostles who coined the word TRINITY to describe the Godhead= Father, Christ, and Holy Spirit BEAUTIFULLY!
The concept of the Trinity/Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is found in Genesis chapter 1 to the book of Revelation.
1) Speak/2x2 church elder: Can you show me please where He and they used the word trinity you see it is a little vague.
HOW MANY times do I have to REPEAT this... The concept of the Trinity is taught in the BIBLE from Genesis to Revelation. The word TRINITY was coined by the 2nd Century by the apostles in the 2nd century... AND the RCC church closed the Bible history event with John apostle in 95 A.D.
If the RCC had included the 2nd century apostles teaching then the word TRINITY would have been included in the Bible.This is the doctrine and teaching of the TRINITY....
The concept of the Triune God is taught in the Old and New Testament. In the 2nd century the second generation of the apostles/church fathers coined/came up with a beautiful description word "Trinity" to describe the Triune God in the Bible.
The 2nd century apostles.... From A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David W. BercotHippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested.It is the Father who commands, and the Son who obeys, and the Holy Spirit who give understanding. The Father is above ALL, the Son is through ALL, and the Holy Spirit is in ALL. Paul the apostle explains that there is the exact same order within the TRINITY, saying, "I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (I Cor. 11:3). So the Father has authority over the Son. The Son is sent by the Father; the Son does the will of the Father; and the Son sits at the Father's right hand. This hierarchy of order can not be reversed. Yet this hierarchy of order in no way diminishes the Son's divinity. Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are NOT ignorant that there is ONE God; and One Christ, the Lord; and One Holy Spirit. Jesus said, "Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit." He suggested that TRINITY, in whose sacrament the nations were to be baptized.Origin (225 A.D.) Saving baptism was NOT complete except by the authority of the most excellent TRINITY of them all. That is, it is made complete by naming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In this, we join the name of the Holy Spirit to the Unbegotten God (the Father) and to His Only-begotten Son. ~~ After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea. At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias.~~ The Apostolic Fathers were Christian theologians who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, who are believed to have personally known some of the Twelve Apostles, or to have been significantly influenced by them.[1] Their writings, though popular in Early Christianity, were ultimately not included in the canon of the New Testament once it reached its final form. Many of the writings derive from the same time period and geographical location as other works of early Christian literature that did come to be part of the New Testament, and some of the writings found among the Apostolic Fathers' seem to have been just as highly regarded as some of the writings that became the New Testament. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Fathers Apostolic Fathers' Writings: Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction. Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age. Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church. Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To James the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one. Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them. Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation. Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Iscariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city. That shows that superstitious stone age babble still has a grip on gullible people today.
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Post by nathan on Feb 22, 2020 10:00:06 GMT -5
Well, maybe the workers and the friends lurkers and others want to read and see it for themselves the workers in the early days and some workers today teach the TRINITY; Jesus is God.
John Long's (2x2 worker from 1898-1907) Journal in 1899 wrote:
William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God." 2) Jack Carroll ( ex-overseer in Oregon, USA) - Sidney, Manitoba Convention - Monday Evening, November 9, 1914 "God is a trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Man is a Trinity: body, soul, and spirit."
3) George Walker (1899 worker) www.trutharchive.net/george-walker---mccordsville-indiana---september-6-1975You can't separate between the three persons in the Trinity because they are all one. They are used in this language to help our finite minds to understand Christ, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit suggests what a mother does for her children. He says, "When they put me on the cross, I will send the Holy Spirit, and He will be in you, teaching you, comforting you, and will be all that a mother could be to you. He can be closer to you than I can be in the flesh." God has made us in three parts, too. We say it is the body, soul, and the spirit. The Bible says sanctify spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the part that God breathed in. You can't separate them. 4) Sam Charlton - The Word of God - Tacoma, Washington - 1958 God is a trinity and man is a trinity - body, soul, and spirit. It has been very wisely planned by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Heaven. They had a private conference and the subject was, “Let us create man in Our image and in Our Likeness.”
5) Leslie White (ex-overseer from Colorado, USA) 1st Oak Lodge Convention - Sunday morning, 2005 "One of the great mysteries that we have in our country and some of our Friends have been silly enough to have got involved in it, and that is that some try to explain the Trinity - The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, nobody can explain or understand that; none of us can understand that. No one can really, fully understand that, but we believe in those three and that they are one, but He is with God. He is God; He's not man; He's not an Angel; He's God-kind. He's like His Father; He's the Son. Just like a natural boy is like his dad, but he's not the dad, but he's got those qualities. He's God the Son; God the Father and God the Holy Ghost. "
6) elizabethcoleman said: 9/1/2015 This might do a few heads in: I have this from a recent convention attendee... "Barry Barkley (Overseer of overseers in the east coast of USA) emphasized that Jesus was fully God but came to earth to become human to enable the lowly sinners such as ourselves to be justified through Him and be with Him in heaven. Barry spoke of the relationship between "God the Father and God the Son." He tied Psalm 22 -- the prophesied words and experience of Jesus -- with passages in the New Testament. These thoughts, perhaps, are nothing "new" to the Bible-believing Christian, but I appreciated the spirit and illumination with which Barry presented elements of our hope in the gospel -- and our need and joyous privilege to make Christ the focal point of all our living." ElizabethColeman wrote: If you now have workers talking this way about God the Son, and Jesus being fully God, where does that leave F&W who strenuously oppose these "doctrines"?
Jesus sent a STERN WARNING! to the church at Pergamos for teaching FALSE Doctrines to His People.
Rev. 2:14-17 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. ~~ Nathan: Dan Hilton was a senior worker from Washington State and California, USA. He was on Calf. and Washington State staff for many years... This is what Dan Hilton preached/taught for many years when I was in living in Washington State. The workers on the staff just passed on what they heard from the Senior workers and overseers had taught them through the years without doing a serious study themselves...
Dan HiltonThe word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century.[Washington State convention 1985] Dan HiltonBeware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity.
[Manhattan MT Conv 1996] Who is Jesus Christ??? -- According to Willis Propp!!! April 12, 1992Question from Dale - OK, may I ask you this question tonight? Now, that is one of the basic fundamentals that you believe that we have to understand, because there are other Jesus' and if we believe that “Jesus was God” that would be incorrect? The reply from Willis Propp, (“Head Worker” of the Province of Alberta, Canada) in his own words. Reply from Willis - The Catholics think they're one person, like the rosary prayer is holy Mary mother of God, holy Mary mother of God, and that is wrong because Jesus is not God. Jesus was the Son of God. John 8 says, I proceeded forth and came from God, I proceeded forth from God so He was the only begotten Son of the Father. He wasn't God, He was the Son of God.Reply from Willis - Yes, if you look at the original of John 1:1 it says he was a god. He was divine. You cannot reconcile a father and a son as one person, you can’t do that. - - -COMMENT- - - Comment: Son of God – son of man Mr. Propp states “He (Jesus) wasn't God, He was the Son of God.” So, let us reason together: If a man has a son, is that son any less human than his father? NO! If the Father (who is God) has a Son, is that Son any less God than His Father? NO!
Another Comment: God plus a god? Mr. Propp states, “…if you look at the original of John 1:1, it says he was a god.” ~~ NathanB: Reading Willis P. answers who is Jesus Christ? He doesn't have a complete picture of Who Jesus is. The word God/Elohim is plural (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). The word God/Elohim refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The RCC does NOT teach the Father and the Son are ONE person, that is Oneness Pentecostal church belief. The Father God/El is Singular. Christ is God/EL also. Both speaking together = the Word God/Elohim becomes Plural. Willis P. does NOT know or understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is. Jesus was NOT a (small g) god. He was God like His Father.
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Post by nathan on Feb 22, 2020 10:13:15 GMT -5
There were 5 overseers that EXCOMMUNICATED Truitt Oyler a 2x2 Trinity believer and Willis Propp was one of the overseers. It seems these overseers have little understanding of the TRUE teachings of the Trinity; Jesus is God like unto the Father... They went ahead to Excommunicated the workers who preached and taught the Trinity and they used Truitt as the example and a warning to ALL workers but some overseers still preach and teach the TRINITY!
Detailed Account of Truitt's beliefs are on TTT: Montana Division 1989-1990 First few paragraphs: This Account concerns three brother Workers born and raised in the State of Montana: 1. John R. Starkweather, born in 1924, son of John, Katie Starkweather, entered the work in Montana in 1954, age 30. 2. Truitt E. Oyler, born in 1946, son of Enos and Bette Oyler, entered in the work in Montana around 1966, about age twenty one (21 yrs). His first companion was John Starkweather. 3. Walter J. Oyler, Truitt’s oldest brother, was born in 1940, entered the work in Montana in 1961, when he was about twenty (20) years old. All three men had entered the work in their native state and were preaching in Montana under the Overseer Tom Lyness. Tom was an Irishman who professed in Ireland in 1902, entered the work in 1903, and came to Canada in 1905. In 1915, Tom was the first Worker who began preaching in Montana where he stayed until his death in 1970, age 87 years. Tom and his sister Annie are buried in Manhattan, Montana and share the same tombstone. (View Tombstone) Upon Tom's death in 1970, the field of Montana and Northern Wyoming were combined with Oregon/ Southern Idaho under the responsibility of Howard Mooney. In 1967, when Truitt had been in the work about three years, he and his companion, John, were overheard discussing the scripture. They were unaware that sister Worker (possibly Blanche Curtis) was also in the house until she came into the room where they were. She was very upset and did not agree with their interpretation. From childhood on, these three men had sat in gospel missions held by early Workers, such as Tom Lyness, his sister Annie, Nellie Williams, Vernon Myers and others. According to reliable sources, Truitt asserted they heard the doctrine the sister worker questioned preached by Tom Lyness and other early workers and that what the three men taught was no different; i.e. that Jesus was divine and could not sin.On the other hand, the sister Worker believed Jesus was human just like she was. Many but not all Friends and Workers believe that Jesus could have sinned and lost his salvation, but was only able to live a sinless life by the power of the Holy Spirit and suffering, self denial and by cutting off sinful thoughts and lust in his mind. This sister Worker became very determined that Truitt, Walter and John would be put out of the work and she eventually succeeded. They were accused of believing and teaching “false doctrine” also called “divisive doctrine.” Their alleged beliefs came to be commonly known as “Truitt’s Doctrine,” but few knew exactly what that doctrine really entailed. Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God, the doctrine of “Original Sin” related to the doctrine of “The Fall,” and perhaps more. Their beliefs will be discussed more fully below. In or about 1967, when John had been in the work for about 13 years, Walter for about 5-6 years, and Truitt for about 3 years, a tribunal meeting was called which culminated in the three men being dismissed from the work. Paul Abenroth was present in this meeting and provided this description: “Three or four of us young bucks happened to be included in a meeting in about 1967 in the house at Olympia, Washington Convention when a number of Workers met with the two Oyler boys and John Starkweather regarding their doctrinal understanding. In attendance were Willie Jamieson, Tharold Sylvester, Howard Mooney, Ernest Nelson, Charlie Krub, Bob Ingram, Ralph Sines, Dennis Jacobsen, Scott Vail, Margaret Robertson, Blanche Curtis and some others. (Note: the first four men were the Overseers of California, Washington, Oregon and Western Canada, respectively) No hymns were sung, no prayers offered -- mainly statements of accusation and warnings against the two Oylers and John. You can rest assured that us younger ones went away with a clear understanding of what we might be in for if we in any way sympathized with the views held by the three fellows who were the subject of the meeting that day. I will highlight two or three points... ONE: It must be understood from the outset that the Friends and Workers do not teach or possibly even understand the orthodox Christian concept of the Fall. It all starts from there. Since these three did teach the Fall, they were at odds with the Friends and Workers right from the start. TWO: Accompanying the orthodox concept of the Fall is the orthodox teaching that Jesus assumed a pre-fall human nature that was perfect and sinless just as Adam was perfect and sinless before the Fall, and further, that given His person and nature as the Son of God he could not sin. This also put them at odds with the Friends and Workers. The Friends and Workers always misunderstood this. When they heard those men say that Jesus could not sin, they interpreted that as meaning he did not have a human nature. The only human nature the Friends ever knew about was a sinful one. Many could not grasp that the orthodox teaching was that the Pre-fall human nature of Adam was also sinless. THREE: The Workers rejected the idea of a Fall, claiming that a Fall would have required God to change his mind and send Jesus as an afterthought, not according to his original plan. Tharold used to flatly state, ‘Adam's sin was not a Fall, but rather an expose.’ FOUR: The bottom line was that word got around that these things the men were teaching were taught by the Catholic Church. For the Workers that settled it. They could not have any Catholic teaching among them. [NOTE: I do not warrant that I have represented them 100% accurately, but only that this is my understanding after many visits with them.] The Workers did not disclose to the men the nature of their offenses, other than to say that they were causing division through divisive doctrine they taught. The Overseers claimed they had some private incriminating papers, but it was not anything the men had written. They were convicted on hearsay. Sometime after the meeting Truitt was sent to Washington and John to California. Not long after, all three men were expelled from the work for teaching “divisive doctrine.”About five years later in, perhaps in 1973, both John and Truitt signed letters agreeing not to teach their "divisive doctrine." John and Truitt were reinstated in the work and sent to other fields. Walter did not return to the work. John was sent to Texas in 1973 where Hubert Childers was the Overseer; and Truitt went to Alaska in 1974 where Bob Ingram was the Overseer. Both men were highly regarded in their new fields and were soon given more responsibility. John became Overseer of Louisiana in 1978 and then Overseer of Texas from 1983 to 1986. Truitt became a senior brother Worker in Alaska.After he was reinstated in the work, Truitt was admonished over the years several times by Workers for continuing to teach his doctrine. After a meeting held in Seattle in October, 1989, Truitt was sent to Alberta, Canada to be with Willis Propp: "We were also disappointed to hear that there is a division in the ministry caused by a few of the Alaska Workers bringing into Washington the influence of the doctrine that Truitt has been teaching in Alaska. This type of division has previously been evident in other areas where Truitt has labored. We had a long visit with Truitt in hope that he would see the damage that had been done. It has been decided that Truitt would go to Alberta with Willis Propp in hope that he could help him see where his doctrine has been in error" (Oct. 3, 1989 letter to Our dear Alaska Friends signed by Tharold Sylvester, Eldon Tenniswood, Ernest Nelson, Howard Mooney). In April, 1990, Truitt was told he must “step aside” from the ministry for teaching “divisive doctrine.” He was about 44 years old. Truitt’s name was on a Workers list for the last time on the first 1989-1990 Alaska Workers List. The revised November, 1989-1990 Alaska Workers List did not include the names of Truitt or Bob Ingram. The following statement was prepared listing the reasons and conditions: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/montana.phpNathanB: Even in his last days on earth 2/2020 Dennis J. has showed us his love for God is still going very strong in his heart and mind. May the Lord God/Christ Jesus grant Dennis peace and a place in His eternal kingdom. He has a very clear understanding of the Godhead, Jesus is God/Yashua= Salvation.
~~ Greg L. (ex-worker 1990s) wrote: I cannot recall anyone preaching on God the Son. The closest I heard was one who said Jesus is to God as a bottle of ocean water is to the ocean. As I have stated before, I think if George Walker believed in God the Son he kept it out of his preaching and perhaps rarely shared such with any. As big an impact as he had, if he preached it, others would be preaching the same. The Triune God might be foundational for Christian churches, but it is not for the F&W; fellowship. ~~ Dennis Jacobsen. (ex-worker in 1960s) wrote: Hello Greg. According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God. According to reports I have heard he did teach this in sermons. And no, I had no reason upon hearing it to document it for it is specifically what Jack Carroll and many others taught and believed. Somewhere in my records once was a copy of Jack's sermon notes, where proof was found of his preaching God to exist as Father Son and Holy Ghost. In every mission from my first, I would point to Jesus as the Word and He existed from the moment GOD first "spoke" later becoming the word made flesh. NEVER ONCE was I corrected for teaching that. NOT ONCE. Also I taught over simplifying there is the Divine Kingdom, Angelic/spirit/demon kingdom, human kingdom, that God Son became human Son of God. Never corrected for that neither though having "Gospel meetings" with about 14 assigned companions, in various states and a couple of countries.NathanB, sir. On this topic, from what you have expressed, I find myself totally in agreement from nearly 72 years (+ circa 40 due to heritage). Greg, sir. More than "likely so." It came as a shock to me to discover 2&2 preachers and their followers anywhere did not believe as I had been taught, and indeed was one of the things I had to re-examine upon my excommunication. My early contacts and instructors in 2&2 ism simply did believe as Nathan expresses, and many of their names were on the first group of workers listing. (William Irvine, Eddy Cooney, John Long, George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.)Do I accept others came along, not believing it? Most absolutely. Do I believe it unfair to state Nathan to be in error regarding it? Equally most absolutely. On this understanding of the nature and personality of God, a supreme being (to me anyway) I once had a copy of Jack Carroll's sermon notes, revealing to me he believed on this subject as Nathan expresses. I knew Tom Lyness believed this, I knew Willie Wier believed this, I knew Mable Gibson believed and taught it.
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Post by nathan on Feb 22, 2020 10:23:17 GMT -5
RossB wrote: Nate - if the first workers didn't believe in the Trinity there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY they would have included the last verse of "Our blest Redeemer" in the first Go-Preachers hymn book of 1909.
First and last verses of the hymn: 1 Our blest Redeemer, ere He breathed His tender, last farewell, A Guide, a Comforter bequeathed With us to dwell. 6 O praise the Father; praise the Son: Blest Spirit, praise to Thee: All praise to God, the three in One, The One in Thee.If most of them didn't believe in the Trinity in 1951 the "Cease not to praise God would not have been included". But between 1951 belief in God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit diminished as the early workers died out and by 1987 the vast, vast majority had elevated Jesus' humanity at the expense of His divinity.
"Cease not to praise God" was dumped and "Christ, my God" was changed to "Christ, my Lord" in the hymn we know well. And not surprisingly from the mid 1980's the group has been in serious decline - people are not only leaving because of major deceitfulness over the history of the group but because of poor doctrine. While the early workers differentiated themselves from established churches and ministers on Matt 10, the claim to apostleship, baptism, "Jesus was a common man" they accepted core Christian doctrine including the Trinity. There was absolutely no issue with it. When these leaders died out and were replaced by others, belief in the one God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit was gradually abandoned, as evidenced by the change in hymns between the 1951 and 1987 books. Barry Barkley is clearly trying to address this issue. If the 2x2 church can't get basic doctrine right on who Jesus is, there is not much hope for it in my opinion.
Mar 12, 2014 Ross.Bowden said: I think God the Son is a useful expression for clarifying understanding.... most current workers and friends will not accept that Jesus is God or God the Son. I have spoken to many New South Wales workers who absolutely deny that Jesus is God or God the Son or part of the Godhead....although many would say he is divine? One senior worker I asked said "of course, he believed in the Trinity" so I then asked "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God but also God the Son". He said "we definitely don't believe the latter..." and the conversation moved on. Having said that I believe that a few workers believe in the Trinity and the Godhead of Jesus. I have only heard the word Trinity mentioned once at Convention by a Canadian worker (Maurice or Morris???) in the 1990's at Silverdale Convention, Sydney. A US worker apparently spoke at a Sydney convention two years ago about the Holy Spirit being the third person of the Godhead and David Saunders apparently referred to Jesus as the great "I am" at this year's Sydney Convention. Generally, it is ridiculed as a Catholic doctrine... whereas in reality it is a core Christian doctrine.
RossB wrote: It's clear from the early hymns (in their Go Preachers' Hymnbook) that the early workers believed in a triune God. If you track this through to 1951 (Hymns Old and New update) they clearly still believed in a triune God. This seemed to change with Eldon Tenniswood and co between the 1951 and 1987 hymnbook when clearly different doctrine (and in my view false doctrine) set in amongst the senior workers. In this period, the power base for the 2x2's shifted from England to the US - hence the latest and current hymnbook was produced in CA. The tombstone of Sam Jones, the most prolific hymnwriter in the 2x2's refers to the line in one of his hymns "....the God who died for me". Clearly, a belief that the Son was God.Edward Cooney was clearly not anti-trinitarian. He would have hardly agreed to the inclusion of the following verse of the hymn (#71) "Our blest redeemer, ere he breathed..." in the Go-Preachers hymnbook if he didn't believe in a triune God. O praise the Father; praise the Son: Blest Spirit, praise to Thee: All praise to God, the three in One, The One in Thee.Likewise, the hymn "When I survey the wondrous cross..." refers to Christ my God - in the Go Preachers hymnbook (and the 1951 O&N but subsequently changed in 1987). Furthermore, in 1952, just eight years before he died, Edward Cooney wrote "now will conclude by greeting all who desire to be children of God in the conceit of our hearts saying: "I am of Christ," for Jesus never said "I am of Christ," but claimed to be the Son of God. He always claimed that God was his Father; and that although he was the mighty God, his Father was mightier and greater than he." (my emphasis added in bold). Source: Patricia Roberts' book Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960 Edward Cooney is clearly not going to write very specific words about Jesus being mighty God, if he did not believe it. Based on his writings, he was very clear in what he believed. A strong theme through his writings is that redemption/atonement for our sins is only available through Christ's blood that was shed on Calvary and eternal life through His resurrection. 2/20/20 RossB wrote: According to Jesus, three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) = the name of the LORD.
Those who loved and obeyed the LORD God in the OT called on the name of the LORD - it is one of the most common expressions mentioned over 80 times. The Prophet Joel said that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD Jehovah will be saved (Joel 2:32) Believers in the NT continued to call on the name of the LORD. Christ asked his disciples to go forth and baptise in the name of the LORD - Father Son and Holy Spirit.
Paul and the apostles continued the practice and instructed people to call on the name of the LORD. Repeating the words of Joel, Paul wrote to the Romans "For there is no difference between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him. For, whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:12-13). V13 is simply a quote from Joel's prophecy. The first Christians who received the Holy Spirit called upon the name of the Lord (Acts 2). Their calling on the Lord was a mark that identified them as Christians. Paul wrote to those in Corinth and also asked Timothy to call on/upon the name of the Lord. When we communicate and relate to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - we call on the name of the LORD God. When the disciples baptised people in the name of Jesus they were simply carrying out Christ's command to baptise people in the name of the LORD. God's command is that people today would continue to call upon the LORD's name - which as Jesus so clearly pointed out is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
1) fixit 2x2 church elder wrote: No one understands trinitarian dogma. NathanB: You and most of the current workers and the friends believe and think like you are possessing the spirits of Arius and his followers= anti-Trinity and anti-Jesus is NOT God, Trinity is heresy; pagans and the devils doctrine! That is blasphemers.... and fixit, Speak and most of the 2x2s don't even KNOW it but the world of Christianity knows it. That is why they call the 2x2s is a false church teaching false doctrines of Christ= a Cult like Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons anti-Trinity; Jesus is NOT God; Trinity is heresy, the pagan and the devils doctrine.Pastor David Legge sermons on 2x2 religious Cult anti-Trinity, anti-Christ is NOT God, heresy.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0roC35Mdow
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Post by nathan on Feb 23, 2020 10:28:16 GMT -5
1) BobW. wrote: I don't want to know anything about what the Trinity IS. It doesn't matter to me what it is. All I want to know is what it is USEFUL FOR. In other words, what does one use it for?
2) Nathan wrote: It seemed you didn't understand the Trinity doctrine when you professed as a 2x2 for over 50 yrs. If you had known before you would not have asked what one use it for. The Holy Spirit should have teach you what the Trinity is useful for because you didn't get it when you professed, because the workers in the states California, Nevada you had lived, they didn't teach you about these things.
No wonder the most of the 2x2s in the world are totally in the dark on the TRINITY and what it useful for.
~~ The usefulness of the Trinity.
How much does the Trinity matter to you? If you found out tomorrow that God is actually only one person instead of three, would your relationship with God feel any different? Would it require a drastic overhaul in the way you think or witness or pray? How much does the Trinity matter to you personally?
How much does the Trinity matter to your church? If you found out tomorrow that your beloved youth pastor had become a staunch modalist—he now insists the Father, Son, and Spirit are actually one person in three manifestations instead of three distinct persons—would your church excommunicate him? Or would that seem like splitting hairs? Is the Athanasian Creed really right to say, “Whoever wishes to be saved must think thus of the Trinity. And whoever rejects this faith will perish everlastingly”? Or is that the overstatement of the millennium?
Judging by the church’s historic creeds, Christians used to think the Trinity is really important. Judging by the honest answers likely given to the questions above, many modern Christians have lost the sense of why it’s so important, even if they’ve retained it in their doctrinal statements. But judging by a growing number of voices, there’s a renewed sense we’ve lost something precious that needs to be recovered.
Most of us have retained a formal belief in the Trinity. What we need to recover is an understanding and a felt sense of why it matters so much. To help us do that, here are two reasons why the Trinity matters.
1. The Trinity Matters because the Gospel Matters
The Trinity isn’t some complicated distraction from the simple gospel—it’s actually part of the gospel. Now, as Fred Sanders once quipped, this doesn’t mean you should begin every witnessing encounter, “God loves you and has a wonderful Trinity for you to understand.” You don’t have to unpack the Trinity in every gospel presentation (although you might, especially if you’re talking to a Muslim).
Nevertheless, I would maintain that the Holy Trinity is right below the surface in even the simplest gospel presentation (and it may poke its head up now and then). Judging by the church’s historic creeds, Christians used to think the Trinity is really important.
If you don’t believe me—if you still think the Trinity is just advanced theology for the experts—consider John 3:16, one of the most famous and simple gospel statements in the whole New Testament. And think carefully about what it says: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
Did you ever notice that even in John 3:16 you’re already wading into trinitarian waters? Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying that the whole doctrine is here full-blown (you’ll need the rest of John’s Gospel to get the Holy Spirit, including a few verses earlier in 3:5). But just think about all the Trinity-related truths stated or implied in this one simple verse. I can think of at least six:
Two of the three persons are explicitly mentioned: God and his only begotten Son. The fact that God has a Son tells us that he’s a Father. It also suggests that when Scripture speaks simply of “God,” it’s often referring specifically to the Father. The fact that the Father gave his Son tells us they’re distinct persons. The Father can’t be the Son if he gave the Son.
It says something about how the Father loves his Son that giving him would be the ultimate demonstration of his fatherly love.
The fact that Jesus is referred to as God’s only Son suggests there’s something unique about Jesus’s sonship. After all, Scripture teaches that God has other sons (Job 2:1; Heb. 2:10). In fact, John has already told us in 1:13 that when we believe in Jesus, we become God’s children. So how can he say that Jesus is God’s only Son? Answer: because while we are sons by grace, he is Son by nature. We become God’s sons by adoption and regeneration, but he doesn’t become God’s Son—he simply is God’s Son, begotten from the Father before all worlds, God from God, light from light, begotten and not made.
John 3:16 tells us that this is how we receive eternal life—by the Father giving his Son. Salvation is trinitarian. The Father has an only, eternally begotten Son, and in his love for sinners he sends that Son for us. The Son of God becomes a Son of Man, so that the sons of men might become sons of God. And then, the Father and Son send their Spirit to to dwell in us so we can experience this new life as sons (John 3:5, 7:37–39, 15:26, 16:12–15).
As Paul puts it in Galatians 4, But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Gal. 4:4–6)
As one writer has said, “The Trinity and the gospel have the same shape.” Are you beginning to see why? This is how God saves us—by sending his Son and Spirit. Our salvation hangs on these two sendings. Without them, God would still be a Father, but he wouldn’t be our Father. He would still have a Son, but he wouldn’t have many sons.
The Trinity matters because the gospel matters.
2. The Trinity Matters because God Matters
The Trinity matters because this is who God is. It’s who he always was and would’ve been even if there had been no you, no me, and no heavens and earth. The question isn’t first and foremost, “Is this practical?” or “Will this be on the test?” The question is “Do I want to know God?” As Fred Sanders observes,
It makes no sense to ask what the point of the Trinity is or what purpose the Trinity serves. The Trinity isn’t for anything beyond itself, because the Trinity is God. God is God in this way: God’s way of being God is to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously from all eternity, perfectly complete in a triune fellowship of love. If we don’t take this as our starting point, everything we say about the practical relevance of the Trinity could lead to one colossal misunderstanding: thinking of God the Trinity as a means to some other end, as if God were the Trinity in order to make himself useful.
One reason we Americans neglect the Trinity is because we’re so pragmatic. Instead of asking “Is it true?” we’re more likely to ask “Is it useful?” “Will it help me get ahead?” “Will it make me a better spouse or parent?” Those are good questions, but if that’s all that matters to us, then how are we any different from the pagans? Even the pagans care about those things.
To know God savingly is to know him as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anything less is sub-Christian.
The number one question is, “Do you want to know God?” Because as Jesus said, “This is eternal life: that they know you the only God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3). To know God savingly is to know him as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anything less is sub-Christian. The Trinity matters because God matters, even if it doesn’t strike us as practical. And yet it is practical. Because—to bring our two points together—the kind of God we have determines the kind of relationship we will have with him.
For example: Is your God an all-sufficient fountain of joy and love with an inexhaustible supply available for you anytime? Or did your God create you and save you because he was lonely and needed you? It depends. Is your God the unitarian God of Arianism (think Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses), modalism, or Islam? Or is he the biblical three-in-one? The God of John’s Gospel was never lonely, because even in the beginning, before anything made was made, he already had someone with him. “The Word was with God” (John 1:1).
Is the Trinity practical? Let me ask you—what kind of salvation does your gospel give you? A judge who forgives your sins? Not bad. But not good enough. The triune gospel is better by far.
This is good news, because it tells us God didn’t create us because he needed somebody to love. He wasn’t without family. He was already a Father. And he already had an eternally begotten Son, the radiance of his glory and the exact imprint of his nature (Heb. 1:3), lying in his bosom (John 1:18) and basking in his love (John 17:24). You and I aren’t the result of some man-shaped hole in the Father’s heart; rather, you and I represent the overflow of the Father’s eternal love for his Son—as though the Father had said, “Son, this love of ours is just too good to keep to ourselves. So together with our eternal Spirit, let us make man in our own image, so that others might see and experience our love, and so that you might be the firstborn among many brothers” (cf. Gen. 1:26; Rom. 8:29).
Is the Trinity practical? Let me ask you—what kind of salvation does your gospel give you? A judge who forgives your sins? Not bad. But not good enough. The triune gospel is better by far. It’s God giving himself to you in creation and redemption. The same Son who was begotten by the Father before all worlds was sent by the Father into this world, to live and die for us and our salvation. And the same Spirit who proceeded from the Father and the Son from all eternity was sent by the Father and the Son into this world, to live inside us and bring us to Christ—and through Christ to the Father—so that we might be taken into his family, surrounded by his life and love, to glorify and enjoy him forever.
It’s more than forgiveness. It’s joining an eternal family. It’s being conformed to the image of the Son by the Spirit (Rom. 8:29) and becoming a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). In short, it’s the kind of salvation that only the trinitarian God can offer.
This is the Holy Trinity. This isn’t just a doctrine; this is our life. It’s more than just a mystery or a mind-bending math problem; this is our God, who loves and gave his Son for us (John 3:16), who loves us and gave himself for us (Gal. 2:20), who loves us and lives inside of us (Rom. 5:5).
~~ Justin Dillehay (MDiv, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is a pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Hartsville, Tennessee, where he resides with his wife, Tilly, and his children, Norah, Agnes, and Henry. He is a contributing editor of The Gospel Coalition.
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Post by Roselyn T on Feb 23, 2020 20:41:41 GMT -5
1) BobW. wrote: I don't want to know anything about what the Trinity IS. It doesn't matter to me what it is. All I want to know is what it is USEFUL FOR. In other words, what does one use it for?
2) Nathan wrote: It seemed you didn't understand the Trinity doctrine when you professed as a 2x2 for over 50 yrs. If you had known before you would not have asked what one use it for. The Holy Spirit should have teach you what the Trinity is useful for because you didn't get it when you professed, because the workers in the states California, Nevada you had lived, they didn't teach you about these things.
No wonder the most of the 2x2s in the world are totally in the dark on the TRINITY and what it useful for.
~~ The usefulness of the Trinity.
How much does the Trinity matter to you? If you found out tomorrow that God is actually only one person instead of three, would your relationship with God feel any different? Would it require a drastic overhaul in the way you think or witness or pray? How much does the Trinity matter to you personally? How much does the Trinity matter to your church? If you found out tomorrow that your beloved youth pastor had become a staunch modalist—he now insists the Father, Son, and Spirit are actually one person in three manifestations instead of three distinct persons—would your church excommunicate him? Or would that seem like splitting hairs? Is the Athanasian Creed really right to say, “Whoever wishes to be saved must think thus of the Trinity. And whoever rejects this faith will perish everlastingly”? Or is that the overstatement of the millennium?Judging by the church’s historic creeds, Christians used to think the Trinity is really important. Judging by the honest answers likely given to the questions above, many modern Christians have lost the sense of why it’s so important, even if they’ve retained it in their doctrinal statements. But judging by a growing number of voices, there’s a renewed sense we’ve lost something precious that needs to be recovered.Most of us have retained a formal belief in the Trinity. What we need to recover is an understanding and a felt sense of why it matters so much. To help us do that, here are two reasons why the Trinity matters. 1. The Trinity Matters because the Gospel Matters
The Trinity isn’t some complicated distraction from the simple gospel—it’s actually part of the gospel. Now, as Fred Sanders once quipped, this doesn’t mean you should begin every witnessing encounter, “God loves you and has a wonderful Trinity for you to understand.” You don’t have to unpack the Trinity in every gospel presentation (although you might, especially if you’re talking to a Muslim). Nevertheless, I would maintain that the Holy Trinity is right below the surface in even the simplest gospel presentation (and it may poke its head up now and then). Judging by the church’s historic creeds, Christians used to think the Trinity is really important.If you don’t believe me—if you still think the Trinity is just advanced theology for the experts—consider John 3:16, one of the most famous and simple gospel statements in the whole New Testament. And think carefully about what it says: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” Did you ever notice that even in John 3:16 you’re already wading into trinitarian waters? Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying that the whole doctrine is here full-blown (you’ll need the rest of John’s Gospel to get the Holy Spirit, including a few verses earlier in 3:5). But just think about all the Trinity-related truths stated or implied in this one simple verse. I can think of at least six: Two of the three persons are explicitly mentioned: God and his only begotten Son. The fact that God has a Son tells us that he’s a Father. It also suggests that when Scripture speaks simply of “God,” it’s often referring specifically to the Father. The fact that the Father gave his Son tells us they’re distinct persons. The Father can’t be the Son if he gave the Son. It says something about how the Father loves his Son that giving him would be the ultimate demonstration of his fatherly love. The fact that Jesus is referred to as God’s only Son suggests there’s something unique about Jesus’s sonship. After all, Scripture teaches that God has other sons (Job 2:1; Heb. 2:10). In fact, John has already told us in 1:13 that when we believe in Jesus, we become God’s children. So how can he say that Jesus is God’s only Son? Answer: because while we are sons by grace, he is Son by nature. We become God’s sons by adoption and regeneration, but he doesn’t become God’s Son—he simply is God’s Son, begotten from the Father before all worlds, God from God, light from light, begotten and not made. John 3:16 tells us that this is how we receive eternal life—by the Father giving his Son. Salvation is trinitarian. The Father has an only, eternally begotten Son, and in his love for sinners he sends that Son for us. The Son of God becomes a Son of Man, so that the sons of men might become sons of God. And then, the Father and Son send their Spirit to to dwell in us so we can experience this new life as sons (John 3:5, 7:37–39, 15:26, 16:12–15). As Paul puts it in Galatians 4, But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (Gal. 4:4–6) As one writer has said, “The Trinity and the gospel have the same shape.” Are you beginning to see why? This is how God saves us—by sending his Son and Spirit. Our salvation hangs on these two sendings. Without them, God would still be a Father, but he wouldn’t be our Father. He would still have a Son, but he wouldn’t have many sons. The Trinity matters because the gospel matters. 2. The Trinity Matters because God Matters
The Trinity matters because this is who God is. It’s who he always was and would’ve been even if there had been no you, no me, and no heavens and earth. The question isn’t first and foremost, “Is this practical?” or “Will this be on the test?” The question is “Do I want to know God?” As Fred Sanders observes, It makes no sense to ask what the point of the Trinity is or what purpose the Trinity serves. The Trinity isn’t for anything beyond itself, because the Trinity is God. God is God in this way: God’s way of being God is to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simultaneously from all eternity, perfectly complete in a triune fellowship of love. If we don’t take this as our starting point, everything we say about the practical relevance of the Trinity could lead to one colossal misunderstanding: thinking of God the Trinity as a means to some other end, as if God were the Trinity in order to make himself useful. One reason we Americans neglect the Trinity is because we’re so pragmatic. Instead of asking “Is it true?” we’re more likely to ask “Is it useful?” “Will it help me get ahead?” “Will it make me a better spouse or parent?” Those are good questions, but if that’s all that matters to us, then how are we any different from the pagans? Even the pagans care about those things. To know God savingly is to know him as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anything less is sub-Christian.
The number one question is, “Do you want to know God?” Because as Jesus said, “This is eternal life: that they know you the only God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (John 17:3). To know God savingly is to know him as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Anything less is sub-Christian. The Trinity matters because God matters, even if it doesn’t strike us as practical. And yet it is practical. Because—to bring our two points together—the kind of God we have determines the kind of relationship we will have with him. For example: Is your God an all-sufficient fountain of joy and love with an inexhaustible supply available for you anytime? Or did your God create you and save you because he was lonely and needed you? It depends. Is your God the unitarian God of Arianism (think Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses), modalism, or Islam? Or is he the biblical three-in-one? The God of John’s Gospel was never lonely, because even in the beginning, before anything made was made, he already had someone with him. “The Word was with God” (John 1:1).
Is the Trinity practical? Let me ask you—what kind of salvation does your gospel give you? A judge who forgives your sins? Not bad. But not good enough. The triune gospel is better by far. This is good news, because it tells us God didn’t create us because he needed somebody to love. He wasn’t without family. He was already a Father. And he already had an eternally begotten Son, the radiance of his glory and the exact imprint of his nature (Heb. 1:3), lying in his bosom (John 1:18) and basking in his love (John 17:24). You and I aren’t the result of some man-shaped hole in the Father’s heart; rather, you and I represent the overflow of the Father’s eternal love for his Son—as though the Father had said, “Son, this love of ours is just too good to keep to ourselves. So together with our eternal Spirit, let us make man in our own image, so that others might see and experience our love, and so that you might be the firstborn among many brothers” (cf. Gen. 1:26; Rom. 8:29). Is the Trinity practical? Let me ask you—what kind of salvation does your gospel give you? A judge who forgives your sins? Not bad. But not good enough. The triune gospel is better by far. It’s God giving himself to you in creation and redemption. The same Son who was begotten by the Father before all worlds was sent by the Father into this world, to live and die for us and our salvation. And the same Spirit who proceeded from the Father and the Son from all eternity was sent by the Father and the Son into this world, to live inside us and bring us to Christ—and through Christ to the Father—so that we might be taken into his family, surrounded by his life and love, to glorify and enjoy him forever. It’s more than forgiveness. It’s joining an eternal family. It’s being conformed to the image of the Son by the Spirit (Rom. 8:29) and becoming a partaker of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4). In short, it’s the kind of salvation that only the trinitarian God can offer.This is the Holy Trinity. This isn’t just a doctrine; this is our life. It’s more than just a mystery or a mind-bending math problem; this is our God, who loves and gave his Son for us (John 3:16), who loves us and gave himself for us (Gal. 2:20), who loves us and lives inside of us (Rom. 5:5).~~ Justin Dillehay (MDiv, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is a pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Hartsville, Tennessee, where he resides with his wife, Tilly, and his children, Norah, Agnes, and Henry. He is a contributing editor of The Gospel Coalition. Well you better fibd another Church nathan !!
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Post by nathan on Mar 1, 2020 9:35:54 GMT -5
1) Fixit: Them? How can you say "them" and claim to be a monotheist? Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’
2) NathanB: The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is BOTH Mono/Singular= El and Plural= Elohim. Monotheist when God the Father is speaking by Himself! or the Christ is Speaking by Himself and the Holy Spirit speaking also by Himself. Plural when three of them are together for an example in Genesis 1. Who is the "us" when God stated "Let us make man in our image"? Genesis 1:26. ESV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 11:7 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 1, 2020 20:48:32 GMT -5
1) Fixit: Them? How can you say "them" and claim to be a monotheist? Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’2) NathanB: The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is BOTH Mono/Singular= El and Plural= Elohim. Monotheist when God the Father is speaking by Himself! or the Christ is Speaking by Himself and the Holy Spirit speaking also by Himself. Plural when three of them are together for an example in Genesis 1. Who is the "us" when God stated "Let us make man in our image"? Genesis 1:26. ESV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 11:7 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Another example of nathan's self promotion !!
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 2, 2020 21:25:27 GMT -5
There were 5 overseers that EXCOMMUNICATED Truitt Oyler a 2x2 Trinity believer and Willis Propp was one of the overseers. It seems these overseers have little understanding of the TRUE teachings of the Trinity; Jesus is God like unto the Father... They went ahead to Excommunicated the workers who preached and taught the Trinity and they used Truitt as the example and a warning to ALL workers but some overseers still preach and teach the TRINITY!
Detailed Account of Truitt's beliefs are on TTT: Montana Division 1989-1990 First few paragraphs: This Account concerns three brother Workers born and raised in the State of Montana: 1. John R. Starkweather, born in 1924, son of John, Katie Starkweather, entered the work in Montana in 1954, age 30. 2. Truitt E. Oyler, born in 1946, son of Enos and Bette Oyler, entered in the work in Montana around 1966, about age twenty one (21 yrs). His first companion was John Starkweather. 3. Walter J. Oyler, Truitt’s oldest brother, was born in 1940, entered the work in Montana in 1961, when he was about twenty (20) years old. All three men had entered the work in their native state and were preaching in Montana under the Overseer Tom Lyness. Tom was an Irishman who professed in Ireland in 1902, entered the work in 1903, and came to Canada in 1905. In 1915, Tom was the first Worker who began preaching in Montana where he stayed until his death in 1970, age 87 years. Tom and his sister Annie are buried in Manhattan, Montana and share the same tombstone. (View Tombstone) Upon Tom's death in 1970, the field of Montana and Northern Wyoming were combined with Oregon/ Southern Idaho under the responsibility of Howard Mooney. In 1967, when Truitt had been in the work about three years, he and his companion, John, were overheard discussing the scripture. They were unaware that sister Worker (possibly Blanche Curtis) was also in the house until she came into the room where they were. She was very upset and did not agree with their interpretation. From childhood on, these three men had sat in gospel missions held by early Workers, such as Tom Lyness, his sister Annie, Nellie Williams, Vernon Myers and others. According to reliable sources, Truitt asserted they heard the doctrine the sister worker questioned preached by Tom Lyness and other early workers and that what the three men taught was no different; i.e. that Jesus was divine and could not sin.On the other hand, the sister Worker believed Jesus was human just like she was. Many but not all Friends and Workers believe that Jesus could have sinned and lost his salvation, but was only able to live a sinless life by the power of the Holy Spirit and suffering, self denial and by cutting off sinful thoughts and lust in his mind. This sister Worker became very determined that Truitt, Walter and John would be put out of the work and she eventually succeeded. They were accused of believing and teaching “false doctrine” also called “divisive doctrine.” Their alleged beliefs came to be commonly known as “Truitt’s Doctrine,” but few knew exactly what that doctrine really entailed. Truitt’s Doctrine was reported to have been some or all of the following: that Jesus was divine, that Jesus could not be tempted to sin, that Jesus was God, the doctrine of “Original Sin” related to the doctrine of “The Fall,” and perhaps more. Their beliefs will be discussed more fully below. In or about 1967, when John had been in the work for about 13 years, Walter for about 5-6 years, and Truitt for about 3 years, a tribunal meeting was called which culminated in the three men being dismissed from the work. Paul Abenroth was present in this meeting and provided this description: “Three or four of us young bucks happened to be included in a meeting in about 1967 in the house at Olympia, Washington Convention when a number of Workers met with the two Oyler boys and John Starkweather regarding their doctrinal understanding. In attendance were Willie Jamieson, Tharold Sylvester, Howard Mooney, Ernest Nelson, Charlie Krub, Bob Ingram, Ralph Sines, Dennis Jacobsen, Scott Vail, Margaret Robertson, Blanche Curtis and some others. (Note: the first four men were the Overseers of California, Washington, Oregon and Western Canada, respectively) No hymns were sung, no prayers offered -- mainly statements of accusation and warnings against the two Oylers and John. You can rest assured that us younger ones went away with a clear understanding of what we might be in for if we in any way sympathized with the views held by the three fellows who were the subject of the meeting that day. I will highlight two or three points... ONE: It must be understood from the outset that the Friends and Workers do not teach or possibly even understand the orthodox Christian concept of the Fall. It all starts from there. Since these three did teach the Fall, they were at odds with the Friends and Workers right from the start. TWO: Accompanying the orthodox concept of the Fall is the orthodox teaching that Jesus assumed a pre-fall human nature that was perfect and sinless just as Adam was perfect and sinless before the Fall, and further, that given His person and nature as the Son of God he could not sin. This also put them at odds with the Friends and Workers. The Friends and Workers always misunderstood this. When they heard those men say that Jesus could not sin, they interpreted that as meaning he did not have a human nature. The only human nature the Friends ever knew about was a sinful one. Many could not grasp that the orthodox teaching was that the Pre-fall human nature of Adam was also sinless. THREE: The Workers rejected the idea of a Fall, claiming that a Fall would have required God to change his mind and send Jesus as an afterthought, not according to his original plan. Tharold used to flatly state, ‘Adam's sin was not a Fall, but rather an expose.’ FOUR: The bottom line was that word got around that these things the men were teaching were taught by the Catholic Church. For the Workers that settled it. They could not have any Catholic teaching among them. [NOTE: I do not warrant that I have represented them 100% accurately, but only that this is my understanding after many visits with them.] The Workers did not disclose to the men the nature of their offenses, other than to say that they were causing division through divisive doctrine they taught. The Overseers claimed they had some private incriminating papers, but it was not anything the men had written. They were convicted on hearsay. Sometime after the meeting Truitt was sent to Washington and John to California. Not long after, all three men were expelled from the work for teaching “divisive doctrine.”About five years later in, perhaps in 1973, both John and Truitt signed letters agreeing not to teach their "divisive doctrine." John and Truitt were reinstated in the work and sent to other fields. Walter did not return to the work. John was sent to Texas in 1973 where Hubert Childers was the Overseer; and Truitt went to Alaska in 1974 where Bob Ingram was the Overseer. Both men were highly regarded in their new fields and were soon given more responsibility. John became Overseer of Louisiana in 1978 and then Overseer of Texas from 1983 to 1986. Truitt became a senior brother Worker in Alaska.After he was reinstated in the work, Truitt was admonished over the years several times by Workers for continuing to teach his doctrine. After a meeting held in Seattle in October, 1989, Truitt was sent to Alberta, Canada to be with Willis Propp: "We were also disappointed to hear that there is a division in the ministry caused by a few of the Alaska Workers bringing into Washington the influence of the doctrine that Truitt has been teaching in Alaska. This type of division has previously been evident in other areas where Truitt has labored. We had a long visit with Truitt in hope that he would see the damage that had been done. It has been decided that Truitt would go to Alberta with Willis Propp in hope that he could help him see where his doctrine has been in error" (Oct. 3, 1989 letter to Our dear Alaska Friends signed by Tharold Sylvester, Eldon Tenniswood, Ernest Nelson, Howard Mooney). In April, 1990, Truitt was told he must “step aside” from the ministry for teaching “divisive doctrine.” He was about 44 years old. Truitt’s name was on a Workers list for the last time on the first 1989-1990 Alaska Workers List. The revised November, 1989-1990 Alaska Workers List did not include the names of Truitt or Bob Ingram. The following statement was prepared listing the reasons and conditions: www.tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/montana.phpNathanB: Even in his last days on earth 2/2020 Dennis J. has showed us his love for God is still going very strong in his heart and mind. May the Lord God/Christ Jesus grant Dennis peace and a place in His eternal kingdom. He has a very clear understanding of the Godhead, Jesus is God/Yashua= Salvation.
~~ Greg L. (ex-worker 1990s) wrote: I cannot recall anyone preaching on God the Son. The closest I heard was one who said Jesus is to God as a bottle of ocean water is to the ocean. As I have stated before, I think if George Walker believed in God the Son he kept it out of his preaching and perhaps rarely shared such with any. As big an impact as he had, if he preached it, others would be preaching the same. The Triune God might be foundational for Christian churches, but it is not for the F&W; fellowship. ~~ Dennis Jacobsen. (ex-worker in 1960s) wrote: Hello Greg. According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God. According to reports I have heard he did teach this in sermons. And no, I had no reason upon hearing it to document it for it is specifically what Jack Carroll and many others taught and believed. Somewhere in my records once was a copy of Jack's sermon notes, where proof was found of his preaching God to exist as Father Son and Holy Ghost. In every mission from my first, I would point to Jesus as the Word and He existed from the moment GOD first "spoke" later becoming the word made flesh. NEVER ONCE was I corrected for teaching that. NOT ONCE. Also I taught over simplifying there is the Divine Kingdom, Angelic/spirit/demon kingdom, human kingdom, that God Son became human Son of God. Never corrected for that neither though having "Gospel meetings" with about 14 assigned companions, in various states and a couple of countries.NathanB, sir. On this topic, from what you have expressed, I find myself totally in agreement from nearly 72 years (+ circa 40 due to heritage). Greg, sir. More than "likely so." It came as a shock to me to discover 2&2 preachers and their followers anywhere did not believe as I had been taught, and indeed was one of the things I had to re-examine upon my excommunication. My early contacts and instructors in 2&2 ism simply did believe as Nathan expresses, and many of their names were on the first group of workers listing. (William Irvine, Eddy Cooney, John Long, George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.)Do I accept others came along, not believing it? Most absolutely. Do I believe it unfair to state Nathan to be in error regarding it? Equally most absolutely. On this understanding of the nature and personality of God, a supreme being (to me anyway) I once had a copy of Jack Carroll's sermon notes, revealing to me he believed on this subject as Nathan expresses. I knew Tom Lyness believed this, I knew Willie Wier believed this, I knew Mable Gibson believed and taught it.
Its seems that once again you are twisting things nathan !!! Thankfully CherieKropp has noted your "twisting" !
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 2, 2020 23:17:53 GMT -5
1) Fixit: Them? How can you say "them" and claim to be a monotheist? Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’2) NathanB: The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is BOTH Mono/Singular= El and Plural= Elohim. Monotheist when God the Father is speaking by Himself! or the Christ is Speaking by Himself and the Holy Spirit speaking also by Himself. Plural when three of them are together for an example in Genesis 1. Who is the "us" when God stated "Let us make man in our image"? Genesis 1:26. ESV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 11:7 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Another example of nathan 's self promotion !! Seems Nathan holds himself in higher regard then the bible itself.
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 2, 2020 23:20:39 GMT -5
1) Fixit: Them? How can you say "them" and claim to be a monotheist? Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. 30 And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’2) NathanB: The Godhead= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit is BOTH Mono/Singular= El and Plural= Elohim. Monotheist when God the Father is speaking by Himself! or the Christ is Speaking by Himself and the Holy Spirit speaking also by Himself. Plural when three of them are together for an example in Genesis 1. Who is the "us" when God stated "Let us make man in our image"? Genesis 1:26. ESV - 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 11:7 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Again, you are wrong about Elohim being used in plural form when in reference to Israel. Seems like only Christians don’t know this unless of cause they are a Christian scholar, in which case they will certainly disagree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 23:21:41 GMT -5
Another example of nathan 's self promotion !! Seems Nathan holds himself in higher regard then the bible itself. ummm which part of that post does he hold himself in more regard that the bible? confused yet curious....
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 2, 2020 23:30:18 GMT -5
Seems Nathan holds himself in higher regard then the bible itself. ummm which part of that post does he hold himself in more regard that the bible? confused yet curious.... Ummmm maybe the section in red where he quotes himself.. ya know, making his own view the centerpiece surrounded by bible verse.
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 3, 2020 0:23:56 GMT -5
According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God.
He didn't look hard enough. Should have went all the way and looked for a four leaf clover.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 0:25:14 GMT -5
ummm which part of that post does he hold himself in more regard that the bible? confused yet curious.... Ummmm maybe the section in red where he quotes himself.. ya know, making his own view the centerpiece surrounded by bible verse. a few people do that on here to separate what they are saying VS what they are quoting...
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 3, 2020 0:30:32 GMT -5
Ummmm maybe the section in red where he quotes himself.. ya know, making his own view the centerpiece surrounded by bible verse. a few people do that on here to separate what they are saying VS what they are quoting... Fair enough, makes sense.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 3, 2020 4:09:25 GMT -5
According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God.
He didn't look hard enough. Should have went all the way and looked for a four leaf clover. It's the four leaf clover that is brings good luck! Maybe the four leaf clover is the one that would represent the Mother, -since she is certainly missing in the "trinity" of the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
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Post by nathan on Mar 3, 2020 10:39:08 GMT -5
He didn't look hard enough. Should have went all the way and looked for a four leaf clover. It's the four leaf clover that is brings good luck! Maybe the four leaf clover is the one that would represent the Mother, -since she is certainly missing in the "trinity" of the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." The Bible teaches ONLY 3= Father, Christ and Holy Spirit NOT 4. I John 5:7-8 7 For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are one in agreement. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Jesus Christ speak ONLY 3 God the Father, Himself Christ the Son/God and Holy Spirit/God in John chapters 13-17. So, I don't know where you people come up with the 4th?
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Post by snow on Mar 3, 2020 14:18:07 GMT -5
He didn't look hard enough. Should have went all the way and looked for a four leaf clover. It's the four leaf clover that is brings good luck! Maybe the four leaf clover is the one that would represent the Mother, -since she is certainly missing in the "trinity" of the "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." The female is only necessary to be a scapegoat. Otherwise she holds no value. Well maybe that's not quite right, she does seem to be valued as an incubator!
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Post by nathan on Mar 4, 2020 0:43:34 GMT -5
Mar 3, 2020 nathanB said: ** Peter and Paul wrote about Christ's Spirit went to Hades after death to set FREE the Old Testament believers who are stuck in that place/paradise realm of the dead where all souls must go because of sins. Jesus had paid the ransom price for us in FULL to God the Father on Calvary's so Satan is no longer able to hold the New Testament souls in Hades after death. After death our souls/spirits go directly to heaven to be with Christ and God the Father. Jesus death opened the door of heaven for ALL Old and New Testament to ENTER. Read Luke 16 May the Lord God Jesus Christ opens your understanding and wisdom.
2) Believingin Jesus wrote: These three sources (and more) disagree: www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/did-jesus-go-to-hell-faq.htmwww.oneplace.com/ministries/bible-answer-man/read/articles/did-jesus-go-to-hell-by-hank-hanegraaff-17705.htmlwww.christianity.com/jesus/death-and-resurrection/the-crucifixion/did-jesus-descend-into-hell.htmlThey distinguish between hades (a place of the dead) and hell. NathanB: Paul wrote in Ephesians 4:8–10 (ESV) 8 Therefore it says, “When he/Jesus ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above. 1 Peter 3:18–20 (ESV) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey…when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, teight persons, were brought safely through water. For example, the Apostles’ Creed affirmed belief in Jesus on the following terms: “Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and buried; He descended into hell, the third day He rose again from the dead” (emp. added). The Athanasian Creed states: “He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead” (emp. added). “Church Fathers” and Reformers toyed with this viewpoint. John Calvin, in his voluminous Institutes of the Christian Religion, treated the subject at length (1599, II.16.8-12). Calvin cited earlier theologians who agreed with him, including Hilary in his On the Trinity (IV.xlii; III.xv). The renowned medieval Catholic theologian, Thomas Aquinas, held a similar view (Summa Theol. III. 52. 5). The apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus, which dates from the fifth century A.D., claims that Jesus descended into hell and retrieved all the Old Testament saints, including Adam, David, Habakkuk, and Isaiah (see James, 1924, pp. 125ff.). Further impetus for confusion was generated by the English translations of the 16th and 17th centuries, due to translator confusion regarding the technical distinctions that exist between the pertinent Greek terms. Specifically, the Greek term hades generally was equated with gehenna. Hades refers to the intermediate state of the dead (disembodied spirits) who are awaiting the Judgment. Gehenna, on the other hand, refers to the location of the final state of the wicked after the Judgment. This confusion culminated in the King James Version’s rendering of hades as “hell” in all ten of its occurrences in the New Testament (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14). Rendering hades as “hell” in Acts 2:27,31 leaves the reader with the impression that when Jesus exited His physical body on the cross, He went to hell. The first English translation to maintain the distinction between hades and gehenna was the English Revised Version and its subsequent American counterpart, the American Standard Version of 1901 (Lewis, 1981, p. 64).
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Post by nathan on Mar 4, 2020 9:49:38 GMT -5
Mar 4, 2020 openingact34 said: This is the same argument that the exes and worldlings use to attack the homeless 2x2 ministry, claiming that it was only temporary instructions for a short time. If Jesus was all he was cracked up to be, don't you think he would have been smart enough to add an expiration date to his temporary instructions? Instead, you are quoting a man-made doctrine that you can't even spell that developed 16 centuries after Christ. 1) Mountain wrote: Well here Jesus certainly brings a halt to signs regarding his Messiahship. The change from the OT law which was for the Jews to the age of grace for the Christian church was not an immediate circumstance but required a transitional period, perhaps due to the more primitave nature of the era. Paul may well have been chosen to deal with this as he often had to deal with issues between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. A kind of running down period for the Jews if you like. Bear in mind communications were slow back then. Matthew 16.4 “A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.” 3) NathanB: Amen. Jesus and the Bible tells us Satan will give his religious followers/false preachers, pastors with powers, to show signs, miracles, healing to deceive people on earth thinking worshipping to him as god. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-2321 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Rev. 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Paul wrote in II Thess 2: 1-12 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
professing.proboards.com/thread/29584/workers-serpents-meetings?page=1&scrollTo=888862
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Post by nathan on Mar 6, 2020 0:49:30 GMT -5
1) Someone wrote: I’m not sure whether his followers thought he was god during his own lifetime, I’m most certain his followers only came to believe Jesus was god after his life and death.. then again I can only speak from a historical perspective because I’m not am Christian..
2) STR wrote: Luke 5:8.-11 They cast out as Jesus said. Had fished all night and no catch. They caught a multitude of fishes so that their net brake. Called their partners filled them that both ships begin to sink. Verse 7: When Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’s knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. He knew he was in the presence of God. His partners saw and were astonished also. Then they forsook their ships and followed him. When they were out on the sea again and the storms and winds nearly sank them. They awakened Jesus and he rebuked the winds and sea. They knew that only God controlled the wind and sea.
NathanB: Amen, Many knew Jesus was God and Lord/Yahweh and worship him while he was alive before his death.
1) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29. Jesus did NOT say don't call me Lord and God but accepted the title which Thomas called Him.
2) Mary the mother of Jesus said about the unborn Son in Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."
Matthew 8:2 notes a healed leper who worshipped Jesus. Later, a ruler knelt before Jesus after He had healed his Son. Matthew 9:18 states, "A ruler came in and knelt before him."
The disciples worshipped Jesus after He walked on water. Matthew 14:33 shares, "Those in the boat worshipped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'"
A Canaanite woman worshipped Jesus. Matthew 15:25 notes, "she came and knelt before him, saying, 'Lord, help me.'" The mother of James and John also knelt in worship before Jesus. Matthew 20:20 shares, "Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something."
Mark 5:6 describes a man worshiping Jesus who was tormented by evil spirits. We read, "when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him."
A healed blind man worshipped Jesus. John 9:38 states, "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshipped him."
Those who argue Jesus was not worshipped as divine until later times such as at the Council of Nicea 3rd century disregard the clear facts provided in Scripture. Those who interacted with Jesus, including His disciples, worshipped Him as Lord even during His time on earth.
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Post by ant_rotten on Mar 6, 2020 9:24:43 GMT -5
1) Someone wrote: I’m not sure whether his followers thought he was god during his own lifetime, I’m most certain his followers only came to believe Jesus was god after his life and death.. then again I can only speak from a historical perspective because I’m not am Christian.. 2) STR wrote: Luke 5:8.-11 They cast out as Jesus said. Had fished all night and no catch. They caught a multitude of fishes so that their net brake. Called their partners filled them that both ships begin to sink. Verse 7: When Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’s knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. He knew he was in the presence of God. His partners saw and were astonished also. Then they forsook their ships and followed him. When they were out on the sea again and the storms and winds nearly sank them. They awakened Jesus and he rebuked the winds and sea. They knew that only God controlled the wind and sea. NathanB: Amen, Many knew Jesus was God and Lord/Yahweh and worship him while he was alive before his death.
1) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29. Jesus did NOT say don't call me Lord and God but accepted the title which Thomas called Him. 2) Mary the mother of Jesus said about the unborn Son in Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."
Matthew 8:2 notes a healed leper who worshipped Jesus. Later, a ruler knelt before Jesus after He had healed his Son. Matthew 9:18 states, "A ruler came in and knelt before him."The disciples worshipped Jesus after He walked on water. Matthew 14:33 shares, "Those in the boat worshipped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'"A Canaanite woman worshipped Jesus. Matthew 15:25 notes, "she came and knelt before him, saying, 'Lord, help me.'" The mother of James and John also knelt in worship before Jesus. Matthew 20:20 shares, "Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came up to him with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something." Mark 5:6 describes a man worshiping Jesus who was tormented by evil spirits. We read, "when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and fell down before him." A healed blind man worshipped Jesus. John 9:38 states, "He said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshipped him."Those who argue Jesus was not worshipped as divine until later times such as at the Council of Nicea 3rd century disregard the clear facts provided in Scripture. Those who interacted with Jesus, including His disciples, worshipped Him as Lord even during His time on earth.
That no.1 point is what I said. And I’ll say it again.. Jesus followers did not understand him to be anything but a human while he was alive. Only after his death did they have a sense that Jesus had became apart of the divine realm, that he was god. You also can’t claim theological points of the bible to be “facts”. It just doesn’t work that way. There is nothing factual about theology no matter how much you personally want it to be the truth. You will never see the bible from a historical perspective because you are unable to suspend your own theological beliefs or disbelief in its teachings.
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