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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 19, 2017 9:59:30 GMT -5
Nate, I have not seen a copy of this letter, and I'd like to read it, and also post it on TTT. I have G. Walker's 1942 letter to Selective Service, but it doesnt mention Wm Irvine or the Faith Mission, does not give dates of 1898-1900, and GW wrote it: "for the purpose of enabling the Local Draft Boards to correctly classify Ministers of this Church throughout the United States who are subject to the Selective Service Laws" (not to help the professing men). Nate, I would greatly appreciate it if you could email a scanned copy of this other letter you say you have to: truth@tellingthetruth.info so I can make it available to everyone. Thanx, CK 1942 Letter image: www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=1195 (click next to see pages 2 and 3) 1942 Letter transcript: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/walkergeo.php#SelectiveExcerpt: "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament, i.e., "two by two" and without salary or making appeals for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the Kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment "would be added to them". "As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gatherings together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primarily because it is scriptural, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian era met regularly for worship in homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history. Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore no church property or real estate has been acquired by purchase or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under a denominational name has not been necessary. The meetings continue to the present time in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders. Baptism by immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced." |
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Post by nathan on Aug 19, 2017 19:07:21 GMT -5
Nate, I have not seen a copy of this letter, and I'd like to read it, and also post it on TTT. I have G. Walker's 1942 letter to Selective Service, but it doesnt mention Wm Irvine or the Faith Mission, does not give dates of 1898-1900, and GW wrote it: "for the purpose of enabling the Local Draft Boards to correctly classify Ministers of this Church throughout the United States who are subject to the Selective Service Laws" (not to help the professing men). Nate, I would greatly appreciate it if you could email a scanned copy of this other letter you say you have to: truth@tellingthetruth.info so I can make it available to everyone. Thanx, CK 1942 Letter image: www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=1195 (click next to see pages 2 and 3) 1942 Letter transcript: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/walkergeo.php#SelectiveExcerpt: "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament, i.e., "two by two" and without salary or making appeals for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the Kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment "would be added to them". "As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gatherings together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primarily because it is scriptural, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian era met regularly for worship in homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history. Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore no church property or real estate has been acquired by purchase or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under a denominational name has not been necessary. The meetings continue to the present time in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders. Baptism by immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced."
MANY of the MOST Amazing Revelation of who is Jesus the Christ? videos and teachings from a Christian Jew Amir Tsarfati. He has great understanding of who Christ Jesus is... The Christ/God of the Old Testament and Jesus the Son of Man and God. Amir T. will help increase your faith and wisdom the Godhead= God the Father, and Christ/God our Lord and Savior and Holy Spirit.
Posted by Grats:Amir Tsarfati: Jesus Christ the Immanuel. Immanue means with us and El is God.www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2e2m-iedF8&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=16&t=0s100 verses If You've Seen Me/Jesus You've Seen God The Father
www.openbible.info/topics/if_youve_seen_me_youve_seen_the_father Amir Tsarfati: Jesus the Christ in the Old Testamentwww.youtube.com/watch?v=bHf-keOlUHc&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=22&t=0sAmir Tsarfati: The Passover Lamb/Christ God in the Old Testament
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXbkJKQFovg&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=20&t=0sAmir Tsarfati: Jesus and the Christ in New Testament Passover Lamb of Godwww.youtube.com/watch?v=jWDUzjrU5iM&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=21&t=0sThe 18 Missing years of Jesus Christ...
Note that the information presented in this article is acquired from various sources - not strictly biblical manuscripts. The stories have been passed down through traditional documents and can not be proved as accurate. From history we learn that he was previously known as Joseph de Marmore as he lived in Marmorica in Egypt before he moved to Arimathea. There is speculation that Joseph of Arimathea, or Joseph of Glastonbury as he later became known, was the uncle of Mary, mother of Jesus. The relationship to Mary made him a Great Uncle of Jesus. From this, we may presume that he was an elderly man at the time of the crucifixion. We have few verifiable details about Joseph except that he was he was quite wealthy. Some claim that Joseph of Arimathea was a merchant in metals and took young Jesus with him on his business trips to England, India, and even to South America. It is a well documented fact that Britain led the world at this time with its tin mining. Joseph of Arimathea was referred to by the Romans as 'Nobilis Decurio' or Minister of Mines to the Roman Government. Joseph of Arimathea was not one of the original 12 apostles, but he was a disciple of Jesus and was an important man in his own right. He is mentioned in all four gospels (Matthew: 27:57-60; Mark 15:43-46; Luke 23:50-55; John 19:38-42). He was a high counselor, a voting member of the Sanhedrin2 which officially wanted Jesus condemned to death. We may speculate that he had not consented to, or agreed with, the decision to push Pontius Pilate to impose the death penalty upon Jesus. In spite of his relationship with Jesus, his loyalty to Him was largely kept secret (John 19:38). Jesus was obviously unpopular with the elders of the church, and to outwardly support Him did not bring favor in their eyes (John 19:38). www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/joseph-of-arimathea-faq.htmIsraeli Jew makes the most amazing discovery ( Jesus is the Messiah/God the Christ)!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=95XaL6_stBsAwesome Bible Lands Jerusalem where Jesus born and lived Unveiled
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWLFF5VZl4c4F-iJQQU2qSHu81zNZyu1LIsrael Unveiledwww.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWLFF5VZl4c6uVeLm-IMQ91D0DwS7rrqkMany Amazing of 19 Videos of Jordan river, the Red Sea, Sea of Galileewww.youtube.com/watch?v=f4QZjQcwClc&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c6uVeLm-IMQ91D0DwS7rrqk
Questions and Answers by Amir Tsarfati
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM8xETmA7vg&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c4-mIMLxLCK81G1mCmnmrBwAmir Tsarfati: The Book of Lifewww.youtube.com/watch?v=WnuNJ3m2UHY&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=17&t=0sAmir Tsarfati: The Fullness of the Gentileswww.youtube.com/watch?v=AHdm2bOfaR8&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=8&t=0sAmir Tsarfati: Seek Those Things Which are Above
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkcZ-246cCUAmir Tsarfati: Europe Ready for the Antichrist www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqK9fXsp92kAmir Tsarfati: The Prophetic Changes in the Middle East www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqdn5TbzwvsAmir Tsarfati: Why Should Christians Support Israel www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8pL_CR3rlYAmir Tsarfati: Bible Lands Unveiled Greece: The Unknown God www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_hDiS5_k84Bible Lands Unveiled: Turn the World Upside Down www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM8XxG9qAy4Amir Tsarfati: Europe Closer to the Antichrist www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvlH3l563SQAmir Tsarfati: Europe Ready for the Antichrist www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqK9fXsp92kAmir Tsarfati: Who Goes Where? www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBu3I9TOLZEAmir Tsarfati: Fear Not!www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kbfLkhKNzIAmir Tsarfati: Has God Cast Away His People?www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPe3b7PaxfEAmir Tsarfati: On the Road, But Off the Pathwww.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-2Iw7kE54Amir Tsarfati: The Book of Revelationwww.youtube.com/watch?v=I3GuG1dYARMThe Rise of The One World Religionwww.youtube.com/watch?v=s6FWHjH5fHAAmir Tsarfati: The Great Collusionwww.youtube.com/watch?v=fLzU0RqkiOsAmir Tsarfati: How Close are we to the Mark of the Beastwww.youtube.com/watch?v=6C-6ZvMgi_MAmir Tsarfati: The Illuminati= Luciferians/Satanists and the One World Government. Their agenda is to reduce the world population from 7 Billions people down to 500 millions people through wars, pollution, cancers, deadly viruses, and so on listen at 46 min. at the below video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tft9T32BNgcAmir Tsarfati: The Satanic Plot to Reduce Earth's Population www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpPcgKaJ_E4Amir T. tried to WARN the WORLD on the seriousness and deadliest about to spread to the whole world from Corona Virus back in Feb.11... But they told him it was FAKE news! We wish the world had taken his information on the Corona Virus seriously back in Feb! It could have saved hundreds thousands of lives from suffering horrible pains and suffering around the world. This Virus could have come from U.S... listen... Amir has proven to be right on target... millions people are going to die listen at 37 min. of the below video. Many deadly flu Viruses will kill millions for years to come. Amir Tsarfati: Special Update: Explosion Coronavirus in Wuhan, China. 259,723 views• Feb 11, 2020www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQjMtdeknPEOver 10,000 people have died around the world! and 350,000 plus people are infected by Corona Virus and still counting by 4/6/1920
Amir Tsarfati: A Few Good Things the Coronavirus has Caused. Very comfort video... Put your faith in God and NOT in this world wealth and riches.
65,950 views• Apr 5, 2020
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-TFwJsQaOQ
~~ Dr. Francis Boyle - Coronavirus is a Bioweapon 2/26/20. Many deadly viruses are man-made in the lab. CDC and Pharm. companies are in business with them to come up with the vaccines to make trillions of dollars from the population and Population control/Thinning the herd. Must listen! 22 minutes.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVtlknjTgXk
~~ Inside The US Government's Top-Secret Bioweapons Lab. It's an eye opener! history of these labs. It's an eye opener! history of these labs.
1,180,621 views• Oct 4, 2019
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1GnYs4LOc0
To search For topics related to the U.S. biological defense program, see U.S. biological defense program. The United States had an offensive biological weapons program from 1943 until 1969. Today, the nation is a member of the Biological Weapons Convention and has renounced biological warfare.
Agencies and organizations[edit]
Military and government agencies and schools[edit]
United States Army Biological Warfare Laboratories (USBWL)
United States Army Chemical Corps
War Bureau of Consultants
War Research Service
Biological weapons program locations[edit]
United States biological weapons program
Dugway Proving Ground
Granite Peak Range
Edgewood Arsenal
Fort Detrick and the U.S. Army Biological Warfare Laboratories
Fort Douglas, Utah
Fort Terry/Plum Island Animal Disease Center
Horn Island Testing Station
Pine Bluff Arsenal
Rocky Mountain Arsenal
Vigo Ordnance Plant
Weaponized biological agents[edit]anthrax, caused by Bacillus anthracis
Ames strain
tularemia, caused by Francisella tularensis
brucellosis, caused by Brucella suis
Q-fever, caused by Coxiella burnetii
botulism
Stem rust, both wheat and rye stem rust, fungal anticrop agent
Rice blast, fungal anticrop agent
Researched biological agents[edit]
Argentinian hemorrhagic fever (AHF)
Bird flu
Bolivian hemorrhagic fever (BHF)
Chikungunya virus (CHIKV)
Dengue fever
Hantavirus
Lassa fever
Newcastle disease
Plague
Smallpox
Ricin (technically a chemical weapon)
Rift Valley fever (RVF)
Typhus
Yellow fever
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._biological_weapons_topics
Biological warfare (BW)—also known as germ warfare—is the use of biological toxins or infectious agents such as bacteria, viruses, insects, and fungi with the intent to kill or incapacitate humans, animals or plants as an act of war. Biological weapons (often termed "bio-weapons", "biological threat agents", or "bio-agents") are living organisms or replicating entities (viruses, which are not universally considered "alive"). Entomological (insect) warfare is a subtype of BW.
Biological warfare is distinct from nuclear warfare and chemical warfare, which together with biological warfare make up NBC, the military initialism for nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare using weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). None of these are considered conventional weapons, which are deployed primarily for their explosive, kinetic, or incendiary potential.
Biological weapons may be employed in various ways to gain a strategic or tactical advantage over the enemy, either by threats or by actual deployments. Like some chemical weapons, biological weapons may also be useful as area denial weapons. These agents may be lethal or non-lethal, and may be targeted against a single individual, a group of people, or even an entire population.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_warfare
Coronavirus is a Biowarfare Weapon Developed by The US - Law Professor Claims
Published February 5th, 2020
www.albawaba.com/news/coronavirus-biowarfare-weapon-developed-us-law-professor-claims-1337158
Evidence that coronavirus originated at Chinese lab is 'inconclusive,' top general says
The top U.S. general said evidence that the coronavirus originated at a Chinese research lab is "inconclusive," following a report that U.S. officials warned of safety concerns at a research facility in the city of Wuhan two years ago.
"We've had a lot of intelligence take a hard look at that," Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley told reporters today. "At this point it's inconclusive, although the weight of the evidence seems to indicate natural. But we don’t know for certain."
www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/evidence-that-coronavirus-originated-at-chinese-lab-is-inconclusive-top-general-says/ar-BB12DazR?ocid=spartanntp
3/20/2020
A Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman on Thursday accused the U.S. Army of sending the coronavirus to China, a charge expected to be countered by the Trump administration as disinformation.
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/12/us-army-brought-coronavirus-wuhan-chinese-foreign-/
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — Iran’s supreme leader refused U.S. assistance Sunday to fight the new coronavirus, citing an unfounded conspiracy theory that the virus could be man-made by America.
www.politico.com/news/2020/03/22/coronavirus-iran-conspiracy-theory-141188
Director of Wuhan lab denies virus link: The director of a maximum-security laboratory in China's coronavirus ground-zero city of Wuhan has rejected claims that it could be the source of the outbreak, calling it "impossible".
www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/director-of-wuhan-lab-denies-virus-link/ar-BB12QKwl?ocid=spartanntp
Amir Tsarfati: Evil. The Absence of God
What did the world look like beginning in the Garden of Eden and what will it look like in the future? Is evil connected to God? How does evil relate to believers in Christ? Is there a purpose for evil? Though this message was originally delivered a few years ago in the Philippines during the rise of the Islamic State (ISIS)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkdIWkhtxw
“Revelation’s Mark of the Beast Exposed” - with Evangelist Mark Finley
Some people are so afraid of it they try to avoid having a Social Security number. Others worry about the bar codes scanned at check-out stands—what could be behind it all?
3,082,044 views• Jun 4, 2018
This evangelist has a VERY good understanding who is the BEAST/A Roman Empire political power system over many nations = In the 4th century it became the Roman Catholic Church political and religious system rule over 1 Billions of believers around the world.
666= Title of the Roman emperors who later became Papacy/Pope. The 666 number of a man/ruler of religious political and religious system over the billions of people. Mark of the beast/666 on their hands and foreheads.
The seal the servants of God and his people had seal of God in their forehead/minds/worship through Jesus Christ gospel. He is off on about the Sabbath keepers as the seal of God people. Mike Finley is a Seventh Day Adventist. He got the beast/666= Rome+RCC empire political and religious system over the sea of humanity/1 billions people are correct.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvTL_lnN5-Q&feature=emb_rel_end
Warnings of the Last Days From God | Christian Short Film "The Days of Noah Have Come"
1,683,843 views•Jul 5, 2017
Here are the WAKE up signs! the last 15 years.... Here are the WAKE up signs! the last 15 years.... listen to a TRUE story happened in 2008 a horrific great disaster at 14 min. the modern day one of the most beautiful city of Sodom and Gomorrah in China destroyed twice with and earthquake and the next year wit a great flood within two years! Warning this will take place when Jesus returns like in the days of Noah great world wide flood.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0uyh2IH72w
Read Genesis chapters 17-19 on the Destruction of sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
From the Dead Sea Scroll #3 Cave #3 "The Lord (Elohim) instructed his Angels, both from the Morning and Evening Star/Venus Planet, to assist Lot and his family to escape what was to befall the Cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Two Chosen ones/angels instructed Lot and his family to drape themselves in white Garments (fine linen) and run away from the cities with great haste. Then a voice came from the darkening skies from on high and the other Heavenly Messengers, also from the Morning and Evening Star who rode in their chariots of fire saying unto all of them below, "Make haste because the judgment of Almighty God is about to fall upon these cities. We are prepared to obey His Voice and point our fire-spears towards the cities of sin and destroy them according to the Divine Will of the Father. Then a white light as bright as the sun blazed behind them and the Earth did shake with a mighty roar. The elements did separate as the cities of sin were leveled to the ground. The air above the Earth was filled with destructive dust and everyone including the animals. "The smoke rose into the heaven and did cloak the ground with destruction.
Thus, the messengers, from the Stars did likewise accomplish their mission as their wheels returned to the skies where they rested with others in their home which was high above the Earth." "She who was the wife of Lot, because of her disobedience, did turn around and gaze upon the destruction. She was turned into what appeared to be the salt of the land and the deadly destructive dust that clung over the Earth did indeed cause her life to cease. The smoke and vapor from the cities rose higher and higher as the cities were laid waste in the wilderness on the plains of Zoar that morning."
Amir Tsarfati: The Coming Prince Christ/God 1st coming to earth as a man Jesus
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZNNGcWjQE
Where is the Promise of Jesus Christ coming? Amazing!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=niyhP0fFz8o&list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb&index=23
Amir Tsarfati: The Day Approaching www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQdCP1suihY Amir Tsarfati: The Second Coming of Jesus as the Christ King of kings to rule the earth www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NXzhMjIUMMAmir Tsarfati: The Millennial Kingdom.
Humans believers appear to receive the rewards/responsibilities before the judgment seat of Christ/Jesus during the 1000 yrs reign www.youtube.com/watch?v=scoG0YrgWbs87 more interesting amazing videos topics from Amir Tsarfati
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWLFF5VZl4c7iEtzXu3koZ7dFC-Kh9VHb |
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 7:59:44 GMT -5
Aug 20, 2017 searcher said: Can someone please tell me: If Matthew 10 is THE model of the 2x2 ministry, (which makes it "the Truth") how exactly are the workers fitting into that?
By going only to the house of Israel? Healing the sick? Cleansing lepers? Raising the dead? Casting out demons? Having no money at their disposal? No extra clothing? Staying in the same place while in a city? ie: going not from house to house
Eating what is provided? ie: no special anything
~~ Nathan wrote: Matthew 10 is NOT model for the 2x2 workers Gentiles ministry to follow but those instructions can be very helpful for the 2x2 workers to pay attention and learn from ... Jesus was given the 12 apostles and 72 apostles in Luke 10 instruction how they were to travel when they bring the good news to the Jews. They were to travel light for their journey provide neither gold or silver, neither two coats, or extra sandals, extra food belts on them...
Have faith in God, He will provide all of their needs through their followers. Jesus said in Matthew 6:25-33 " Do NOT worry about food, clothes, and drinks... Behold the birds of the air for they sow not, neither do they reap, yet your heavenly Father feed them. Are you NOT valuable than the birds? If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."
The friends have provided food, clothes, money, and homes for the workers to stay, so they don't need to worry about these things like Jesus has promised that God will take care of these things so they can seek first the kingdom of God.
~~ In the Old Testament God had promised when the Messiah came, he would be like unto Moses, he will perform many miracles to show them proof, that He was sent from God just like God had sent Moses, who performed and showed the children of Israel many miracles, the 10 plagues on the Egyptians (Acts 3:22-26).
So, healing, miracles, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers were necessary for Jesus and the Jewish apostles to show to the Jews during those days and time, they were sent by God just like Moses. God can heal people today but perform and showing miracles were NOT promised to the Gentiles apostles.
In 1928 Edward Cooney (1901 2x2 worker) tried to heal one of the friends in front of the overseer and many workers just like the 12 apostles in Matthew 10 but he failed, and eventually he was excommunicate from the ministry and fellowship.
When people taken the scriptures out of context, or Don't understand what it's written, he or she can get into a lot of trouble. Like handle poisonous snakes without getting harm, a few pastors and Christians have died from using poisonous snakes in their worship services because of (Mark 16:17-18)
~~ Jesus told the 12 and 72 apostles go NOT to the Gentiles at this time! because it was foretold in the Old Testament (Acts 3:26) that God would give the Jews the FIRST opportunity in hearing the gospel or the Good News then the Gentiles receive it later in (Acts 11: 46-48). Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.” When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit appointed Paul, Barnabas, Silas, John Mark, Timothy, and many others to be the ambassadors to bring the good news to the Gentiles... And the 12 and 72 apostles were to preach and labor mostly among the Jews in Jerusalem and scattered around the world. (Gal. 2:7-9)
~~ Jesus instruction to the 12 Jewish apostles Staying in one place and Go NOT from house to house. To understand this portion of the scriptures, we must know the custom in those days, when a stranger/s come to a village the people in town must show hospitality by inviting them into their homes, providing foods, and place to stay over nights. People in town were to take turn to welcome these strangers to stay in their homes.
These 12 and 72 apostles were on an urgent mission from Jesus and he didn't want them to take too long of a time, going from house to house eating, drinking, chatting away with useless talks... They must stay in One home and deliver the message the Messiah has come then move on to the NEXT town.
We read in the book of Acts Peter, Paul and his co-workers stayed different homes of Jews and Gentiles believers in their traveling and missions.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 8:14:23 GMT -5
1) 8/16/2017
Review/Worker said: Well I ABSOLUTELY agree with you. "Could not have possibly went all the way back to the the original disciples of Jesus!" Our first workers and friends around the turning of the 20th century came out of other denominations in which they have been disillusioned and unfulfilled. They don't have a line going back to the beginning. They sought in courage and faith to go back to that which was in the beginning. I'm today grateful for those men and women.
~~ Nathan: My questions to review.... So, what happened to billions of men and women lives who lived before William Irvine became 2x2 worker in 1898? Did they all go to a lost eternity because there were no 2x2 worker existed in 1987 for them to hear the gospel and profess.
Can you explain the 1800 years gap? from the 1st century apostles to William Irvine 1898 and When did the 1st century church disappear from the face of the earth?
So, you THINK God wait and wait 1700 years to revive Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and New Testament fellowship through William Irvine and the 2x2 early workers in 1898-1902? I'd like to know and hear about the gap theory according to your post.
Jesus said to Peter and the 11 apostles, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church! and the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come... Acts 1:8 Jesus said this, " But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
So, did Jesus our Lord God and Savior LIE and teach things falsely to the 12 apostles, to all his followers and to us when he spoke these words 2000 yrs ago, Review? Who should the friends believe Jesus own words and prophecies or the workers who believe like you do?
2) enuf said: As Alistair said, the church that Jesus started which is Christianity has always been there since Jesus day. The fact that the workers have only been there since the late 1900s shows it is not the true apostolic church. Like all churches they are a break away from a breakaway which like every church can trace a line back to Jesus. The door is Jesus, Nathan not a particular denomination. The apostolic origin is Jesus.
~~ Nathan: What you are saying is true, every denomination traces their roots back to Jesus, then WHY the exes are going CRAZY! And RILED UP! When the workers teach and preach the 2x2 goes back to to the shores of Galilee= Jesus?
Paul had warned in Acts 19 about some church elders, false apostles departed from them and formed there own Christianity. By the end of the 1st century there were 100s of groups departed from the original group.
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 10:53:57 GMT -5
You forgot to add this onto the end of the post, Nathan.
.
The workers preach that their church goes back to the shores of Galilee which it does not.
People, including your worker Review says no, it was started by men at the end of 1900.
Agree it was crazy to try and make people think their church went back to Jesus when one day it would be found out it was not true. It is crazy that with all the evidence to the contrary some people are still believing this.
Yes it tells us there will be some who will be false teachers and depart from the Faith. Maybe yout think that anyone who starts their own church is departing from the Faith. William Irvine and those who joined him fit this description.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 11:00:52 GMT -5
You forgot to add this onto the end of the post, Nathan. The workers preach that their church goes back to the shores of Galilee which it does not.People, including your worker Review says no, it was started by men at the end of 1900. Agree it was crazy to try and make people think their church went back to Jesus when one day it would be found out it was not true. It is crazy that with all the evidence to the contrary some people are still believing this. Yes it tells us there will be some who will be false teachers and depart from the Faith. Maybe yout think that anyone who starts their own church is departing from the Faith. William Irvine and those who joined him fit this description.
~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45)
Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45)
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board."Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Anyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness.
So, this is from Wiki----
It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement
Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!)I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine.
As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 13:54:42 GMT -5
You have just confirmed that William Irvine started the workers church, Christian convention church or 2x2s. Call it whatever name you want. They were never part of the Waldensians, and broke away from the Faith Mission. Many churches are part of keswick but the workers are not. It is a mainstream Christian organization.
Attending a keswick convention or two does not make the workers part of it nor part of the holiness movement. They broke from Faith Mission and anything to do with mainstream Christianity. They did not agree with it.
Remember it's been said many times on here, that at the turn of the 20th century they came out of these churches because they were dissatisfied with them.
What Hat is a person like you and me on this board. He has put forth a theory which he made up and you have grasped at it because it sounds good to you. No proof that the workers were anything to do with the Waldensians but plenty of proof they weren't. Every church claims to be built on the rock which never died out. Because you say it refers to the workers doesn't make it so. Facts tell the truth, not theory.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 15:20:10 GMT -5
You have just confirmed that William Irvine started the workers church, Christian convention church or 2x2s. Call it whatever name you want. They were never part of the Waldensians, and broke away from the Faith Mission. Many churches are part of keswick but the workers are not. It is a mainstream Christian organization. Attending a keswick convention or two does not make the workers part of it nor part of the holiness movement. They broke from Faith Mission and anything to do with mainstream Christianity. They did not agree with it. Remember it's been said many times on here, that at the turn of the 20th century they came out of these churches because they were dissatisfied with them. What Hat is a person like you and me on this board. He has put forth a theory which he made up and you have grasped at it because it sounds good to you. No proof that the workers were anything to do with the Waldensians but plenty of proof they weren't. Every church claims to be built on the rock which never died out. Because you say it refers to the workers doesn't make it so. Facts tell the truth, not theory.
Whathat understanding is SPOT on! You need to study the Vaudois doctrine, belief that I posted on page 1 of this thread.... and compare with the 2x2 doctrines of the early workers .... They have a lot of doctrines, belief in common and spirits..... It's NOT a theory... I have SAVED historical documents facts to back it up!
The Holy Spirit is still on the earth since the book of Acts chapter 2.... It's He who gives men and women revelation, understanding of Jesus Truth and Way of the New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship so they too to continue through the centuries, the gospel of Salvation through believing in Jesus Christ as their Redeemer and Savior.
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 15:33:03 GMT -5
John Govan's Faith Mission was a mainstream Protestant missionary organisation. William Irvine and Co did not agree with it so broke away from mainstream Christianity.
They did not plan ahead about what to do with their converts because it appeared that they expected everyone to become a workers. Not scriptural, fellowship is.
You have given no proof that the workers were ever part of the Waldensians. John Govan wasn't. After all these years surely you would have found something. All you have done is prove that the workers are another break away protestant denomination.
The Holy Spirit has been working in the lives of men and women since Jesus day. Not in a particular little group of Waldensians and later the mantle being passed onto the workers. It has been revealing Jesus to people. Jesus is not a way but the way.
The holiness movement is part of mainstream Christianity of which the workers claim to have no part of.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 15:52:26 GMT -5
John Govan's Faith Mission was a mainstream Protestant missionary organisation. William Irvine and Co did not agree with it so broke away from mainstream Christianity. They did not plan ahead about what to do with their converts because it appeared that they expected everyone to become a workers. Not scriptural, fellowship is. You have given no proof that the workers were ever part of the Waldensians. John Govan wasn't. After all these years surely you would have found something. All you have done is prove that the workers are another break away protestant denomination. The Holy Spirit has been working in the lives of men and women since Jesus day. Not in a particular little group of Waldensians and later the mantle being passed onto the workers. It has been revealing Jesus to people. Jesus is not a way but the way. The holiness movement is part of mainstream Christianity of which the workers claim to have no part of.
We read ONLY Jesus Way and Truth of fellowship in the 1st century... Jesus gives us hints of 40,000 plus ways in Matthew chapter 13.... The parable of the Sower, the seed and Satan, who planted Tares (the children of the devil) among the Wheat (Children of God) in God's field/the world.
The angels of God comes before Jesus returns and they bundle the wheat in God's storehouse and gather all the Tares/BAD seed to burn up because is good for nothing.
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 15:59:31 GMT -5
The workers are exactly the same. A break away from a breakaway the same as all churches. The workers do not follow the apostolic church. They are just another denomination with their own views and traditions. Another daughter of the mother of harlots.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 20, 2017 16:03:40 GMT -5
I beg to differ. "The BIG difference" is in the definition given to the word "roots."
There are spiritual roots and physical roots.
All Christian churches trace their spiritual roots back to the apostles;
All churches physical roots go back to the person who founded their method/church.
To assume the same "roots" for both spiritual and physical in a church is to equivocate.
The word "roots" had two distinct meanings concerning churches.
It begs the question, "Which roots are you asking about? Spiritual or physical?"
Proving something about one type root doesnt prove or disprove the other type root.
Merging or mixing them up generates false conclusions.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 16:04:21 GMT -5
The workers are exactly the same. A break away from a breakaway the same as all churches. The workers do not follow the apostolic church. They are just another denomination with their own views and traditions. Excerpt from George Walker letter in 1942: "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament, i.e., "two by two" and without salary or making appeals for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the Kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment "would be added to them". "As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gatherings together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primarily because it is scriptural, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian era met regularly for worship in homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history. Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore no church property or real estate has been acquired by purchase or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under a denominational name has not been necessary. The meetings continue to the present time in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders. Baptism by immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced."
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of Ida West from North Ireland An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices.They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly. |
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 16:10:19 GMT -5
I beg to differ. "The BIG difference" is in the definition given to the word "roots." There are spiritual roots and physical roots.All Christian churches trace their spiritual roots back to the apostles; All churches physical roots go back to the person who founded their method/church. To assume the same "roots" for both spiritual and physical in a church is to equivocate. The word "roots" had two distinct meanings concerning churches. It begs the question, " Which roots are you asking about? Spiritual or physical?"Proving something about one type root doesnt prove or disprove the other type root. Merging or mixing them up generates false conclusions.
I am talking about Both Spiritual and Physical roots. |
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 16:33:44 GMT -5
To say the workers came down the Waldensian line because 2 workers went to Keswick convention which was part of the holiness movement, on one or two occasions is to say that all churches come from the Waldensians because keswick is a mainstream Christian convention.
Saying that we are copying the apostolic ministry doesn't make it so. Saying we are trying to copy it is being honest, not that we are it or are copying it, but trying to. Most churches are doing this more accurately than the workers. Churches have their missionaries, they have their pastors, elders etc.
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 17:25:20 GMT -5
To say the workers came down the Waldensian line because 2 workers went to Keswick convention which was part of the holiness movement, on one or two occasions is to say that all churches come from the Waldensians because keswick is a mainstream Christian convention. Saying that we are copying the apostolic ministry doesn't make it so. Saying we are trying to copy it is being honest, not that we are it or are copying it, but trying to. Most churches are doing this more accurately than the workers. Churches have their missionaries, they have their pastors, elders etc.
Do you KNOW of any church out there today that has the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry like the workers and worship gathering in the homes of believers? Can you show me who they are? Thanks.
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Post by wally on Aug 20, 2017 18:47:48 GMT -5
John Govan's Faith Mission was a mainstream Protestant missionary organisation. William Irvine and Co did not agree with it so broke away from mainstream Christianity. They did not plan ahead about what to do with their converts because it appeared that they expected everyone to become a workers. Not scriptural, fellowship is. You have given no proof that the workers were ever part of the Waldensians. John Govan wasn't. After all these years surely you would have found something. All you have done is prove that the workers are another break away protestant denomination. The Holy Spirit has been working in the lives of men and women since Jesus day. Not in a particular little group of Waldensians and later the mantle being passed onto the workers. It has been revealing Jesus to people. Jesus is not a way but the way. The holiness movement is part of mainstream Christianity of which the workers claim to have no part of. neither is there anything like main stream churches in the bible... |
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 20, 2017 19:49:41 GMT -5
Nate, I have not seen a copy of this letter, and I'd like to read it, and also post it on TTT. I have G. Walker's 1942 letter to Selective Service, but it doesnt mention Wm Irvine or the Faith Mission, does not give dates of 1898-1900, and GW wrote it: "for the purpose of enabling the Local Draft Boards to correctly classify Ministers of this Church throughout the United States who are subject to the Selective Service Laws" (not to help the professing men). Nate, I would greatly appreciate it if you could email a scanned copy of this other letter you say you have to: truth@tellingthetruth.info so I can make it available to everyone. Thanx, CK 1942 Letter image: www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/index.php?level=picture&id=1195 (click next to see pages 2 and 3) 1942 Letter transcript: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/walkergeo.php#SelectiveExcerpt: "We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament, i.e., "two by two" and without salary or making appeals for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the Kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment "would be added to them". "As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gatherings together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primarily because it is scriptural, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian era met regularly for worship in homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history. Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore no church property or real estate has been acquired by purchase or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under a denominational name has not been necessary. The meetings continue to the present time in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders. Baptism by immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced." This is a classic example of how nathan adds to things to try and justify his views ! Facts don't matter. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 20, 2017 19:52:32 GMT -5
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Post by enuf on Aug 20, 2017 19:57:33 GMT -5
John Govan's Faith Mission was a mainstream Protestant missionary organisation. William Irvine and Co did not agree with it so broke away from mainstream Christianity. They did not plan ahead about what to do with their converts because it appeared that they expected everyone to become a workers. Not scriptural, fellowship is. You have given no proof that the workers were ever part of the Waldensians. John Govan wasn't. After all these years surely you would have found something. All you have done is prove that the workers are another break away protestant denomination. The Holy Spirit has been working in the lives of men and women since Jesus day. Not in a particular little group of Waldensians and later the mantle being passed onto the workers. It has been revealing Jesus to people. Jesus is not a way but the way. The holiness movement is part of mainstream Christianity of which the workers claim to have no part of. neither is there anything like main stream churches in the bible... Mainstream Christianity is the body of Christ. If you are not a part of the body of Christ then what are you part of? You are another denomination started by a man or men. The JWs and Mormons also claim to not be a part of mainstream Christianity but believe that they alone are the sole body of Christ. Nathan, from your post above. Many, many churches have home group meetings. They are nothing new. As long as I have been in mainstream churches I have attended home group meetings for Bible study and worship. The church which the apostles started began in homes until the numbers got bigger and they met in larger building. That is the same as any church starting up. Many churches start in homes until the numbers grow or if there is persecution. You need to go to Israel and see the early meeting places where they met. These began to be known as churches. Do you think the New Testament Christians only met in homes or met in larger places as the numbers grew. Imagine if you only ever met with your Sunday morning group and did not have larger gatherings seeing you do not think Christians should meet in building larger than homes. |
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Post by nathan on Aug 20, 2017 20:18:40 GMT -5
neither is there anything like main stream churches in the bible... Mainstream Christianity is the body of Christ. If you are not a part of the body of Christ then what are you part of? You are another denomination started by a man or men. The JWs and Mormons also claim to not be a part of mainstream Christianity but believe that they alone are the sole body of Christ. Nathan, from your post above. Many, many churches have home group meetings. They are nothing new. As long as I have been in mainstream churches I have attended home group meetings for Bible study and worship. The church which the apostles started began in homes until the numbers got bigger and they met in larger building. That is the same as any church starting up. Many churches start in homes until the numbers grow or if there is persecution. You need to go to Israel and see the early meeting places where they met. These began to be known as churches. Do you think the New Testament Christians only met in homes or met in larger places as the numbers grew. Imagine if you only ever met with your Sunday morning group and did not have larger gatherings seeing you do not think Christians should meet in building larger than homes.
Get back to me when you find one, ok. Thanks.
The more people/friends we have then more homes will open up for Sunday morning meetings. Just like in Portland city there are over 100s friends in Portland area so there are 6 churches. It was about 8 churches 25 years ago. A home should have about 20 friends so each can take parts in the meetings, don't want it too big.
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Post by enuf on Aug 21, 2017 1:09:17 GMT -5
I am not interested in some church which focuses on externals such as going out 2x2 and then claims it is the apostolic church. I'm interested in a church where the Holy Spirit is working. Your church appears to be largely dying out. The church which I go to has well over 1,000 people attending the one church each Sunday and over 50 homes meetings in the area each week where the workers have 1 or at the most 2 meetings on a Sunday. As I said there are plenty of missionaires out there. The workers are hardly missionaires any more, they act as pastors. Since when do pastors have to live with people or go out 2x2.
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Post by nathan on Aug 21, 2017 7:40:14 GMT -5
I am not interested in some church which focuses on externals such as going out 2x2 and then claims it is the apostolic church. I'm interested in a church where the Holy Spirit is working. Your church appears to be largely dying out. The church which I go to has well over 1,000 people attending the one church each Sunday and over 50 homes meetings in the area each week where the workers have 1 or at the most 2 meetings on a Sunday. As I said there are plenty of missionaires out there. The workers are hardly missionaires any more, they act as pastors. Since when do pastors have to live with people or go out 2x2.
So, what happened to the 1st century church which Jesus and the apostles established? When Jesus said, " Even the gates of HELL can NOT prevail against it. And He will be with them until the end of the age." Did Jesus LIE to us? Do you think? I don't THINK so.
Don't rest on your laurel in BIG numbers of attendants because Jesus said "ONLY few will find it." (His truth and way of fellowship).
So, tell me which church or name of the church you're attending that you think is so great.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 21, 2017 8:38:08 GMT -5
There are two kinds of Apostles, which means messenger. Those Jesus personally called and those sent by others; e.g. a king sending a messenger.
There were 14 apostles called by Jesus, less 1 (Judas) = 13 (including Paul) who were among the original Apostleship group, who with the prophets are the foundation, and Jesus the chief corner stone.
The other so-called apostles in the NT and elsewhere, even today, are representatives or emissaries chosen by various other individuals or churches.
Jesus' so-called "apostolic ministry" as you call it, only includes the original Apostles who were personally called by Jesus, and it ceased with the deaths of the apostles. After the Prophets and Apostles died out, there were evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph 4:11).
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Post by enuf on Aug 21, 2017 16:23:13 GMT -5
Nathan, as far as I know all the apostles are dead but the Christian church is alive and well.
As Jesus said, Even the gates of HELL can NOT prevail against it. And He will be with them until the end of the age." Did Jesus LIE to us? Do you think? I don't THINK so.
No Jesus did not lie but I am wondering if you think he did because you claim the 2x2s are the apostolic church when the truth is your church only started 117 years or so ago. Even Review is honest enough to admit that one.
Like I said the Christian church has never died out as Jesus said it would not. Your church did not exist back then so it can not be the apostolic church.
As for numbers, you mentioned the numbers of those in your church in the Portland area so I mentioned the numbers in my area. How many are a few? My Bible tells me it's a multitude which no man can number. Easy to count the few professing people who have ever professed in your church. Again the church cannot be yours alone.
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Post by nathan on Aug 21, 2017 17:00:33 GMT -5
Nathan, as far as I know all the apostles are dead but the Christian church is alive and well. As Jesus said, Even the gates of HELL can NOT prevail against it. And He will be with them until the end of the age." Did Jesus LIE to us? Do you think? I don't THINK so. No Jesus did not lie but I am wondering if you think he did because you claim the 2x2s are the apostolic church when the truth is your church only started 117 years or so ago. Even Review is honest enough to admit that one. Like I said the Christian church has never died out as Jesus said it would not. Your church did not exist back then so it can not be the apostolic church. As for numbers, you mentioned the numbers of those in your church in the Portland area so I mentioned the numbers in my area. How many are a few? My Bible tells me it's a multitude which no man can number. Easy to count the few professing people who have ever professed in your church. Again the church cannot be yours alone.
I have historical documents to prove it there has always been Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry in every generation since the days of Jesus and the 12 and 72 apostles...
Review doesn't know what's he talking about, his understanding has too many holes and it doesn't make too much sense like William Irvine is the founder in 1897.
Yep, I agree with you the church and the 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship of the believers, which Jesus started did NOT die out or will NEVER die out as he had predicted.... The 2x2s church is the apostolic ministry in the 21st century! generation.
How many are few? like 100,000 2x2 members compare to 7.5 Billions people in the world. Multitude no man can number that is when you add 2000 plus years of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and believers in every generation all together.
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Post by pa on Aug 22, 2017 19:14:48 GMT -5
Nathan in all love I write this to you.
You can claim and write anything on here and on your website but only if you are willing for critical peer review will anything you write have any credibility. I repeat ONLY IF YOU ARE WILLING FOR CRITICAL SCRUTINY BY PEER REVIEW.
You refer to the 1942 Letter of G. Walker and did not even do the research to verify the true date. That undermines your credibility. You then go on to make assumptions & deductions from that letter and make statements as if it was written in that letter. That undermines your credibility. You then take scrutiny by Cherie and others as personal attack, which undermines your credibility. A true scholar takes critical scrutiny by peers serious and amend their research to align closer to the truth or evidence. Historic facts are an exact account of events.
Now you don't have many peers in the field of history research regarding the 2x2's however Cherie surely must be one of the most distinguished peers in that field. I know for sure she takes proof of everything she puts on TTT very seriously through thorough research and she is happy to show the proof. The snippets of history that I have heard as a teenager in the 70's (from the old 75+yo workers) of the first wave of workers to the colonies all line up with Cherie's research. She has done you a favour in reviewing some of your claims here, so IMHO you will do yourself a favour to take her reviews on-board.
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Post by nathan on Aug 22, 2017 20:35:02 GMT -5
Nathan in all love I write this to you. You can claim and write anything on here and on your website but only if you are willing for critical peer review will anything you write have any credibility. I repeat ONLY IF YOU ARE WILLING FOR CRITICAL SCRUTINY BY PEER REVIEW. You refer to the 1942 Letter of G. Walker and did not even do the research to verify the true date. That undermines your credibility. You then go on to make assumptions & deductions from that letter and make statements as if it was written in that letter. That undermines your credibility. You then take scrutiny by Cherie and others as personal attack, which undermines your credibility. A true scholar takes critical scrutiny by peers serious and amend their research to align closer to the truth or evidence. Historic facts are an exact account of events. Now you don't have many peers in the field of history research regarding the 2x2's however Cherie surely must be one of the most distinguished peers in that field. I know for sure she takes proof of everything she puts on TTT very seriously through thorough research and she is happy to show the proof. The snippets of history that I have heard as a teenager in the 70's (from the old 75+yo workers) of the first wave of workers to the colonies all line up with Cherie's research. She has done you a favour in reviewing some of your claims here, so IMHO you will do yourself a favour to take her reviews on-board.
Cherie K. and I have exchanged our thoughts on these things about 25 yrs... I have heard so many reviewers on TMB for 25 years already... and I am still listening to what others have to say...
I appreciate Cherie K. history about our fellowship but she is NOT included the 1800 years history of Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship existed before William Irvine got involved with the Faith Mission 2x2 workers apostolic ministry from 1893-1900.
Cherie K. agenda is Started with William Irvine in 1897 and that is all SHE wants for the readers to KNOW and Remember when they read on her TTT website.... so this is founded by a man William Irvine and NOT by Jesus Christ or any apostle.
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