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Post by johnfields on Jun 25, 2017 11:55:15 GMT -5
I know this is going to be a bit divisive, but I'd like to offer a reward of £2000 for information that leads to the successful prosecution of an elder or worker for fraud, theft, tax evasion, or crimes involving money or property in general in the United Kingdom. I'll pay out for information that turns out to be key to leading to a prosecution, even if the information by itself was not the clincher. In the event that I end up paying out more than £20,000 in rewards, or become unable to pay due to a change in my financial circumstances, then I would not pay out -- but I plan to make every effort to do so. I reserve the right to pay or not pay at my own discretion and make no promises to personally pursue information given to me. However, I am well motivated to pay for such information and would consider it money well spent, and I may well pay considerably more (up to £10,000) for information on crimes that I consider to be of particular significance. My reason for doing this is that I have the impression that fraud among elders may be pervasive; but if it isn't, then of course no-one will be prosecuted and I won't have to pay out! Feel free to message me privately. My real name is John Purcell, and I am the creator and owner of the website www.caveofprogramming.com. I'll also consider paying for information that ends up clarifying, beyond reasonable doubt, and by legal means, the financial position and activities of the 2x2s in the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 18:17:04 GMT -5
i wonder how many peices of silver that is..
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 25, 2017 19:08:02 GMT -5
i wonder how many peices of silver that is.. Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 20:41:17 GMT -5
A Texas organization that has investigated financial fraud in the American religious community is in the process of expanding their efforts globally.
The Dallas, Texas, headquarters of the Trinity Foundation, an organization that investigates financial religious fraud. The Dallas-based Trinity Foundation recently announced their plans to investigate religious fraud on a global scale following the release of research earlier this year indicating that religious fraud globally may total $100 billion in the next decade.
"The researchers estimate 2015 missions funding at $45 billion, with religious fraud projected to exceed that at $50 billion, a huge jump over last year's $39 billion," stated the foundation.
"As a direct result of the [research], the foundation has decided to expand its investigations worldwide and is calling for coordinated action from churches and denominational leaders."
Pete Evans of the Trinity Foundation told The Christian Post in an interview Friday that the organization was still forging its international investigation team.
"We are still in the process of reaching out to various foreign nationals in different countries around the world and permanent residents here in the U.S. who return to their homeland from time to time," said Evans.
"The actual numbers of investigators within our international force is still fluid and growing — less than a dozen so far, but representing every continent except Antarctica."
Evans also told CP that they're "still establishing guidelines for our international investigation procedures."
"At this point in our 'deputizing' process, it's unclear whether or not any of them will have to obtain private investigations licenses in their respective countries," continued Evans.
Founded in 1972, the Trinity Foundation investigates allegations of fraud in the American Christian community.
During the 1980s, the foundation provided research and testimony that led to the exposure of the fraudulent activities of various televangelists.
For its data on ecclesiastical crime, the Trinity Foundation used the statistical table in the January 2015 issue of the International Bulletin of Missionary Research, a publication of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity.
Gina A. Zurlo, assistant director at the center, which operates at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, told CP about how they calculated that number.
"Ecclesiastical crime is set at 6 percent of all giving to Christian causes. The 6 percent figure comes from a survey conducted by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners that estimated that all organizations lose on average 6 percent of their revenue to fraud every year," explained Zurlo.
"Other studies estimate that nonprofits lose as much as 13 percent of their income to embezzlement, so our estimate could be quite conservative. Figures for 2025 in all categories are calculated by standard demographic projection methods; that is, if current trends remain constant."
Regarding Trinity Foundation's efforts to expand worldwide, Zurlo told CP that those at the center "were encouraged to see that the Trinity Foundation would be expanding their efforts to fight religious fraud globally."
"In fact, that is the kind of response we hope for in publishing this research. Fraud in the church is a huge problem, especially considering the unequal distribution of Christian income worldwide," said Zurlo.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 25, 2017 22:56:01 GMT -5
I know this is going to be a bit divisive, but I'd like to offer a reward of £2000 for information that leads to the successful prosecution of an elder or worker for fraud, theft, tax evasion, or crimes involving money or property in general in the United Kingdom. I'll pay out for information that turns out to be key to leading to a prosecution, even if the information by itself was not the clincher. In the event that I end up paying out more than £20,000 in rewards, or become unable to pay due to a change in my financial circumstances, then I would not pay out -- but I plan to make every effort to do so. I reserve the right to pay or not pay at my own discretion and make no promises to personally pursue information given to me. However, I am well motivated to pay for such information and would consider it money well spent, and I may well pay considerably more (up to £10,000) for information on crimes that I consider to be of particular significance. My reason for doing this is that I have the impression that fraud among elders may be pervasive; but if it isn't, then of course no-one will be prosecuted and I won't have to pay out! Feel free to message me privately. My real name is John Purcell, and I am the creator and owner of the website www.caveofprogramming.com. I'll also consider paying for information that ends up clarifying, beyond reasonable doubt, and by legal means, the financial position and activities of the 2x2s in the UK. I'm curious about how you think you can accomplish such a thing. If you had standing to sue them (i.e. you were defrauded yourself) you would proceed with your own case. But since you don't seem to have such a case, you're going to have to find someone else who can provide admissible evidence of such a crime being committed and see if there's a law enforcement agency that will entertain your complaint. I'm not sure an offer for a monetary reward will help you. From personal experience you will have more success if you eavesdrop and gather enough mention of specifically illegal activity between an offender(s) and victim(s) that you are willing to name in your complaint without their knowledge. You will also need to inform law enforcement how you found out about the crime, and you'll have to identify for law enforcement what evidence there is that the victim believes he/she was defrauded. Otherwise they'll dismiss it as a nuisance complaint.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 0:27:05 GMT -5
i wonder how many peices of silver that is.. Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 26, 2017 1:20:45 GMT -5
Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not... It isn't about betraying someone, it's about getting factual information.
If the information isn't factual then that information wouldn't be reliable and therefore of no use.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 26, 2017 1:23:08 GMT -5
Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not... I think it matters whether one is "betraying" an innocent person or a guilty person. Is there something wrong with accepting the reward for leading the police to criminal. On the other hand, it is a crime to accept money for participating in a criminal scheme.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 26, 2017 4:15:59 GMT -5
I know this is going to be a bit divisive, but I'd like to offer a reward of £2000 for information that leads to the successful prosecution of an elder or worker for fraud, theft, tax evasion, or crimes involving money or property in general in the United Kingdom. I'll pay out for information that turns out to be key to leading to a prosecution, even if the information by itself was not the clincher. In the event that I end up paying out more than £20,000 in rewards, or become unable to pay due to a change in my financial circumstances, then I would not pay out -- but I plan to make every effort to do so. I reserve the right to pay or not pay at my own discretion and make no promises to personally pursue information given to me. However, I am well motivated to pay for such information and would consider it money well spent, and I may well pay considerably more (up to £10,000) for information on crimes that I consider to be of particular significance. My reason for doing this is that I have the impression that fraud among elders may be pervasive; but if it isn't, then of course no-one will be prosecuted and I won't have to pay out! Feel free to message me privately. My real name is John Purcell, and I am the creator and owner of the website www.caveofprogramming.com. I'll also consider paying for information that ends up clarifying, beyond reasonable doubt, and by legal means, the financial position and activities of the 2x2s in the UK. I'm curious about how you think you can accomplish such a thing. If you had standing to sue them (i.e. you were defrauded yourself) you would proceed with your own case. But since you don't seem to have such a case, you're going to have to find someone else who can provide admissible evidence of such a crime being committed and see if there's a law enforcement agency that will entertain your complaint. I'm not sure an offer for a monetary reward will help you. From personal experience you will have more success if you eavesdrop and gather enough mention of specifically illegal activity between an offender(s) and victim(s) that you are willing to name in your complaint without their knowledge. You will also need to inform law enforcement how you found out about the crime, and you'll have to identify for law enforcement what evidence there is that the victim believes he/she was defrauded. Otherwise they'll dismiss it as a nuisance complaint. In my case I need another key piece of information, which I'm making progress with procuring, before I can hope to determine the innocence or guilt of a particular elder. The reason I'm asking about financial fraud is that it tends to leave a paper trail (well, electronic these days) that can sometimes lead to it being possible to prove beyond doubt that fraud has taken place. In that case, and only in that case, I can contact the people affected and see if they want to press charges. I'm also fast acquiring a useful set of skills that may help anyone who does feel they've been defrauded. I don't hold out much hope for a reward as an incentive, because generally if people knew that fraud had taken place, they'd go after it themselves. But for the sake of a post on a forum, I thought it worth a shot. I think eavesdropping or doing things behind the backs of complainants is underhand, so can only get anywhere if I can establish through the paper trail that fraud has been committed, and the people affected want to press charges. In a case I have here myself, the people affected want charges pressed, but we're lacking one piece of evidence --- which, when acquired, may show the elder to be innocent, or not. Without that it comes down to one person's word against another, which doesn't meet the criteria for a criminal prosecution. So we'll have to see.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 27, 2017 0:21:56 GMT -5
In my case I need another key piece of information, which I'm making progress with procuring, before I can hope to determine the innocence or guilt of a particular elder. The reason I'm asking about financial fraud is that it tends to leave a paper trail (well, electronic these days) that can sometimes lead to it being possible to prove beyond doubt that fraud has taken place. In that case, and only in that case, I can contact the people affected and see if they want to press charges. I'm also fast acquiring a useful set of skills that may help anyone who does feel they've been defrauded. I don't hold out much hope for a reward as an incentive, because generally if people knew that fraud had taken place, they'd go after it themselves. But for the sake of a post on a forum, I thought it worth a shot. I think eavesdropping or doing things behind the backs of complainants is underhand, so can only get anywhere if I can establish through the paper trail that fraud has been committed, and the people affected want to press charges. In a case I have here myself, the people affected want charges pressed, but we're lacking one piece of evidence --- which, when acquired, may show the elder to be innocent, or not. Without that it comes down to one person's word against another, which doesn't meet the criteria for a criminal prosecution. So we'll have to see. It does depend on the case if you have to limit yourself to eavesdropping. But if you know people who are willing to file charges you can be much more forward about it. But you do realize that most of what is investigation is done behind people's backs. Reluctant witnesses, and even victims, are willing to lie for a variety of reasons, some of them valid and some of them just because of fear of retribution. With fraud you do have to have a paper trail as well as a victim who will file a complaint. In my case there were lots of people who were complaining, but everyone was also maintaining that the workers had asked them not to report the perpetrator to the authorities. A worker had been molesting children for decades and it had always been covered up. Here, in such cases, anyone can, and many are required by law, to report it to the authorities and the authorities are required to investigate. It's unfortunate, but I knew that so much lying and fabrication of justifications had gone on -- for years -- that if anyone knew what I was going to do far too many witnesses would be tampered with before the police could interview them. I gave the police about 20 names of people to interview and that was all I heard about the case until the perpetrator was sentenced to a LONG time.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 27, 2017 4:38:03 GMT -5
Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not... Criminals need to be betrayed.
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Post by lifeafter2x2 on Jun 27, 2017 14:09:11 GMT -5
I wish I could help. I truly believe monetary values won't bring forward what you are looking for. They are such a closed book and i think only the elders/overseers know the truth. I have so many questions myself and empathise but these lot are next to a secret society. Don't give up and love to your mum and family.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 27, 2017 16:29:24 GMT -5
In my case I need another key piece of information, which I'm making progress with procuring, before I can hope to determine the innocence or guilt of a particular elder. The reason I'm asking about financial fraud is that it tends to leave a paper trail (well, electronic these days) that can sometimes lead to it being possible to prove beyond doubt that fraud has taken place. In that case, and only in that case, I can contact the people affected and see if they want to press charges. I'm also fast acquiring a useful set of skills that may help anyone who does feel they've been defrauded. I don't hold out much hope for a reward as an incentive, because generally if people knew that fraud had taken place, they'd go after it themselves. But for the sake of a post on a forum, I thought it worth a shot. I think eavesdropping or doing things behind the backs of complainants is underhand, so can only get anywhere if I can establish through the paper trail that fraud has been committed, and the people affected want to press charges. In a case I have here myself, the people affected want charges pressed, but we're lacking one piece of evidence --- which, when acquired, may show the elder to be innocent, or not. Without that it comes down to one person's word against another, which doesn't meet the criteria for a criminal prosecution. So we'll have to see. It does depend on the case if you have to limit yourself to eavesdropping. But if you know people who are willing to file charges you can be much more forward about it. But you do realize that most of what is investigation is done behind people's backs. Reluctant witnesses, and even victims, are willing to lie for a variety of reasons, some of them valid and some of them just because of fear of retribution. With fraud you do have to have a paper trail as well as a victim who will file a complaint. In my case there were lots of people who were complaining, but everyone was also maintaining that the workers had asked them not to report the perpetrator to the authorities. A worker had been molesting children for decades and it had always been covered up. Here, in such cases, anyone can, and many are required by law, to report it to the authorities and the authorities are required to investigate. It's unfortunate, but I knew that so much lying and fabrication of justifications had gone on -- for years -- that if anyone knew what I was going to do far too many witnesses would be tampered with before the police could interview them. I gave the police about 20 names of people to interview and that was all I heard about the case until the perpetrator was sentenced to a LONG time. Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 5:05:32 GMT -5
It does depend on the case if you have to limit yourself to eavesdropping. But if you know people who are willing to file charges you can be much more forward about it. But you do realize that most of what is investigation is done behind people's backs. Reluctant witnesses, and even victims, are willing to lie for a variety of reasons, some of them valid and some of them just because of fear of retribution. With fraud you do have to have a paper trail as well as a victim who will file a complaint. In my case there were lots of people who were complaining, but everyone was also maintaining that the workers had asked them not to report the perpetrator to the authorities. A worker had been molesting children for decades and it had always been covered up. Here, in such cases, anyone can, and many are required by law, to report it to the authorities and the authorities are required to investigate. It's unfortunate, but I knew that so much lying and fabrication of justifications had gone on -- for years -- that if anyone knew what I was going to do far too many witnesses would be tampered with before the police could interview them. I gave the police about 20 names of people to interview and that was all I heard about the case until the perpetrator was sentenced to a LONG time. Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know.
What goes on in the dark will sooner or later come out in the light, but what is needed is verifiable evidence and a determination to use that evidence via the correct channels to legally resolve such matters. This cannot be achieved on a forum like this where there is much idle gossip.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 28, 2017 5:38:07 GMT -5
Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know.
What goes on in the dark will sooner or later come out in the light, but what is needed is verifiable evidence and a determination to use that evidence via the correct channels to legally resolve such matters. This cannot be achieved on a forum like this where there is much idle gossip. I doubt whether this reward will do much good, but sometimes people can offer pointers to situations that may have involved fraud, and then it's possible to secure relevant documents, find people affected and forward to the police. Hopefully there isn't wide-scale fraud in the UK in the 2x2s to be uncovered. I have found this forum very useful in pointing me to sources of legal documents, which I'm procuring and examining, just in case.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 28, 2017 13:15:57 GMT -5
Wally, those " pieces of silver" you are referring to was for betrayal.
This is in no way can be compared to that.
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not... Your comment about betrayal tells me that you are more concerned about "honour amongst thieves" than about criminal activity. Keeping up the facade of the Truth is always right comes at a terrible price for those who are victims of theft and abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 13:42:19 GMT -5
a betrayal for money is a betrayal for money, justified or not... Your comment about betrayal tells me that you are more concerned about "honour amongst thieves" than about criminal activity. Keeping up the facade of the Truth is always right comes at a terrible price for those who are victims of theft and abuse. doing it for money instead of honesty just makes them as bad as criminals curly...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 28, 2017 13:44:09 GMT -5
Your comment about betrayal tells me that you are more concerned about "honour amongst thieves" than about criminal activity. Keeping up the facade of the Truth is always right comes at a terrible price for those who are victims of theft and abuse. doing it for money instead of honesty just makes them as bad as criminals curly... An enticement or enducement to provide information should be viewed with suspicion it is a useful tool to get to the truth of the matter by bringing out more information.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 28, 2017 15:15:21 GMT -5
I feel the real issue here is fraud, if it occurs. Whether someone talks about their suspicions for money or not, is neither here nor there really. As far as I'm concerned, if there are elders who like to, say, dress up as women and have a gambling habit, that's their business, as long as they're not doing any harm. I don't feel that sort of thing needs to be made public, necessarily. I haven't got it in for honest elders with weird secret lifestyles. But IF there are elders or workers out there who are defrauding vulnerable people, then I want to know, and the police need to know.
I'm also interested just in gaining clarity on the financial affairs of the 2x2s, because whatever information can legally be revealed, I think members of this faith have a right to know. Those who don't want to know can just ignore it. But people who donate money, look after workers in their own homes, and may believe "there is no organisation" and "there are no large bank accounts", really should be allowed to know the truth of the matter.
It's only a matter of time before the whole picture is public knowledge, and really the 2x2s would be better off just embracing transparency, so that any information that might be disturbing to people attending the meetings comes out from their leaders, and not from "outsiders". The only way they're better off keeping it to themselves is if there is some sort of dishonesty in what they're doing.
They seem to be having a good crack at cutting me off from my professing aunt again, and if I'm right in thinking they're doing that, I hope they realise that if they succeed, that will leave me with a lot more time on my hands to investigate and expose their workings, and cause me to really go ballistic with my efforts. The less happy my aunt is, the more determined I am to figure out what's going on. The more free and happy she is, the less worried I am about the 2x2s as a whole. If they manage to cut her off from her relatives and make the last years of her life far more miserable than they need be, then they will find me unceasing in my efforts. Apart from CSA, there's scarcely anything more disturbing than watching people pile pressure onto an elderly lady with Alzheimer's.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 28, 2017 16:46:04 GMT -5
Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know. Yes, it was the case of Ruben Mata in California. I had nothing personal against him, in fact I liked him rather well. But there were too many people who needed protection, himself included, that it was neither safe nor profitable for him to be a free citizen. Oddly enough, once he was arrested and prosecuted the workers circulated word that the problem had been appropriately taken care of -- no mention of course of who may have taken responsibility for it. I found that humorous because I quite doubt that any of them knew who reported him. You undoubtedly know that most worker advice on criminal matters, especially involving other workers, is just a lot of posturing. Are you familiar with the Wizard of Oz? Fraud, of course, is in a different category of crime from abuse. But some good advice might be to treat each and every crime as the crime of an individual, not anything to do with common group practice. That would certainly weaken one’s case. I’m still a bit doubtful of the kind of investigation you’re thinking of undertaking. But there is something you mentioned that you might want to take into consideration. If the victim is a relative (your aunt), and is incapacitated in some manner, perhaps you have some standing to file a fraud complaint on her behalf. And check to see if someone has right of attorney for her if she’s not legally responsible for herself. If she seems to have a really specific legitimate complaint, I think the case should be given to law enforcement because they have far more authority and power to investigate such matters than a run of the mill relative. When you report someone to the police, don’t bother telling anyone, victim or perpetrator or witness, that the police are going to come and visit them. What you never ever want to do is give notice to anyone who may decide to advise anyone else what to tell the police. That’s how most criminal cases become impossible to prosecute.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 28, 2017 19:30:05 GMT -5
I feel the real issue here is fraud, if it occurs. Whether someone talks about their suspicions for money or not, is neither here nor there really. As far as I'm concerned, if there are elders who like to, say, dress up as women and have a gambling habit, that's their business, as long as they're not doing any harm. I don't feel that sort of thing needs to be made public, necessarily. I haven't got it in for honest elders with weird secret lifestyles. But IF there are elders or workers out there who are defrauding vulnerable people, then I want to know, and the police need to know. I'm also interested just in gaining clarity on the financial affairs of the 2x2s, because whatever information can legally be revealed, I think members of this faith have a right to know. Those who don't want to know can just ignore it. But people who donate money, look after workers in their own homes, and may believe "there is no organisation" and "there are no large bank accounts", really should be allowed to know the truth of the matter. It's only a matter of time before the whole picture is public knowledge, and really the 2x2s would be better off just embracing transparency, so that any information that might be disturbing to people attending the meetings comes out from their leaders, and not from "outsiders". The only way they're better off keeping it to themselves is if there is some sort of dishonesty in what they're doing. They seem to be having a good crack at cutting me off from my professing aunt again, and if I'm right in thinking they're doing that, I hope they realise that if they succeed, that will leave me with a lot more time on my hands to investigate and expose their workings, and cause me to really go ballistic with my efforts. The less happy my aunt is, the more determined I am to figure out what's going on. The more free and happy she is, the less worried I am about the 2x2s as a whole. If they manage to cut her off from her relatives and make the last years of her life far more miserable than they need be, then they will find me unceasing in my efforts. Apart from CSA, there's scarcely anything more disturbing than watching people pile pressure onto an elderly lady with Alzheimer's. Glad of your post advising that you making investigating 2x2 finances the main focus in life for the foreseeable future. This is great work you are doing, we don't want any fraud going on amongst us. We look forward to court case and sentencing details once they hit the press. Are you expecting any cases to reach the courts this year? I really sense sarcasm here! Am I wrong? As I've said lots of times, there's only one minor case that, if I can obtain a key piece of evidence, might just hit the courts before too long. Beyond that I'm only engaged in research. The aim of this research is to clarify 2x2s finances as much as possible, and to try to determine if there is much fraud going on. I'm not the police or HMRC, so I'm very limited in what documents I can obtain. But I have got stuck into this project and will report any interesting findings where possible. I have literally no idea whether there's much outright fraud going on in the 2x2s in the UK or not. The actions of two elders here have made me think there might be, but that might just be more madness, arrogance or incompetence rather than fraud. I don't know yet. Lacking any clear forthcoming explanation from them, I can only guess at the motives behind their actions. One of them is under a form of limited investigation by a government body, initiated by me, but even if he was bent on fraud -- which I don't know -- I'd be surprised if he'd been stupid enough to have actually committed it up till this point. At the moment he seems to be playing for sympathy, but unless he has committed criminal acts, he will face no repercussions, so should rest easy -- although there are a bunch of hopping mad family members that are doing their best to restrain themselves. In fact, I would be happy to relieve him of what he claims is a heavy burden. At the moment I have a much clearer picture of the UK than I do of the Republic of Ireland. I have freelancers working on data I've obtained from public sources, etc, and software I've written and am still working on, to try to identify suspicious behaviour and flesh out the picture I have so far. So if any ex-2x2s, or current 2x2s in the Republic of Ireland who are concerned that fraud may be occurring would like to contact me, please do. It is to everyone's advantage if such fraud can be exposed, or if 2x2 finances can be brought into the public eye. If I cannot identify any further cases of possible fraud, that's far from a guarantee that there aren't any -- you need fully open accounts to begin to verify that. But I'll do the best I can, and in spite of the stress that goes along with actually trying to tackle suspicious behaviour among a bunch of people who don't want to hear about it or talk about it, I can at least say I'm finding the technical challenge of it interesting. Which is small compensation for the way they've treated my relatives.
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Post by johnfields on Jun 28, 2017 19:56:24 GMT -5
Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know. Yes, it was the case of Ruben Mata in California. I had nothing personal against him, in fact I liked him rather well. But there were too many people who needed protection, himself included, that it was neither safe nor profitable for him to be a free citizen. Oddly enough, once he was arrested and prosecuted the workers circulated word that the problem had been appropriately taken care of -- no mention of course of who may have taken responsibility for it. I found that humorous because I quite doubt that any of them knew who reported him. You undoubtedly know that most worker advice on criminal matters, especially involving other workers, is just a lot of posturing. Are you familiar with the Wizard of Oz? Fraud, of course, is in a different category of crime from abuse. But some good advice might be to treat each and every crime as the crime of an individual, not anything to do with common group practice. That would certainly weaken one’s case. I’m still a bit doubtful of the kind of investigation you’re thinking of undertaking. But there is something you mentioned that you might want to take into consideration. If the victim is a relative (your aunt), and is incapacitated in some manner, perhaps you have some standing to file a fraud complaint on her behalf. And check to see if someone has right of attorney for her if she’s not legally responsible for herself. If she seems to have a really specific legitimate complaint, I think the case should be given to law enforcement because they have far more authority and power to investigate such matters than a run of the mill relative. When you report someone to the police, don’t bother telling anyone, victim or perpetrator or witness, that the police are going to come and visit them. What you never ever want to do is give notice to anyone who may decide to advise anyone else what to tell the police. That’s how most criminal cases become impossible to prosecute. I'm ahead of you there .... several months down that line. I did check if there was a registered power of attorney; there was, and then I discovered he had turned her sole bank account into a joint account with himself, and had opened an online-only non-fully-UK-regulated savings account for her, into which he was transferring most of her pension, while making unreasonable demands on her and lying to her relatives. So I alerted the Office of the Public Guardian, who will determine whether they think he should continue to have power of attorney, and will alert the police if they discover actual theft. None of what I factually know that he's done so far is a criminal or civil offence; it just contravenes government guidelines to the point where the OPG were willing to investigate. And it leaves me feeling deeply puzzled. In a second case, another elder did get a police visit, and I was careful not to alert him to the fact beforehand. He came out with a story which others involved say is nonsense. But we can't prove that, at least until I can obtain a key piece of evidence that I think I have about an 80% chance of obtaining. So then I'm wondering what these two cases are all about -- fraud or not fraud? And for that reason I'm looking for similar and related cases, to see if this sort of thing is common. And also I'm just curious about how 2x2 finances work in the UK and Ireland. I can't actually say what I'm actually doing in any detail, because I don't want to give anyone time to think up explanations for anything I might (or might not) uncover. To me this is all just a sad mess. People who have committed criminal acts do need to be dealt with for the safety of others. But it doesn't give me any pleasure to see people getting police visits, etc. I would rather I had not needed to get into any of this in the first place. I would prefer it if someone could give me detailed explanations that made sense and that put my mind at rest, and then I could consider spending my time on something less stressful and more profitable.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 28, 2017 22:24:40 GMT -5
Your comment about betrayal tells me that you are more concerned about "honour amongst thieves" than about criminal activity. Keeping up the facade of the Truth is always right comes at a terrible price for those who are victims of theft and abuse. doing it for money instead of honesty just makes them as bad as criminals curly... No, it isn't wally!
If the information that is given is correct information, -the money doesn't matter! Oft times, even officials offer a reward for information!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 28, 2017 22:33:15 GMT -5
Are you able to say which worker, since now this must be a matter of public record? It does seem to be a frustrating thing about various official bodies that you often never know whether they're actually investigating or not. Good on you for getting justice there. I've never been sure whether there is a big problem with fraud in the 2x2s; there's a problem with child abuse for sure -- it has clearly happened on a major scale historically (due to a minority of dodgy workers moving from house to house) and it's not clear that anything much has changed. There are enough odd goings on to make me think quite a bit of fraud might be going on as well, but I just don't know.
What goes on in the dark will sooner or later come out in the light, but what is needed is verifiable evidence and a determination to use that evidence via the correct channels to legally resolve such matters. This cannot be achieved on a forum like this where there is much idle gossip. However, a forum like this is a very good place to get information from a lot of people what might be able to help one find that "verifiable evidence."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2017 23:48:43 GMT -5
doing it for money instead of honesty just makes them as bad as criminals curly... No, it isn't wally!
If the information that is given is correct information, -the money doesn't matter! Oft times, even officials offer a reward for information!its blood money no matter how you try to twist it dmmichgood...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 29, 2017 0:21:46 GMT -5
No, it isn't wally!
If the information that is given is correct information, -the money doesn't matter! Oft times, even officials offer a reward for information! its blood money no matter how you try to twist it dmmichgood... It isn't "blood money," wally! Don't be an ass!
If someone knows something that is being done which is hurting someone else, -they SHOULD tell what they know. Whether there is money involved makes no difference as long as it is factual.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 14:03:58 GMT -5
its blood money no matter how you try to twist it dmmichgood... It isn't "blood money," wally! Don't be an ass!
If someone knows something that is being done which is hurting someone else, -they SHOULD tell what they know. Whether there is money involved makes no difference as long as it is factual.i guess this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black...
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Post by johnfields on Jun 29, 2017 18:06:34 GMT -5
It isn't "blood money," wally! Don't be an ass!
If someone knows something that is being done which is hurting someone else, -they SHOULD tell what they know. Whether there is money involved makes no difference as long as it is factual. i guess this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black... You might as well argue that the police should do what they're doing without pay, because it's the right thing to do. The police are paid for the risk and time involved in their work. People who supply information often also do so at some risk to themselves, and the most important thing is that fraud is exposed, not whether they take money for helping to expose it or not. To put the moral spotlight on the person exposing it rather than the person committing the crime, is really mixed up.
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