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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 0:10:53 GMT -5
the same question could be asked of atheism or any belief... Wally, Wally, -I despair that you will ever understand that atheism is NOT a belief, - atheism is the LACK of a belief! keep telling yourself that....
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2017 1:46:55 GMT -5
Wally, Wally, -I despair that you will ever understand that atheism is NOT a belief, - atheism is the LACK of a belief! keep telling yourself that.... the original post on this thread contained a quote:
Robert M. Pirsig:
“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values
Since I am not delusional nor am I religious just what is it that I need to "keep telling (my)self," Wally?
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Post by continuer on May 8, 2017 3:38:39 GMT -5
It is wrong to say that AA was founded as a religious organisation. It wasn't and I am told that there is no requirement that members should join a church. It was recognised however that there is a spiritual dimension to the "cure" for the illness of alcoholism (and it is accepted as an illness by the World Health Organisation). Today, over 1 million people in the US regularly attend AA meetings and if they get help, more power to their elbow, I say. I know one guy whose life was changed dramatically for the better as a result of attending AA meetings, starting to work the twelve step programme and accepting that only a power greater than himself could deliver him from his alcoholism. If some 5 million people attend an AA meeting in America (and I million stick), even if 10% get help, that's an awful lot of people (and that is just the US). Sorry, -but Alcoholics Anonymous was definitely started by a religious group.
The origins of Alcoholics Anonymous can be traced to the Oxford Group, a religious movement popular in the United States and Europe in the early 20th century.
Members of the Oxford Group practiced a formula of self-improvement by performing self-inventory, admitting wrongs, making amends, using prayer and meditation, and carrying the message to others.
I think the question is "Was AA founded as a religious organisation?". If you think the answer to that question is "Yes", perhaps you could go along to your nearest AA meeting, tell them that they are practising a religion and see what response you get. "The AA way of life can transcend most barriers of race, creed and language...". I remember my friend telling me that some AA members treat the word "God" as meaning "Group Of Drunks" (in other words, their higher power is the AA group itself - I am told that that is perfectly acceptable if it works for the individual concerned).
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2017 4:07:50 GMT -5
Sorry, -but Alcoholics Anonymous was definitely started by a religious group.
The origins of Alcoholics Anonymous can be traced to the Oxford Group, a religious movement popular in the United States and Europe in the early 20th century.
Members of the Oxford Group practiced a formula of self-improvement by performing self-inventory, admitting wrongs, making amends, using prayer and meditation, and carrying the message to others.
I think the question is "Was AA founded as a religious organisation?". If you think the answer to that question is "Yes", perhaps you could go along to your nearest AA meeting, tell them that they are practising a religion and see what response you get. "The AA way of life can transcend most barriers of race, creed and language...". I remember my friend telling me that some AA members treat the word "God" as meaning "Group Of Drunks" (in other words, their higher power is the AA group itself - I am told that that is perfectly acceptable if it works for the individual concerned). OK, if you want to get technical about it you used the word "as" a religious organization and I said "by" a religious organization!
Touch`e ?
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 13:10:11 GMT -5
keep telling yourself that.... the original post on this thread contained a quote:
Robert M. Pirsig:
“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values
Since I am not delusional nor am I religious just what is it that I need to "keep telling (my)self," Wally? That there is no God...
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Post by iamsaved on May 8, 2017 14:35:36 GMT -5
Wally you equally don't know if there is a god, your just going by a book written by man! If it said book came floating out of the sky with angel wings I would believe! But it was written by men like you and me!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 19:46:30 GMT -5
Wally you equally don't know if there is a god, your just going by a book written by man! If it said book came floating out of the sky with angel wings I would believe! But it was written by men like you and me! i'm 100% convinced there is as i am sure you are that there isn't....
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2017 20:18:12 GMT -5
the original post on this thread contained a quote:
Robert M. Pirsig:
“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values
Since I am not delusional nor am I religious just what is it that I need to "keep telling (my)self," Wally? That there is no God... CORRECT!
Wally, -do you want to go for the 65 thousand dollar question?
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Post by xna on May 8, 2017 20:25:33 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 22:44:43 GMT -5
Wally you equally don't know if there is a god, your just going by a book written by man! If it said book came floating out of the sky with angel wings I would believe! But it was written by men like you and me! i'm 100% convinced there is as i am sure you are that there isn't.... What is it that convinces you 100% that your God exists outside of your head? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2017 23:58:04 GMT -5
i'm 100% convinced there is as i am sure you are that there isn't.... What is it that convinces you 100% that your God exists outside of your head? Matt10 The whole of creation and over a trillion "coincidences" and thats just our planet... my life and experiences... 1000's of testimonies and experiences... the testimonies of the 44 authors of the books of the bible... prophecies coming true... the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible... archaeologists confirming whats in the bible...
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 13:33:33 GMT -5
What is it that convinces you 100% that your God exists outside of your head? Matt10 The whole of creation and over a trillion "coincidences" and thats just our planet... my life and experiences... 1000's of testimonies and experiences... the testimonies of the 44 authors of the books of the bible... prophecies coming true... the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible... archaeologists confirming whats in the bible... So why do you think these things convince you 100% but yet don't convince me even 1% despite me having the same access to creation, the bible, other people's testimonies and experiences and of course my own life and experiences in the 2x2 church? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 15:06:13 GMT -5
The whole of creation and over a trillion "coincidences" and thats just our planet... my life and experiences... 1000's of testimonies and experiences... the testimonies of the 44 authors of the books of the bible... prophecies coming true... the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible... archaeologists confirming whats in the bible... So why do you think these things convince you 100% but yet don't convince me even 1% despite me having the same access to creation, the bible, other people's testimonies and experiences and of course my own life and experiences in the 2x2 church? Matt10 probably because you've blinded yourself with incorrect doctrine such as evilution, big bang etc...etc...you know you become what you feed on right?
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Post by snow on May 9, 2017 16:21:30 GMT -5
So why do you think these things convince you 100% but yet don't convince me even 1% despite me having the same access to creation, the bible, other people's testimonies and experiences and of course my own life and experiences in the 2x2 church? Matt10 probably because you've blinded yourself with incorrect doctrine such as evilution, big bang etc...etc...you know you become what you feed on right? Oh wow Wally, I know belief mindsets can be totally different, but for some reason it still amazes me just how different they can be. The evidence for evolution and the big bang are there and not incorrect imo. The bible's creation story is 100% incorrect imo. So totally different in our beliefs. I don't understand you but I do like you.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 9, 2017 21:26:12 GMT -5
What is it that convinces you 100% that your God exists outside of your head? Matt10 The whole of creation and over a trillion "coincidences" and thats just our planet... my life and experiences... 1000's of testimonies and experiences... the testimonies of the 44 authors of the books of the bible... prophecies coming true... the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible... archaeologists confirming whats in the bible... @wally, where can we find "the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible..." ?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 22:21:27 GMT -5
The whole of creation and over a trillion "coincidences" and thats just our planet... my life and experiences... 1000's of testimonies and experiences... the testimonies of the 44 authors of the books of the bible... prophecies coming true... the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible... archaeologists confirming whats in the bible... @wally , where can we find "the 7 or so times Christ is mentioned outside of the bible..." ? josephus julian tacticus the talmud thallus pliny lucian there are a couple more but i can't find them right now, you look for them using your google fu...
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Post by Roselyn T on May 10, 2017 1:23:29 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on May 10, 2017 4:16:09 GMT -5
Ros - this author Acharya S (real name Dorothy Murdock) hasn't been taken seriously. Her theories have been widely criticised and debunked by mainstream scholars. Bart D. Ehrman, who, isn't exactly a Christian apologist and I think from memory is an atheist in his book "Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth calls Murdock's The Christ Conspiracy "the breathless conspirator's dream". He says "all of Acharya's major points are in fact wrong" and her book "is filled with so many factual errors and outlandish assertions that it is hard to believe the author is serious." Taking her as representative of some other writers about the Christ myth theory, he continues "Mythicists of this ilk should not be surprised that their views are not taken seriously by real scholars, mentioned by experts in the field, or even read by them." Okay, will do some research ! Thank you Ross
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 12:55:13 GMT -5
So why do you think these things convince you 100% but yet don't convince me even 1% despite me having the same access to creation, the bible, other people's testimonies and experiences and of course my own life and experiences in the 2x2 church? Matt10 probably because you've blinded yourself with incorrect doctrine such as evilution, big bang etc...etc...you know you become what you feed on right? Of course you don't know what I feed on and if you did you'd know it certainly wasn't the Big Bang. I can only conclude therefore that you made that up. However It does raise the question as to whether your belief in your God is solely as a result of the things you feed on? Being brought up in a Christian environment, choosing to believe in the infallibility of the bible, spending hours and hours listening to the e princes and testimonies of people who believe in the same God, interpreting all your experiences through a Christian God filtered lens. Theres no evidence whatsoever that points to the Christian God having created the world just as there's no evidence that the Christian God is all powerful or loving. That kind of God only exists in the mind of the believer. Of course I have no doubt that the Christian God exists very much in your mind but not in mine which is why you are 100% convinced and I am a great big zero.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 13:20:43 GMT -5
probably because you've blinded yourself with incorrect doctrine such as evilution, big bang etc...etc...you know you become what you feed on right? Of course you don't know what I feed on and if you did you'd know it certainly wasn't the Big Bang. I can only conclude therefore that you made that up. However It does raise the question as to whether your belief in your God is solely as a result of the things you feed on? Being brought up in a Christian environment, choosing to believe in the infallibility of the bible, spending hours and hours listening to the e princes and testimonies of people who believe in the same God, interpreting all your experiences through a Christian God filtered lens. Theres no evidence whatsoever that points to the Christian God having created the world just as there's no evidence that the Christian God is all powerful or loving. That kind of God only exists in the mind of the believer. Of course I have no doubt that the Christian God exists very much in your mind but not in mine which is why you are 100% convinced and I am a great big zero. don't worry about it matt10 its a dry heat anyways...
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 16:29:53 GMT -5
The story of "Legion" demonstrates this.... Life without Christ was filled with madness living with the dead and demons spirits... Then he met Jesus his life filled with peace, happiness and contentment. I had lived a life like "Legion" filled with unrest and fill with demon spirits, and after I met Jesus my life filled with joy and peace. Note " The story" .... Note that parables are stories too.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 11, 2017 2:20:37 GMT -5
Of course you don't know what I feed on and if you did you'd know it certainly wasn't the Big Bang. I can only conclude therefore that you made that up. However It does raise the question as to whether your belief in your God is solely as a result of the things you feed on? Being brought up in a Christian environment, choosing to believe in the infallibility of the bible, spending hours and hours listening to the e princes and testimonies of people who believe in the same God, interpreting all your experiences through a Christian God filtered lens. Theres no evidence whatsoever that points to the Christian God having created the world just as there's no evidence that the Christian God is all powerful or loving. That kind of God only exists in the mind of the believer. Of course I have no doubt that the Christian God exists very much in your mind but not in mine which is why you are 100% convinced and I am a great big zero. don't worry about it matt10 its a dry heat anyways... What do you mean by dry heat?
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2017 12:28:17 GMT -5
What do you mean by dry heat? I wondered the same so thanks for asking the question Maybe its some comment relating to hell or something (I hope not...). its a line from everybody loves raymond which i find humorous... give the man a cigar...
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Post by snow on May 11, 2017 13:04:12 GMT -5
Have a T shirt I got in New Mexico with a couple of cowboy skeletons sitting on a couple of lounge chairs with a bottle of tanning lotion with the caption "But it's a dry heat..." Okay, you had to be there lol...
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Post by iamsaved on May 19, 2017 7:55:05 GMT -5
There is a woman who specialises in religious trauma syndrome, Marlene winnel, she brings up a lot of good points in her talks which one could find on YouTube
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Post by meerkat on May 19, 2017 16:48:33 GMT -5
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Post by meerkat on May 19, 2017 16:49:51 GMT -5
AA completely changed and saved my life
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2017 1:42:40 GMT -5
AA completely changed and saved my life I glad for you.
We are only saying that AA is not the only program that has results.
There are several secular organizations that have the same success rate.
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