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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 9:39:56 GMT -5
Does it happen? Claims that Workers are dismissed for preaching the Saving Grace of God are bogus. But could Ministers of the Cloth be dismissed for preaching Salvation by Works? Must happen, particularly if that preacher takes offense at how people in the world live.
James is the younger brother of Jesus. He spoke of Works. His writing is controversial. Many religious leaders, starting with Luther, tend to ignore the Epistle.
How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith. You believe in the one God - that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar? So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified. There is another example of the same kind: Rahab the prostitute, was she not justified by her deeds because she welcomed the messengers and showed them a different way to leave? As a body without a spirit is dead, so is faith without deeds.
WHOA... THIS IS POST 666 ....
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Post by blandie on May 2, 2017 12:27:15 GMT -5
Typical backwards thinking and this has been refuted many times but you stick to the twisted and selective readings of 2x2-ism's doctrines instead of considering what it actually says - it doesn't say that a person is dead or damned just because their faith is inactive or useless and it doesn't say that the person has to strive to produce the works and it doesn't say that the faith or works or justification comes from the person. No - faith and works and justification are provided for us and its never our faith or our works or our justification or our worthiness. The blasphemous arrogance of 2x2-ism is that it posits that we can - and must eventually - produce these things of ourselves.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 2, 2017 13:23:42 GMT -5
You do know that James and Paul denounced each other's teachings, don't you?
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Post by blandie on May 2, 2017 13:42:08 GMT -5
You do know that James and Paul denounced each other's teachings, don't you? Paul certainly feared as much but it turned out that some had distorted what paul was teaching about for whom circumcision wasn't required and it ended up that they were on the same page after all.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 2, 2017 13:45:01 GMT -5
You do know that James and Paul denounced each other's teachings, don't you? Paul certainly feared as much but it turned out that some had distorted what paul was teaching about for whom circumcision wasn't required and it ended up that they were on the same page after all. Good Protestant conjecture.
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Post by blandie on May 2, 2017 16:27:24 GMT -5
Good Protestant conjecture. Good catholic observation too - its what the bible says even if marcionites and others later started making more of it.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 16:57:23 GMT -5
Sister worker Marg Magowan was sacked for reaching out to excommunicated souls in Alberta also.
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Post by Admin on May 2, 2017 17:27:26 GMT -5
1. You jumped from Grace to Faith. James was talking about faith, your subject was Grace. 2. When the friends asked why SB was put out of the work, the head worker of the state answered "he preached the gospel of grace and not the truth". Heard this firsthand. But I know you're not a fan of actual evidence, so you'll never believe it anyway. Good pickup. We suspect that the anti-grace group conflate grace and faith. Just ask them, what exactly are their works, that make them so righteous?
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Post by fixit on May 2, 2017 18:03:40 GMT -5
1. You jumped from Grace to Faith. James was talking about faith, your subject was Grace. 2. When the friends asked why SB was put out of the work, the head worker of the state answered "he preached the gospel of grace and not the truth". Heard this firsthand. But I know you're not a fan of actual evidence, so you'll never believe it anyway. Good pickup. We suspect that the anti-grace group conflate grace and faith. Just ask them, what exactly are their works, that make them so righteous? Who on TMB is anti-grace?
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 18:51:16 GMT -5
Fake news??? Admin must have appended this. I am not aware of encountering "fake news" but hey, I wrote some !!!! Apparently. Actually, I was going to put a question mark on my thread's heading. But over the centuries many people have called for the removal of the book of James from the bible. Better to put it in the Apocrypha they said. James nearly didn't make it into our modern bibles. Quote from www.christiandataresources.com/jamescanon.htmConclusion: The book of James is canonical, but unfortunately it is simply misplaced. I have not done any Internet "home work" on this question of clerics being removed for preaching justification by works. They must be out there. Romans 6:14, " ...you are not under law, but under grace." Some think this negates works, half of what Paul wrote referred to works. Just as it did with Jesus. The translation of "Law" here is the rituals and legalisms of the Old Testament under which Jews still lived, ie offering sacrifice of animals for their sins. B.Wilson quote, "You do know that James and Paul denounced each other's teachings, don't you?'It comes down to definitions - which generally are avoided in any discussions.
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Post by fixit on May 2, 2017 20:26:16 GMT -5
Romans 6:14, " ...you are not under law, but under grace." Some think this negates works, half of what Paul wrote referred to works. Just as it did with Jesus. The translation of "Law" here is the rituals and legalisms of the Old Testament under which Jews still lived, ie offering sacrifice of animals for their sins. It would cover laws like "Females shall not attend convention unless they wear black stockings". Colossians 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 20:32:43 GMT -5
Are we talking about the same thing here? Paul repudiates "Works" Paul gives us "Works"
I can't go much into this because requests for definition of "Works" is never answered. But here's the "Works" figures I have so far:
GOSPELS:
23% of Matthew's Gospel is concerned with works.
20% of Mark's Gospel is concerned with works.
26% of Luke's Gospel is concerned with works.
8% of John's Gospel is concerned with works.
EPISTLES:
65% of Romans is concerned with works.
45% of Ephesians is concerned with works.
72% of Titus is concerned with works.
72% of 1 Corinthians is concerned with works.
48% of 2 Corinthians is concerned with works.
58% of Philippians' is concerned with works.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2017 20:37:39 GMT -5
Where do you get those numbers?
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 20:50:37 GMT -5
1. You jumped from Grace to Faith. James was talking about faith, your subject was Grace. 2. When the friends asked why SB was put out of the work, the head worker of the state answered "he preached the gospel of grace and not the truth". Heard this firsthand. But I know you're not a fan of actual evidence, so you'll never believe it anyway. I am a fan of truth, not "facts", not "evidence." Facts are what every salesman, politician and lawyer throw at you. Truth is about context - not selecting facts or cherry picking evidence.
Quote "he preached the gospel of grace and not the truth"
I have "evidence" that Workers preach the grace of God. It is a "fact" that Workers preach the saving grace of God.
See my "Candle in the Wind" thread, taken from Mary Higg, May 2016.
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 20:56:19 GMT -5
Works in Paul's Epistle Titus.
46 verses 13 verses are not works related 33 are work related. 72% works related.
Quotes from Paul to his younger companion Timothy concerning works.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Works Paul mentioned in Titus:
the husband of one wife having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. be blameless not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate Holding fast the faithful word sound doctrine exhort convince the gainsayers Not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things, love their husbands, love their children, be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands be sober minded. shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; be obedient unto their own masters, to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. live soberly, righteously, and godly Looking for that blessed hope redeem us from all iniquity, purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. affirm constantly, be careful to maintain good works. avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; let ours also learn to maintain good works be not unfruitful.
Titus is almost a to-do list of Works. Nearly three out of every four verses is about something you should do doing. Imagine if you met this man - how would you respond? Either, Paul contradicts himself, or our translation has Paul using Works in two different ways.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 2, 2017 20:58:43 GMT -5
BERT, you know something that is ludicrous is your new avatar trying to disparage and belittle a man that you never even knew & is now dead and cannot respond to your silliness.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 2, 2017 21:04:06 GMT -5
You do know that James and Paul denounced each other's teachings, don't you? Paul certainly feared as much but it turned out that some had distorted what paul was teaching about for whom circumcision wasn't required and it ended up that they were on the same page after all. Blandie,
Where do you find in the bible that "it turned out that some had distorted what Paul was teaching about for whom circumcision wasn't required and it ended up that they were on the same page after all."
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 21:11:19 GMT -5
When did our Reverend die? Did he use the Internet? Check out forums? Visit his children?
Parker never wore the liturgical dress of an Anglican Archbishop. The pose is symbolic of the authority of his church - and to us so-called 2x2's .... how silly they look.
I have been researching this man - what he wrote, who knew him, his own church etc.. Just getting the context which is missing from his book.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 2, 2017 21:37:46 GMT -5
When did our Reverend die? Did he use the Internet? Check out forums? Visit his children? Parker never wore the liturgical dress of an Anglican Archbishop. The pose is symbolic of the authority of his church - and to us so-called 2x2's .... how silly they look. I have been researching this man - what he wrote, who knew him, his own church etc.. Just getting the context which is missing from his book. As I repeat, Bert:
"BERT, you know something that is ludicrous is your new avatar trying to disparage and belittle a man that you never even knew & is now dead and cannot respond to your silliness."
If you are using it only to represent "symbolic of the authority of the Anglican church" yet you say that "Parker never wore the liturgical dress of an Anglican Archbishop," -then why do you have the name " Rev Parker " on it?
As for your "research" -I know before hand from other of your "research" that it will be woefully lackimg in any facts or sources.
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Post by PrueBert on May 2, 2017 23:16:24 GMT -5
Bert quote - "I am a fan of truth, not "facts", not "evidence." "
Ipsedexit quote - "By the standard of your first line, I can in good conscience reject anything you may say. Thanks!"
I thought to give you the next example of facts, evidence and truth, and it came within minutes of your post.
Pa Quote - "Paul was a Worker. I think he coined the term." Yes he made tents, so he knew how to work." My reply - "Thank you. You have presented a Perfect Example of a "fact" attempting to trump the "truth." When Paul wrote these words he wasn't thinking of tents. "He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building."
Oops... "rewarded according to his own labor" - there's that pesky "works" thing again.
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Post by blandie on May 3, 2017 1:13:05 GMT -5
Where do you find in the bible that "it turned out that some had distorted what Paul was teaching about for whom circumcision wasn't required and it ended up that they were on the same page after all." Well its not difficult to find the mentions about the interaction between james and paul and if you look at the relevant passages in Acts 15 and 21:18-25 and Galatian 2:9 all it says is that after the incident with peter that james and paul and the apostles met and agreed that the commandments from moses only applied to jewish believers and not to gentile believers - the gentiles were only covered under the covenant sealed with noah - and that it was some pharisees who were spreading that non-jews should also circumise and that paul was also telling jews not to circumcise and that went against what both paul and james and the apostles taught.
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Post by Grant on May 3, 2017 2:25:15 GMT -5
When did our Reverend die? Did he use the Internet? Check out forums? Visit his children? Parker never wore the liturgical dress of an Anglican Archbishop. The pose is symbolic of the authority of his church - and to us so-called 2x2's .... how silly they look. I have been researching this man - what he wrote, who knew him, his own church etc.. Just getting the context which is missing from his book. How silly they look? Bert, have you ever thought about how silly professing women look, especially female workers?
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Post by Grant on May 3, 2017 2:38:44 GMT -5
You are missing the point about works, Bert. No one is saying that works do not follow profession of faith. They are saying that works alone do not save but that faith produces deeds. It's Jesus death on the Cross which saved us not our own works. Belief in his life, death and resurrection saves us not our own works.
I remember the workers clearly condemning churches for their good works. Do you not see the good works that churches do in the community? I do not see your church helping the poor.
The type of works such as going out 2x2 and meeting in the home do not save. If we think it does then we are mistaken. The workers say that they are the sign that theirs is the true church and all others are false. Man's works do not save.
The fruits of the spirit are signs of a spirit lead life. Works produced from faith. Works without faith is dead. Jesus paid the great sacrifice. If we think our own works save us then we are mistaken.
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Post by PrueBert on May 3, 2017 4:58:18 GMT -5
Hey!!! On your link.... Quote - Graphics/Digital Designer - CMS NSW/ACT
What they pay? Or do they?
nb Not sure why a graphic artist is needed for the Gospel.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 3, 2017 6:00:27 GMT -5
Dear Bert,
You need to do some reading of Jerry Bridges. Seriously. He is man who loved the gospel and understands grace while constantly exhorting all believers to holiness in his writings.
Salvation by grace through faith must always lead to obedience to God's Word. All who believe in the gospel of grace know this. But obedience is the fruit, not the seed. It might be good to re-visit those biblical fruits of the spirit and see what God really expects to see in those who believe in him.
Your posts confuse me - you try to quote workers who have preached on grace to prove that they do, while belittling others who mention grace. What is it of your own good works that so esteems you before God and assures you of your own salvation?
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Post by PrueBert on May 3, 2017 7:20:57 GMT -5
Why do I have read secondary sources, and other people's opinions for what is clearly spelled out in scripture. Even more, lived out in scripture? Would this Jerry Bridges read anything I wrote? If he's a man of God then why is he writing books? Books become scripture in themselves. And there's thousands of titles out there, all saying different things about a book few even read these days.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 7:55:13 GMT -5
There but for the Grace of God go I. And now, let us pray. May the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all, now and for evermore. Amen.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 3, 2017 7:57:06 GMT -5
Jerry went to be with his Lord a few months ago. He had absolute assurance of where he was going, based on the righteousness of Christ, not his own merit. He lived out this belief as all who knew him would attest.
I would ask again - What is it of your own good works that so esteems you before God and assures you of your own salvation? Would those who know you attest to these good works?
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