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Post by iamsaved on Feb 17, 2017 6:57:43 GMT -5
Having just left meetings and believing they were the "only right ones" I am slowly beginning to realise I don't think I believe in the bible as literal fact, it's too far fetched. The loss of belief in meetings has hurt me and left scars of bitterness and anger, the friends aren't so friendly. I think I am done with church and religion. Mind you I would love a mate who could turn my glass of water into wine! All joking aside I am in a bad place
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 17, 2017 11:35:33 GMT -5
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Post by Grant on Feb 17, 2017 15:43:41 GMT -5
Leaving you will go through a lot of emotions. For many it is like going through a divorce. It is normal until you find a place of rest. Healing takes time. All the best in your journey.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Feb 17, 2017 15:54:15 GMT -5
Sorry you're going through turmoil. I believe this process will be temporary until you find the place where you are comfortable. I have gone through similar, very similar. I found my place. I believe God loves us. He loves us whether we belong to a certain group / denomination or not. He loves us whether we believe every word or not of a book written so long ago and translated multiple times over and over. My prayer is frequent but requires no one else's approval, critique, or rules. I hope you find your ideal place sooner than later.
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Post by iamsaved on Feb 17, 2017 16:05:02 GMT -5
Thank you for all your kind replies
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Post by Gene on Feb 17, 2017 20:20:34 GMT -5
A little different perspective: I've found my peace as well. Do the best you can to improve the lot of your neighbors - in the next room, the next house, and the next continent and beyond - both now, and forever.
I fail miserably in that pursuit, but it's still a worthy pursuit, and it continues to motivate me.
And the teachings of Jesus Christ support that point of view.
I have absolutely zero interest in eternal reward.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 4:17:24 GMT -5
Having just left meetings and believing they were the "only right ones" I am slowly beginning to realise I don't think I believe in the bible as literal fact, it's too far fetched. The loss of belief in meetings has hurt me and left scars of bitterness and anger, the friends aren't so friendly. I think I am done with church and religion. Mind you I would love a mate who could turn my glass of water into wine! All joking aside I am in a bad place The period between losing one's belief in 'the meetings' and losing one's belief in the bible can be very short indeed. My journey from 2x2 to complete non-believer only took a couple of weeks. At first I realised only that I had I been duped into believing the 2x2 malarkey but soon I realised that it wasn't just 2x2ism that I had been fooled into believing, but the bible itself. At first I was concerned only with the realisation that the 2x2 idea of apostolic succession was nothing but a complete fabrication but soon I also realised that parts of the bible itself were also a complete fabrication and in fact much of the bible was much more far fetched than the claims made by the 2x2 church. All that stuff about people turning into pillars of salt and dead people rising from graves after they'd been dead for days and dumb asses speaking and men ascending up into the sky actually made the workers' claims about their church's history seem little more than stretching the truth a bit. I'm almost beyond unbelief now and moving into disbelief that anyone can take the bible literally in the 21st century. And if these parts of the bible are so blatantly false, then how can we trust the rest of it? We can't. Of course once one starts to cast doubt on the reliability of the bible, one soon starts to doubt the reliability of what they've been taught about (the biblical) God. Without a belief in the bible it's very difficult to maintain one's belief in (the biblical) God. And once you start to lose your belief in (the biblical) God, your belief in other biblical things such as heaven and hell soon evaporate also ... which can be a bit of a relief really as you no longer have to worry about ending up in Satan's fiery pit. Indeed you soon realise that things such as the devil and the Islamic God and reincarnation and the only way and fairies and the Christian day of judgment only really exist if you believe in them. Once you quit believing in them they cease to be part of reality. And with unbelief comes a certain freedom in that one is no longer constrained by the need to fit the answers to difficult questions into a narrow religious narrative. If God really loves us why does he allow so much suffering in the world? Actually God doesn't really love you, in fact he doesn't give a hoot about you. That's why there was an Auschwitz. Why does God heal some people and not others? God doesn't actually heal anybody. Some people get healed as a result of nature or of modern medicine. Other people don't because of the nature of their condition or because they are unlucky or because their medical practitioner was hopeless. If the meetings really are the Only Way, why does God tend only to speak to the hearts of people who are related to existing 2x2 members? The 2x2 church is merely another man made church and most people only profess because of the conditioning they've been subject to during their upbringing. Without such conditioning one is very unlikely to sign up. Why can't the workers produce miracles as Jesus did? Workers are just regular blokes like the rest of us who happen to believe something rather peculiar. And it's questionable whether Jesus really did do any miracles or whether those who wrote the Gospels were just as easily duped as we were or simply made those things up. Why has Jesus not yet come back when he said he would return and 2000 years have now passed? Jesus isn't coming back. In fact he never actually went away. Why do some prayers work and some don't? Prayers don't work. This can easily be demonstrated by praying sincerely for your dog to come back to life after it's been cremated or for your arm to grow back after it's been wrenched off in a machinery accident. If your prayer ever seemed to have worked, this is because the event would have happened anyway whether you'd prayed or not. Welcome to the world of unbelief. Matt10
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Post by iamsaved on Feb 19, 2017 6:41:28 GMT -5
Thank you matt 10 I don't think I could have put it any better myself! As regards to the bible in Galatians it says the story of Abraham is an allegory(just a made up story) and if you look at family tree of jesus in the two gospels that it is written and compare them you find they are not even similar so it's a unreliable document so I cannot trust a book written by idiots!
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 19, 2017 11:07:08 GMT -5
Thank you matt 10 I don't think I could have put it any better myself! As regards to the bible in Galatians it says the story of Abraham is an allegory(just a made up story) and if you look at family tree of jesus in the two gospels that it is written and compare them you find they are not even similar so it's a unreliable document so I cannot trust a book written by idiots! Could you please provide the verse where it says this? Some Bible scholars theorize that one family tree of Jesus is that of Mary; and the other of Joseph...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 12:03:00 GMT -5
Thank you matt 10 I don't think I could have put it any better myself! As regards to the bible in Galatians it says the story of Abraham is an allegory(just a made up story) and if you look at family tree of jesus in the two gospels that it is written and compare them you find they are not even similar so it's a unreliable document so I cannot trust a book written by idiots! verse please from galatians that says abraham was made up... why the 2 geneologies in the bible are different is one is for joseph and the other is for mary...
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Post by iamsaved on Feb 19, 2017 15:03:04 GMT -5
Galatians 4v24
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 20:03:11 GMT -5
its talking about about how the promise and the flesh are an allegory not the actual people....
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 19, 2017 21:14:53 GMT -5
its talking about about how the promise and the flesh are an allegory not the actual people.... That's what he said !!!! It's an allegory, or "taken figuratively" (NIV).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 22:22:34 GMT -5
its talking about about how the promise and the flesh are an allegory not the actual people.... That's what he said !!!! It's an allegory, or "taken figuratively" (NIV). no, he suggested abraham is the allegory and thats not what the verse is talking about....
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 19, 2017 22:37:32 GMT -5
That's what he said !!!! It's an allegory, or "taken figuratively" (NIV). no, he suggested abraham is the allegory and thats not what the verse is talking about.... No he didn't. He said the "story of Abraham" is an allegory.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2017 22:43:07 GMT -5
no, he suggested abraham is the allegory and thats not what the verse is talking about.... No he didn't. He said the "story of Abraham" is an allegory. which suggests abraham would not have really existed and thats not what is being said in that verse...
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 19, 2017 22:50:54 GMT -5
It seems you are struggling with literal meanings found in the Bible. RE: allegory...
Vine’s Definition of allegory (Strongs No. 238): The facts presented are applied to illustrate principles. The allegorical meaning doesn’t do away with the literal meaning of the narrative.
Most Bibles are translated from the Greek. This can sometimes create a challenge in translation. A better way is to go straight to the Hebrew translation:
Peschitta: “Therefore, these things were symbolic of two covenants.” (direct translation from Hebrew)
NIV: “these things are being taken figuratively: the women represent two covenants.”
KJV taken from the Greek: "are an allegory"
Phillips: "This can be regarded as an allegory."
Some Bible translations versions: “contain an allegory” and there are various other translations of this verse.
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Post by ant_rotten on Feb 20, 2017 4:47:00 GMT -5
Having just left meetings and believing they were the "only right ones" I am slowly beginning to realise I don't think I believe in the bible as literal fact, it's too far fetched. The loss of belief in meetings has hurt me and left scars of bitterness and anger, the friends aren't so friendly. I think I am done with church and religion. Mind you I would love a mate who could turn my glass of water into wine! All joking aside I am in a bad place Over time, you will realize that leaving the 2x2's was the best decision you've ever made. Imagine a life free of stupid restrictions, a life where you can discover who you really are without being ridiculed by "friends". The future is yours. Live it 😊
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Post by iamsaved on Feb 20, 2017 13:26:45 GMT -5
Yeah it has been a struggle to break free of this sect, it's a pity we have to take one books word for it to know truth, we are relying on the writers, lets face it if overseer in ireland wrote a book there is only one use I would find for it!!! I certainly wouldn't take his word for it! It is not my intention to offend anyone, just mad at wasting part of my life listening to fools like gamble, milligan and co
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2017 17:59:26 GMT -5
Yeah it has been a struggle to break free of this sect, it's a pity we have to take one books word for it to know truth, we are relying on the writers, lets face it if overseer in ireland wrote a book there is only one use I would find for it!!! I certainly wouldn't take his word for it! It is not my intention to offend anyone, just mad at wasting part of my life listening to fools like gamble, milligan and co The 'wasting your life' thing is a perfectly natural reaction. Hopefully it will soon pass. I expect it will. This irked me too at one time but then I came to realise that I was actually pretty fortunate. Some people I knew continued to embrace the 2x2 belief system until well into their retirement before realising they'd been wasting their life while others went the whole hog and forsook everything to dedicate their life to the 2x2 preaching lark. I still wake up in the night screaming at the thought of anyone sacrificing their entire youth in exchange for the rather peculiar life of a 2x2 preacher before realising in middle age or beyond that the 2x2 belief system was essentially a farce. My heart even threatens to weep now just thinking about it. Then there's also the issue of having been fooled into believing the 2x2 malarkey to deal with. That one can be more difficult to come to terms with. However it can help to realise that half the population has been conditioned into believing some form of religious tomfoolery. It's only through accident of birth that one ends up with the 2x2 version. In Ireland it could just as easily have been Methodism or Catholicism or, God forbid, Free Presbyterianism. At least you appear to be ridding yourself of two flawed religious beliefs in one go. A 'two for the price of one' kind of deal does make a lot of sense. For me quitting the 2x2 church while still retaining a belief in a God who doesn't think twice about slaughtering an entire nation of first born children or who will willingly cast into everlasting hell all those who do not believe in Him doesn't seem much of a step forward. Matt10
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Post by Gene on Feb 20, 2017 19:06:20 GMT -5
Yeah it has been a struggle to break free of this sect, it's a pity we have to take one books word for it to know truth, we are relying on the writers, lets face it if overseer in ireland wrote a book there is only one use I would find for it!!! I certainly wouldn't take his word for it! It is not my intention to offend anyone, just mad at wasting part of my life listening to fools like gamble, milligan and co The 'wasting your life' thing is a perfectly natural reaction. Hopefully it will soon pass. I expect it will. This irked me too at one time but then I came to realise that I was actually pretty fortunate. Some people I knew continued to embrace the 2x2 belief system until well into their retirement before realising they'd been wasting their life while others went the whole hog and forsook everything to dedicate their life to the 2x2 preaching lark. I still wake up in the night screaming at the thought of anyone sacrificing their entire youth in exchange for the rather peculiar life of a 2x2 preacher before realising in middle age or beyond that the 2x2 belief system was essentially a farce. My heart even threatens to weep now just thinking about it. Then there's also the issue of having been fooled into believing the 2x2 malarkey to deal with. That one can be more difficult to come to terms with. However it can help to realise that half the population has been conditioned into believing some form of religious tomfoolery. It's only through accident of birth that one ends up with the 2x2 version. In Ireland it could just as easily have been Methodism or Catholicism or, God forbid, Free Presbyterianism. At least you appear to be ridding yourself of two flawed religious beliefs in one go. A 'two for the price of one' kind of deal does make a lot of sense. For me quitting the 2x2 church while still retaining a belief in a God who doesn't think twice about slaughtering an entire nation of first born children or who will willingly cast into everlasting hell all those who do not believe in Him doesn't seem much of a step forward. Matt10 I was one of those who could consider myself to have wasted my life from age 19 to 29+ to that preaching lark. But, I don't. The experience of becoming an adult while immersed in the church as a 2x2 preacher was a positive experience in so many ways. Specifically, it thrust me into a vast array of interpersonal relationships that I cannot imagine having experienced in any other way. I traveled extensively throughout Texas and other States and spent all of my time as a welcome guest in the homes of believers. Yes, we had our faith in common. But in so many other ways, we were diverse in thought, experience, heritage, politics, culture, and culinary tradition. I found it vastly enriching, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. Of course I missed out on a lot, too. But all told, I have no regrets.
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Post by ellie on Feb 20, 2017 21:32:10 GMT -5
Yeah it has been a struggle to break free of this sect, it's a pity we have to take one books word for it to know truth, we are relying on the writers, lets face it if overseer in ireland wrote a book there is only one use I would find for it!!! I certainly wouldn't take his word for it! It is not my intention to offend anyone, just mad at wasting part of my life listening to fools like gamble, milligan and co FWIW for me, every so often when I hear of a family/friend’s meeting related angst I’ll wonder why I put myself through meetings for so long. When it comes down to it though I did or believed what I knew how to do/believe at the time, and I’m not mad at myself for that. Not all of it was bad either. I certainly don’t miss the holier than thou folk, missions or long Sunday lunches all dressed up in meetings clothes with people we had little in common with for example. However the café Sunday lunches with salt of the earth professing people was time well spent. If I had of walked away at 18 for example I wouldn’t have put any thought into it and I might have had what ifs about heaven or hell and who knows what other unfinished ends later on. At this age I have no doubts and have been able to use the exit to try a few new things and divert more time and energy to the things which are meaningful for me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 12:51:29 GMT -5
The 'wasting your life' thing is a perfectly natural reaction. Hopefully it will soon pass. I expect it will. This irked me too at one time but then I came to realise that I was actually pretty fortunate. Some people I knew continued to embrace the 2x2 belief system until well into their retirement before realising they'd been wasting their life while others went the whole hog and forsook everything to dedicate their life to the 2x2 preaching lark. I still wake up in the night screaming at the thought of anyone sacrificing their entire youth in exchange for the rather peculiar life of a 2x2 preacher before realising in middle age or beyond that the 2x2 belief system was essentially a farce. My heart even threatens to weep now just thinking about it. Then there's also the issue of having been fooled into believing the 2x2 malarkey to deal with. That one can be more difficult to come to terms with. However it can help to realise that half the population has been conditioned into believing some form of religious tomfoolery. It's only through accident of birth that one ends up with the 2x2 version. In Ireland it could just as easily have been Methodism or Catholicism or, God forbid, Free Presbyterianism. At least you appear to be ridding yourself of two flawed religious beliefs in one go. A 'two for the price of one' kind of deal does make a lot of sense. For me quitting the 2x2 church while still retaining a belief in a God who doesn't think twice about slaughtering an entire nation of first born children or who will willingly cast into everlasting hell all those who do not believe in Him doesn't seem much of a step forward. Matt10 I was one of those who could consider myself to have wasted my life from age 19 to 29+ to that preaching lark. But, I don't. The experience of becoming an adult while immersed in the church as a 2x2 preacher was a positive experience in so many ways. Specifically, it thrust me into a vast array of interpersonal relationships that I cannot imagine having experienced in any other way. I traveled extensively throughout Texas and other States and spent all of my time as a welcome guest in the homes of believers. Yes, we had our faith in common. But in so many other ways, we were diverse in thought, experience, heritage, politics, culture, and culinary tradition. I found it vastly enriching, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. Of course I missed out on a lot, too. But all told, I have no regrets. Of course I realise that not everyone will have the same experience and there will be those who don't have regrets just as not everyone who gets divorced regrets having been married nor everyone who spends time in prison thinks there was no value in it. My intention wasn't to say whether or not being a 2x2 preacher is a good way to spend your youth (although obviously I wouldn't recommend it) or how a spell as a 2x2 worker can enrich your life. It was to recognise that there are those who do come to a point where they realise that their sojourn in the 2x2 church has been a complete waste of their life and that it is perfectly acceptable way to feel like that. Perhaps it's also a timely reminder to anyone thinking of signing up to be a 2x2 worker to do so with their eyes wide open because if you do invest 20 or 30 years of your life as a tool of the 2x2 system before realising that the system is flawed, you cannot buy back your lost youth. I think there's likely a big difference in quitting at 29 than there is at 49 or 59. I feel I should end here with a few verses of that hymn about the days of youth and remembering that wasted years shall come again no more but I can no longer remember the words. Matt10
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Post by Gene on Feb 21, 2017 13:42:16 GMT -5
I was one of those who could consider myself to have wasted my life from age 19 to 29+ to that preaching lark. But, I don't. The experience of becoming an adult while immersed in the church as a 2x2 preacher was a positive experience in so many ways. Specifically, it thrust me into a vast array of interpersonal relationships that I cannot imagine having experienced in any other way. I traveled extensively throughout Texas and other States and spent all of my time as a welcome guest in the homes of believers. Yes, we had our faith in common. But in so many other ways, we were diverse in thought, experience, heritage, politics, culture, and culinary tradition. I found it vastly enriching, and I wouldn't trade those years for anything. Of course I missed out on a lot, too. But all told, I have no regrets. Of course I realise that not everyone will have the same experience and there will be those who don't have regrets just as not everyone who gets divorced regrets having been married nor everyone who spends time in prison thinks there was no value in it. My intention wasn't to say whether or not being a 2x2 preacher is a good way to spend your youth (although obviously I wouldn't recommend it) or how a spell as a 2x2 worker can enrich your life. It was to recognise that there are those who do come to a point where they realise that their sojourn in the 2x2 church has been a complete waste of their life and that it is perfectly acceptable way to feel like that. Perhaps it's also a timely reminder to anyone thinking of signing up to be a 2x2 worker to do so with their eyes wide open because if you do invest 20 or 30 years of your life as a tool of the 2x2 system before realising that the system is flawed, you cannot buy back your lost youth. I think there's likely a big difference in quitting at 29 than there is at 49 or 59. I feel I should end here with a few verses of that hymn about the days of youth and remembering that wasted years shall come again no more but I can no longer remember the words. Matt10 Agreed.
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Post by lifeafter2x2 on Jun 19, 2017 17:25:12 GMT -5
Lost my belief many years ago- a very hard decision to leave (I never professed ) as I had to ultimately chose between my family and my worldly ways at 18 ! I chose to leave. I was disowned by my family and moved out of home. I don't want to go into detail I had a loving family life up until then but I wanted worldly things including a career. I could not understand the hypocrisy of other so called professing friends who led a double life (I didn't and chose to leave than do so) and to only find out recently after many years from the internet of all places who and what my past was and indeed finally a label/name ! Finally I can have closure and put 2 and 2 together (no pun intended) and move on in my chosen path without shame.
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Post by revelat10n on Jun 19, 2017 18:17:39 GMT -5
Yeah it has been a struggle to break free of this sect, it's a pity we have to take one books word for it to know truth, we are relying on the writers, lets face it if overseer in ireland wrote a book there is only one use I would find for it!!! I certainly wouldn't take his word for it! It is not my intention to offend anyone, just mad at wasting part of my life listening to fools like gamble, milligan and co I am so sorry to hear you are in a bad place. From what I can see on these boards it's not uncommon to go from 2x2 to no belief. That makes me personally sad, but I can relate as I felt like that was one of my options by the time the 2x2 church had completely worn me out and discouraged me. "What was the point of all this drudgery", I thought, "What is the point of Jesus, when I have to do all the work?". I'm so thankful that God has completely restored my faith in Him, and shown me how Jesus has finished the work of salvation for me. I encourage you to read "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Someone gave it to me when I was leaving and it has some amazing perspectives on the historical veracity of the Bible. I've noticed that compared to Christian churches, the "friends" in the 2x2 church barely believe the bible themselves. They do not take many things in the bible as they are written, instead make up stories & explanations to suit their beliefs. I think this alone erodes a person's faith in the scripture. If you only believe some of it, it's not a step too far to decide it's all rubbish. I'll pray God will restore your faith in Him, any faith in the 2x2 way was from the pit of hell to keep you discouraged and deceived.
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Post by xna on Jun 19, 2017 18:38:43 GMT -5
Having just left meetings and believing they were the "only right ones" I am slowly beginning to realise I don't think I believe in the bible as literal fact, it's too far fetched. The loss of belief in meetings has hurt me and left scars of bitterness and anger, the friends aren't so friendly. I think I am done with church and religion. Mind you I would love a mate who could turn my glass of water into wine! All joking aside I am in a bad place Have a glass of wine and check out this site for; a good books, podcasts, blog, local support groups, free call line, etc. www.recoveringfromreligion.org/
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2017 13:05:50 GMT -5
iamsaved leaving a belief system is a death to old way and it's hard at first. But if possible don't look at it as wasted time. It is an experience that has made you who you are today and it will serve you well if you let it. There are bad things about being in religion but there are also good things. Focus on the good things, the good memories and let go of the belief at the same time. In the end I have found so much peace and freedom from having to worry about having a faith strong enough to believe the unbelievable. The bible is a book written by men who like most of humanity, were just trying to figure out the meaning of life and it's based on their limited understanding of the world. I don't condemn that but rather see it as a journey mankind has made to this day when we can look at things written there and understand exactly what they are trying to do. All the best to you in your choices and your journey. I am sure anyone here that has gone through it into non belief would be willing to PM with you when you feel you need support.
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