bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 22, 2016 5:34:07 GMT -5
When your boots are on the ground in these cases, it is almost always an extremely difficult decision to report when we suspect abuse. The reason is that we rarely witness the abuse directly. We see small behavioural signs, we have hunches, feelings and at the same time, know that we have nothing that is legally actionable. Anyone dealing with child abuse states that suspicion alone is reason enough to report abuse to authorities. In most locations he is mandated to report it. I don't know of any locations where someone is mandated to report the suspicions of other people but perhaps you have looked into it and verified that.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2016 7:05:01 GMT -5
Anyone dealing with child abuse states that suspicion alone is reason enough to report abuse to authorities. In most locations he is mandated to report it. I don't know of any locations where someone is mandated to report the suspicions of other people but perhaps you have looked into it and verified that. If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "C" is abusing children and person "A" believes person "B" then there is suspicion.
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 22, 2016 8:04:18 GMT -5
I don't know of any locations where someone is mandated to report the suspicions of other people but perhaps you have looked into it and verified that. If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "C" is abusing children and person "A" believes person "B" then there is suspicion. If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "B" suspects person "C" is abusing children, then person "A" is not obliged to report the suspicion of person "B".......only their own suspicion. At least that is how it works in our jurisdiction. Maybe in other places it is different.
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Post by jondough on Jul 22, 2016 9:15:38 GMT -5
I don't know of any locations where someone is mandated to report the suspicions of other people but perhaps you have looked into it and verified that. If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "C" is abusing children and person "A" believes person "B" then there is suspicion. It could get ridiculous. Let's say person A tells person B, Person B tells person C, Person C tell person D who lives in another City. Person D tells person E in his/her same city. Is person E required to report?
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2016 9:16:30 GMT -5
If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "C" is abusing children and person "A" believes person "B" then there is suspicion. If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "B" suspects person "C" is abusing children, then person "A" is not obliged to report the suspicion of person "B".......only their own suspicion. At least that is how it works in our jurisdiction. Maybe in other places it is different. The report from person "C" may well be the foundation of "B"'s suspicion. From a publication at childwelfare.gov: Standards for Making a Report The circumstances under which a mandatory reporter must make a report vary from State to State. Typically, a report must be made when the reporter, in his or her official capacity, suspects or has reason to believe that a child has been abused or neglected. Another standard frequently used is in situations in which the reporter has knowledge of, or observes a child being subjected to, conditions that would reasonably result in harm to the child. In Maine, a mandatory reporter must report when he or she has reasonable cause to suspect that a child is not living with the child’s family. Sounds like people need to apply some judgement!
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2016 9:18:51 GMT -5
If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "C" is abusing children and person "A" believes person "B" then there is suspicion. It could get ridiculous. Let's say person A tells person B, Person B tells person C, Person C tell person D who lives in another City. Person D tells person E in his/her same city. Is person E required to report? It could. I have often wondered when reading here about the people how claimed knowledge of acts of abuse simply spreading it as gossip rather than reporting their suspicions to the authorities. Makes you wonder why "C" and "D" from the above example did not report the crime.
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 22, 2016 9:29:34 GMT -5
If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "B" suspects person "C" is abusing children, then person "A" is not obliged to report the suspicion of person "B".......only their own suspicion. At least that is how it works in our jurisdiction. Maybe in other places it is different. The report from person "C" may well be the foundation of "B"'s suspicion. From a publication at childwelfare.gov: Standards for Making a Report The circumstances under which a mandatory reporter must make a report vary from State to State. Typically, a report must be made when the reporter, in his or her official capacity, suspects or has reason to believe that a child has been abused or neglected. Another standard frequently used is in situations in which the reporter has knowledge of, or observes a child being subjected to, conditions that would reasonably result in harm to the child. In Maine, a mandatory reporter must report when he or she has reasonable cause to suspect that a child is not living with the child’s family. Sounds like people need to apply some judgement! "Reason to believe" or "reasonable cause" is what gives rise to reportable suspicion. Here, all citizens are required to report their suspicions of child abuse. They are not required to report rumours or hearsay.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 16:13:53 GMT -5
If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "B" suspects person "C" is abusing children, then person "A" is not obliged to report the suspicion of person "B".......only their own suspicion. At least that is how it works in our jurisdiction. Maybe in other places it is different. The report from person "C" may well be the foundation of "B"'s suspicion. From a publication at childwelfare.gov: Standards for Making a Report The circumstances under which a mandatory reporter must make a report vary from State to State. Typically, a report must be made when the reporter, in his or her official capacity, suspects or has reason to believe that a child has been abused or neglected. Another standard frequently used is in situations in which the reporter has knowledge of, or observes a child being subjected to, conditions that would reasonably result in harm to the child. In Maine, a mandatory reporter must report when he or she has reasonable cause to suspect that a child is not living with the child’s family. Sounds like people need to apply some judgement! Precisely, hear say is rumour and rumour may or may not be genuine it might be malicious, so judgement should be applied.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2016 20:28:55 GMT -5
"Reason to believe" or "reasonable cause" is what gives rise to reportable suspicion. Here, all citizens are required to report their suspicions of child abuse. They are not required to report rumours or hearsay. Sounds like you are saying that a person would not suspect child abuse based on the report of another. There are many reasons why a person who knows about child abuse may feel they cannot go to the authorities but instead report to another individual. Say a close friend. Or an overseer. Or a priest. Not enough to report?
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 23, 2016 0:06:49 GMT -5
"Reason to believe" or "reasonable cause" is what gives rise to reportable suspicion. Here, all citizens are required to report their suspicions of child abuse. They are not required to report rumours or hearsay. Sounds like you are saying that a person would not suspect child abuse based on the report of another. There are many reasons why a person who knows about child abuse may feel they cannot go to the authorities but instead report to another individual. Say a close friend. Or an overseer. Or a priest. Not enough to report? You are leaping to conclusions, bordering on the weird and I don't know how to make it simpler for you. If you suspect child abuse, you report. If you do not suspect child abuse, you do not report. Forget the legal aspect, it is a fundamental human moral duty. Legally, if you do not suspect, you are not required to report. Of course, that pertains to my jurisdiction, I don't know about yours. As far as someone who does suspect but does nothing, that is entirely another discussion and is illegal for all citizens in my jurisdiction. Have you suspected and declined to report? If so, what were your reasons for not reporting? Again, if so, do you feel bad about it?
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Post by rational on Jul 23, 2016 14:50:26 GMT -5
You are leaping to conclusions, bordering on the weird and I don't know how to make it simpler for you. If you suspect child abuse, you report. If you do not suspect child abuse, you do not report. Forget the legal aspect, it is a fundamental human moral duty. Legally, if you do not suspect, you are not required to report. Of course, that pertains to my jurisdiction, I don't know about yours. I was responding to: If person "A" hears from person "B" that person "B" suspects person "C" is abusing children, then person "A" is not obliged to report the suspicion of person "B".......only their own suspicion. At least that is how it works in our jurisdiction. Maybe in other places it is different. This would allow an overseer who was told by a person that they suspected a family of abusing their children to not report the incident. When I worked in that field, I was a mandated reporter and filed a number of Child Abuse & Neglect forms with DCS. The rules are very clear - if you know or suspect child abuse you file a 51-A. But mandated reporter or not, if I suspect child abuse I will still file with the appropriate authorities. If there was child abuse in the case of the former worker (username Alexander) I do feel badly that I did not pick up on it during my conversations with him.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2016 8:09:22 GMT -5
I am personally 99% sure current workers knew about this in some aspect. Friends as well. You just don't start sexually abusing people out of the blue. These both were EX-Workers. Hoping for a full investigation. Wow. This is stunning. I'd guess no one here would have suspected this for the reasons Cherie already mentioned. Daniel posted here, a lot. And got a lot of support from people here. Workers might not have suspected this either, or knew about it for the same reasons.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2016 8:45:37 GMT -5
Another appropriately titled thread; "Tears" So sad for everyone involved. Hope and prayers for healing.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 25, 2016 2:37:01 GMT -5
what about the children? I'm sure state has the foster children debriefing them. What about their natural children?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2016 16:39:37 GMT -5
Obviously Daniel posted the best photo he could find of his family,so this photo's tells me nothing.I would be supersized if their foster/adopted children would just lie about the abuse, usually that is not the case.
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Post by faune on Jul 25, 2016 17:46:27 GMT -5
The dysfunctional behavior described in the police reports and news articles I read earlier made me wonder about the environment that both of these folks grew up in themselves. This behavior was learned somewhere, for sure! I truly doubt many of the friends practice such behavior, but no doubt it is prevalent in SOME dysfunctional homes within the 2x2's, which I have read about in the past. I feel for the children who are exposed to such emotional and physical trauma as well as child sexual abuse deserve better. I trust the truth will come out and justice will be done in this case, too. When parents feel justified in abusing children, I cannot help but wonder if there is a mental disorder involved here, too? Here's one comment regarding this latest incident which I read on Facebook today which seems to describe my own feelings about this matter. ~
"It is behavior by individuals who may have particular personality quirks or be mentally unstable or both. And they may have reinforced each other."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 25, 2016 18:44:54 GMT -5
I am personally 99% sure current workers knew about this in some aspect. Friends as well. You just don't start sexually abusing people out of the blue. These both were EX-Workers. Hoping for a full investigation. Wow. This is stunning. I'd guess no one here would have suspected this for the reasons Cherie already mentioned. Daniel posted here, a lot. And got a lot of support from people here. Workers might not have suspected this either, or knew about it for the same reasons. It would be interesting why they both left the work...whether overseer advice or their own reasons. What been given isn't likely the whole truth.. The thing that that is now is abhorent in reality IF its true OR even IF children have hatched up a case against them. Kinda like the MI twins did. But the truth eventually wins out. I can't understand why DMS allowed them so many foster kids in top of their own.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 25, 2016 19:18:32 GMT -5
Daniel told why he left the work somewhere on TMB. If I recall correctly, he was in the work about 4 years when he was pretty young. There were several young workers about the same age who entered the work about the same time in Alabama about the time he did. I know 2 of them are no longer in the work or in meetings. ts is one of them. I think Daniel said something like he just wasnt cut out for it.
I never heard of his wife until he married her, so know nothing about her. I think there's a picture of her on his FB on a boat.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 25, 2016 19:32:13 GMT -5
Obviously Daniel posted the best photo he could find of his family,so this photo's tells me nothing.I would be supersized if their foster/adopted children would just lie about the abuse, usually that is not the case. Obviously you weren't around during the Michigan Russian twins episode. Two female professing twins about 17-18 lied and took down the reputations of about 50 workers and friends they said had sex with them; caused financial ruin for some having to defend themselves; divided the entire state; caused 2 sister workers to leave the work, friends took sides. Their siblings were taken away from their professing parents, their parents were excommunicated over the matter and their elderly grandparents meeting was taken away...I doubt Michigan has healed yet and probably never will... It went to court and the twins finally admitted to lying about the whole thing. Before this, the twins were hoping to go in the work. This saga all took place over about 2 years time. Some male workers were suspended; an elderly one was involuntarily retired. So much agony and pain...I was a WINGS group member then, and we followed it closely. It's all on TMB somewhere and probably the WINGS Forum too. It's bcs of this that some of us are very reluctant to believe what the young girls are saying...without further proof and prefer to withhold judgment...especially as we feel we knew the father pretty well through TMB. He posted tons about his life and how the F&W were mistreating, shunning he and his family--but may have deleted some of it. They were pushed out of meetings--yet they still wanted to go. What happened to them is called a "spiritual killing." I urge everyone not to be hasty in judging or condemning...til the investigation and facts are all known. Save
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 26, 2016 0:29:06 GMT -5
Daniel told why he left the work somewhere on TMB. If I recall correctly, he was in the work about 4 years when he was pretty young. There were several young workers about the same age who entered the work about the same time in Alabama about the time he did. I know 2 of them are no longer in the work or in meetings. ts is one of them. I think Daniel said something like he just wasnt cut out for it. I never heard of his wife until he married her, so know nothing about her. I think there's a picture of her on his FB on a boat. Her excuse for leaving the work was shed contracted some illness due to harsh conditions in the Dominican Repiblic. A relative spent 20 some years in the work in the French West Indies and had said Dominican Republic was most modern compared to other of the island with Haiti being of the worst. She was always glad to be sent to The Dominican because it was far easier to get decent batches and easier to travel around neighbothoods for gospel MTG. So she has reported nearly the dire opposite though she could have been sent to Haiti in those years.
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Post by faune on Jul 26, 2016 5:45:17 GMT -5
Daniel told why he left the work somewhere on TMB. If I recall correctly, he was in the work about 4 years when he was pretty young. There were several young workers about the same age who entered the work about the same time in Alabama about the time he did. I know 2 of them are no longer in the work or in meetings. ts is one of them. I think Daniel said something like he just wasnt cut out for it. I never heard of his wife until he married her, so know nothing about her. I think there's a picture of her on his FB on a boat. Yes, TS was a close friend of his and I believe the friend that Nathan referred to in his previous post who introduced Daniel to his wife. There is also a picture of his wife in mug shots photos of both in newspaper article referenced at beginning of this thread by leader. Whatever happened to TS who also posted a lot on this board in the past?
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Post by faune on Jul 26, 2016 5:49:22 GMT -5
Wow. This is stunning. I'd guess no one here would have suspected this for the reasons Cherie already mentioned. Daniel posted here, a lot. And got a lot of support from people here. Workers might not have suspected this either, or knew about it for the same reasons. I remember Daniel's writing many posts on here with different names, he was very good, with a nice personality, in convincing others to take his side, about his family situation and people fell sorry for him how mistreated he was by some workers. He fooled a lot of people. We can't judge a book by it covers sometimes.
Yes. She was in the work for 4 years. She was in the work in the states for a couple years and then the Dominican Republic. She almost died in the Dominican Republic after having contracted some kind of disease and left the work then. But, she has always only spoken favorably of her days in the work and she especially loved her time in the Dominican Republic- even though the conditions there were so impoverished and the workers themselves live in very harsh conditions. I met her after I had left the work at a mutual friends house. We had never met before. We married a few months afterward and have been happily married for 18 years. An elder and some other friends did get involved and asked me many questions before we got married- by the gist of the questions it did seem that the rumor was going around that she had seduced me and that was keeping me from going back into the work. I was also given friendly advice by an overseer not to have anything to do with her or her friend that we had met through. Thankfully, I didn't follow his advice. My wife is the best mom that I have ever seen. She is quite literally the epitome of the virtuous woman.
She is well known in the community for her selfless devotion to her family (which includes our foster kids). It is too bad that our friends in the fellowship in our area were poisoned against her. They are missing out on knowing a real jewel of God. PS- to those of her friends that have called and emailed encouragement to her after reading about our experience on the TMB- thank you. Stop and think Sharon. You only have one side of the story and you are basing your conclusions on that. In every day arithmetic 3+x/y =10 really gives you no clue as to what the actual values of x and y are. You can guess but you don't know. You really don't even know what she does appreciate and what she does not appreciate. As I have said - I believe there is more to the story. Alexander was her former worker married son before he moved to her Sunday morning meeting. Why would the gossip start at that point? I am guessing it had been going on long before that point. Perhaps it was brought to a head by the requests/demands that Alexander made regarding how he wanted his children to be treated. Perhaps it was putting a little too much meaning into someone saying that some of the children looked uncared for. Whatever the reason, we are only hearing one side. And when someone posted what they had heard from other sources it was denied. I just hope and pray that they can find professional help for him, his wife and beautiful, lovely children through this horrendous ordeal.
Nathan ~ Was Sacerdotal another one of Daniel's usernames in the past along with Alexander given earlier?
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Post by jondough on Jul 26, 2016 8:00:48 GMT -5
Yes, TS was a close friend of his and I believe the friend that Nathan referred to in his previous post who introduced Daniel to his wife. There is also a picture of his wife in mug shots photos of both in newspaper article referenced at beginning of this thread by leader. Whatever happened to TS who also posted a lot on this board in the past? TS, contacted me not too long ago, he was and is posting with different names also. I enjoy reading his posts.I wonder why people change user names? I understand when they deleted their membership, then decide to post again, but some have multiple active names. Can anyone explain why?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 26, 2016 8:40:13 GMT -5
Daniel told why he left the work somewhere on TMB. If I recall correctly, he was in the work about 4 years when he was pretty young. There were several young workers about the same age who entered the work about the same time in Alabama about the time he did. I know 2 of them are no longer in the work or in meetings. ts is one of them. I think Daniel said something like he just wasnt cut out for it. I never heard of his wife until he married her, so know nothing about her. I think there's a picture of her on his FB on a boat. Her excuse for leaving the work was shed contracted some illness due to harsh conditions in the Dominican Repiblic. A relative spent 20 some years in the work in the French West Indies and had said Dominican Republic was most modern compared to other of the island with Haiti being of the worst. She was always glad to be sent to The Dominican because it was far easier to get decent batches and easier to travel around neighbothoods for gospel MTG. So she has reported nearly the dire opposite though she could have been sent to Haiti in those years. Tim Jones Worker Tracking List shows:Jenise (Johnson) Spurgeon entered the work in Ohio in 1987; was in OH for 1988, 1989 - left work in 1991. Last 2 years was working out of the country. Daniel Spurgeon was in the work from 1988 - 1992 in AL, MS and GASave
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 26, 2016 9:10:42 GMT -5
TS, contacted me not too long ago, he was and is posting with different names also. I enjoy reading his posts. That's odd - ts wrote me the opposite this past Sunday, July 24: "I am done posting on TMB"
When I asked what caused him to make this decision he emailed me a long post about why he's finished with TMB. My nutshell take from his explanation was that he came to the place where he determined it was more important to do whatever it takes to keep a soft heart and being attentive to the Holy Spirit. He realized that being on TMB was making his heart somewhat hard, and that prevented the Holy Spirit from working fully in him, so he left TMB for good. He is now busy witnessing about Jesus to those he comes in contact with. NATE re your comment "he was and is posting with different names" - Who is "HE"? Ts also told me he's never written on TMB under any other user name than ts. Perhaps you meant Daniel posted under different names which is true--but your post sounds like you're saying ts did so and he hasn't. Ts said he will contact you about this error. Save
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 26, 2016 9:12:49 GMT -5
I wonder why people change user names? I understand when they deleted their membership, then decide to post again, but some have multiple active names. Can anyone explain why? Some folks like to talk to themselves, maybe? Save
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2016 10:44:08 GMT -5
Obviously Daniel posted the best photo he could find of his family,so this photo's tells me nothing.I would be supersized if their foster/adopted children would just lie about the abuse, usually that is not the case. Obviously you weren't around during the Michigan Russian twins episode. Two female professing twins about 17-18 lied and took down the reputations of about 50 workers and friends they said had sex with them; caused financial ruin for some having to defend themselves; divided the entire state; caused 2 sister workers to leave the work, friends took sides. Their siblings were taken away from their professing parents, their parents were excommunicated over the matter and their elderly grandparents meeting was taken away...I doubt Michigan has healed yet and probably never will... It went to court and the twins finally admitted to lying about the whole thing. Before this, the twins were hoping to go in the work. This saga all took place over about 2 years time. Some male workers were suspended; an elderly one was involuntarily retired. So much agony and pain...I was a WINGS group member then, and we followed it closely. It's all on TMB somewhere and probably the WINGS Forum too. It's bcs of this that some of us are very reluctant to believe what the young girls are saying...without further proof and prefer to withhold judgment...especially as we feel we knew the father pretty well through TMB. He posted tons about his life and how the F&W were mistreating, shunning he and his family--but may have deleted some of it. They were pushed out of meetings--yet they still wanted to go. What happened to them is called a "spiritual killing." I urge everyone not to be hasty in judging or condemning...til the investigation and facts are all known. SaveThis is so sad,O my! So yes it can happen but I guess it would be less likely. I agree 100% with lets wait and see what the verdict will be. What a shame that these girls got privileges and opportunities they would not likely have gotten back in their home country living in a orphanage and what do they do,bite the hands that feed and clothe them ruining their adopted parents lives and 50 plus others!This is just sick and disgusting!Hopefully they were send back to Russia ?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 26, 2016 11:15:43 GMT -5
Obviously you weren't around during the Michigan Russian twins episode. Two female professing twins about 17-18 lied and took down the reputations of about 50 workers and friends they said had sex with them; caused financial ruin for some having to defend themselves; divided the entire state; caused 2 sister workers to leave the work, friends took sides. Their siblings were taken away from their professing parents, their parents were excommunicated over the matter and their elderly grandparents meeting was taken away...I doubt Michigan has healed yet and probably never will... It went to court and the twins finally admitted to lying about the whole thing. Before this, the twins were hoping to go in the work. This saga all took place over about 2 years time. Some male workers were suspended; an elderly one was involuntarily retired. So much agony and pain...I was a WINGS group member then, and we followed it closely. It's all on TMB somewhere and probably the WINGS Forum too. It's bcs of this that some of us are very reluctant to believe what the young girls are saying...without further proof and prefer to withhold judgment...especially as we feel we knew the father pretty well through TMB. He posted tons about his life and how the F&W were mistreating, shunning he and his family--but may have deleted some of it. They were pushed out of meetings--yet they still wanted to go. What happened to them is called a "spiritual killing." I urge everyone not to be hasty in judging or condemning...til the investigation and facts are all known. SaveThis is so sad,O my! So yes it can happen but I guess it would be less likely. I agree 100% with lets wait and see what the verdict will be. What a shame that these girls got privileges and opportunities they would not likely have gotten back in their home country living in a orphanage and what do they do,bite the hands that feed and clothe them ruining their adopted parents lives and 50 plus others!This is just sick and disgusting!Hopefully they were send back to Russia ? The adoptive parents still consider the twins their grown children. One twin CE home after her psychological treatment was over. The other twin stayed withe older sister worker for a while. The twin that came home apologized with great tears to her parents and grandparents. Her grandfather had Alzheimer's and died about 3 yrs ago. Grandmother is badly crippled with arthritis. All the Russian a adopted children and parents go to grandmother's for Sun am MTG. The children help their grandmother withyard and house work. They even keep her garden producing. Russian children that have been adopted are found to have serious problems esp psychological oproblems. DHS helped parents getcavgrip on how to better deal with these youngsters and the enforced being sent to foster caused those kids toappreciate their parents . One Russiantwin has taken some kind of hob ttraining. She still sees the psychiatrist as does the other twin. I belivevboth twins came home for a while. Grandmother has her 94th bday this month.
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