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Post by leader on Jul 20, 2016 18:00:22 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 20, 2016 18:20:22 GMT -5
Are you thinking it happened while they were in the work also?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 20, 2016 19:00:37 GMT -5
Sad how far the fellowship has fallen, makes me glad I got out years ago. Don't know how anyone can sleep at night being associated with this. If the fellowship has "fallen", do you think this is a new trend among the Friends and workers?
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Post by leader on Jul 20, 2016 19:14:22 GMT -5
Sad how far the fellowship has fallen, makes me glad I got out years ago. Don't know how anyone can sleep at night being associated with this. If the fellowship has "fallen", do you think this is a new trend among the Friends and workers? Don't know, guess I didn't put that much thought into my word choice. I grew up viewing the church as perfect, so in my mind it has fallen far. Maybe this stuff was going on from the beginning though. I don't know.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 20, 2016 19:16:55 GMT -5
If the fellowship has "fallen", do you think this is a new trend among the Friends and workers? Don't know, guess I didn't put that much thought into my word choice. I grew up viewing the church as perfect, so in my mind it has fallen far. Maybe this stuff was going on from the beginning though. I don't know. I believe it has. And it's not at all unique to the Friends and Workers.
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Post by leader on Jul 20, 2016 19:18:48 GMT -5
Are you thinking it happened while they were in the work also? Yes for sure. You don't just start abusing people out of the blue. This was a long standing issue. Would be interesting to know the reasons both left the work. Maybe even forced out by other workers. That is just me speculating. I know of another worker who is / was a pervert and was caught exposing himself to a random women in a park. He was never even charged / put on record(first offense) and he was forced out of the work. It was kept very hush hush. Wish I would have posted about it at the time, don't see much point in naming him now. He was a young man, only in the work a couple years.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 20, 2016 20:18:23 GMT -5
If the fellowship has "fallen", do you think this is a new trend among the Friends and workers? Don't know, guess I didn't put that much thought into my word choice. I grew up viewing the church as perfect, so in my mind it has fallen far. Maybe this stuff was going on from the beginning though. I don't know. I believe they need to quit saying they've got Jesus' ministry. They've given a black eye to the Apostles. Yes apparently for WI was immoral and others had harems and some had homes with woman there waiting on them. It seems the whole thing has been a farce from day one.
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Post by fixit on Jul 20, 2016 21:12:05 GMT -5
Don't know, guess I didn't put that much thought into my word choice. I grew up viewing the church as perfect, so in my mind it has fallen far. Maybe this stuff was going on from the beginning though. I don't know. I believe they need to quit saying they've got Jesus' ministry. They've given a black eye to the Apostles. Yes apparently for WI was immoral and others had harems and some had homes with woman there waiting on them. It seems the whole thing has been a farce from day one. That's like saying virtually every group and organisation was a farce from day one.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 20, 2016 21:33:50 GMT -5
Here is some of Daniel Spurgeons background: Tyhis is the guy who had 12 children and the workers put them out of meetings in Alabama. He told about it all over TMB. We don't know why the workers are shunning our family. I asked one of the overseers why they were shunning us, and he replied back that he didn't like the word "shun" and that I should stop using it. He also said, "If you don't visit the friends and workers in your area, then why should they visit you?" The issue isn't that complicated. We used to live in a different part of the state. We had 10 wonderful years down there with fellowship with the friends and workers. We moved to my home part of the state, which was 3 hours north of where we used to live. My mom still lives there and meets there. She has never liked my wife. The people in the meeting were immediately cold to my wife. They also started trying to pit our two children with behaviorial needs against us by dropping very judgemental and harsh statements accusing us of being biased toward our biological children over our adopted. They then took it a step further and began going behind our back and doing things for those 2 children like bringing them a toy, etc. We had asked them not to show the 2 children any extra attention (out of the ordinary- such as bringing JUST those 2 children a toy). The children have RAD and they were beginning to triangulate the meeting. That is what children with RAD do. A worker that also posts on this board, noels, can confirm what I am writing as there are 2 children with RAD in his field. I spoke with the elder on many occassions, many hours on the phone as well, asking for his help to stop the practice. He finally told me that he did think that my wife was being partial to the biological kids over the adopted. So, I finally, and foolishly, went to the overseer to ask him to intervene and simply tell the meeting that it was a medical issue and it is a serious problem to have the triangulation going on. That those 2 children didn't need the extra attention- to just shake their hand and treat them just like the other 6 kids that we have. But, throughout the dinner, in an expensive Japanese restaurant, he just kept giving me the elder's and my mom's position and was telling me to just give in (against the advice of medical experts). I told him that I couldn't do that- that would hurt those 2 kids. Toward the end of the meal he said something that really let me know where he stood, he said, "Some women, might say that your kids look neglected." I was stunned. Here we were eating at a fancy Japanese restaurant and he is seriously telling me that my kids look neglected? We had met him at our nice 3 story home that is cleaner then most hospitals and he was telling me that my kids look neglected? My kids wear very nice, branded clothes (not that that matters), and he was telling me that my kids looked neglected? At that moment, I felt that gossip had done her dirty work- he was so blinded to gossip that he couldn't even see the reality. But that wasn't the worse part- I had explained to him what triangulation was and how RAD kids use it to pit adults against adults. And I told him the importance of not letting those kids think that he was in "their corner" against us. So, what did he do? After the very next gospel meeting, he picked up one of those 2 kids, gave her a great big hug, and then swung her around in a big circle. He made a huge spectacle of showing to all in the meeting what he thought of my instructions (and the mental health experts) in regards to those children. So, I knew at that moment nothing was going to change. I wrote George Lee an email saying that we were through with going to meetings- that we could not attend any longer because it was hurting the healing of our 2 RAD children in that environment. George, in kindness, wrote back and said that he didn't want "my children" to miss going to meeting, so he invited us to a meeting in his state. And we went. And it was heaven for us again. Just like the previous 10 years before we had moved. There were no issues with the children. No one gave my wife the cold shoulder or asked us why we treated one child a certain way over how we treated another child. No issues. It was heaven, and those folks have my gratitude for providing us another year of being in meetings. Until, George called a few weeks ago and told me that we had so many kids that we were making folks in that meeting nervous- and he said that it would be best if we didn't go to meetings there anymore. When I then emailed him and asked what meeting we were to attend, he replied back, that there were none in his state. That all the meetings were full. So far, other overseers have no being able to find a meeting for us. (The odd thing is, another worker was with us, we were on vacation when George called, and he was stunned at the news. We had been in two meetings with him that week and he had stayed a night with us. So, I asked him- did you detect anything in our testimonies or spirit that seemed to indicate a problem? he said "no." Did he see us treating our biological children differently then our adopted/foster children? He replied that he didn't even know which ones were our biological children- he certainly couldn't tell. So, we are without a meeting in a fellowship that we love BECAUSE of false gossip and the overseers digging their heels in believing in the false gossip. They are also reporting that I have an issue with "authority", which isn't true. I wouldn't have went to them or other overseers for help if I had an issue with their authority. I have an issue with their abuse of authority- and their shunning/excommunication based on nothing more then lies/false gossip is an abuse of that authority.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 20, 2016 21:35:01 GMT -5
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 20, 2016 21:41:05 GMT -5
Very wise. We know about the conclusion-leaping in MI with many seemingly credible accusations turning out to be false. There will be plenty of forensics in the house that will go a long way to corroborate or contradict the witnesses.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 20, 2016 21:43:15 GMT -5
I believe they need to quit saying they've got Jesus' ministry. They've given a black eye to the Apostles. Yes apparently for WI was immoral and others had harems and some had homes with woman there waiting on them. It seems the whole thing has been a farce from day one. Most of the early workers were NOT immoral or act like William Irvine... There will always be few rotten apples in the barrel.There are professing people but they are NOT possessing. God knows them that are His. God is exposing the professing but NOT possessing to let them know they're lacking of the Oil/ controlling of the Holy Spirit in their lives. The professing who are possessing still keep on having the Oil/Holy Spirit in their lamps burning brightly. Remember, the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins when Jesus returns. Nathan, I have heard people use that sentence as rationalization trying to limit the damage done by those so-called "rotten apples."
Although it is true that there may be just a few, -but if the majority allows the incidents happen and cover them up instead of doing something to stop them they are just as rotten as the others.
The damage is done.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 20, 2016 22:21:59 GMT -5
Nathan, I have heard people use that sentence as rationalization trying to limit the damage done by those so-called "rotten apples."
Although it is true that there may be just a few, -but if the majority allows the incidents happen and cover them up instead of doing something to stop them they are just as rotten as the others.
The damage is done. Most of the friends and workers do NOT condone the workers, overseers who covered the incidents up for their fellow-workers... William Irvine, Ira H. Leslie W. and others had been removed from the ministry.You are joking aren't you nathan !!!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 20, 2016 22:50:11 GMT -5
That thought went through my mind. Kids will bunch up and do things like this. They will find out that their lives won't get much better when they're telling lies.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 20, 2016 22:55:49 GMT -5
You are joking aren't you nathan !!!! No Joke, on my part. The workers like William Irvine, Ira H. and Leslie W. MUST be removed from the ministry so the rotten apples Will NOT ruin/spoil the whole barrel of good apples.How about GW 's harem he spoke about to a sister worker? How about Bill Carroll's home and woman waiting for him? There were othera who had women and or homes with woman of the beginning workers. Formication seems to be okay in their books from the start
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 21, 2016 1:12:57 GMT -5
How about GW 's harem he spoke about to a sister worker? How about Bill Carroll's home and woman waiting for him? There were othera who had women and or homes with woman of the beginning workers. Formication seems to be okay in their books from the start Yes, I've read Bill Carroll's woman rumor waiting for him at his home, on TMB. If it were true, it would have been better for these workers to stay in the work as married couples in the work.... like the Christies and other married workers in the past.I was impressed with the thot they weren't married?
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Post by mdm on Jul 21, 2016 1:38:26 GMT -5
You are joking aren't you nathan !!!! No Joke, on my part. The workers like William Irvine, Ira H. and Leslie W. MUST be removed from the ministry so the rotten apples Will NOT ruin/spoil the whole barrel of good apples.LW and IH are not good examples of rotten apples being diligently removed. It took internet exposure, a lot pressure on overseers, and many many complaints to finally force overseers to remove them from the ministry. Though unrepentant, LW and IH retain full meeting privileges. Their victims were slandered, Dale Garden excommunicated, but they themselves remain respected in the fellowship.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 7:49:26 GMT -5
Are you thinking it happened while they were in the work also? Yes for sure. You don't just start abusing people out of the blue. This was a long standing issue. Would be interesting to know the reasons both left the work. Maybe even forced out by other workers. That is just me speculating. I know of another worker who is / was a pervert and was caught exposing himself to a random women in a park. He was never even charged / put on record(first offense) and he was forced out of the work. It was kept very hush hush. Wish I would have posted about it at the time, don't see much point in naming him now. He was a young man, only in the work a couple years. As I have mentioned several times on this forum, all it takes is the opportunities to offend and the inclinations to abuse., and there were/are both these factors within the fellowship, it was/is like a playing field for those so inclined; however exposure is now gradually working towards cleaning up the mess and,hopefully, eradicating it as it becomes known. However, the problem of healing the damaged products will take a much longer process, if indeed they can be completely healed physically and emotionally. The whole thing is most shameful and ungodly, nothing spiritually uplifting, nothing to be proud of in the only true way I hang my head in shame.
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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2016 9:23:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the info....but..... Are you blaming the Workers and/or fellowship for any of this? If so, isn't that a bit of jumping to conclusions? 1. We don't even know if these accusations are real. Not that they are not to be taken seriously, but let's let this play out. 2. It seems like this man was separated from our fellowship by the Workers. I don't think completely ex-communicated, but was given his own meeting, and basically met with family only. Would you be the same guy to condemn the Workers for this? Maybe the Workers DID have some wisdom and insight as a reason for doing this. Again, non of us know yet. Many were condemning the Workers at one time for "shunning" him. Let's not jump to conclusions until a full investigation is completed, and the true facts come out.
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Post by mdm on Jul 21, 2016 10:10:43 GMT -5
I have left the fellowship over CSA and sexual abuse/immorality cover-ups, but don't blame the fellowship for this, provided that charges are even true. I do blame them though for not reporting whatever neglect or abuse they suspected in this case early on, so that everyone can get help if needed. I don't think that shunning is appropriate in case of abuse - nobody gets help that way. Otherwise, as Cherie has said, with RAD children further investigation is needed.
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 21, 2016 10:40:16 GMT -5
Sad how far the fellowship has fallen, makes me glad I got out years ago. Don't know how anyone can sleep at night being associated with this. If the fellowship has "fallen", do you think this is a new trend among the Friends and workers? This sort of behavior runs rampant throughout our American culture. It is just more shocking when it shows up among religious people regardless of their beliefs.
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Post by mdm on Jul 21, 2016 10:43:18 GMT -5
I have heard of three different cases of suspected neglect and/or abuse by parents in the fellowship. In one case, two sister workers reported their concerns to a senior bw expecting him to do something, but he completely dismissed their concerns. In another case, a professing couple expressed their concern for wellbeing of certain children to others in their meeting and to the local workers. They were told that they can't help all the children, but finally the workers reported the suspected abuse to authorities and instructed the concerned couple to do the same. However, the workers hid the fact that they had done the reporting, and all the "blame" was laid on the couple. In third case, several couples suspected abuse, but didn't do anything about it "because the workers always take the side of the perpetrator."
The fellowship needs to implement clear guidelines that all suspected abuse needs to be reported to authorities. Old doctrines and traditions are difficult to uproot without decisive action.
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 21, 2016 11:07:38 GMT -5
I have heard of three different cases of suspected neglect and/or abuse by parents in the fellowship. In one case, two sister workers reported their concerns to a senior bw expecting him to do something, but he completely dismissed their concerns. In another case, a professing couple expressed their concern for wellbeing of certain children to others in their meeting and to the local workers. They were told that they can't help all the children, but finally the workers reported the suspected abuse to authorities and instructed the concerned couple to do the same. However, the workers hid the fact that they had done the reporting, and all the "blame" was laid on the couple. In third case, several couples suspected abuse, but didn't do anything about it "because the workers always take the side of the perpetrator." The fellowship needs to implement clear guidelines that all suspected abuse needs to be reported to authorities. Old doctrines and traditions are difficult to uproot without decisive action. When your boots are on the ground in these cases, it is almost always an extremely difficult decision to report when we suspect abuse. The reason is that we rarely witness the abuse directly. We see small behavioural signs, we have hunches, feelings and at the same time, know that we have nothing that is legally actionable. Even the person with the most integrity around will struggle with it. It gets more difficult for a senior brother worker when suspicions are reported by others. What can he do? Nothing except encourage the witnesses to report what they have seen....otherwise, all he has is hearsay of a suspicion......he doesn't have some sort of magic powers to know what is going on. Where I live, all citizens are compelled by law to report suspicions of child abuse, yet most suspicions go unreported anyway....it's not just a 2x2 thing. It's not easy. In this particular case, the friends did have a clear enough level of suspicion based on meeting behaviour that if they felt it was sufficient to bar them from meeting, then it should have been sufficient to report it to authorities. Perhaps they did. Critics here may never know if they did or not. We do know the friends and workers did take action of a sort....they just didn't let it go entirely.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 21, 2016 11:39:06 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 14:50:53 GMT -5
I have heard of three different cases of suspected neglect and/or abuse by parents in the fellowship. In one case, two sister workers reported their concerns to a senior bw expecting him to do something, but he completely dismissed their concerns. In another case, a professing couple expressed their concern for wellbeing of certain children to others in their meeting and to the local workers. They were told that they can't help all the children, but finally the workers reported the suspected abuse to authorities and instructed the concerned couple to do the same. However, the workers hid the fact that they had done the reporting, and all the "blame" was laid on the couple. In third case, several couples suspected abuse, but didn't do anything about it "because the workers always take the side of the perpetrator." The fellowship needs to implement clear guidelines that all suspected abuse needs to be reported to authorities. Old doctrines and traditions are difficult to uproot without decisive action. When your boots are on the ground in these cases, it is almost always an extremely difficult decision to report when we suspect abuse. The reason is that we rarely witness the abuse directly. We see small behavioural signs, we have hunches, feelings and at the same time, know that we have nothing that is legally actionable. Even the person with the most integrity around will struggle with it. It gets more difficult for a senior brother worker when suspicions are reported by others. What can he do? Nothing except encourage the witnesses to report what they have seen....otherwise, all he has is hearsay of a suspicion......he doesn't have some sort of magic powers to know what is going on. Where I live, all citizens are compelled by law to report suspicions of child abuse, yet most suspicions go unreported anyway....it's not just a 2x2 thing. It's not easy. In this particular case, the friends did have a clear enough level of suspicion based on meeting behaviour that if they felt it was sufficient to bar them from meeting, then it should have been sufficient to report it to authorities. Perhaps they did. Critics here may never know if they did or not. We do know the friends and workers did take action of a sort....they just didn't let it go entirely. Suspicions are not proof, things should be thoroughly investigated in order to arrive at the truth. Suspicions that turn out to be false accusations can also destroy the lives of innocent people. Care must be taken in such matters. I believe that false accusation and wrongful punishment can be equally as devastating on the lives of victims falsely accused as it is on the lives of victims sexually abused.
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bgm
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Post by bgm on Jul 21, 2016 23:00:53 GMT -5
When your boots are on the ground in these cases, it is almost always an extremely difficult decision to report when we suspect abuse. The reason is that we rarely witness the abuse directly. We see small behavioural signs, we have hunches, feelings and at the same time, know that we have nothing that is legally actionable. Even the person with the most integrity around will struggle with it. It gets more difficult for a senior brother worker when suspicions are reported by others. What can he do? Nothing except encourage the witnesses to report what they have seen....otherwise, all he has is hearsay of a suspicion......he doesn't have some sort of magic powers to know what is going on. Where I live, all citizens are compelled by law to report suspicions of child abuse, yet most suspicions go unreported anyway....it's not just a 2x2 thing. It's not easy. In this particular case, the friends did have a clear enough level of suspicion based on meeting behaviour that if they felt it was sufficient to bar them from meeting, then it should have been sufficient to report it to authorities. Perhaps they did. Critics here may never know if they did or not. We do know the friends and workers did take action of a sort....they just didn't let it go entirely. Suspicions are not proof, things should be thoroughly investigated in order to arrive at the truth. Suspicions that turn out to be false accusations can also destroy the lives of innocent people. Care must be taken in such matters. I believe that false accusation and wrongful punishment can be equally as devastating on the lives of victims falsely accused as it is on the lives of victims sexually abused. Suspicion and false accusation are two completely different things. Professional investigators know the difference but most people do not and leap to conclusions. That is why suspicions should go to professionals, not the gossip circuit.
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Post by rational on Jul 22, 2016 0:33:43 GMT -5
When your boots are on the ground in these cases, it is almost always an extremely difficult decision to report when we suspect abuse. The reason is that we rarely witness the abuse directly. We see small behavioural signs, we have hunches, feelings and at the same time, know that we have nothing that is legally actionable. Anyone dealing with child abuse states that suspicion alone is reason enough to report abuse to authorities. In most locations he is mandated to report it. This is where society and religion fails. If you are afraid that by reporting child abuse you might lose your chance for salvation you need to reconsider who you are looking toward for salvation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2016 3:50:36 GMT -5
Suspicions are not proof, things should be thoroughly investigated in order to arrive at the truth. Suspicions that turn out to be false accusations can also destroy the lives of innocent people. Care must be taken in such matters. I believe that false accusation and wrongful punishment can be equally as devastating on the lives of victims falsely accused as it is on the lives of victims sexually abused. Suspicion and false accusation are two completely different things. Professional investigators know the difference but most people do not and leap to conclusions. That is why suspicions should go to professionals, not the gossip circuit. Precisely, that is the point I Was trying to highlight.
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