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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2016 22:00:47 GMT -5
I really did not expect replies to my thread. It still surprises me that there is an online presence to 2x2 ism (see I cringed as I typed how we are named..) The question about faith in god is a good one. See, I am not sure anymore if I even had faith in god before, or if I was brought up trying to please workers and family so I just took a bunch of procedural steps, say all the right things, and etc. I learned how to say things in a really convincing way and almost in a manipulative way by pseudo-exposing a vulnerable side of my human side, but at the same time getting my point across and impressing audience. Yes I am talking about testimonies... Now I am wondering if 'faith' for me was embedded in the procedures and structures (testimonies, convention, pleasing workers, working hard on B days haha). So as my education advanced, I turned to science and theory of knowledge. They make sense right..?? So one of the biggest issue for me is, if we cannot logically understand God (as christians love to say), then why are we trying to understand, discuss such entity in a logical way to start with? Because logically,,, every dead end argument can just be ended with "well, our logic cannot conceptualize the great works of.. etc etc" Also,, excluding homosexual people. I am so shamed to say that I grew up feeling disgusted by them, and thinking that they were criminals, sinners, and horrible people who were just rebels. Since my dad was a worker, I know a lot of workers probably more than other 'friends'. They isolate themselves from anything 'worldly' but sadly, they almost seem like socially handicapped people. I don't know what the average age for this forum is but I am 22 years old. I am very observant, and I work with marketing, business, PR on a daily basis. My gaydar is pretty accurate haha. And so many brother workers,,,, bleep so hard on the gaydar. Also, when they speak in meetings, their lack of education seeps through and makes ignorant claims, and how am I supposed to react to that? When it comes to homosexuality, evolution, psychology, how old the earth is... and etc. I also studied neuropsychology, (my wife more into molecular neuroplasticity and other hard things that I kind of gave up on haha), and we theorize the role of religion in our lives. Sex, food/hunger, communication/language, math, and everything has evolutionary purpose.. so what is the role of religion? have humans tapped into the feeling of relief and dependency, mixed it with fear of unknown, and created an extremely appealing idea of religion? of course things vary between one to another.. I would be so happy to go back to meetings if the idea of 'we are the only way and this is better than anything else' attitude went away, and if people acknowledged history and science (as truth is truth) - there's a quote 'as truth is truth' haha. Also once those notions go away... what is the role of workers? This 'better than thou' attitude carried in school for me. So basically in Jr. High, I was that kid who knew nothing about any cultural reference, who wore no jeans, never got to hung out with anyone (there are almost no young 'friends' here), but who started peak of puberty.. so sexually it was horrifying, socially it was even worse. (wanting to fit in and wanting to have friends was rejected by thoughts of 'no this is sin. must not mingle, they are probably doing drugs after school' Not even joking, thats what I thought) . So once again here is another scattered post. Every time I imagine any of you, I still have chill going down my spine. I mean,, did anyone even imagine that our truth/meetings/the way was being talked about? and that worldly people even knew about us? I guess subconsciously I just believed that if anyone knew about us, they would just join and profess and be saved... 2x2ism is purposefully kept private and mum to make people think it is so great an advantage to be in with the few and the brave. This is one thing that caused me to understand that2x2s have nothing of the joyous gospel of Christ simply because even human nature makes us want to share such joyous news. Jesus fully intended that his gospel be shared. He even was using thee years of his young life giving his fellow Judeans a last chance at turning back to God after God had declared He was giving salvation to the gentiles or heathen nations because Need had polluted the Mosaic law given centuries beforTo understandany religion one needs to know the tenets of faith for that religion. Thev2x2s have been told that 2 things are what holds them apart from the world and is vital. That is the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home. I have asked where is Jesus in that? Great point. We are living in a time of opportunity in which there is in some countries still religious freedom (too much, in the U.S.). And simultaneously, we have economic and social and political unrest and a large amount of people who do not have any religious beliefs. This could be perfect coditions to sell your church, if that is your goal, or to introduce Jesus if that is your goal. Rather that evangelize, the workers have chosen to her I...way before any threat to their safety exists. The window of religious freedom I think will begin to close as people react to Islam and Scientilog
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Post by withlove on Apr 20, 2016 22:09:46 GMT -5
Having some issues with the reply and edit functions....will try to finish here.
Workers have covert missionaries teaching English in countries without religious freedoms. While in free countries, they have given up without cause. No evangelizing to outsiders, and they don't even need a cover to do it. What will they think when it is no longer a matter of will, but inability?
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Post by alfaromeo on Apr 20, 2016 22:21:25 GMT -5
Is bible a good book if it is read as a novel? If we were to read it as educational life lessons, wouldn't Talmud or other fables and stories be more worth it? Bible has to be extremely biased compared to some other books out there haha. It frightens me that I (and many others still) had no questions/doubts about miracles we read in the bible. I mean only 2000 years ago, someone turned water into wine, walked on water, healed disabled, fed 5000? I am actually almost too afraid to research into Jesus as a historical figure.
As society becomes more and more secular, and even christian organizations becoming less strict, I think there will be less disconnect between people like me and the majority of society. Maybe where you are from, it is heavily christian, but where I am, I don't feel it as much. Yes it is a therapy program, but it only works when you think it is something more than that. So like placebo, it won't really work once you know what's actually happening.
Do you think maybe this is an easy way out and easy way for people to feel satisfied when they are just incapable? As in, maybe we carry out our biological and evolutionary goals (communicate, protect, procreate, survive) to feel happiness and peace, but religion is an alternative to doing all that work..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 22:49:48 GMT -5
Is bible a good book if it is read as a novel? If we were to read it as educational life lessons, wouldn't Talmud or other fables and stories be more worth it? Bible has to be extremely biased compared to some other books out there haha. It frightens me that I (and many others still) had no questions/doubts about miracles we read in the bible. I mean only 2000 years ago, someone turned water into wine, walked on water, healed disabled, fed 5000? I am actually almost too afraid to research into Jesus as a historical figure. As society becomes more and more secular, and even christian organizations becoming less strict, I think there will be less disconnect between people like me and the majority of society. Maybe where you are from, it is heavily christian, but where I am, I don't feel it as much. Yes it is a therapy program, but it only works when you think it is something more than that. So like placebo, it won't really work once you know what's actually happening. Do you think maybe this is an easy way out and easy way for people to feel satisfied when they are just incapable? As in, maybe we carry out our biological and evolutionary goals (communicate, protect, procreate, survive) to feel happiness and peace, but religion is an alternative to doing all that work.. no matter what the revisionist say the following mention Jesus...this does not say they met Jesus...just that they mention him or something about him...
Josephus Tactius Pliny Suetonius Thallus Phlegon Lucian of Samosata Mara Bar-Serapion Julius Africanus quotes Thallus
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 20, 2016 23:00:34 GMT -5
Off topic a bit but what a great posting style ellie . Very clear what points were being addressed! No danger of misquoting! Yes! Can either of you tell me how to do that?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2016 0:33:51 GMT -5
I really did not expect replies to my thread. It still surprises me that there is an online presence to 2x2 ism (see I cringed as I typed how we are named..) The question about faith in god is a good one. See, I am not sure anymore if I even had faith in god before, or if I was brought up trying to please workers and family so I just took a bunch of procedural steps, say all the right things, and etc. I learned how to say things in a really convincing way and almost in a manipulative way by pseudo-exposing a vulnerable side of my human side, but at the same time getting my point across and impressing audience. Yes I am talking about testimonies... Now I am wondering if 'faith' for me was embedded in the procedures and structures (testimonies, convention, pleasing workers, working hard on B days haha). So as my education advanced, I turned to science and theory of knowledge. They make sense right..?? So one of the biggest issue for me is, if we cannot logically understand God (as christians love to say), then why are we trying to understand, discuss such entity in a logical way to start with?Because logically,,, every dead end argument can just be ended with "well, our logic cannot conceptualize the great works of.. etc etc" Also,, excluding homosexual people. I am so shamed to say that I grew up feeling disgusted by them, and thinking that they were criminals, sinners, and horrible people who were just rebels. Since my dad was a worker, I know a lot of workers probably more than other 'friends'. They isolate themselves from anything 'worldly' but sadly, they almost seem like socially handicapped people. I don't know what the average age for this forum is but I am 22 years old. I am very observant, and I work with marketing, business, PR on a daily basis. My gaydar is pretty accurate haha. And so many brother workers,,,, bleep so hard on the gaydar. Also, when they speak in meetings, their lack of education seeps through and makes ignorant claims, and how am I supposed to react to that When it comes to homosexuality, evolution, psychology, how old the earth is... and etc. I also studied neuropsychology, (my wife more into molecular neuroplasticity and other hard things that I kind of gave up on haha), and we theorize the role of religion in our lives. Sex, food/hunger, communication/language, math, and everything has evolutionary purpose.. so what is the role of religion? have humans tapped into the feeling of relief and dependency, mixed it with fear of unknown, and created an extremely appealing idea of religion? of course things vary between one to another.. I would be so happy to go back to meetings if the idea of 'we are the only way and this is better than anything else' attitude went away, and if people acknowledged history and science (as truth is truth) - there's a quote 'as truth is truth' haha. Also once those notions go away... what is the role of workers? This 'better than thou' attitude carried in school for me. So basically in Jr. High, I was that kid who knew nothing about any cultural reference, who wore no jeans, never got to hung out with anyone (there are almost no young 'friends' here), but who started peak of puberty.. so sexually it was horrifying, socially it was even worse.(wanting to fit in and wanting to have friends was rejected by thoughts of 'no this is sin. must not mingle, they are probably doing drugs after school' Not even joking, thats what I thought) . So once again here is another scattered post. Every time I imagine any of you, I still have chill going down my spine. I mean,, did anyone even imagine that our truth/meetings/the way was being talked about? and that worldly people even knew about us? I guess subconsciously I just believed that if anyone knew about us, they would just join and profess and be saved... I really liked this thought of yours!
"So one of the biggest issue for me is, if we cannot logically understand God (as christians love to say), -then why are we trying to understand, discuss such entity in a logical way to start with?"
That is precisely what I often think, -especially about Creationists!
If their faith in god is superior to science or logic, ( as they claim) then why on earth do they feel that they have to prove their faith by using those same means!
I would think that they would be satisfied with their faith! It seems obvious to me that they aren't, -that in reality they are doubting their faith but won't recognize that is what they are doing!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2016 0:39:12 GMT -5
The "where 2 are gathered" scripture relates to the resolution of disputes but has been used time after time to justify fellowship on a small scale, but it is not the original sense of the verse. Are sure about it meaning a "resolution of disputes?"
I had always just thought that it just meant large amounts of numbers didn't matter, -just as long as they believed
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 2:00:26 GMT -5
Having some issues with the reply and edit functions....will try to finish here. Workers have covert missionaries teaching English in countries without religious freedoms. While in free countries, they have given up without cause. No evangelizing to outsiders, and they don't even need a cover to do it. What will they think when it is no longer a matter of will, but inability? I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them.
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2016 6:08:17 GMT -5
Great point. We are living in a time of opportunity in which there is in some countries still religious freedom (too much, in the U.S.). How can you have too much freedom in regard to anything? As long as your actions do not impinge on the freedoms of others why does there need to be any control on people's freedoms? Isn't the social unrest usually due to people wanting to regain their freedoms that others have usurped? In a marketing context does this means selling your ideas to people when they are vulnerable? If you have to wait for the 'right' conditions to sell your product maybe your product is not worth selling. Like selling people survival food in the months leading up to the year 2000 after feeding them the BS about the fall of civilization because of the Y2K errors? And when you have convinced them that the sky is falling sell - Sell - SELL. Did we learn nothing from Chicken Little, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky, Goosey Loosey, Turkey Lurkey, Foxy Loxy, et al.? Maybe the need to have to legislate anything regarding religion will slowly vanish and people can make decisions and take responsibility for their actions without external guidance.
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Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2016 6:45:57 GMT -5
Having some issues with the reply and edit functions....will try to finish here. Workers have covert missionaries teaching English in countries without religious freedoms. While in free countries, they have given up without cause. No evangelizing to outsiders, and they don't even need a cover to do it. What will they think when it is no longer a matter of will, but inability? I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them. That is interesting--it wouldn't occur to me that it is a money issue. Or the converting Christians thing! I assumed it was burnout or discomfort with rejection and being lumped in with Jehova Witnesses. There were enough homes to be hosted in and a welcoming cocoon of believers...very tempting to hole up in. The excuse I heard was that the world just isn't interested anymore and pastoring the church is their role now. I wonder if they did try with the public, would they get just as many newcomers professing as born-ins each year? The harvest of children and people who leave and come back is always small anywhere I've been. Of course, there is the Internet...hard to battle that.
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Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2016 7:04:29 GMT -5
Great point. We are living in a time of opportunity in which there is in some countries still religious freedom (too much, in the U.S.). How can you have too much freedom in regard to anything? As long as your actions do not impinge on the freedoms of others why does there need to be any control on people's freedoms? I don't know how you break up the quotes--like dm says, can you teach us? Will just use this font for now. Totally agree with you on this. Scientology infringes all over the place and usually gets away with it in the U.S. Other countries more readily crack down on it. Islam is quite different, but so many people *consider* it to be dangerous. Isn't the social unrest usually due to people wanting to regain their freedoms that others have usurped? Yes, my point was just that unrest of any kind can make people more susceptible to or even actively search for religion. In a marketing context does this means selling your ideas to people when they are vulnerable? If you have to wait for the 'right' conditions to sell your product maybe your product is not worth selling. Like selling people survival food in the months leading up to the year 2000 after feeding them the BS about the fall of civilization because of the Y2K errors? And when you have convinced them that the sky is falling sell - Sell - SELL. Did we learn nothing from Chicken Little, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky, Goosey Loosey, Turkey Lurkey, Foxy Loxy, et al.? Maybe the need to have to legislate anything regarding religion will slowly vanish and people can make decisions and take responsibility for their actions without external guidance.
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Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2016 7:24:01 GMT -5
In a marketing context does this means selling your ideas to people when they are vulnerable? If you have to wait for the 'right' conditions to sell your product maybe your product is not worth selling. Like selling people survival food in the months leading up to the year 2000 after feeding them the BS about the fall of civilization because of the Y2K errors? And when you have convinced them that the sky is falling sell - Sell - SELL. Did we learn nothing from Chicken Little, Henny Penny, Cocky Locky, Ducky Lucky, Goosey Loosey, Turkey Lurkey, Foxy Loxy, et al.? Yes, I agree, waiting for or creating vulnerability is wrong, and usually in that case the product is shady. Legitimate peddlers of religion (or at least ones who sincerely *believe* their product stands on its own merits), should be open and happy to present it in good times and bad, to people who feel down or on top or anything between. Not doing so suggests a lack of faith or joy, or a prejudice against outsiders. Maybe the need to have to legislate anything regarding religion will slowly vanish and people can make decisions and take responsibility for their actions without external guidance. That would be lovely. Scientology prevents people from making choices...i.e.: imprisoning people, taking away passports from staff who have no money and don't speak English and are transferred to the U.S.
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2016 9:46:33 GMT -5
Is bible a good book if it is read as a novel? If we were to read it as educational life lessons, wouldn't Talmud or other fables and stories be more worth it? Bible has to be extremely biased compared to some other books out there haha. It frightens me that I (and many others still) had no questions/doubts about miracles we read in the bible. I mean only 2000 years ago, someone turned water into wine, walked on water, healed disabled, fed 5000? I am actually almost too afraid to research into Jesus as a historical figure. Looking into the historical Jesus is time well spent. Particularly, if you ever think about joining another church or returning to the fellowship, I think. Also for me looking at anything to do with Christian history, helps put the fellowship into a clearer perspective. That said please don’t ask me any questions as I don't know much, rather I have a number of unread books, I’ll get to them one day I am not entirely sure what you mean by “therapy program” but I will have to disagree with you on it not working once you know what is actually happening. Shortly before we left meetings my SO had Dawkins on the bedside table and bible and hymn book stored in the car between meetings. It may not be great for preserving one’s integrity but I can tell you that the social uplifting element works even if you think that’s all it is. Maybe some people find religion and thinking about an afterlife a comfort when this life is a bit crappy. I don’t see people using their religion as an alternative to any evolutionary goals or instincts though. Most religious people I see are attempting to live a fulfilling life just as the non-religious ones are.
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2016 9:52:46 GMT -5
I really did not expect replies to my thread. It still surprises me that there is an online presence to 2x2 ism (see I cringed as I typed how we are named..) “The fellowship” might be an alternative name if you don’t like using 2x2. Both members and non-members will likely be familiar with it.
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Post by ellie on Apr 21, 2016 10:06:44 GMT -5
I don't know what the average age for this forum is but I am 22 years old. A lot older than 22 I dare say . I am a bit older than you but I still young enough to think wow all these people with heaps of life experience. This board is a rare opportunity in life, I think, to communicate with people who have been there, done that, seen that etc. So awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:15:23 GMT -5
Having some issues with the reply and edit functions....will try to finish here. Workers have covert missionaries teaching English in countries without religious freedoms. While in free countries, they have given up without cause. No evangelizing to outsiders, and they don't even need a cover to do it. What will they think when it is no longer a matter of will, but inability? I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them. I certainly do not think that they would stoop so low, it is said that money makes the world go round, it is also said that the love of money is the root of all evil, but honestly, I just do not think that the leaders of the fellowship would accept blood money etc. from dubious/devious sources and not care. They are still a lot of good and Godly folks within the felowship who would not condone such behaviour, and should not all be tarnished with the same brush.IMO
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 11:34:33 GMT -5
Having some issues with the reply and edit functions....will try to finish here. Workers have covert missionaries teaching English in countries without religious freedoms. While in free countries, they have given up without cause. No evangelizing to outsiders, and they don't even need a cover to do it. What will they think when it is no longer a matter of will, but inability? I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them. Of course. 2x2ism preys on the poorly educated. Have you ever noticed that the greatest concentration of 2x2s in North America is all in the rural areas? Very little 2x2ism in the Northeast urban areas - the areas of the country with historically the highest education levels (perhaps not so today due to immigration). And what better place to find poorly educated people than in Africa. And in an effort to deal with the expected atheist response that 'all churches/religions do it so why are you picking on 2x2s', may I remind you that the Roman Catholic church is the greatest force for education in the entire planet.
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2016 14:58:49 GMT -5
Of course. 2x2ism preys on the poorly educated. Have you ever noticed that the greatest concentration of 2x2s in North America is all in the rural areas? Very little 2x2ism in the Northeast urban areas - the areas of the country with historically the highest education levels (perhaps not so today due to immigration). And what better place to find poorly educated people than in Africa. And in an effort to deal with the expected atheist response that 'all churches/religions do it so why are you picking on 2x2s', may I remind you that the Roman Catholic church is the greatest force for education in the entire planet. Not certain how many atheists will do as you claim but there is at least one who thinks that any organization that preys on the uneducated and disadvantaged is wrong. Christianity is indeed growing in the poorer areas of the world because they are the areas that are easy picking. And it is no surprise that the RCC leads other denominations in indoctrinating the people there. As far as education, it is telling that the RCC teaches that young children are taken to Church to pray and be indoctrinated. Of course, you might equate education with indoctrination. Or brainwashing with education. If education is really the goal then all options need to be presented and evaluated.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 15:25:57 GMT -5
I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them. I certainly do not think that they would stoop so low, it is said that money makes the world go round, it is also said that the love of money is the root of all evil, but honestly, I just do not think that the leaders of the fellowship would accept blood money etc. from dubious/devious sources and not care. They are still a lot of good and Godly folks within the felowship who would not condone such behaviour, and should not all be tarnished with the same brush.IMO Why does the fellowship not question this behaviour then. Not questioning is condoning.
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2016 16:08:22 GMT -5
I certainly do not think that they would stoop so low, it is said that money makes the world go round, it is also said that the love of money is the root of all evil, but honestly, I just do not think that the leaders of the fellowship would accept blood money etc. from dubious/devious sources and not care. They are still a lot of good and Godly folks within the felowship who would not condone such behaviour, and should not all be tarnished with the same brush.IMO Why does the fellowship not question this behaviour then. Not questioning is condoning. People convert to or join a religion because they feel it meets a need that is not being met. If you are a member of a denomination, for example, that does not have an outreach program, you may change to a denomination that does. The more dissimilar the beliefs between the religions the more difficult the conversion will be. The more dissatisfied a member is the easier the conversion will be. Reaching out to those who are desperate no doubt provides a larger yield. I am sure there are those who actually are reaching out to save souls and care little about the money. I am also sure there are those who reach out in hope of getting money. I sense that the belief in religion or god is a tipping point event. When I was young everyone I knew attended to some church. Perhaps not every week but certainly with greater frequency than is seen now. Over time it becomes more acceptable to not feel you need to go to church every week and this is passed to the children, many who never wanted to go at all. At some point there are enough people not going/believing that the ratios rapidly change as more and more people claim that religion is not an important part of their lives. Phil Zuckerman spent time researching Swedes about their religion and considered that they regarded religion with benign indifference. Jesus was a nice man who taught some nice things. Maybe that view would settle the strife caused by conflicting religious beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2016 16:12:34 GMT -5
I certainly do not think that they would stoop so low, it is said that money makes the world go round, it is also said that the love of money is the root of all evil, but honestly, I just do not think that the leaders of the fellowship would accept blood money etc. from dubious/devious sources and not care. They are still a lot of good and Godly folks within the felowship who would not condone such behaviour, and should not all be tarnished with the same brush.IMO Why does the fellowship not question this behaviour then. Not questioning is condoning. It would be difficult for me to give a correct answer to that question because i cannot answer for the world-wide fellowship. I am not at all sure that I agree with the notion that not questioning is condoning. When we look at the number of things our governments do that we do not agree with and dont openly question, it does not mean that we condone those actions especially when we consider that we are powerless to change them inspite of the fact that protest marches and demonstration are conducted.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 16:19:52 GMT -5
At least we are lucky we live in countries where we can wave banners and protest.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2016 16:29:44 GMT -5
Is bible a good book if it is read as a novel? If we were to read it as educational life lessons, wouldn't Talmud or other fables and stories be more worth it? Bible has to be extremely biased compared to some other books out there haha. It frightens me that I (and many others still) had no questions/doubts about miracles we read in the bible. I mean only 2000 years ago, someone turned water into wine, walked on water, healed disabled, fed 5000? I am actually almost too afraid to research into Jesus as a historical figure. As society becomes more and more secular, and even christian organizations becoming less strict, I think there will be less disconnect between people like me and the majority of society. Maybe where you are from, it is heavily christian, but where I am, I don't feel it as much. Yes it is a therapy program, but it only works when you think it is something more than that. So like placebo, it won't really work once you know what's actually happening. Do you think maybe this is an easy way out and easy way for people to feel satisfied when they are just incapable? As in, maybe we carry out our biological and evolutionary goals (communicate, protect, procreate, survive) to feel happiness and peace, but religion is an alternative to doing all that work.. YES! the bible is a definitely "good read," -in fact it is a MUST read if you are studying the culture of the western world. The bible has so affected western culture that it is necessary when studying many academic subjects, -literature & philosophy are only a couple. Anthropology, even architecture. (Think of all the cathedrals)
That doesn't mean that one should take the bible as a guide book on how to live one's life. One reason is that the bible is so full of contradictions in how one should act that the person would constantly be in a muddle as which one to should listen to!
In fact, that is exactly WHY so many people's thoughts are in a muddle because of all the discord in the bible. It also explains why there are thousands of Christians denominations alone and even many different Jewish schools of thought. Every group views what the bible means differently and they can pick & choose what to believe.
Is there a solution to the quandary as to of whether one should to read the bible or not read the bible? Yes, by all means read it!
Yes, -go ahead and read the bible with the goal of understanding as to how it has affected our culture. Read the bible for the great literature it presents in the same manner that you would Shakespeare or the bhagavad gita.
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Post by withlove on Apr 21, 2016 16:36:20 GMT -5
Don't the missionary-type workers live on $ from donations from overseas friends and workers? The stories we heard were that the workers were better off than the locals.
Id be surprised to hear that there was any financial incentive.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 21, 2016 17:27:16 GMT -5
I have bottled this up for so long,, Summer night of July 2011, (could've been late June) I was coming home from attending a convention 2 hr flight away. I was spiritually very motivated, I gave my heartfelt testimony and on my way back home from the airport, I remember clearly, having a renewed purpose in me. Fast forward.. 30 minutes. I suddenly start searching terms like 'convention, workers, meetings' on google. and I tumble upon articles, and sites like this. I was so troubled. I kept going to meetings until I started going to university fall of 2012. Now the thought of going back to meetings almost disgusts me. I wasn't treated badly, and the friends here never talked in bad ways like I read in some comments, posts here and on facebook. However, the thought of people marvelling at psychological phenomenon created by empathy, simulation of giving self, relieving, and etc. really bothers me. I am now married to someone who doesn't go to meetings. My parents love her and we are happy. Dad was a worker for many years, and parents are both going to meetings. However, they seem to understand where I am coming from. I don't think I have any anger issues... but workers anger me. I personally believe that workers are mostly a mix of uneducated, narcissistic, power-hungry, in the closet (sexually) people. I have met very well educated ones but extremely power-hungry. and etc etc. I am always careful in what I say and how I say things. I think this post is my first time giving a raw opinion about anything in words/writing. I will stop my very scattered post here. I go on some facebook pages every day, but I am too nervous to post anything. So here I am posting what seems to be a meaningless thread anonymously.. I am still confused, and I feel like my first two decades were taken away from me. I was always good at observing and understanding how others think, so I fit in.. I say the right things.. But I feel as if I am a broken part of this society. Welcome to the world of giving a raw opinion. It’s a very good thing, and one of the most effective ways I have personally found in learning how to be true to myself. (“To thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, Thou canst not then be false to any man.” ~Shakespeare) Learning to do it with kindness and grace is something I am still working on. One of the best responses I received upon leaving 2X2ism, was from a non-professing friend (well acquainted with the world of 2X2ism): “I don’t know whether to say ‘Congratulations’ or ‘I’m sorry’. I think that pretty much encapsulates it - joy and sorrow interwoven. The best piece of advice I received in my leaving years was “The quickest way to move from ‘here’ to ‘there’ is to be scrupulously honest with yourself with everything you are thinking/feeling.” (Even if it is not 'nice'.) Anger is a tool. Do not push it away. Use it wisely for what needs to be done, and, when you do, it will no longer be there. It is not something you have to consciously discard (and you never should), if used rightly. Reading your contributions here, I am not too worried about you. You are really young (even if it may not seem that way to you - I remember those years well). Not a moment of your life has been wasted, though it may take you a few decades to see that. You will find your way. (And it has to be YOUR way, not someone else’s – anything else is a detour.)
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 21, 2016 19:20:26 GMT -5
I have been interested in this for some time now. Why do they lie about the reason for their presence in another country? I think the money aspect would come into the answer. As numbers of faithful fall off in western countries there seems to be a swing to get the 2x2 version out in the east and in Africa. I have had several relatives as workers in Africa, South America and India. Do you know that not one of them was able to say they converted a Hindu or Bhudhist or Animist to 2x2ism. Not one, and some of these relatives were in these countries for decades. Every single convert to 2x2ism is from another Christian church. If you are a believer in christianity then they have not made one addition at all to overall Christian numbers. And now they resort to subterfuge to spread their lies. The money aspect comes into it because the leaders still need money and they do not really care where it comes from as long as it comes to them. That is interesting--it wouldn't occur to me that it is a money issue. Or the converting Christians thing! I assumed it was burnout or discomfort with rejection and being lumped in with Jehova Witnesses. There were enough homes to be hosted in and a welcoming cocoon of believers...very tempting to hole up in. The excuse I heard was that the world just isn't interested anymore and pastoring the church is their role now. I wonder if they did try with the public, would they get just as many newcomers professing as born-ins each year? The harvest of children and people who leave and come back is always small anywhere I've been. Of course, there is the Internet...hard to battle that. If they consistently preached the Jesus gospel and let the potential converts make their choice when they're moved by the gospel story. But no, the workers hold such folks back because they "don't get it" yet. The not getting has to do with potential converts understanding that it is the 2x2 itinerant ministry is what the 2x2 religion is about.
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Post by breakingfree on Apr 21, 2016 20:04:02 GMT -5
I have bottled this up for so long,, Summer night of July 2011, (could've been late June) I was coming home from attending a convention 2 hr flight away. I was spiritually very motivated, I gave my heartfelt testimony and on my way back home from the airport, I remember clearly, having a renewed purpose in me. Fast forward.. 30 minutes. I suddenly start searching terms like 'convention, workers, meetings' on google. and I tumble upon articles, and sites like this. I was so troubled. I kept going to meetings until I started going to university fall of 2012. Now the thought of going back to meetings almost disgusts me. I wasn't treated badly, and the friends here never talked in bad ways like I read in some comments, posts here and on facebook. However, the thought of people marvelling at psychological phenomenon created by empathy, simulation of giving self, relieving, and etc. really bothers me. I am now married to someone who doesn't go to meetings. My parents love her and we are happy. Dad was a worker for many years, and parents are both going to meetings. However, they seem to understand where I am coming from. I don't think I have any anger issues... but workers anger me. I personally believe that workers are mostly a mix of uneducated, narcissistic, power-hungry, in the closet (sexually) people. I have met very well educated ones but extremely power-hungry. and etc etc. I am always careful in what I say and how I say things. I think this post is my first time giving a raw opinion about anything in words/writing. I will stop my very scattered post here. I go on some facebook pages every day, but I am too nervous to post anything. So here I am posting what seems to be a meaningless thread anonymously.. I am still confused, and I feel like my first two decades were taken away from me. I was always good at observing and understanding how others think, so I fit in.. I say the right things.. But I feel as if I am a broken part of this society. Alfaromeo, thank you for posting.
Your story resonates with a lot of others here. Many of us have been in your position or similar ones.
So, please stay with us. We welcome you. Ditto!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 21, 2016 23:53:24 GMT -5
Is bible a good book if it is read as a novel? If we were to read it as educational life lessons, wouldn't Talmud or other fables and stories be more worth it? Bible has to be extremely biased compared to some other books out there haha. It frightens me that I (and many others still) had no questions/doubts about miracles we read in the bible. I mean only 2000 years ago, someone turned water into wine, walked on water, healed disabled, fed 5000? I am actually almost too afraid to research into Jesus as a historical figure. As society becomes more and more secular, and even christian organizations becoming less strict, I think there will be less disconnect between people like me and the majority of society. Maybe where you are from, it is heavily christian, but where I am, I don't feel it as much. Yes it is a therapy program, but it only works when you think it is something more than that. So like placebo, it won't really work once you know what's actually happening. Do you think maybe this is an easy way out and easy way for people to feel satisfied when they are just incapable? As in, maybe we carry out our biological and evolutionary goals (communicate, protect, procreate, survive) to feel happiness and peace, but religion is an alternative to doing all that work.. YES! the bible is a definitely "good read," -in fact it is a MUST read if you are studying the culture of the western world. The bible has so affected western culture that it is necessary when studying many academic subjects, -literature & philosophy are only a couple. Anthropology, even architecture. (Think of all the cathedrals)
That doesn't mean that one should take the bible as a guide book on how to live one's life. One reason is that the bible is so full of contradictions in how one should act that the person would constantly be in a muddle as which one to should listen to!
In fact, that is exactly WHY so many people's thoughts are in a muddle because of all the discord in the bible. It also explains why there are thousands of Christians denominations alone and even many different Jewish schools of thought. Every group views what the bible means differently and they can pick & choose what to believe.
Is there a solution to the quandary as to of whether one should to read the bible or not read the bible? Yes, by all means read it!
Yes, -go ahead and read the bible with the goal of understanding as to how it has affected our culture. Read the bible for the great literature it presents in the same manner that you would Shakespeare or the bhagavad gita. I would rank alongside other novels such Alice In Wonderland and Farmer Giles of Ham.
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