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Post by rational on Jan 11, 2016 10:00:14 GMT -5
XNA, in deference toward those who object to the term NDE, could we please use the more precise phrase "experience which occurs after cardiac arrest, lung failure and flat lining of the brain, but before resuscitation", or EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR? It matters not that those sharing an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR suffer clinical death. For me, if it were not for EWOACALFAFLOTBBBRs, I would consider the possibility of retained consciousness after death to be utter silliness, but EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR reports provide enough interesting evidence that I remain unsure what to think. I wish I could have an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR. Why is the term 'near death' not acceptable? It will change over time. Whether the brain is flat lined or not depends a lot on where the electrodes are placed. Usually they are looking at alpha and beta wave forms that occur near the surface of the brain. I accompanied a student to the EEG lab where they induced a seizure and monitored the activity with an array of 23 electrodes. During the seizure there was no indication of abnormal activity. I flat line EEG is only one of many measurements. |
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Post by bubbles on Jan 11, 2016 10:52:16 GMT -5
We (some believers) accept that our soul(mind will emotions) and spirit (invisible body) is connected to the heart and mind (physical body) What happens when a person is given a mechanical heart? It is generally accepted that during sleep the conscious brain is not active and not thinking. It is pretty much the definition of sleep. Functioning where? You need to say more about the mechanical heart. If you mean I was given one remain alive soul spirit remain the same. I would assume. A clone is programmed.
Yes the big question where? Somewhere. Out there. Not in here. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 11, 2016 14:03:54 GMT -5
Perhaps part of the confusion comes from thinking about "the point when death has occurred" as a fixed definable biological point. There is a fixed clinical definition of death, but it is used out of utility in medicine. Yes, I think you are right, XNA. Believers want to make sure we emphasize that the experiencers are dead. Skeptics want to make sure we use a definition of death that emphasizes the experiencers are still alive. To me, neither is important; I don't care whether they're dead or alive. The important thing is cessation of activity of the body, because that is where the mystery comes in. How are people forming memories and experiencing events when their brain isn't working? Let's drop the word "death" from all conversation and just discuss the mystery like adults. I think it is interesting that many types of peak, transpersonal, hyper-real experiences are frequently associated with undeniably low (potentially absent?) brain activity. (NDE’s are just one example where these kinds of experiences can occur.) Many of these experiences are highly-structured, coherent, complex, palpable and many fully-functional brains would probably be challenged to imagine such vivid scenarios. This is not a problem if you are of the view/ opinion/belief that consciousness exists outside of the brain and the function of the brain is to localize consciousness. It is somewhat more problematic if you are of the view/opinion/belief that that there is nothing to the mind – to the world of subjective inner experience – that cannot be explained by the physical brain and the electrochemical processes unfolding in it. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 11, 2016 14:30:59 GMT -5
DM and rat, I agree it doesn't matter what we call it so long as we distinguish from the experiences of people whose brain/heart/lungs are still functioning. But to insist on using the phrase NDE so as to emphasize "before death" (that's the only reason DM cares...she thinks that somehow the inappropriate name defines the experience) is silliness, given that researchers in the field are quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical death. They have no interest in hallucinations such as those DM experienced because she did not have an after-clinical-death experience.
Many have pointed out that we have no clear definition for death anymore, one that defines the boundary. Without one, we can argue pointlessly until the cows come home whether or not a resuscitated subject was once dead. I suspect that by any acceptable definition on this board, it'll be clear that almost everyone is buried alive. So can we put our silly argument to bed?
Someone suggested that we refine our search for electrical activity. So, where do we search? Inside the patient's head or on the ceiling? Out-of-body experiences during an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR are common, and almost always the vantage point as the subjects watch their own operation is from the ceiling.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 11, 2016 14:35:27 GMT -5
XNA's suggestion that EWOACALFAFLOTBBBRs occur during resuscitation rather than while the brain is shutting down might be worth investigating. Of course, like the pre-death theories, we have to assume that every subject who recites events that happened during surgery is outright lying, has received information about the surgery from a 3rd party in order to practice deception, and either the doctors are deceived by the patients or the doctors are in on the lie.
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Post by xna on Jan 11, 2016 14:48:55 GMT -5
Oculus Rift VR might help some soon "see god". Some churches are now using it. rch |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 14:57:18 GMT -5
Whatever experienced it was not the same as what DMG experienced by her own description. This is just as likely to have nothing to do with what another experienced as any other alternative. Each person can only report/answer for their own experience as best they possibly can.
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Post by xna on Jan 11, 2016 15:21:15 GMT -5
I am always amazed by how a healthy, alert, and awake human's can so easily be fooled. There are many cases where we just can't believe our own senses.
Take for example the Penn & Teller's show in Vegas. They tell you it's a magic trick and intend to fool you upfront, they tell you how they are going to fool you, you watch the trick, but you still think it's magic. You can't believe your own eyes. You want to believe the magic.
Immersive VR can fool you. Disney can fool you. Pilots are trained to fly the instruments because your senses can fool you when you try to recover from unusual attitudes. The autokinetic effect can fool you. Optical illusions can fool you. M. C. Echer can fool you. In all these, all your senses tell you something is real, that is not real. If this can commonly happen to healthy, awake and aware people, how much then more could you be fooled during a NDE. No doubt NDE are real experiences, but I am skeptical if they are based on objective reality when considering how easy we are fooled by our own senses.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 11, 2016 18:16:16 GMT -5
DM and rat, I agree it doesn't matter what we call it so long as we distinguish from the experiences of people whose brain/heart/lungs are still functioning. But to insist on using the phrase NDE so as to emphasize "before death" (that's the only reason DM cares...she thinks that somehow the inappropriate name defines the experience) is silliness, given that researchers in the field are quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical death. They have no interest in hallucinations such as those DM experienced because she did not have an after-clinical-death experience. Many have pointed out that we have no clear definition for death anymore, one that defines the boundary. Without one, we can argue pointlessly until the cows come home whether or not a resuscitated subject was once dead. I suspect that by any acceptable definition on this board, it'll be clear that almost everyone is buried alive. So can we put our silly argument to bed?Someone suggested that we refine our search for electrical activity. So, where do we search? Inside the patient's head or on the ceiling? Out-of-body experiences during an EWOACALFAFLOTBBBR are common, and almost always the vantage point as the subjects watch their own operation is from the ceiling.
You may not want to believe that I know what "death" looks like, but I do know "dead" when I see it.
I am a Registered Nurse and have been for more that forty years of my life.
I have seen more deaths during that time than I can remember.
You may call what I say a "silly argument" if you like and not want to use the term NDE but that was the term you used in your own thread: "Do NDE's help us understand God?"
It was YOU who used the term NDE.
Now you seem to want to re-define it on your terms.
Your question was, "Do NDE's help us understand God?"
My answer is, "NDE's help us understand our BRAIN," with no need for a paranormal being called "god" involved.
Apparently my answer doesn't suit you, so I'll just leave you to answer your own question.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 11, 2016 19:55:38 GMT -5
Dubious Disciple, -I read your researchers and I do NOT see any of them being as "quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical deathTry reading Erasing Death, by Sam Parnia (I haven't gotten around to reviewing it). It's the most focused I've found so far on the topic.He spends half the book talking about advancements in resuscitation for people who have died, before getting around to discussing what he prefers to call "after death experiences." If you're up for your own research, head over to www.windbridge.org/ wher eyou can find peer reviewed research papers. I'm pretty skeptical when I review books on the topic, but that's not the point. I don't mean to sound blunt, but you simply are way over your head in this conversation, DM, and no amount of shouting will make you appear less naive about the research going on. Here, I'll quote from the wiki XNA posted: "A near-death experience may refer to anything experienced by someone in clinical death, though usually refers to some kind of spiritual experience, such as an out-of-body experience, and is often cited as evidence for the existence of an afterlife by believers." |
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Post by joanna on Jan 11, 2016 21:03:28 GMT -5
Dubious Disciple (xdc) wrote "....you simply are way over your head in this conversation". What criteria are you using to determine that someone is 'way over their head' when discussing the topic of NDE's?
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Post by Lee on Jan 11, 2016 21:38:59 GMT -5
By what criteria does a physicalist determine anything?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 11, 2016 21:53:34 GMT -5
Dubious Disciple (xdc) wrote "....you simply are way over your head in this conversation". What criteria are you using to determine that someone is 'way over their head' when discussing the topic of NDE's? "Dubious Disciple, -I read your researchers and I do NOT see any of them being as "quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical death," as you claim." -dmmichgood What further evidence do you need that she knows nothing about the topic? Yet she continues to make bold assertions, including the most comical one of all...that the old label of "near death experience" somehow means the subjects under study today did not die even a clinical death. I like DM, but repeating her misguided opinion louder and louder doesn't impress anyone. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 11, 2016 22:12:50 GMT -5
Dubious Disciple, -I read your researchers and I do NOT see any of them being as "quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical deathTry reading Erasing Death, by Sam Parnia (I haven't gotten around to reviewing it). It's the most focused I've found so far on the topic.He spends half the book talking about advancements in resuscitation for people who have died, before getting around to discussing what he prefers to call "after death experiences." If you're up for your own research, head over to www.windbridge.org/ where you can find peer reviewed research papers. I'm pretty skeptical when I review books on the topic, but that's not the point. I don't mean to sound blunt, but you simply are way over your head in this conversation, DM, and no amount of shouting will make you appear less naive about the research going on. Here, I'll quote from the wiki XNA posted: "A near-death experience may refer to anything experienced by someone in clinical death, though usually refers to some kind of spiritual experience, such as an out-of-body experience, and is often cited as evidence for the existence of an afterlife by believers."
However, since you have made up your mind that I am "simply are way over your head" on this subject, and my "shouting" apparently annoys you & my answers doesn't fit what you want to hear, - I'll just leave you to answer the question of your own thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 0:18:20 GMT -5
Try reading Erasing Death, by Sam Parnia (I haven't gotten around to reviewing it). It's the most focused I've found so far on the topic.He spends half the book talking about advancements in resuscitation for people who have died, before getting around to discussing what he prefers to call "after death experiences." If you're up for your own research, head over to www.windbridge.org/ where you can find peer reviewed research papers. I'm pretty skeptical when I review books on the topic, but that's not the point. I don't mean to sound blunt, but you simply are way over your head in this conversation, DM, and no amount of shouting will make you appear less naive about the research going on. Here, I'll quote from the wiki XNA posted: "A near-death experience may refer to anything experienced by someone in clinical death, though usually refers to some kind of spiritual experience, such as an out-of-body experience, and is often cited as evidence for the existence of an afterlife by believers."
However, since you have made up your mind that I am "simply are way over your head" on this subject, and my "shouting" apparently annoys you & my answers doesn't fit what you want to hear, - I'll just leave you to answer the question of your own thread.
[/b][/font][/quote] *Ok, DMG, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider your wild claim(s.) You have no idea how many deaths former combat veterans have seen, and especially medics called to see if a wounded man, friend or foe can be saved. Not only is it of repeated nightmares, but also the loss of warriors, but of unarmed civilians and in my case, a loved translator who bled out in my arms.
So, how many have actually died in your presence and care? Are you sure it hasn't been in the practice of your profession and you did not actually witness the passing?
I remember witnessing the passing of a great aunt, of a beloved young woman, of one of my own commanders, as well as numerous warriors (both sides) and civilians who had to be placed in body bags and documented by a witness of the death when and where possible. A lifetime of inescapable memories, repeated nightmares, grief, overwhelming sorrow.
Your writings on the other hand are apparently dispassionate about the many deaths you have witnessed. There are a couple of others who served as combat medics in this forum. They will attest to the emotional stress involved, confirming if willing what I have expressed here.
Just my last hospital stay resulted in the death of a roommate, and I had to make the final call in the night. Soo, soon it will be me. I do not want to depart as dispassionate and calloused as your posts come across, which finally have compelled this post after your repeated comments about your experiences. Nor do I want anyone of your ilk at my side when passing from this awareness. But what will be, will be. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2016 0:46:54 GMT -5
Whatever experienced it was not the same as what DMG experienced by her own description. This is just as likely to have nothing to do with what another experienced as any other alternative. Each person can only report/answer for their own experience as best they possibly can.
What I realized was that what I was "seeing" were not actually happening, but never-the-less I was "seeing" these "pictures" as if they were real.
However, I was aware that they was a result of something happening in my brain.
When my blood pressure was back to normal and I was able to pass the "stroke" test the doctor was going to send me home, yet I was still "seeing" those pictures and he had not even done a CAT Scan!
We had a bit of a disagreement over that!
He agreed that "if it would make me feel better, he would do a CAT Scan, but he could already tell me what it would show." (nothing)
After the scan, I thought that he would never get around to admitting that indeed the Scan showed a "mass" and they were transferring me to a larger hospital.
I never once doubted the fact that although I was having an unrealistic abnormal experience that it was in no way anything outside of my physical being.
As the situation unfolded, with the position of the mass, -by the optic nerve & with the edema around it, the treatment to relieve that edema the abnormal perception was resolved.
I am aware that not every abnormal experience is as easily explained as mine.
Everyone has a right to believe what they want to be about the cause of their experience.
As for me, I have yet to hear of any experience, NDE or otherwise, to convince me that they are anything other than physical.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2016 1:17:45 GMT -5
<abbr data-timestamp="1452575900000" class="time" title="Jan 11, 2016 23:18:20 GMT -6">n 11, 2016 23:18:20 GMT -6</abbr> Dennis Jacobsen said: I have probably seen more deaths than anyone here on this board* & have done my own research on the subject of NDE's.
However, since you have made up your mind that I am "simply are way over your head" on this subject, and my "shouting" apparently annoys you & my answers doesn't fit what you want to hear, - I'll just leave you to answer the question of your own thread.
[/b][/font][/quote] *Ok, DMG, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider your wild claim(s.) You have no idea how many deaths former combat veterans have seen, and especially medics called to see if a wounded man, friend or foe can be saved. Not only is it of repeated nightmares, but also the loss of warriors, but of unarmed civilians and in my case, a loved translator who bled out in my arms.
So, how many have actually died in your presence and care? Are you sure it hasn't been in the practice of your profession and you did not actually witness the passing?
I remember witnessing the passing of a great aunt, of a beloved young woman, of one of my own commanders, as well as numerous warriors (both sides) and civilians who had to be placed in body bags and documented by a witness of the death when and where possible. A lifetime of inescapable memories, repeated nightmares, grief, overwhelming sorrow.
Your writings on the other hand are apparently dispassionate about the many deaths you have witnessed. There are a couple of others who served as combat medics in this forum. They will attest to the emotional stress involved, confirming if willing what I have expressed here.
Just my last hospital stay resulted in the death of a roommate, and I had to make the final call in the night. Soo, soon it will be me. I do not want to depart as dispassionate and calloused as your posts come across, which finally have compelled this post after your repeated comments about your experiences.
Nor do I want anyone of your ilk at my side when passing from this awareness. But what will be, will be. [/quote] OK, Dennis.
Let's just "reconsider" those "wild claim(s.)" of mine!
Yes, I do have an idea how many deaths former combat veterans have seen, and especially medics.
My husband was a medic in WWII and I heard his stories and know the emotional stress he was under.
How many years were you a medic?
Anywhere near the forty years that I was Registered Nurse?
YOUR QUOTE:
"how many have actually died in your presence and care? Are you sure it hasn't been in the practice of your profession and you did not actually witness the passing?"
Why do you doubt my word? Do you think that I am lieing?
Certainly they were in my "presence and care" and yes, I did "actually witness the passing!"
Good grief!
Forty years and you think that I am not telling the truth?
As for the rest of your post concerning your evaluation of me as dispassionate and calloused, I am simply not going to reply. That hurts too much.
You have no idea of the tears I've shed.
Goodbye.
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 8:41:19 GMT -5
Again, the thing to understand about the experiences that matter to us here is that clinical death HAS OCCURRED. Again, at one time, not long ago, clinical death meant your breath would not fog a mirror. Somewhat later it was the lack of a heartbeat. These things change so when someone claims they were 'dead' for 15 minutes you need to ask what the criteria was to make that claim. Immediately, then, this account was told mental health Drs. who did not believe it was merely a hallucination, rather an "unexplainable" experience. The experts in this forum, never experiencing such a thing, quickly stated as fact my unbalanced state of mind brought on some sort of hallucination. Needless to say, their opinions from that point forward became just that to me, at the advice of advanced mental health specialists and professionals. It seems to be a mixed message. @dennisj had posted this and described other events on this forum. In these cases he describes seeing things that others do not see. It is unclear why anyone would say these were not hallucinations. It is very clear why the doctors would say they do not know what caused these hallucinations since they were not the focus of the procedure. It also seems strange that @dennisj can claim that no one else on this forum has experienced hallucinations. I personally have have experienced fever induced hallucinations since I was about 9 years old. I have also had 4 heart procedures and major surgery. It seems to me that the major difference is what cause each person claims caused the hallucination. In general, EEGs are not very good at measuring the neural activity in the cortex of the brain. Flat line EEGs usually mean a lack of upper layer neural activity. |
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 9:40:06 GMT -5
XNA's suggestion that EWOACALFAFLOTBBBRs occur during resuscitation rather than while the brain is shutting down might be worth investigating. Of course, like the pre-death theories, we have to assume that every subject who recites events that happened during surgery is outright lying, has received information about the surgery from a 3rd party in order to practice deception, and either the doctors are deceived by the patients or the doctors are in on the lie. I don't think it is accurate to say the people who have NDEs are lying or trying to deceive anyone. They believe what they are saying and have attributed the events to what they believe might be the cause. Many people, for example, have read of accounts of people seeing a bright light. Many of the accounts say it is some spiritual cause. If a theist has an NDE and sees the light the first conclusion is that they are looking into paradise. As an atheist my first conclusion would be that there is a lack of oxygen and my brain was shutting down. And a healthy dose of noradrenaline will provide a lot of very warm and friendly feelings that are comforting. As Dr Parnia (who did a 3 year study of people's experiences with NDEs) said,"Every experience, whether near-death or otherwise – such as depression, happiness and love – is mediated by the brain." |
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 10:06:28 GMT -5
*Ok, DMG, perhaps it is time for you to reconsider your wild claim(s.) You have no idea how many deaths former combat veterans have seen, and especially medics called to see if a wounded man, friend or foe can be saved. Not only is it of repeated nightmares, but also the loss of warriors, but of unarmed civilians and in my case, a loved translator who bled out in my arms. By the same token you have no idea of the experiences of those posting here. Those of us who have worked in medical situations have certainly seen a number of people die. We have also seen people resuscitated. We have seen people whose bodies have been brought back to life with the exception of their brains. If you want to see a startling change in a person's situation, administer a dose of naloxone to a person who has overdosed on opiates. Before you know it they will be cursing you for "bringing them back". Personally, I have not been counting. Not everyone wears their heart on their sleeve. If you actually want to help people in times of great stress emotional reactions can actually cloud your vision of what needs to be done. Because people can carry on discussions without emotional drama does not mean they show not emotion when involved in the situation. I personally would be grateful for anyone who made the effort to hang out with me while I am shuffling off this mortal coil! But be warned, I can't promise I will be able to completely curb my sarcasm and I am guessing all filters will be off! |
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Post by xna on Jan 12, 2016 10:50:06 GMT -5
But be warned, I can't promise I will be able to completely curb my sarcasm and I am guessing all filters will be off! That reminds me about a professing fear I once had; turning off the filters. Let's say you do a really good job of professing your entire life, all at 100% of your ability, but then at the last moments of your life, as you are dying in a painful death you blaspheme god. Like the guy on the cross who was saved at the last hour, you could doom yourself to hell in that last hour. The same risks exist for those who turn senile. It seems so silly now, but it was part of the baggage of a works based salvation model. I assume this remains a real fear for millions of believers. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 12, 2016 12:27:45 GMT -5
I don't think it is accurate to say the people who have NDEs are lying or trying to deceive anyone. They believe what they are saying and have attributed the events to what they believe might be the cause. When a patient later says to a nurse whom he had never seen in his life, but who was attending surgery while he was clinically dead, "you are the person I watched remove my false teeth during surgery," that is the sort of mystery we need to critically examine. Is it an outright lie in cahoots with someone attending the surgery, an amazing guess, an embellished story on the part of the doctors/nurses who told it (and of the patient himself when later interviewed), or some other explanation? |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 12, 2016 12:43:14 GMT -5
I have probably seen more deaths than anyone here on this board. Not meaning to sound picky, but by your own definition of death, you have probably never witnessed a death in your life. |
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 13:04:03 GMT -5
I don't think it is accurate to say the people who have NDEs are lying or trying to deceive anyone. They believe what they are saying and have attributed the events to what they believe might be the cause. When a patient later says to a nurse whom he had never seen in his life, but who was attending surgery while he was clinically dead, "you are the person I watched remove my false teeth during surgery," that is the sort of mystery we need to critically examine. Is it an outright lie in cahoots with someone attending the surgery, an amazing guess, an embellished story on the part of the doctors/nurses who told it (and of the patient himself when later interviewed), or some other explanation? If that was the story there would be a lot of red flags since false teeth are generally not removed in the OR. That being said (and just as easily dismissed) there are a a number of ways a patient could learn who removed the teeth and then piece that into the recovery scenario - something as simple as an aid asking who removed the teeth or someone asking where the teeth are and being told to find Gail since she was the one who forgot to remove the teeth prior to the patient having surgery. |
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 13:24:05 GMT -5
I have probably seen more deaths than anyone here on this board. Not meaning to sound picky, but by your own definition of death, you have probably never witnessed a death in your life. There have always been cases where 'dead' people awake in the morgue. Would death be when the last cell with human DNA dies? Sperm have known to survive for 36 hours. Of course, if the death is in a cold location deep frozen sperm might be alive after 20 years. That raises, of course, another thought. Using IVF and removing the zygote to be frozen and preserved iot is known that it is still alive after at least 8 years and has the ability to develop onto a fully functioning human being. Death might be difficult to pin down. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 12, 2016 13:52:00 GMT -5
When a patient later says to a nurse whom he had never seen in his life, but who was attending surgery while he was clinically dead, "you are the person I watched remove my false teeth during surgery," that is the sort of mystery we need to critically examine. Is it an outright lie in cahoots with someone attending the surgery, an amazing guess, an embellished story on the part of the doctors/nurses who told it (and of the patient himself when later interviewed), or some other explanation? If that was the story there would be a lot of red flags since false teeth are generally not removed in the OR. That being said (and just as easily dismissed) there are a a number of ways a patient could learn who removed the teeth and then piece that into the recovery scenario - something as simple as an aid asking who removed the teeth or someone asking where the teeth are and being told to find Gail since she was the one who forgot to remove the teeth prior to the patient having surgery. Then you ARE proposing an outright lie, presumably for the purpose of bolstering the actuality of the NDE. I'm sure it happens. |
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Post by rational on Jan 12, 2016 15:45:30 GMT -5
If that was the story there would be a lot of red flags since false teeth are generally not removed in the OR. That being said (and just as easily dismissed) there are a a number of ways a patient could learn who removed the teeth and then piece that into the recovery scenario - something as simple as an aid asking who removed the teeth or someone asking where the teeth are and being told to find Gail since she was the one who forgot to remove the teeth prior to the patient having surgery. Then you ARE proposing an outright lie, presumably for the purpose of bolstering the actuality of the NDE. I'm sure it happens. I am NOT proposing an outright lie. I am offering a couple of ways that the patient might have known/learned who took out their false teeth. In this situation the brain is shutting down/dying. It is a new experience for the brain and it assembles any information in an attempt to make sense of the data. This happens all the time in real life. The brain is presented with ambiguous data and it tries to assign meaning - finding meaningful patterns in meaningless noise. Pareidolia or apophenia are good terms. Think of the Man in the Moon. Or cheese Mary: |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 12, 2016 17:39:42 GMT -5
Dubious Disciple (xdc) wrote "....you simply are way over your head in this conversation". What criteria are you using to determine that someone is 'way over their head' when discussing the topic of NDE's? "Dubious Disciple, -I read your researchers and I do NOT see any of them being as "quick to point out that the subjects they are studying have truly died...at least a clinical death," as you claim." -dmmichgood What further evidence do you need that she knows nothing about the topic? Yet she continues to make bold assertions, including the most comical one of all...that the old label of "near death experience" somehow means the subjects under study today did not die even a clinical death. I like DM, but repeating her misguided opinion louder and louder doesn't impress anyone.
However, your expressed contempt of my knowledge that I know "nothing about the topic" & that I make "bold" and "comical" "misguided" assertions after 40 years of experience being a Reg. Nurse is belittling & derisive and cannot voided or annulled by saying that you "like" me. |
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