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Post by rational on Jan 14, 2016 12:56:09 GMT -5
Maybe we can observe what appears to be designed by Creator that will continually vet until all is perfectly vetted This flies in the face of logic. An omnipotent omniscient being would have no need to iterate through flawed designs to find the correct one. Yet for all of your rhetoric I have not seen a single thing that could not have come into being without a creator. Can you explain the wonderful design that results in about a 6% failure rate in humans? I guess what you are saying is that people can watch others being buried in a mudslide and still say - "Oh look. Isn't that a wonderfully designed river of mud that is conveniently burying the victims as it kills them."
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Post by Almostheaven on Jan 14, 2016 16:55:52 GMT -5
Nevertheless , I will be most happy for my place on this planet, until a better earth appears! make it 100!
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Post by rational on Jan 14, 2016 21:37:47 GMT -5
Nevertheless , I will be most happy for my place on this planet, until a better earth appears! make it 100! All it will take is one errant chunk of rock smashing into the earth and this might become a completely different place. Better? Worse? Depends on your point of view. The earth really doesn't care.
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Post by Almostheaven on Jan 14, 2016 23:26:21 GMT -5
Better? Worse? Depends on your point of view. The earth really doesn't care. [ One day this earth will pass on due to its diminished purpose
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Post by Commonman on May 29, 2016 13:04:56 GMT -5
Do moral compasses do more to help or hinder the morals of a society?
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Post by rational on May 30, 2016 8:28:43 GMT -5
Do moral compasses do more to help or hinder the morals of a society? Depends on who developed the compass.
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Post by Commonman on May 30, 2016 11:51:33 GMT -5
Figurative compass, They should be inherent to human beings, Unless we need to "learn morals" from a higher power...
This is something that humans should try to understand, isn't it? Where should we go for answers, if we don't know the answer?
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Post by rational on May 30, 2016 13:06:05 GMT -5
Figurative compass, They should be inherent to human beings, Unless we need to "learn morals" from a higher power... It is a learned behavior. What higher power do you suggest? Ra? Saturn? Zeus? What higher power has a good moral record? They might need to understand where morals actually originate. Saying a higher power really does not provide an answer.
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Post by Commonman on May 30, 2016 14:38:09 GMT -5
Figurative compass, They should be inherent to human beings, Unless we need to "learn morals" from a higher power... It is a learned behavior. What higher power do you suggest? Ra? Saturn? Zeus? What higher power has a good moral record? They might need to understand where morals actually originate. Saying a higher power really does not provide an answer. Didn't God say , this is my beloved son, hear what He says. Yes, we can follow a human example that we know has a very good conduct, and moral code. Is this agreeable solution , to you, also ?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 30, 2016 20:15:42 GMT -5
Figurative compass, They should be inherent to human beings, Unless we need to "learn morals" from a higher power... This is something that humans should try to understand, isn't it? Where should we go for answers, if we don't know the answer? We do learn morality but it isn't necessary to do so through a "higher power."
We have learned it by understanding that reciprocity with those that we live amongst allows us to live in more peaceful existence.
Reciprocity is when there is situation or relationship between two or more people or groups & they agree to help each other & to allow each other to have the same rights, the same treatment that they hope to enjoy themselves.
By doing so, they each can feel safe that their neighbor isn't going to enter their house without permission & take their life or their belongings.
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Post by Commonman on May 31, 2016 3:12:50 GMT -5
Is abortion a moral issue ? At what do children get rights to make moral agreements on their own and with out feeling unsafe or guilty about their choice. ....hmmm
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Post by dmmichgood on May 31, 2016 13:18:54 GMT -5
Is abortion a moral issue ? At what do children get rights to make moral agreements on their own and with out feeling unsafe or guilty about their choice. ....hmmm Yes, abortion is a moral issue.
Yes, children do have rights to make moral agreements on their own and with out feeling unsafe or guilty about their choice.
Absolutely.
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Post by Commonman on May 31, 2016 17:03:53 GMT -5
what about children that enter into a moral agreement, that others including their parents Object to... Is it too late to rescind the agreement?
Some children need to be protected from unwise choices , IMO.
Could you modify your code a bit?
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Post by Commonman on May 31, 2016 17:11:20 GMT -5
Of course if we assume that children will always make the choice that is wisest, then do the parents have to negotiate their responsibilities?
It seems like it would take a lot of agreements that could be easier accomplished with proper parenting and doing unto others as you would that they do unto you..... it makes good use of what Jesus tried to show us how to live.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 31, 2016 18:44:26 GMT -5
what about children that enter into a moral agreement, that others including their parents Object to... Is it too late to rescind the agreement? Some children need to be protected from unwise choices , IMO. Could you modify your code a bit? When what morality means is explained to children by their parents AND that it is also modeled by their parents (this is a big part of it) they usually can be counted on to make the right choices.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 31, 2016 18:55:56 GMT -5
Of course if we assume that children will always make the choice that is wisest, then do the parents have to negotiate their responsibilities? It seems like it would take a lot of agreements that could be easier accomplished with proper parenting and doing unto others as you would that they do unto you..... it makes good use of what Jesus tried to show us how to live. Of course proper parenting is "doing unto others as you would that they do unto you..... "
However,one doesn't need a higher power to realize is the best way, Jesus or no one else.
And in fact Jesus wasn't the first one to advocate that principle. As I said as mankind evolved, they realized that reciprocity WAS the the way to act towards others.
Actually, I don't see Jesus always following that principle.
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Post by Commonman on May 31, 2016 19:08:52 GMT -5
Could you give me names of people that teach your moral code. And references that I can evaluate your ideas?
Thank you
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 1, 2016 0:01:14 GMT -5
Could you give me names of people that teach your moral code. And references that I can evaluate your ideas? Thank you I don't understand. Do you mean people that teach ME personally? or people who teach codes of morality in general?
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Post by Commonman on Jun 1, 2016 1:02:09 GMT -5
Why is there something , why is there a universe?
Could there be a superior home to dwell in, and no conscious beings dwelling there that could enjoy it ?? A marvelous utopia that remains uninhabited by living beings that would enjoy the thought that perhaps there is a purpose that these marvelous places might exist for a reason
Perhaps consciousness needs to exist first. Consciousness can consciously create such a place. and not just as a "mind exercise ". Hmm
A consciousness that is eternal and has a nature that also is eternal. What could that nature consist of? It seems that there is a quality that requires eternal traits that among them we can observe what these qualities are... and these qualities have the quality that has existed from eternity, and throughout eternity.
We can call these qualities by a name, yet that does not in any way restrict the quality.
I would propose that one such eternal quality must be justices , it is a most wonderful quality In its purity untainted state, if one could be so privledge to "observe it" . Hmmmm
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Post by rational on Jun 1, 2016 11:57:04 GMT -5
Why is there something , why is there a universe? Could there be a superior home to dwell in, and no conscious beings dwelling there that could enjoy it ?? A marvelous utopia that remains uninhabited by living beings that would enjoy the thought that perhaps there is a purpose that these marvelous places might exist for a reason I think the root meaning of utopia is an excellent description! Accurate too.
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Post by Commonman on Jun 1, 2016 16:03:05 GMT -5
Why is there something , why is there a universe? Could there be a superior home to dwell in, and no conscious beings dwelling there that could enjoy it ?? A marvelous utopia that remains uninhabited by living beings that would enjoy the thought that perhaps there is a purpose that these marvelous places might exist for a reason I think the root meaning of utopia is an excellent description! Accurate too. [br No time for politics today, maybe later.
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Post by Commonman on Jun 2, 2016 6:12:40 GMT -5
Why is there something , why is there a universe? Could there be a superior home to dwell in, and no conscious beings dwelling there that could enjoy it ?? A marvelous utopia that remains uninhabited by living beings that would enjoy the thought that perhaps there is a purpose that these marvelous places might exist for a reason I think the root meaning of utopia is an excellent description! Accurate too. Well, if you would have read the next paragraph, there is reference of this being a very unlikely Scenario, also. In order for there to be a perfect dwelling place, there needs to be a Creator with intentions to make such a place. It would be very accurate to conclude that such a place could never exist without a purpose and a creator ! Thank you for your analysis .
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Post by Commonman on Jun 2, 2016 8:25:00 GMT -5
In order for there to be something, there needs to be something .
The question could be " is that something a something such as Consciousness .
That consciousness could have unlimited and eternal qualities .
I like this thought that Principles are a quality of eternal consciousness , and eternal justice is far above what human beings understand about "carnal" justice -- an eye for an eye, etc.
Human morals are rooted in eternal justices.
Without eternal justice, human morals would not exist, well then .... Human beings would not exist either ..... hmm
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 2, 2016 16:09:29 GMT -5
I think the root meaning of utopia is an excellent description! Accurate too. Well, if you would have read the next paragraph, there is reference of this being a very unlikely Scenario, also. In order for there to be a perfect dwelling place, there needs to be a Creator with intentions to make such a place. It would be very accurate to conclude that such a place could never exist without a purpose and a creator ! Thank you for your analysis . You are correct that a Utopia, a perfect place, is indeed unlikely to exist! However, that hasn't caused people to cease to long for such a place e.g., Heaven!
Why do people want a perfect place? Probably because life seems so complicated & often difficult.
Definition of a utopia: "A utopia is an imagined community or society that possesses highly desirable or nearly perfect qualities."
The word was coined by Sir Thomas More in 1516 book Utopia . The term has been used to describe both intentional communities that attempt to create ideal societies, and the imagined societies portrayed in fiction. Again, you are right that in order for there to be a perfect dwelling place, there needs to be a creator with intentions to make such a place. The "creator" can be either a supernatural or a natural (human) creator.
It can be an "imagined" community either created by a supernatural being like the creation of such a place called "heaven" or a human author like Sir Thomas More's 1516 book called Utopia or Plato's Republic.
There are "physical" places which are intentionally created by people. In the US a famous one was Oneida Community in New York.
Utopian communities although they are supposed to "perfect" the perfection is in the eyes of the beholder who created it and doesn't cover all people. There are always strings attached as how to be a member of the community.
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Post by rational on Jun 2, 2016 16:32:48 GMT -5
From the Greek: οὐ ("not") and τόπος ("place") and means "no-place",
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 2, 2016 16:37:33 GMT -5
From the Greek: οὐ ("not") and τόπος ("place") and means "no-place", Yes, -I noticed that. I definitely is NO PLACE, no matter how hard some people attempt to make it SOME PLACE!
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Post by Commonman on Jun 2, 2016 19:14:55 GMT -5
" Not everything that can be counted, counts. And not everything that cannot be counted, counts."
This sign was Hanging from the door of a famous scientist.
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Post by Commonman on Jun 2, 2016 19:22:01 GMT -5
That is exactly the point, we are agreeing 100%
Habitable paradises , even parts of this earth could easily be considered to be quite wonderfully habitable , and yet there are people that will say it can't happen by accident , there need be a well thought out plan to put a wonderful place into existance.
Some skeptics are coming out of the wood works.
That is encouraging to see.....
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