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Post by Commonman on Jul 11, 2016 10:30:14 GMT -5
According to YOUR theories, there is a purpose, survival of species. According to Gods plan, the purpose is transformation into eternal Life. And references for this 'plan' can be found where? This is nothing more than your belief. The whole bible is written for the purpose of knowing the purpose of this world, and human life. Just keep reading a nd it will be revealed to you, also.
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Post by rational on Jul 11, 2016 12:38:08 GMT -5
And references for this 'plan' can be found where? This is nothing more than your belief. The whole bible is written for the purpose of knowing the purpose of this world, and human life. Just keep reading a nd it will be revealed to you, also. :) So the short answer is - No, there is nothing to prove there is a plan.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 12:56:29 GMT -5
Jesus verified the prophesies about Him being the messiah . The Jewish rabbi will be happy to fill in the prophesies that did not concern Jesus. Just ask him. If the prophesy didn't occur yet, then we will be content to wait. According to the bible the messiah, among other things, will: - Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
- Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
- Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
- Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
Failing to fulfill any of these conditions, and a person cannot be the messiah. some of those are predictions for after judgment day...
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Post by rational on Jul 11, 2016 13:02:31 GMT -5
According to the bible the messiah, among other things, will: - Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
- Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
- Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
- Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
Failing to fulfill any of these conditions, and a person cannot be the messiah. some of those are predictions for after judgment day... I believe the claims were that the Messiah would have fulfilled the predictions and this is how it would be known that it was the true Messiah. As you are saying Jesus is not yet the messiah.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2016 13:07:07 GMT -5
some of those are predictions for after judgment day... I believe the claims were that the Messiah would have fulfilled the predictions and this is how it would be known that it was the true Messiah. As you are saying Jesus is not yet the messiah. he will still be the messiah after judgment day...
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Post by rational on Jul 12, 2016 5:19:04 GMT -5
I believe the claims were that the Messiah would have fulfilled the predictions and this is how it would be known that it was the true Messiah. As you are saying Jesus is not yet the messiah. he will still be the messiah after judgment day... The point was that until all of the 'predictions' have been fulfilled he is not the messiah. The OT defines the messiah as someone who has fulfilled the 'predictions' not someone who might fulfill them at some later date.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 12, 2016 7:07:56 GMT -5
He also did miracles to show that God sent Him
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Post by rational on Jul 12, 2016 11:05:26 GMT -5
He also did miracles to show that God sent Him The marble statues crying in various churches were considered miracles too - until the trick of how it was done was discovered. What some thought was Mary on a grilled cheese was considered a miracle. But that was not the question. Chapters and verses that support your claim(s)?
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Post by Commonman on Jul 12, 2016 11:34:31 GMT -5
He also did miracles to show that God sent Him The marble statues crying in various churches were considered miracles too - until the trick of how it was done was discovered. What some thought was Mary on a grilled cheese was considered a miracle. But that was not the question. Chapters and verses that support your claim(s)? Hmmm, scientists were thought to prove theories , yet they distort and commit fraud with their data.
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Post by rational on Jul 12, 2016 13:01:23 GMT -5
The marble statues crying in various churches were considered miracles too - until the trick of how it was done was discovered. What some thought was Mary on a grilled cheese was considered a miracle. But that was not the question. Chapters and verses that support your claim(s)? Hmmm, scientists were thought to prove theories , yet they distort and commit fraud with their data. They modify their theories to align with any new data. Feel free to post references to the contrary. Still waiting for the chapter(s) and verse(s) to support your claim(s).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 14:13:24 GMT -5
he will still be the messiah after judgment day... The point was that until all of the 'predictions' have been fulfilled he is not the messiah. The OT defines the messiah as someone who has fulfilled the 'predictions' not someone who might fulfill them at some later date. the predictions are about the WHOLE life of Jesus and that includes anything after his return too...
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Post by rational on Jul 12, 2016 16:54:29 GMT -5
The point was that until all of the 'predictions' have been fulfilled he is not the messiah. The OT defines the messiah as someone who has fulfilled the 'predictions' not someone who might fulfill them at some later date. the predictions are about the WHOLE life of Jesus and that includes anything after his return too... This is like saying that whoever scores 1,000 points will the champion and then stating that Mr. X is the champion even though he has only scored 10 points so far but will probably score the remaining 9,990 points at some time in the future. But it make as much sense as many other beliefs. Go for it. From the Jews who are waiting for their messiah and more reasons why Jesus didn't meet the requirements: - Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy could only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (~300 BCE) the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, thus prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets (Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi). Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
- Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by G-ds.
- Tradition teaches that the Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. Deut. 13:1-4 states that all mitzvahs remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states its commandments are no longer applicable. (John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 17:33:33 GMT -5
the predictions are about the WHOLE life of Jesus and that includes anything after his return too... - Jesus was not descended from King David. Per Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1, the Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David. However, according to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from a verse in Isaiah describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by G-ds.
- if you read BOTH geaneologies in the bible David is included in both of them...joeseph brings the paper title i think through solomon davids son and mary brings the blood title through nathan davids other son...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 13, 2016 1:47:26 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
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Post by Commonman on Jul 13, 2016 8:02:55 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
Good to know you are beginning to understand these things
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Post by rational on Jul 13, 2016 9:14:50 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
Good to know you are beginning to understand these things I think it has always been understood. When the data does not support the claims redefine the words. I don't recall 'paper title' being in the biblical text.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 13, 2016 23:12:17 GMT -5
I believe this means: that through Jesus' fathers
fraternal lineage , Jesus is a descendant of : King David, King Solomon , etc....
this was to fulfil the legal (on paper) title of King of Israel .
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Post by rational on Jul 14, 2016 5:26:13 GMT -5
I believe this means: that through Jesus' fathers fraternal lineage , Jesus is a descendant of : King David, King Solomon , etc.... this was to fulfil the legal (on paper) title of King of Israel . Sure. Paper trails were so much a part of proving lineage to the jews. There must be hundreds of examples in the bible. Can you name one other case?
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Post by Commonman on Jul 14, 2016 7:57:48 GMT -5
I believe this means: that through Jesus' fathers fraternal lineage , Jesus is a descendant of : King David, King Solomon , etc.... this was to fulfil the legal (on paper) title of King of Israel . Sure. Paper trails were so much a part of proving lineage to the jews. There must be hundreds of examples in the bible. Can you name one other case? Genisis 11:10-27
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Post by rational on Jul 14, 2016 9:18:59 GMT -5
Sure. Paper trails were so much a part of proving lineage to the jews. There must be hundreds of examples in the bible. Can you name one other case? Genisis 11:10-27 A great example of a listing of the lineage. But you were going to show a place where the linage was only supported by legal means (a "paper title") rather than the actual physical relationship listed in your genesis reference.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 14, 2016 9:55:12 GMT -5
A great example of a listing of the lineage. But you were going to show a place where the linage was only supported by legal means (a "paper title") rather than the actual physical relationship listed in your genesis reference. I Have no clue what you are saying or asking
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Post by rational on Jul 15, 2016 8:56:49 GMT -5
A great example of a listing of the lineage. But you were going to show a place where the linage was only supported by legal means (a "paper title") rather than the actual physical relationship listed in your genesis reference. I Have no clue what you are saying or asking Then I guess there is no discussion.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 15, 2016 21:21:30 GMT -5
As we study historical teachers, there is only One that excels all others in wisdom and perfection of thought and doctrine. Only one.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 15, 2016 22:06:11 GMT -5
Since life is totally dependent on an honest and true communication. It should be good to know the source of the perfect doctrine.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 16, 2016 0:57:24 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
Good to know you are beginning to understand these things Understand what? How can I understand. I was asking you questions.
I expected you to show some proof for your statements.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 16, 2016 9:11:22 GMT -5
Good to know you are beginning to understand these things Understand what? How can I understand. I was asking you questions.
I expected you to show some proof for your statements. No, they are not the same, IMO.
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Post by Commonman on Jul 16, 2016 9:19:34 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
is this a serious question? how could these papers be "like" ? just wondering
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 16, 2016 18:06:14 GMT -5
"paper title "?
Is that like adoptions papers?
As for Mary's part, -when did any woman ever have any place in genealogical matters in the bible before?...
is this a serious question? how could these papers be "like" ? just wondering Yes, of course it is a serious question.
What I am asking is what did you mean by a "paper title" when you attempt to establish Jesus lineage trough his "father" Joseph?
You just can't have it both ways. Either Mary was impregnated with Jesus by an angel from god making Jesus the Son of God which is claimed by Christianity and therefore there was no paternal lineage from Joseph back to the old testament or Joseph was indeed the father of Jesus with no supernatural impregnation of Mary which was supposed to have made Jesus the Son of God.
Christianity tries to make Jesus lineage both ways. That impossible!
See?
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