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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 12:22:07 GMT -5
Is your spouse a 2x2 and you are not? Perhaps you were a 2x2, and then you left but your spouse will not leave it. It's a big problem in your marriage that's for sure. You've probably spent thousands of hours trying to explain to your spouse the problems and lies of 2x2ism, but they don't listen or don't want to believe them. You feel frustrated. You don't know what to do. You are probably angry with your spouse for being so unreasonable. However, if you tried to reason with your spouse and it doesn't work, then you have to change tactics. You cannot reason with someone in a cult. But what you can do, is use cult tactics against them. Do exactly what the 2x2s do to convert people, but instead do it to them.
No matter what you believe about God or not God, do not become an atheist. This will make your spouse think you are even crazier than they already do (for leaving the One True Way). In your town or area, visit every mainstream church there is. Talk to the priest/pastor/minister to see if they have a nice personality and if they are knowledgeable about the Bible. When I say mainline church, I mean Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, United, Reform, etc. I do not mean JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Church of Christ, etc. It is very very important that you avoid any church which says it better than other churches. You want to hear the priest say that the church is comprised of all those who are Believers in Christ. After you have visited all the churches, start attending services at a few churches (four maximum at a time). Go as much as you possibly can. Your purpose is to meet the members of the congregations and make friends with them. It is very very important that you go up to people in the congregations, introduce yourself, and be super friendly with them. Once you have cultivated friendships with people at the churches, make a choice on which church you think is the most friendly and that your 2x2 spouse would feel most comfortable with the people. You must be very careful that you make this choice well, because you might only get one chance to impress your spouse with the congregation.
If you have at least 10 friends in your new church that openly are friendly with you, then you can invite you spouse to come one Sunday with you to church. Do not press it if your spouse doesn't immediately agree. You will get more chances, just wait for the next steps. You must attend the church you selected very frequently - as many times per week as possible. You must learn as much about the church as possible. If they have any doctrine classes, you must enroll. If they have any social clubs, you must join as many as possible. The idea is to get yourself as integrated into the church's social structure as much possible, as quick as possible. If you keep up this high level of social activity at the church, soon you are going to be friends with almost all the congregation. If there is a chance to get on a board of directors of the church, do so. Start inviting a few church members to your home for socializing, they are your friends after all; things like tea, dinner, etc. If there are any organized potluck dinners or sports things, or kids activities, you be there all bright eyed and bushy tailed. The point of all this is to show your 2x2 spouse how much enjoyment and fulfillment you are getting from your new church. These feelings are real after all, so why hide them from your 2x2 spouse. Invite your 2x2 spouse to participate in some of your churches social activities, to socialize with your new friends in your home, etc. Basically try to get your spouse to realize that your new friends are great and that spending time with them is pleasurable for your spouse. In front of your spouse, have discussions with your new friends about Grace, Trinity, Matt 10, etc. If your spouse hears this enough from nice people (and nice is the key thing here), your spouse will start to think that it just might be correct. Soon you can ask your spouse to join you for a few services at your church. Maybe not Sunday, since they have 2x2 meeting, but maybe a bible group on the weekdays or a weekday service or a late Sunday service. Slowly but surely, your spouse will start to realize that all the lies the 2x2s tell about other churches are just that - lies. And soon your spouse will come over to your side, and your marriage will start to heal. It's a long process, don't give up. And make sure enjoy your church as much as you can. You happiness will be real, and it will be infectious.
Good Luck!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 13:23:33 GMT -5
Forgot to mention, thousands of spouses have been extracted from cults using this method. It works, and it works well. Make sure you do it right, and not just half-heartedly.
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Post by Grant on Nov 5, 2015 13:48:31 GMT -5
You forgot to mention pray, simple T.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 13:53:54 GMT -5
In case anyone is curious what to do about your children if you are in a divided home, the answer is pretty simple. Take them with you to the new church. Sure your 2x2 spouse will insist on them attending Sunday meeting with 2x2s, but you just take the kids to the 5pm Sunday service or the 8am. Or the weekday services. And of course you take them to all the social events at the church. The key to winning over your kids is by making it fun for them. The social activities are what is going to draw them in. Soon your kids will be telling your spouse that they don't want to go to 2x2 stuff. You are going to do exactly the same tactic that 2x2s do in their own recruiting scams. For a child's point of view 2x2 loses every time to a normal church. You just have to expose your child to a normal church.
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Post by Grant on Nov 5, 2015 13:58:59 GMT -5
Putting the kids in the middle and one parent against the other is not good advice. It does not make for a happy marriage if that is what you are hoping to achieve in a divided home. Likely to turn them against church altogether.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 14:00:43 GMT -5
Putting the kids in the middle and one parent against the other is not good advice. It does not make for a happy marriage if that is what you are hoping to achieve in a divided home. Likely to turn them against church altogether. The 2x2 parent already put the kids in the middle of the fight by remaining in a cult. The division is already there. My tactics will heal that division.
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Post by howitis on Nov 5, 2015 14:21:41 GMT -5
@simpleton, you say you go to church....which fruits of the Spirit come into play when carrying out the activities of your OP??
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 14:28:37 GMT -5
@simpleton, you say you go to church....which fruits of the Spirit come into play when carrying out the activities of your OP?? thanks for the question. The answer is LOVE. Love is all encompassing. Love heals all. Only cults create divided homes. Normal Christians can have two spouses of different denominations without even a sliver of problem between them. I have a friend who is a pastor of a Unitarian church, she was educated at Harvard Divinity School. Her husband, educated at Williams College is a Roman Catholic. They have kids. Their home is absolutely lovely, no problems whatsoever. They have been married for 20 years. I have many other examples like this. Only cults create divisions in families, normal churches do not. The reason is that normal churches are not exclusive. Normal churches accept that all Believers are in communion in the Body of Christ.
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Post by howitis on Nov 5, 2015 14:35:10 GMT -5
Interesting reply @simpleton, though obviously not my experience, my husbands family with parents where one 'had' to convert to Catholicism is very divided, with 6 children with 3 children only speaking to their other 2 siblings and of the other 3 they're only speaking to the other 2 as well.....yes SPLIT, DIVIDED ....straight down the middle.......only in cults though......really?
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Post by howitis on Nov 5, 2015 14:36:21 GMT -5
LOVE of self is about all that shines through @simpleton!
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 5, 2015 14:48:58 GMT -5
What do you see as enlightening and remarkable about your Divided Home strategy?
Honestly, there wasnt a thing in your OP thread that most or all of us here didnt already know and have seen it take place in many marriages! It's so common that it's the generally expected behavior.
When one person in a marriage professes in a 2x2 mtg and the spouse does not--many usually do these things
When two professing people are in a marriage and one leaves meetings (provided that person decides to attend another church)--many are likely to do these things.
It works the same both ways.........In both situations, the hope is that the 1 Cor 7:16 will come to pass:
1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 15:35:18 GMT -5
I'm very glad to hear that my post was unnecessary then!! It's wonderful that everyone knows how to help their spouses. Then you won't be unhappy that I simply summarized it into a nice handy How-To Guide. Easy for others to Search for and to implement without any guesswork.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 15:36:48 GMT -5
Simpleton
You come across as manipulative and controlling.
if this is the approach you take to differences between partners in a marriage, then there must be a high chance of sourness pervading the marriage , if it survives at all.
Using the word 'tactics' as regards marriage sounds and feels awful.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 15:42:41 GMT -5
Simpleton You come across as manipulative and controlling. if this is the approach you take to differences between partners in a marriage, then there must be a high chance of sourness pervading the marriage , if it survives at all. Using the word 'tactics' as regards marriage sounds and feels awful. I love you too!!! Make the Peace of God be with you ALWAYS!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 15:56:27 GMT -5
I love you too!!! Make the Peace of God be with you ALWAYS!! Thank you. And may Christ rule in your heart and not your own will ALWAYS
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Post by rational on Nov 5, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5
When I say mainline church, I mean Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, United, Reform, etc. I do not mean JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Church of Christ, etc. It is very very important that you avoid any church which says it better than other churches The Catholic church says you can only gain salvation through the church. That would lead one to believe they are better than any other church. And all of this is somewhat moot since christianity is an exclusive religion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 17:02:54 GMT -5
When I say mainline church, I mean Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics, Congregationalists, Episcopalians, United, Reform, etc. I do not mean JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, Church of Christ, etc. It is very very important that you avoid any church which says it better than other churches The Catholic church says you can only gain salvation through the church. And all of this is somewhat moot since christianity is an exclusive religion. The Church is the Body of Christ - the communion of All Believers. It is not some particular denomination.
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Post by rational on Nov 5, 2015 22:35:40 GMT -5
The Catholic church says you can only gain salvation through the church. And all of this is somewhat moot since christianity is an exclusive religion. The Church is the Body of Christ - the communion of All Believers. It is not some particular denomination. When you refer to the Catholic Church you are referring to a particular denomination. And I was referring to the doctrine of that denomination that states that it alone offers salvation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2015 22:37:39 GMT -5
The Church is the Body of Christ - the communion of All Believers. It is not some particular denomination. When you refer to the Catholic Church you are referring to a particular denomination. And I was referring to the doctrine of that denomination that states that it alone offers salvation. But it doesn't. You are wrong. I know you are wrong because I am anglo-catholic, my wife is catholic, my relative is a priest in the Vatican. I know the doctrine very well. You are dead wrong.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 5, 2015 22:55:49 GMT -5
Putting the kids in the middle and one parent against the other is not good advice. It does not make for a happy marriage if that is what you are hoping to achieve in a divided home. Likely to turn them against church altogether. The 2x2 parent already put the kids in the middle of the fight by remaining in a cult. The division is already there. My tactics will heal that division. The division was, in fact, created by the person who left the cult -- the cult that he/she, the spouse, and the children had been raised in. They will always respect you more for permitting them the same privilege of staying or leaving. If one is sincere about his religion it is not a matter that can be negotiated. The marriage contract assumed the life-style expected at the time of the marriage.
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Post by rational on Nov 6, 2015 1:25:21 GMT -5
When you refer to the Catholic Church you are referring to a particular denomination. And I was referring to the doctrine of that denomination that states that it alone offers salvation. But it doesn't. You are wrong. I know you are wrong because I am anglo-catholic, my wife is catholic, my relative is a priest in the Vatican. I know the doctrine very well. You are dead wrong. I am sure you can read so I will just re-post what the Catholic church states regarding this topic: Catechism of the Catholic ChurchPART ONETHE PROFESSION OF FAITHSECTION TWOTHE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITHCHAPTER THREEI BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRITARTICLE 9
The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.
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In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
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Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
From the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH So this is what the Catholic Church claims. 'The Church' is defined as are the requirements for salvation. But you know, you can present facts to people and they simply ignore them. I am sure this is not the case for you. Perhaps you can present the doctrine you know so well that contradicts this catechism.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2015 3:20:22 GMT -5
catholic church.
even our overseer has stated in my hearing that there will be others saved in other churches
Carol Gray
Matt 25:1 We often think of the 10 virgins and think of our fellowship as the wise only. But who are the unwise? And is it true that they cannot be or are not saved?
The unwise are those who do things a little different, but who might well be saved, and probably are. They are in other churches.
Jim Atcheson
"The elect" - who are the elect? Is this restricted to us here in this tent? To those who attend conventions elsewhere, or to those who we meet with on Sunday? I think it is not restrictive like this. There are true Christians in every church and denomination, but not all of them. In the same way, not all of us here in this tent will see heaven.
Normal Borthwick
When are we saved? My mother used to speak about not knowing salvation until gaining that other shore. I'm glad today to tell you that we can know that we are saved Today. Even right now we can know, as God has given us this assurance, this guarantee. And whose guarantee will you take for real? A 5 year warranty on your car? Or Gods eternal warranty?
Harriet Stormont
Someone once asked me why we don't have temples for our Sunday morning meetings, and if we really considered it wrong to do so.
It caused me to think deeply about this. Is this a tradition, or a commandment? Is it a dictate of scripture or a whim?
Well, we know that there's a certain amount of evidence of people in NT days meeting in homes.
Tatsuo Asaka
When I left my family religion which was not Christian, I wondered about the salvation of people in non Christian groups. I had school friends who went to the Christian church, but they went to several different ones. Could they all be right?
I concluded that it is not really any different that people have different names, and likes. Does that make them not people because they do not have the same name? The basics are the same.
Nilton Bonfim
What are the essentials? What does God require of us? And what is incidental. We have a saying "nice to have". It means nice but not essential. There are some things we sometimes think of as essential, like the church in the home, like the ministry we have. But I see these as nice to haves. Without them there could still be a relationship with Christ. Salvation is dependent on these things. They are not wrong, they are right, but so are many other things.
Mary Barbour
When I was little I wondered about our neighbour. She was very kind, but not religious in any way. I was always naughty, but she was nice. Many times she showed me kindness. How could our Saviour, Jesus our Lord look with favour on me the sinner and not on her the good person.
Later I wondered about other Christians. I don't mean the fanatics, I mean just those honest people who have a loving relationship with the same God we have. Some said they could not be saved as they don't go to our meetings. Well I'm certain that’s not true....
Pyungun Ahn
The only thing that saves us is Gods grace. What we might do isn't really part of it. We will change, and God expects different intentions of us after He saves us, but it’s not that behavour that saves us. When God came to earth as a man, Jesus the Son of God, God the Son, he paid the only price that could be paid. There's no other payment required.
Estelita Atienza
Cor 12: 18 God hath set them members as it pleased him...
What has God set us members in? Members in our meeting? our family? No, members in Gods eternal family. There are members in this that we don't know though. Members that we might not want to be there. In our own thoughts we put walls round what God has done. We box Him in, and we should not do that. God as done as it pleased him, not as it pleased us. He knows who is in that family, and we do not.
Arne Foss
We sometimes get asked when our church started. In the east people are always asking about history. While we don't want to dwell on who did what in the beginning, don't want to blow up the names of some making them bigger than they were, and bigger that they would want to be, we still have to acknowldege those men in Ireland back in the last century who started it all, who held the first conventions, the first meetings. Without those beginnings we would not be standing here today.
There's scripture to back this up. But there is none that says its wrong not to meet in homes. So, can we really condemn other Christians for having a temple? Yes under certain specific conditions it could be wrong. If they worship the temple, and think that God Only dwells in that pile of stone, then that might be wrong. But if they use it merely as a convenient meeting place, then we can't.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2015 10:31:52 GMT -5
But it doesn't. You are wrong. I know you are wrong because I am anglo-catholic, my wife is catholic, my relative is a priest in the Vatican. I know the doctrine very well. You are dead wrong. So this is what the Catholic Church claims. 'The Church' is defined as are the requirements for salvation. But you know, you can present facts to people and they simply ignore them. I am sure this is not the case for you. Perhaps you can present the doctrine you know so well that contradicts this catechism. Here we go with you again, the guy armed with a little bit of logic training and not much historical training. The Church is The Body of Christ - the communion of Believers. You are confused because you don't understand the jargon, because you are not a Christian.
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Post by rational on Nov 6, 2015 12:49:28 GMT -5
So this is what the Catholic Church claims. 'The Church' is defined as are the requirements for salvation. But you know, you can present facts to people and they simply ignore them. I am sure this is not the case for you. Perhaps you can present the doctrine you know so well that contradicts this catechism. Here we go with you again, the guy armed with a little bit of logic training and not much historical training. Attempting to support your premises with ad hominem attacks does little to further your case. You mentioned the Catholic Church. I provided the definition of The Church as provided by that entity: The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.You can redefine it if you wish but for this discussion I will stick with the definition as supplied by the church in question, the Catholic Church. And you are right, I am not a christian. And not being a christian means that I can accept the definition as given without feeling the need to twist the definition to support claims I may have made in error.
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Post by ellie on Nov 7, 2015 7:21:05 GMT -5
Is your spouse a 2x2 and you are not? Perhaps you were a 2x2, and then you left but your spouse will not leave it. It's a big problem in your marriage that's for sure. I think it is worth a mention that the statement in bold does not apply to all marriages where one party attends fellowship meetings and the other does not. For some married couples this is not a problem. The party who no longer identifies as belonging to the fellowship may choose to respect their partner and let their partner be responsible for their own choices and actions. The partner attending fellowship meetings may choose to show the same respect.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2015 9:09:52 GMT -5
Is your spouse a 2x2 and you are not? Perhaps you were a 2x2, and then you left but your spouse will not leave it. It's a big problem in your marriage that's for sure. I think it is worth a mention that the statement in bold does not apply to all marriages where one party attends fellowship meetings and the other does not. For some married couples this is not a problem. The party who no longer identifies as belonging to the fellowship may choose to respect their partner and let their partner be responsible for their own choices and actions. The partner attending fellowship meetings may choose to show the same respect. Ellie, if 2x2ism was a normal Christian movement, you would be correct. But it is not. 2x2ism is a movement which is exclusive in terms of its doctrine. How can a marriage not be under great strain when the 2x2 spouse thinks the other spouse is not going to heaven. Furthermore, how can the non-2x2 spouse have any respect for the 2x2 spouse who believes 2x2ism has apostolic succession despite all evidence to the contrary, that 2x2 ministers are authorities on Scriptures when they lack even basic training, that 2x2s are unable to read and understand the Gospel message, that 2x2s completely misread the stories of the 12+70, that 2x2s are a cult of sycophantic worker worshipers. The fact that there are divided homes is a great testament to the love of the non-2x2 spouse for putting up with a spouse who is so confused they are not amenable to reason. Most people would just divorce the 2x2 spouse and rid themselves of the pain of having to deal with such an idiot.
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Post by rational on Nov 7, 2015 10:00:33 GMT -5
Ellie, if 2x2ism was a normal Christian movement, you would be correct. But it is not. 2x2ism is a movement which is exclusive in terms of its doctrine. How can a marriage not be under great strain when the 2x2 spouse thinks the other spouse is not going to heaven. The sample size can be enlarged. The 2x2s are just a small group but there are much larger christian groups that also adhere to an exclusive doctrine. In fact the christian religion itself is exclusive. Try as you might to make this a 2x2 problem it is a problem with any set of beliefs. You have little understanding of humanity. Christian and Jewish marriages work. Atheists and theists form long term bonds. People of differing beliefs form bonds and remain together because the individuals at least try to understand and respect the beliefs of the other person and in general do not call them idiots. For someone with 3 (three) advanced degrees (one of them from an Ivy League school) you seem to be missing some fairly large pieces of understanding.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 7, 2015 20:24:15 GMT -5
I think it is worth a mention that the statement in bold does not apply to all marriages where one party attends fellowship meetings and the other does not. For some married couples this is not a problem. The party who no longer identifies as belonging to the fellowship may choose to respect their partner and let their partner be responsible for their own choices and actions. The partner attending fellowship meetings may choose to show the same respect.Ellie, if 2x2ism was a normal Christian movement, you would be correct. But it is not. 2x2ism is a movement which is exclusive in terms of its doctrine. How can a marriage not be under great strain when the 2x2 spouse thinks the other spouse is not going to heaven. Furthermore, how can the non-2x2 spouse have any respect for the 2x2 spouse who believes 2x2ism has apostolic succession despite all evidence to the contrary, that 2x2 ministers are authorities on Scriptures when they lack even basic training, that 2x2s are unable to read and understand the Gospel message, that 2x2s completely misread the stories of the 12+70, that 2x2s are a cult of sycophantic worker worshipers.The fact that there are divided homes is a great testament to the love of the non-2x2 spouse for putting up with a spouse who is so confused they are not amenable to reason. Most people would just divorce the 2x2 spo use and rid themselves of the pain of having to deal with such an idiot. Thank you Ellie, it is true what you stated that, "The party who no longer identifies as belonging to the fellowship may choose to respect their partner and let their partner be responsible for their own choices and actions. The partner attending fellowship meetings may choose to show the same respect."
That was the way it was in my home, -we each respected each other's right to decide our own belief.
Whereas, it seems that Mr. Simpleton only sees it as a one way street, calling the 2x2 spouse "so confused they are not amenable to reason" and calling them an "idiot."
I certainly did not see my own 2x2 spouse as "confused" or an "idiot!" In fact he could have run rings around simpleton's drivel and not even have had to breath hard in order to do so.
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