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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 6, 2015 23:45:59 GMT -5
Come on guys, at least be honest and admit in the above post by @simpleton, he has stated some very good points ! Things that we all in the past have criticised the 2x2 's of doing ! Things that we all in the past have criticised the 2x2 's of doing !
Not sure if we all have criticized the group on all these things, although most have certainly come up for discussion here on the TMB. You are right scott I should have said some !
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 6, 2015 23:47:57 GMT -5
I was just nit-picking on your post......
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Post by ellie on Nov 6, 2015 23:55:09 GMT -5
My parents allowed me to go to other churches with my friends. It was a good experience for me to do so, and I am very glad for the parents I had. ScottRoss, Do you think your parents would have allowed you to enroll in a Catholic education program like RCIA or CCD? Basically a once a week, evening course for 1 year to explain Christianity from the Catholic perspective? Do you think there are many 2x2 parents today who would allow their kids to do this? Would you allow your kids to do this? I know many Protestant parents who allow their kids to go to Catholic education programs, because those programs are very well designed and very educational. In fact a priest at my church (not a Catholic Church) sends his two kids to a Catholic School. The point is, as many Protestants know, that Christianity is basically the same message in most of the denominations, so using the resources of another denomination if they are high quality, is quite alright. Obviously I am not ScottRoss but FWIW growing up I had more than one friend in the fellowship who attended a Roman Catholic high school and participated in compulsory Catholic studies. Others were enrolled in protestant Christian schools.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2015 9:00:22 GMT -5
ScottRoss, Do you think your parents would have allowed you to enroll in a Catholic education program like RCIA or CCD? Basically a once a week, evening course for 1 year to explain Christianity from the Catholic perspective? Do you think there are many 2x2 parents today who would allow their kids to do this? Would you allow your kids to do this? I know many Protestant parents who allow their kids to go to Catholic education programs, because those programs are very well designed and very educational. In fact a priest at my church (not a Catholic Church) sends his two kids to a Catholic School. The point is, as many Protestants know, that Christianity is basically the same message in most of the denominations, so using the resources of another denomination if they are high quality, is quite alright. Obviously I am not ScottRoss but FWIW growing up I had more than one friend in the fellowship who attended a Roman Catholic high school and participated in compulsory Catholic studies. Others were enrolled in protestant Christian schools. Wonderful news. In my region, 2x2 kids were required to not attend any religious instruction of any kind in the Public School system.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2015 21:28:17 GMT -5
When a person does not consider the harm that could result when the young and likely rebellious teens read the immature methods intended to create maximum disturbance in meetings on one of those threads, they reveal a concerning lack of insight and a lack of regard for the harm which will ensue if young readers were to take the advice seriously. To promote a world damaging religion such as roman catholicism whilst denigrating the 2x2 reveals either a person with a warped sense of the ridiculous or one whose thought processes are so skewed as to be in need of such anaylsis Joanna my dear. You have my love and understanding. May I suggest that if you don't want rebellious teens to be creating havoc, then you should let those teens stay home and avoid meetings. If 2x2s didn't lie to their kids so much about 2x2ism, then the kids wouldn't be so disillusioned about 2x2ism. If you want your kid to respect your advice, make sure it's good advice not just some thought that popped into your brain. Who's promoting Roman Catholicism? Certainly not me. As for world damaging, I think you have a vast hole of ignorance where your knowledge of the history of Western Civilization should be.
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Post by rational on Nov 8, 2015 8:26:41 GMT -5
Who's promoting Roman Catholicism? Certainly not me. S/he's got you there joanna! It was her/his wife that is a Catholic and someone s/he knows who is a Priest at the Vatican. S/he claims to be an Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian. Exactly how the beliefs of a Anglo-Catholic Episcopalian differ from a Catholic might be an interesting discussion. Ahhh, the mysteries of transubstantiation.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 8, 2015 9:49:05 GMT -5
ScottRoss, Do you think your parents would have allowed you to enroll in a Catholic education program like RCIA or CCD? Basically a once a week, evening course for 1 year to explain Christianity from the Catholic perspective? Do you think there are many 2x2 parents today who would allow their kids to do this? Would you allow your kids to do this? I know many Protestant parents who allow their kids to go to Catholic education programs, because those programs are very well designed and very educational. In fact a priest at my church (not a Catholic Church) sends his two kids to a Catholic School. The point is, as many Protestants know, that Christianity is basically the same message in most of the denominations, so using the resources of another denomination if they are high quality, is quite alright. Obviously I am not ScottRoss but FWIW growing up I had more than one friend in the fellowship who attended a Roman Catholic high school and participated in compulsory Catholic studies. Others were enrolled in protestant Christian schools. Ellie - would that be in the UK perhaps? I know it is not uncommon for 2x2 teenagers to attend Catholic schools in Ireland.
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Post by ellie on Nov 8, 2015 15:48:00 GMT -5
Obviously I am not ScottRoss but FWIW growing up I had more than one friend in the fellowship who attended a Roman Catholic high school and participated in compulsory Catholic studies. Others were enrolled in protestant Christian schools. Ellie - would that be in the UK perhaps? I know it is not uncommon for 2x2 teenagers to attend Catholic schools in Ireland. Australia in an area of limited private school options.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 18:34:28 GMT -5
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 11, 2015 20:03:09 GMT -5
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. WOW! : simpleton- Are you at the point in the discussion where you have nothing else to say but to repeat over & over a "Ave Maria"?
Geeze, -you seem to run out of steam very quickly!
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 11, 2015 20:29:03 GMT -5
The original post is obviously trolling attempt, but I do see merit in the question of how to survive growing up in a highly legalistic religion that you don't agree with.
That was the case for me. I never professed. And I must admit to attempting some of the tactics listed above a few times when I was growing up.
Based on my experience, I would emphatically disagree with the claim that: "Many of these things have been very successful with other kids". The approach from simpleton is a terrible idea.
Please recognize that the suicide s/he referenced was someone who tried to actively buck the system in dress, music, activities, etc.
In my own case, I was promptly thrown down and received a beating after interrupting a meeting. Discipline tactics evolve as children grow. Later on, we were dragged to every meeting within hours, across multiple states, sometimes 3 in one day. The more we protested or objected, the more meetings we got and the more the workers came around. This was coupled with isolation from external activities and other kids. It was mind-numbing. By my early teens, I was basically fully passive and disengaged.
Since then, I've considered what I would do differently. One influential reference point was learning how young Amish people leave a MUCH more restrictive society. They externally conform, secretly plan and prepare for a long time, and one night leave very decisively.
If I could talk to my younger self, I would say:
Profess and get baptized as soon as you can. It doesn't matter if you really share this belief system. Your personal honesty and integrity are not meaningful or valued within this group. Remember that in their eyes, they are trying to save you from being tortured for eternity by their all-loving God. Go through the motions and consider this as practice. In your career, you will have to fake enthusiasm for ridiculous corporate initiatives. During higher education, you will probably find it effective to parrot a professor or teacher's personal beliefs to pass their courses. If you work hard, it will eventually be possible to chose to associate and collaborate with people who admire you for sticking up for what you believe in, even when they don't agree. That is something worth waiting for.
In the meantime, cultivating an image will make your life a lot easier. Talk to your teachers or school counselors about how to get good at public speaking. There many resources available such as debate clubs, classes, etc. In meetings, always dress on the conservative side, learn how to shake hands confidently, help out others. Genealogy (who is related to who) is a huge part of the social interaction of the 2x2s. Leverage the online technology and genealogy sites to become fluent in this for your area. Learn to use gossip as both an offensive and defensive weapon to protect yourself against the bullies in the group. These steps will help you gain some measure of freedom.
Prioritize some goals. I would suggest:
1) Stay safe and healthy
Obviously you need to address any physical abuse with the authorities. But also consider that becoming isolated and shunned is not beneficial to your mental or physical health. There will be plenty of opportunity to be yourself away from the enforcers.
2) Get a good education and set yourself up for success
Make this a priority. Don't compromise your opportunities at higher education or financial independence for short sighted reasons. Learn to think critically, question everything.
Don't be restricted to the classroom or frightened of ideas. Investigate whatever you want to investigate. When you hear the shrill voices like simpleton railing against Atheism, don't be intimidated. Go read the books, do the research and make up your own mind. If you want to learn about Buddhism, go learn about Buddhism. Don't be afraid of learning, but approach everything with a healthy skepticism.
Whatever needs to come out of your mouth to survive, keep your mind free.
3) Enjoy the the experiences of growing up
The reality, is a LOT of the other kids in the group are just like you and will help you out. If you establish a reputation as a "good professing kid" you can have plenty of like-minded friends and participate in almost anything you like as long as you do it discretely. This is especially true today.
"We're going a canoe trip" can easily mean "We're going to a concert" or "We're going to the movies". "We're going skiing" might end up as "I'm going to spend the weekend having sex with my girlfriend". Yes, you can do that too. Use public services like Planned Parenthood (in the US) to get education, protection, and medical care. Exploit the regional differences in the 2x2 rules to have new experiences. Want to explore the bar scene? Maybe you'll get the chance to to study in London for a semester. Hiding and changing clothes, hair, and makeup has been written about extensively by the women.
Learning how to game the system is an important life lesson. Even when you lose, try to win back something important. For example, if you get caught violating the rules, can you manipulate your punishment into something you prefer? Perhaps losing your speaking part in meetings or being kept home from convention. Your allies and acting skills will be helpful in this.
4) Leave without a trail of destruction that hurts people you still care for
In my experience, if you don't profess or you leave while you are still at home, your parents will suffer the most. Despite elder status, I saw my parents severely bullied over my lack of participation, to the point where they ended up on antidepressants in order to function. There was horrible gossip and slander and some "Friends" would call them up and directly tell them that they were going to hell. The most over-the-top display I ever witnessed was a prominent convention owner who visited the meeting in my parents home and preached against them.
Ultimately, I had to live with knowing that I was the cause of all that. I could have further ratcheted up the hurt and caused more problems instead of keeping my head down. But it would have changed nothing. It is NOT your responsibility to try and change your family's religion.
On the other hand, if you fake professing and leave after becoming an independent adult, people will generally shrug their shoulders and chalk it up to "that book", "those internet sites", "unwillingness" or any number of other causes. But your family will most likely be left alone. Suck it up and take any personal criticism in stride. You're an adult now. You can handle it.
Let's say you have an objection to #4 and instead want leave the group in blaze of fury, doing as much damage as possible. Sure, there have been a few people who have picketed conventions, shouted at speakers, and so on. But who, exactly? They are virtually unknown. It's absurd to suggest you will have a notable impact by waving around a rosary in meeting or praying the Lord's Prayer or some other quasi-Catholic nonsense.
The most damaging ex-member campaigns have been fundamentally based on information gathering and research. Consider the "Secret Sect" and research into the origins of the group, documentation (including recordings) of the Alberta excommunications, piecing together the widespread CSA allegations and coverups, and the well-documented Vietnam schism.
This is the era of Edward Snowden, WikiLeaks, and cell phone videos. Meanwhile on this board, ex-members dredge up sermons from the 1950's to try and slam the group. Anti-2x2 sites would probably kill for the access to information that you take for granted. Document, then vent and write a book if you need to. But be wary and skeptical of the "ex" groups and websites. Are they attempting to be unbiased? Or do they attempt to indoctrinate you with another religious belief? Do they include viewpoints and participation from all groups? Or just a few select ones?
These are just my honest thoughts. I realize that not everyone will agree, and my analysis will probably continue to evolve as well.
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Post by joanna on Nov 11, 2015 21:06:56 GMT -5
^^^ great post openingact34 Scepticism is the primary ingredient needed to start the withdrawal process from any and all mind-controlling and numbing doctrines.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 21:17:56 GMT -5
In my experience, if you don't profess or you leave while you are still at home, your parents will suffer the most. Despite elder status, I saw my parents severely bullied over my lack of participation, to the point where they ended up on antidepressants in order to function. There was horrible gossip and slander and some "Friends" would call them up and directly tell them that they were going to hell. The most over-the-top display I ever witnessed was a prominent convention owner who visited the meeting in my parents home and preached against them. Ultimately, I had to live with knowing that I was the cause of all that. I could have further ratcheted up the hurt and caused more problems instead of keeping my head down. But it would have changed nothing. It is NOT your responsibility to try and change your family's religion It on this point that you and I disagree. As an adult looking back on my childhood living in a 2x2 household, I would say that not going along with 2x2ism and using disruption tactics were very effective. The greatest leverage a child has with their 2x2 parents is to put their parents in a situation where the parents have to choose between obeying ridiculous 2x2 worker commands or loving their children. This strategy of tension is very effective at dislodging parents out from under 2x2 brainwashing. It gets the parents to see that maybe the workers aren't the apostles of God after all. A very important step in the process for parents to break free of 2x2ism. If a child chooses the path of deceitful perfect professing kid, the child will have missed the opportunity to help their parents dislodge from 2x2ism. Which means that as an adult the child will have to watch their parents mindlessly continue along as 2x2s. In addition, being a 2x2 child puts you in very dangerous situations - many 2x2 kids are living these deceitful double lives which leads to highly messed up character traits as an adult. Not to mention that being a 2x2 kid, puts in you in potential contact with pedophiles. I know many people who were deceitful 2x2 kids, almost all of them are hard-core 2x2 adults. Why? Because 2x2ism is also a community and lifestyle. Those people become your friends, and you stay in 2x2ism because that is where your friends are. In otherwords, you shoot yourself in the foot by playing along to get along. No, I say, 'Get out as soon as you can. Get out early and stay out." It will develop an incredible sense of independence and self-worth in you which will be one of your greatest assets as an adult.
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Post by rational on Nov 11, 2015 21:47:30 GMT -5
Not to mention that being a 2x2 kid, puts in you in potential contact with pedophiles. 1) What religion or group would you suggest these people flee to that is free of pedophiles? 2) Are there a lot of pedophiles (ICD-10 F65.4) in the 2x2s? It seems that the convictions would indicate hebephilia in most cases.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2015 21:52:20 GMT -5
Not to mention that being a 2x2 kid, puts in you in potential contact with pedophiles. 1) What religion or group would you suggest these people flee to that is free of pedophiles? 2) Are there a lot of pedophiles (ICD-10 F65.4) in the 2x2s? It seems that the convictions would indicate hebephilia in most cases. It's interesting that you ask that, Irrational. I don't know of a pedophile-free zone, as it is hard to prove the absence of something. However, I would most certainly suggest that these people flee as far away as possible from yourself.
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Post by rational on Nov 11, 2015 22:04:03 GMT -5
1) What religion or group would you suggest these people flee to that is free of pedophiles? 2) Are there a lot of pedophiles (ICD-10 F65.4) in the 2x2s? It seems that the convictions would indicate hebephilia in most cases. It's interesting that you ask that, Irrational. I don't know of a pedophile-free zone, as it is hard to prove the absence of something. However, I would most certainly suggest that these people flee as far away as possible from yourself. I see. So you have no answer. Sort of like that Catholic Doctrine you knew so well yet still no word where it states that you do not need to be a member of the Catholic Church to gain salvation. And no response regarding your first cause question. Not surprised.
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 12, 2015 0:00:03 GMT -5
As an adult looking back on my childhood living in a 2x2 household, I would say that not going along with 2x2ism and using disruption tactics were very effective. Can you tell us more about your experience? Were you successful in getting your parents out?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2015 1:10:00 GMT -5
I was just nit-picking on your post...... Hey! -that is not your job to nit-pick! Leave that job to the professionals, -which we have at least one on this board. (Other than myself, that is.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 14:38:24 GMT -5
As an adult looking back on my childhood living in a 2x2 household, I would say that not going along with 2x2ism and using disruption tactics were very effective. Can you tell us more about your experience? Were you successful in getting your parents out? Yes, I was successful. The strategy of tension created a rift between my parents and the workers. The workers tried to force my parents to 'get tough' with me. My parents were torn because I was a A++ kid aside from my resistance to 2x2ism. So they didn't really have any reason to get tough with me. I was also a very smart kid who they were very proud of. They knew that if they got tough with me, the situation would escalate to such an extent that they themselves would be in danger. Their refusal to 'get tough' resulted in them being demoted in status by the F&W, and demoted in rank by the workers. It was extremely hard on my parents to experience this level of cruelty from the F&W. That is when they started to see many other of the holes in 2x2ism. It wasn't long before they were demoted in status even further for questioning a few things. And shortly after that, excommunicated. My parents thank me for what I did. Even though they didn't understand it at the time. I certainly didn't plan it out, I was just a stubborn kid who would not go along with B.S. Now that I am an adult, I realize how it all played out, and I want to share and make improvements on how other kids can use the strategy to help their own parents. I remember listening to 2x2s talking about 'being a child of God', "we must become like a child to understand God's plan', etc. I thought, "I'm a child, why don't you ask me? I'll tell you straight away that you are in cult. It's pretty easy for a child to see that. It takes an adult to make himself believe black is white".
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2015 17:24:05 GMT -5
Can you tell us more about your experience? Were you successful in getting your parents out? Yes, I was successful. The strategy of tension created a rift between my parents and the workers. The workers tried to force my parents to 'get tough' with me. My parents were torn becauseIt doesn't really show any compassion for people with genuine OCD for Bert to speak of OCD in the manner that he does. It isn't some thing to bandy about as if it were a plaything. I was a A++ kid aside from my resistance to 2x2ism. So they didn't really have any reason to get tough with me. I was also a very smart kid who they were very proud of. They knew that if they got tough with me, the situation would escalate to such an extent that they themselves would be in danger. Their refusal to 'get tough' resulted in them being demoted in status by the F&W, and demoted in rank by the workers. It was extremely hard on my parents to experience this level of cruelty from the F&W. That is when they started to see many other of the holes in 2x2ism. It wasn't long before they were demoted in status even further for questioning a few things. And shortly after that, excommunicated. My parents thank me for what I did. Even though they didn't understand it at the time. I certainly didn't plan it out, I was just a stubborn kid who would not go along with B.S. Now that I am an adult, I realize how it all played out, and I want to share and make improvements on how other kids can use the strategy to help their own parents. I remember listening to 2x2s talking about 'being a child of God', "we must become like a child to understand God's plan', etc. I thought, "I'm a child, why don't you ask me? I'll tell you straight away that you are in cult. It's pretty easy for a child to see that. It takes an adult to make himself believe black is white". Oh my! So you were a "A++ kid ?" "a very smart kid ?" Any time you can't reach that far to pat yourself on the back, let me know & I will pat your back for you.
I didn't know that a person could get better than a A status. You must truly be a genius.
I do feel quite humble beside your accomplishments. I could only reach A status. Dumb me!
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 12, 2015 19:40:35 GMT -5
Can you tell us more about your experience? Were you successful in getting your parents out? Yes, I was successful. The strategy of tension created a rift between my parents and the workers. The workers tried to force my parents to 'get tough' with me. My parents were torn because I was a A++ kid aside from my resistance to 2x2ism. So they didn't really have any reason to get tough with me. I was also a very smart kid who they were very proud of. They knew that if they got tough with me, the situation would escalate to such an extent that they themselves would be in danger. Their refusal to 'get tough' resulted in them being demoted in status by the F&W, and demoted in rank by the workers. It was extremely hard on my parents to experience this level of cruelty from the F&W. That is when they started to see many other of the holes in 2x2ism. It wasn't long before they were demoted in status even further for questioning a few things. And shortly after that, excommunicated. My parents thank me for what I did. Even though they didn't understand it at the time. I certainly didn't plan it out, I was just a stubborn kid who would not go along with B.S. Now that I am an adult, I realize how it all played out, and I want to share and make improvements on how other kids can use the strategy to help their own parents. I remember listening to 2x2s talking about 'being a child of God', "we must become like a child to understand God's plan', etc. I thought, "I'm a child, why don't you ask me? I'll tell you straight away that you are in cult. It's pretty easy for a child to see that. It takes an adult to make himself believe black is white". Now, I do believe that parents teach their children, and in turn, children teach their parents. (This is basically how it works, unless one side or the other is extremely intransigent.) IMO, it's kind of a perfect system - particularly if you see the evolution of human kind as being a worthy goal. After a quick read of your post, I do wonder how much you were really the catalyst, or how much you were a product of pre-existing doubts within your parents. (Don't feel like you have to answer, this is really a rhetorical question. I'm not sure there is really a definitive answer. It's kind of a chicken and an egg sort of question.) I can remember once a sister worker (she had the scripture to back this up, but as usual, I am too lazy to look it up), who gave a sermon once about the "secret faults of the parents becoming the obvious sins of the children". I have pondered this thought in many contexts (far beyond 2X2ism) in the years since. An example from my life. I never felt called, in any shape or form, to be a worker. Never. Not even for a millisecond. Looking back, I do realize that this is something my parents never wished for me, though they were true believers, and heavily invested in the system. Both of them had personalities that living out of suitcases in other people's homes would have been a living hell for them. I am grateful that this was something that they never wished for me either.
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Post by fixit on Nov 12, 2015 19:58:53 GMT -5
As an adult looking back on my childhood living in a 2x2 household, I would say that not going along with 2x2ism and using disruption tactics were very effective. Will you explain all this to your kids, so they can get you out of your current religion?
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Post by ellie on Nov 12, 2015 21:07:11 GMT -5
Yes, I was successful. The strategy of tension created a rift between my parents and the workers. The workers tried to force my parents to 'get tough' with me. My parents were torn because I was a A++ kid aside from my resistance to 2x2ism. So they didn't really have any reason to get tough with me. I was also a very smart kid who they were very proud of. They knew that if they got tough with me, the situation would escalate to such an extent that they themselves would be in danger. While the techniques in the OP seem unwise to me. Your perspective on these events is quite interesting. If you dont mind sharing. Imagine the situation did escalate what do you think would be the source and form of this danger your parents would have been in?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 21:23:28 GMT -5
After a quick read of your post, I do wonder how much you were really the catalyst, or how much you were a product of pre-existing doubts within your parents. It's a hard question to answer. But it doesn't really matter much. What matters is that kids in 2x2 homes pressure their parents to defend their beliefs. If 2x2ism is so great, then are the parents willing to lose a child for 2x2ism?
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 15, 2015 21:49:02 GMT -5
After a quick read of your post, I do wonder how much you were really the catalyst, or how much you were a product of pre-existing doubts within your parents. It's a hard question to answer. But it doesn't really matter much. What matters is that kids in 2x2 homes pressure their parents to defend their beliefs. If 2x2ism is so great, then are the parents willing to lose a child for 2x2ism? I agree that it doesn't matter much. I think there are fewer and fewer people willing to lose a child for 2X2ism. Or for Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism. In the years I lived in Regina, I knew Jack and Katie-Ann Huckerby. 2X2s. Phenomenal people. Some of the greatest teachers in my life to this point. One of their grandchildren had a friend who got involved with someone of a different religion/ background. The parents "sat shiva" for their child. She was dead to them, because of the person she loved. Katie-Ann said "How could you ever do that to someone in your family?" (These were not empty words. They lived this, but that is quite another story.) I was way too young to understand the import of what she was saying at that time. I think I do understand it now. As I said, Katie-Ann was one of my greatest teachers. For this, and so much more.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 21:55:03 GMT -5
In the years I lived in Regina, I knew Jack and Katie-Ann Huckerby. 2X2s. Phenomenal people. Some of the greatest teachers in my life to this point. One of their grandchildren had a friend who got involved with someone of a different religion/ background. The parents "sat shiva" for their child. She was dead to them, because of the person she loved. Katie-Ann said "How could you ever do that to someone in your family?" (These were not empty words. They lived this, but that is quite another story.) I take it a lot further - How could you cut off a friend, a neighbor, a fellow citizen, and fellow member of the same civilization, for simply having a slightly different interpretation of your common shared religion? That's dogmatism + ignorance of the highest order. People who cut off for those reasons are people you are better off not having in your life - lunatics.
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Post by 4dtruth on Nov 15, 2015 22:41:08 GMT -5
As usual, the apostate exes discuss everything except the Bible.
Anyone who is unwilling to turn their back on their child cannot themselves be a true child of God. But we've seen that those who are faithful in doing so are rewarded with a hundredfold.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 22:44:54 GMT -5
As usual, the apostate exes discuss everything except the Bible. Anyone who is unwilling to turn their back on their child cannot themselves be a true child of God. But we've seen that those who are faithful in doing so are rewarded with a hundredfold. Many thanks for posting this. I love to see people who care more about their sect than their own children. It's hard to find such fanaticism these days, except with Muslims of course.
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