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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 1:43:51 GMT -5
I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority. By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: So you are the only one that understands Virgo ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 1:44:16 GMT -5
What, do I have to trawl through the entire New Testament again, just to make a point? New Testament in which Bible, Bert ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 1:48:41 GMT -5
Without looking it up - where does it say that verse in the NT that if you cannot obey natural rulers you cannot obey God because God expects natural obedience?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 1:49:42 GMT -5
I take it you guys don't REALLY read your bible, do you? Authority, obeying, master and servant, older and younger, parents and children, government, king, prince etc etc etc must account for a substantial part of the scripture. We are told that if we can't obey natural authority we will never obey heavenly authority. By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: Virgo, may I suggest reading Fred's last comment on the Doug Parker thread ? Here it is for you : . Post by fred on 4 minutes ago Cherie, isn't it you who have written you were 'starving'?(if not whoever it was) you said you'd never bible studied verse by verse, word by word? Well pardon me for asking did you not have a bible? Or did you have an eye problem that prevented it? Seems a little like taking a child to a party where the tables are laden, and on your way home the child complains that they're hungry! The meat was there why did you not partake? "Many exes will tell the same story as Cherie, and also not a few folks still active participants in the fellowship. Mine is a similar story and while I still enjoy fellowship, since ceasing to depend on the workers for spiritual growth, I realise that I had been starving. I have perhaps been through the Bible cover to cover many times as well as many focussed studies, but I had not been receiving meat. My 'extra-curricular' studies now include listening to online bible teachers and online references. I feasted at the workers table for 40 years before understanding that I was only getting milk but needed meat to mature."
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 1:50:48 GMT -5
Without looking it up - where does it say that verse in the NT that if you cannot obey natural rulers you cannot obey God because God expects natural obedience? Would that be like the workers trying to hide CSA from the Authorities, Bert ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 1:58:02 GMT -5
I think that is just avoiding the issue - which is our own personal duties to God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 22, 2015 2:05:45 GMT -5
I think that is just avoiding the issue - which is our own personal duties to God. Sorry Bert, what do you mean by "that is just avoiding the issue" ? I'm a bit vague today ! I thought you were talking about obeying the Law of the Land ? Who do you se as "natural rulers" ?
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Post by howitis on Jul 22, 2015 4:42:37 GMT -5
The problem I see is that sometimes workers suggest or even order people should or should not do certain things and do not back it up with scripture apart from the 'obey those that have rule over you bit'. Like those marrying an outsider are often told to not take part in the meeting, this varies from country to country, state to state and sometimes worker to worker, sometimes it depends on whether the professing person had been baptised or not, such 'rules,' so many inconsistencies and really no scripture to back it up, sometimes the bit about being 'unequally yoked' comes into play, but seriously how can a worker judge that, the 'non professing' partner may be mor devout than the other! I just think yep sure if the scripture backs up that you're in the wrong fine, if not leave it alone these things often work themselves out!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 6:56:46 GMT -5
Quote - "Who do you se as "natural rulers" ?"
Natural rulers are those rule in the natural world, anyone from parents to police and magistrates to law makers.
Paul Romans 13:1-7 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”
Peter Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
And finally there are those who have power within the church.
Author of Hebrews Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 8:18:42 GMT -5
Bert, If God is the judge of all men and it is his decision on who is in heaven. How is it man's decision on who can worship together here on earth. Do you not have faith that God sees the heart of all men and he will in his time and in his way help others to understand the right way to serve him.
My father used to pray often that he was so thankful for God's patience with him. Bert if you have things your way, it appears you have no patience with anyone. How is that showing kindness and compassion on others like God has shown kindness and compassion on you?
If God had wanted us to still follow rules I don't think his son would have needed to die. There were rules already in place which lead to loveless service. God wants us to love him not blindly follow rules of men. That happens in the heart not before a group of men/women that who in their biases way makes live and death choices for the SOULS of other men.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 8:35:55 GMT -5
Marie The commandments are the ethical laws, the ordinances and judgements are symbolic laws. Ethics were now laws of the heart and Jesus raised the standard. “You have heard that the law of Moses says, ‘Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.’ But I say, if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment!"
The ethical laws are more severe!!!
I counted the sayings of Jesus, plus the Epistles to arrive at the following figures. 23% of Matthew's Gospel is concerned with works. 20% of Mark's Gospel is concerned with works. 26% of Luke's Gospel is concerned with works. 8% of John's Gospel is concerned with works. 65% of Romans is concerned with works. 45% of Ephesians is concerned with works. 72% of Titus is concerned with works.
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Post by snow on Jul 22, 2015 16:24:59 GMT -5
Isn't that the whole idea behind religion, control of the masses through teaching them they are sinners, telling them they can go to hell then offering to teach them what they must do so that won't happen? It is one view of religion and I can understand the view. However, in recent years since I've understood the grace of my Creatior I've looked at it quite differently. I don't feel controlled at all. I've been adopted into a new family and life which is eternal. Some of my priorities have changed as a result and others are in the process of changing but God is good. When I saw those amazing photos of Pluto this last week it made me reflect on the grandeur and order of our Creator. Glad it works for you and it does work for some people. Obviously.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 22, 2015 17:08:26 GMT -5
The problem I see is that sometimes workers suggest or even order people should or should not do certain things and do not back it up with scripture apart from the 'obey those that have rule over you bit'. Like those marrying an outsider are often told to not take part in the meeting, this varies from country to country, state to state and sometimes worker to worker, sometimes it depends on whether the professing person had been baptised or not, such 'rules,' so many inconsistencies and really no scripture to back it up, sometimes the bit about being 'unequally yoked' comes into play, but seriously how can a worker judge that, the 'non professing' partner may be mor devout than the other! I just think yep sure if the scripture backs up that you're in the wrong fine, if not leave it alone these things often work themselves out! Absolutely agree. The problem comes (for me at least) every visit with the workers I was asked was I repentant for marrying my (unprofessing) Husband. I couldn't answer that how they wanted me to because I had God's blessing & peace in my heart that I married the right person for me. The workers clearly didnt believe I could have a relationship with God that would allow me to do that. the whole time I knew they didn't believe me. Eventually the headache I got from banging my head against the brick wall got too much. I wasn't going to say I was sorry for marrying my husband, they weren't going to let me participate in meetings until I did.... So now I don't go to meetings.
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Post by howitis on Jul 22, 2015 17:35:55 GMT -5
I asked for the relevant scripture to back up me not taking part.....it wasn't very helpful, but through prayer God revealed to me I was actually offending some in the church because I was still taking part.Eventually God led our lives to a different place and both my husband and I made our 'choices' together, we then moved again quite a few times and a while later were baptised together. The thing is we always kept God in our lives and still do, my husband has read all that stuff about Parker, Irvine and more and even being brought up in another religion, and being harassed by workers (when we just going out, we were not even allowed to attend the same gospel meeting!), is so, so sure in his conviction. Funny thing had contact recently with one if the ones that were 'offended', went especially up to say hello, introduce myself etc (they are quite aged now), and you know what? It was all oh yes I remember you blah, blah, blah......then later on they asked someone else about me, my family etc and commented 'oh she's done quite well for herself, hasn't she??'..........any thanks to her?...yes and no, just makes me want to do better.....some people never change, they thrive on gossip!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 7:30:34 GMT -5
Bert, Your response yesterday had me go back and read 1 Corin. 13. It says there that we can have works, knowledge and all faith but if we have not love for out fellow men, all is for nothing.
Where is your love for your fellow man?
Where is review's love for his fellow man?
I hope the workers and friends who read this board think about the two most prominent worker and friend who represent their church, and how they show little compassion for their fellow men.
You claim that the ex's are judgmental but do you understand how judgmental you are to the ex"s and any other person in the world you does not agree with you.
Do you and review have all knowledge? Do you, not have any other lessons to learn here on earth? Why not be kind to others and show the love of God to your fellow man?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 7:58:09 GMT -5
Quote - " if we have not love for out fellow men, all is for nothing. Where is your love for your fellow man?"
We had this replacement teacher. She was young, sweet and gentle. Nothing was too difficult or demanding for her. So we TESTED her by pushing the boundaries. Surely anyone so sweet wouldn't get angry if we misbehaved! W.R.O.N.G.
Some people, "willingly ignorant" of God, claim that the bible presents TWO or more gods. Dawkins called this the murderous god of the OT and the "milk sop persona" god of the NT.
So when you get parents, teachers or religious leaders being stern and judgmental - don't take that as an insult. Was it in Proverbs, "faithful are the wounds of a friend" Who said "I would rather be stabbed in the front by a friend than in the back by an enemy."?
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Post by snow on Jul 23, 2015 10:34:15 GMT -5
Quote - " if we have not love for out fellow men, all is for nothing. Where is your love for your fellow man?" We had this replacement teacher. She was young, sweet and gentle. Nothing was too difficult or demanding for her. So we TESTED her by pushing the boundaries. Surely anyone so sweet wouldn't get angry if we misbehaved! W.R.O.N.G.
Some people, "willingly ignorant" of God, claim that the bible presents TWO or more gods. Dawkins called this the murderous god of the OT and the "milk sop persona" god of the NT.
So when you get parents, teachers or religious leaders being stern and judgmental - don't take that as an insult. Was it in Proverbs, "faithful are the wounds of a friend" Who said "I would rather be stabbed in the front by a friend than in the back by an enemy."?
In some ways I agree with your take on the bible and the 2 gods presented in it. The Jewish God of the OT is not the God of the NT. Most Christians don't even look at that or try to justify all the horrendous things the OT God does because they are still trying to fit 2 different gods into the same mould. But there has to be a lot of cognitive dissonance happening in order to do that. Yahweh was the God of War, not a God of Love. It's like Jekyll and Hyde. If it's the same God, this god is a multiple personality imo.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 10:48:49 GMT -5
Quote - "Who do you se as "natural rulers" ?" Natural rulers are those rule in the natural world, anyone from parents to police and magistrates to law makers.
Paul Romans 13:1-7 “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”
Peter Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
And finally there are those who have power within the church.
Author of Hebrews Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you"
I think paul and peter were a little off as we know now that gov'ts do in fact go after "good" people and do horrible things to them...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 12:54:27 GMT -5
Remembering a rather wise, instructive quote from many years ago, not defending it nor attacking it, just remembering it:
"Unimportant* people talk about people; Everyday* people talk about things; Valued* people talk about concepts and ideas.
Easy to tell the difference."
* Put your own descriptive word here...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 13:36:12 GMT -5
Bert, where do you get your numbers? Kind of like Dale Bors "math of the Kingdom" which is either 100% or nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2015 23:57:58 GMT -5
Bert, where do you get your numbers? Kind of like Dale Bors "math of the Kingdom" which is either 100% or nothing. IF you are referring to the works posting then the sums come from counting each verse if it has something relating to requirements. In the case of the Gospel I used a Red Letter Bible and counted every red verse which relates to requirements.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 24, 2015 9:11:54 GMT -5
Remembering a rather wise, instructive quote from many years ago, not defending it nor attacking it, just remembering it:
"Unimportant* people talk about people; Everyday* people talk about things; Valued* people talk about concepts and ideas.
Easy to tell the difference."
* Put your own descriptive word here...
Yes, very very important people read YOUR comments here, Jesse! Sir, I know you are an important person. Not lame at all. I know your record where you work, it is to be admired. Wonderful that you have so much paid time to devote here. Unfortunately for me, I do not have such luxury.
Nonetheless, I am not interested in Doug Parker's character nor anyones comments upon it. I know from first hand experience, which, btw, few others posting here have, the truth in that which he had the courage to post over his true identity. It is that only which I am addressing, wishing you and others, even in the past, could restrict yourself accordingly.
Best of wishes in your occupational position, which, if you did not want others to discover you should never have posted that picture to this forum.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 25, 2015 4:18:30 GMT -5
You are free to do whatever you want, but not within an organization. Any organization, really. People come together with common needs, goals and beliefs - and define these with boundaries.
Within our own church this issue would be a personal one between the person and their elder, Worker or even general community. I wouldn't be able to comment on that.I thought the official standpoint of the F&W is that they are NOT an organisation? Are you saying they ARE? Oh, wait, I think I had read somewhere about being them being registered and incorporated. Which would mean they are an organisation. Plus, Bert says they are. So I guess they must be an official organisation which makes rules for its members. Which, as Bert has reminded us, is dependent on who your elder or worker is, and where you happen to live. Do I have that correctly, Bert?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 5:11:19 GMT -5
No, not an "organization" in that sense of the term (documented, signed up, oath of office, registered, taxed, legalized, counted, uniformed, badged etc etc.)
But again (sigh) if the Law of the Land requires something of you, ie corporate name, then please provide one. Anything.
It's not the same thing. We have no internal recognition of ourselves as being an institution in the way institutions are generally known. And yes, SOME "rules" are "independent" of where you live - depending on definitions of "rules" and "independent." If something, ie remarriage or drinking, is not spelled out in scripture then it becomes a personal issue for you, and for those in authority to determine. After all - there's no organizational rule drawn up, remember.
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Post by Mary on Jul 25, 2015 5:15:38 GMT -5
Sounds like you are an organization with it's members, Bert.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 25, 2015 5:32:07 GMT -5
No, not an "organization" in that sense of the term (documented, signed up, oath of office, registered, taxed, legalized, counted, uniformed, badged etc etc.)
But again (sigh) if the Law of the Land requires something of you, ie corporate name, then please provide one. Anything.
It's not the same thing. We have no internal recognition of ourselves as being an institution in the way institutions are generally known. And yes, SOME "rules" are "independent" of where you live - depending on definitions of "rules" and "independent." If something, ie remarriage or drinking, is not spelled out in scripture then it becomes a personal issue for you, and for those in authority to determine. After all - there's no organizational rule drawn up, remember. Boy, this is confusing. There sure are a lot of different definitions of the same words. If you're not an organisation in that sense, then obviously there's no formal membership, and how can anyone therefore authorise whether you are professing or not, taking part or not, being baptised or not? Surely in such a low-key, non-organisation with no written rules, these things would be up to the individuals who choose to affiliate with this non-institutional body of people? Such a pity there's no organisational rule drawn up. It would make such GREAT READING!!!
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Post by bubbles on Jul 25, 2015 5:36:37 GMT -5
The problem I see is that sometimes workers suggest or even order people should or should not do certain things and do not back it up with scripture apart from the 'obey those that have rule over you bit'. Like those marrying an outsider are often told to not take part in the meeting, this varies from country to country, state to state and sometimes worker to worker, sometimes it depends on whether the professing person had been baptised or not, such 'rules,' so many inconsistencies and really no scripture to back it up, sometimes the bit about being 'unequally yoked' comes into play, but seriously how can a worker judge that, the 'non professing' partner may be mor devout than the other! I just think yep sure if the scripture backs up that you're in the wrong fine, if not leave it alone these things often work themselves out! When I read posts like this I think of the power of encouragement and how it works when you give people a second chance. Criticism has the power to kill and destroy. Ive seen christians when an elder stands with them supports them in prayer helping instead of hindering them. Blossom into committed loving people. Gossip is quenched. Able to move forward instead of bei g held back. Love and acceptance are far more powerful than the judgement.
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Post by fixit on Jul 25, 2015 5:55:31 GMT -5
No, not an "organization" in that sense of the term (documented, signed up, oath of office, registered, taxed, legalized, counted, uniformed, badged etc etc.)
But again (sigh) if the Law of the Land requires something of you, ie corporate name, then please provide one. Anything.
It's not the same thing. We have no internal recognition of ourselves as being an institution in the way institutions are generally known. And yes, SOME "rules" are "independent" of where you live - depending on definitions of "rules" and "independent." If something, ie remarriage or drinking, is not spelled out in scripture then it becomes a personal issue for you, and for those in authority to determine. After all - there's no organizational rule drawn up, remember. Here's a few things that make it an organisation Bert: 1. Overseers write to governments on behalf of the church. 2. Workers lists, and overseers each with a "staff". 3. Worldwide convention/special meetings system with workers on convention/special meetings tours. 4. Hymn book compiled by overseers and copyrighted. 5. Church role with name, phone number, address and meeting arrangements for each member. 6. Bible study lists distributed to each member.
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