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Post by bubbles on Jun 28, 2015 21:26:30 GMT -5
Oi, redback whats a vovo?
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Post by snow on Jun 28, 2015 21:27:08 GMT -5
I professed when I was 8 years old. I was still going strong at 12 then it ended. So I guess I'm a good example of what Walker is saying, or a bad example depending on how you look at it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 28, 2015 22:27:01 GMT -5
Oi, redback whats a vovo? Bubbles, Iced Vovo is a biscuit. ( Pink Icing & Red Jam stripe on top) horrible biscuits IMO ! But some people love them !
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2015 23:24:34 GMT -5
Oi, redback whats a vovo? Bubbles, Iced Vovo is a biscuit. ( Pink Icing & Red Jam stripe on top) horrible biscuits IMO ! But some people love them ! Roselyn, disappointed that vovos are not for you. Hope Bert likes them. Bubbles just google iced vovo, you even get a picture of them. Makes me drool. Of course the ice is not what Bert's thread "Bert's post on ice"is about. That is bad ice, vovos have good ice. Thats the one I want to share with Bert.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 3:45:46 GMT -5
Redback quote - "Thought things were the same, yesterday, today and forever." You seriously misunderstand what that sentence means Redback.
There's no real position on the consumption of alcohol in the bible. Some churches claim that "wine" in the bible meant grape juice, but that's stupid. We do have a position on drunkenness and the culture of alcohol consumption - but that's different.
Frankly I can't stand beer. Too bitter for me. I might have one or two drinks a year if it's really hot. I do drink wine but am not an aficionado. Last week a friend gave me a taste from two wine bottles. I couldn't really tell the difference, and she said, "Right, that does it then - I am not giving you the expensive stuff!!"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 4:13:49 GMT -5
Bert so glad you have such an open mind. I am getting to like you even more. It has come as a complete surprise,pleasant surprise, always thought you were very straight. Do think you and I could become good friends after all. Is your attitude shared by other 2x2's in your area. Always knew you people at M were a bit more outgoing compared with us super conservatives down south.
Bit concerned about that she friend that gave you the wine. What is going on there???. Possibly a bit jealous. Enjoy the wine, but be careful, could lead to other things. Also good to see you are not a snob when it comes to wines. However I will stick to the ginger beer, don't touch beer or wine. You can share it with your she friend, whilst I drink ginger beer.
Love you Cindy, strongly agree with your post. I was made to profess when I was 10, because of a huge dig in the ribs by my Mother's elbow. The Worker testing the meeting was over zealous kept testing trying to get the chap that they held the mission for. I was made to stand when he was almost in tears and said "Won't anyone stand with us tonight". My Mother was afraid he would not let us go home until somebody stood. Thank goodness it was declared null and void, as I did not have a clue. Some would say that nothing has changed.
Safe home Cindy, you are doing a great work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 4:23:56 GMT -5
Redback, different people have different perspectives on alcohol. It's like many things in the bible (especially divorce) that if something isn't clear in scripture then it's a good sign you must make the decision for yourself. One good argument is Paul's. He said to the effect that if he, someone "strong" could engage in something without effect, but someone "weak" could do the same thing, and be damaged - then it could be HIS fault. Example - Paul might drink, and someone who has a problem with drink could say "But Paul drinks, why can't I?"
In my church some drink alcohol, some don't. Simple as that. But we are all wary of how young people could see that.
As an aside. On a really hot day, when I am quite dehydrated, a cold beer is simply the best drink I have ever had. But before I get to the bottom of that glass or can the bitterness kicks in, and I can't drink anymore. I like it that way, actually - it means I won't have a problem with beer in my life!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 29, 2015 4:28:42 GMT -5
Well Bert, for myself having a "professing childhood" alcohol was not accepted at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 4:36:56 GMT -5
Bert you are so articulate, you leave me right behind. Just love and admire you more every day. I will not pick on you any more, promise. Pity anybody who does, you are my mate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 8:26:05 GMT -5
The night I professed, I had NO IDEA I would stand up. It wasn't until the second verse of the hymn and a friend of mine stood up that I stood up. I hadn't "settled it in my heart" as they sometimes say. I remember my heart pounding in my chest as if I was cornered by a lion! Not one word was spoken on the way back home from convention by any of my family. This was 3 and a half decades ago but the memories burn in my mind and always will. I hated to speak in meeting but felt I HAD TO or I was a lost soul.Convention was in August and I remember camping in September at a family farm and dreading the meeting the next day. One Wed. evening in middle school industrial arts class, it ocurred to me that I hadn't read the bible study. I had to pass around the bread and wine for a whole year before I could partake. Little did I know that some young people had to wait several years before being deemed worthy of partaking of the bread and wine. I will never forget this part of my life as long as I live. A 11 or 12 year old shouldn't feel pressured to make some life changing choice. Those who profess as adults have NO CLUE about what it is like to be an adolescent in "truth". The taking part thing in a meeting full of old folks isn't easy.And some make it hard by telling you that you need to speak louder or stuff like that.
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2015 18:03:14 GMT -5
Cindy, can sure relate to how you felt when you professed at 8 years old. That's how old I was too. Taking part in meeting was always a fearful thing. I did it, but sure did agonize over it. However, it was good training for my career later in life when I had to speak to large crowds. It didn't seem to be as difficult for me and I'm sure it was my early experience of having to stand up in meeting and talk and at convention. Now that was THE hardest thing ever when you are 8 years old.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 18:23:36 GMT -5
Bert you are so articulate, you leave me right behind. Just love and admire you more every day. I will not pick on you any more, promise. Pity anybody who does, you are my mate. You can pick on me anytime you like Redback. We both learn from it.
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Post by Gene on Jun 29, 2015 18:30:36 GMT -5
Redback quote - "Thought things were the same, yesterday, today and forever." You seriously misunderstand what that sentence means Redback.
There's no real position on the consumption of alcohol in the bible. Some churches claim that "wine" in the bible meant grape juice, but that's stupid. We do have a position on drunkenness and the culture of alcohol consumption - but that's different.
Frankly I can't stand beer. Too bitter for me. I might have one or two drinks a year if it's really hot. I do drink wine but am not an aficionado. Last week a friend gave me a taste from two wine bottles. I couldn't really tell the difference, and she said, "Right, that does it then - I am not giving you the expensive stuff!!"Bert, you need to just hold your breath and get past that bitter taste and move right on in to a second beer. By the time you've downed 3 or 4, the bitterness fades away and from then on it's clear sailing!
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Post by snow on Jun 29, 2015 18:46:08 GMT -5
Redback quote - "Thought things were the same, yesterday, today and forever." You seriously misunderstand what that sentence means Redback.
There's no real position on the consumption of alcohol in the bible. Some churches claim that "wine" in the bible meant grape juice, but that's stupid. We do have a position on drunkenness and the culture of alcohol consumption - but that's different.
Frankly I can't stand beer. Too bitter for me. I might have one or two drinks a year if it's really hot. I do drink wine but am not an aficionado. Last week a friend gave me a taste from two wine bottles. I couldn't really tell the difference, and she said, "Right, that does it then - I am not giving you the expensive stuff!!"Bert, you need to just hold your breath and get past that bitter taste and move right on in to a second beer. By the time you've downed 3 or 4, the bitterness fades away and from then on it's clear sailing! Exactly and same goes for tequila!
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Post by whyisitso on Jun 29, 2015 20:30:41 GMT -5
Bert you are so articulate, you leave me right behind. Just love and admire you more every day. I will not pick on you any more, promise. Pity anybody who does, you are my mate. Redback, it appears you've had too much beer that doesn't have any ginger in it. You ok?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 21:05:48 GMT -5
Bert you are so articulate, you leave me right behind. Just love and admire you more every day. I will not pick on you any more, promise. Pity anybody who does, you are my mate. Redback, it appears you've had too much beer that doesn't have any ginger in it. You ok? I am fine thanks why, thanks for asking. Just felt I wanted to connect with Bert. Love a challenge.
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Post by withlove on Jun 29, 2015 23:11:42 GMT -5
Plenty of kids profess who haven't been pressured by their parents. Those parents want it to be the Spirit that does all the work, which is how it should be. Unfortunately, there's no way to stop the kids from soaking up the inherent pressure there is in what is spoken in meetings and in conversations around them. Little pitchers have big ears. And that is not the Spirit speaking necessarily.
No matter what is making a child stand up, they have a right to know what they are getting into, and they definitely don't know all that goes on.
Not to be controversial, but I would say most adults who professed didn't make informed decisions either. There has been too much hidden.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2015 11:17:52 GMT -5
Bert you are so articulate, you leave me right behind. Just love and admire you more every day. I will not pick on you any more, promise. Pity anybody who does, you are my mate. Redback, it appears you've had too much beer that doesn't have any ginger in it. You ok? LOL it's his wife's pot plants. They make the world more 'mellow yellow'...
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2015 11:20:41 GMT -5
Plenty of kids profess who haven't been pressured by their parents. Those parents want it to be the Spirit that does all the work, which is how it should be. Unfortunately, there's no way to stop the kids from soaking up the inherent pressure there is in what is spoken in meetings and in conversations around them. Little pitchers have big ears. And that is not the Spirit speaking necessarily. No matter what is making a child stand up, they have a right to know what they are getting into, and they definitely don't know all that goes on. Not to be controversial, but I would say most adults who professed didn't make informed decisions either. There has been too much hidden. I'm pretty sure you're right about not knowing enough to make an informed decision. I have learned so much since I came on here. And my family started in this way in 1915. You would have thought I would have known a bit more about how it worked. Most of that, I will admit, was my fault I imagine. After 12 years of age I didn't want to know anymore about it and that's probably when I would have started to be told more? Hopefully?
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Post by withlove on Jun 30, 2015 18:19:02 GMT -5
Plenty of kids profess who haven't been pressured by their parents. Those parents want it to be the Spirit that does all the work, which is how it should be. Unfortunately, there's no way to stop the kids from soaking up the inherent pressure there is in what is spoken in meetings and in conversations around them. Little pitchers have big ears. And that is not the Spirit speaking necessarily. No matter what is making a child stand up, they have a right to know what they are getting into, and they definitely don't know all that goes on. Not to be controversial, but I would say most adults who professed didn't make informed decisions either. There has been too much hidden. I'm pretty sure you're right about not knowing enough to make an informed decision. I have learned so much since I came on here. And my family started in this way in 1915. You would have thought I would have known a bit more about how it worked. Most of that, I will admit, was my fault I imagine. After 12 years of age I didn't want to know anymore about it and that's probably when I would have started to be told more? Hopefully? Hard to say, but my guess is that you wouldn't have been told more at 12. I wasn't, and I don't think any of my peers were either. I have accidentally spilled some beans to adults who I thought must know, and they were completely shocked. For awhile my assumption was that most people knew things I was just finding out, but I was wrong, at least in my circles. Not sure--there must be places/people who discuss things with their children as they find them out. But many may find out in old age or even through their grown children?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jul 1, 2015 6:09:13 GMT -5
Have really appreciated this thread (and kudos to Admin for keeping things on track). I had no particular opinion on this, initially thinking that if children wanted to profess, they should be able to. But I appreciate Snow and Cindy's input, and think they are right. Children should be able to just be children, knowing that there is not an expectation to make such a decision publicly, especially one that generally causes so much ongoing stress with participation in the meetings. There is much pressure on children in the Two-by-Twos to profess, knowing they are disappointing their parents if they don't. Most of my peers had professed before their teens, or in very early teens. I refused to do it for appearances (I'm not saying others did, I just didn't feel genuine about it at that stage). I finally professed at 16, and was the last of my peers to do so.
I think about my own current church. There is no system at all of "coming forward" or "standing up", probably because we don't believe such decisions should be made under pressure in the public arena. Children go through Sunday school and catechism and then on to Bible study. When they are older, they might decide to attend a different church. For someone to become a professing member, they need to approach the church leadership and request it. There is no expectation that this will happen until people are old enough to really make a decision for themselves. Sometimes it happens in mid-teens, but usually late teens or beyond. Children are allowed to just be children, knowing that they are not expected to make such decisions when they are often still too young to understand what that decision really means for them. In the meantime, they are assured that they are already a part of God's family, and can still pray to him. Even if they become a member, of course, they might still decide at some stage to leave or transfer membership to another church. This is quite common where someone marries a person from a different church. So growing up in that environment, it is always known by children that the commitment they might eventually make is to God alone, not being confined to a particular group, and they will not be denounced or shunned if they choose to leave our church.
I should also note, that just because someone doesn't become a "member" in our church, doesn't assume they aren't a Christian. We have many fully participating people in our congregation who for various reasons are not official members. It is up to their own conscience if they take the bread and wine. We trust it to their own responsibility of knowing whether or not they have personally committed their life to Christ. My own parents, for example, have been coming to our church for years, but feel uncomfortable at the moment with the idea of membership - probably due to the spiritual abuse they suffered under the authority of the workers as "professing members". They are still considered completely a part of the congregation, take bread and wine, attend Bible study where they participate and pray, etc. As those who already freely profess Christ, it is up to them whether they decide to become official members of the congregation or not. I know all this will seem very foreign to those who have only belonged to the friends.
I guess the two-by-two model of "professing" or "not-professing", and all the baggage that both carry within the group (not to mention the power the workers hold of withdrawing someone's "part") is what creates the pressure and difficulty, especially for children. An age cap could be useful, but imagine the sudden increased pressure when you reached the official "professing age"!!
PS - I really dislike iced vovos. PPS - Would love some real home-made ginger beer again, especially the kind my Nana used to make. Although they often used to go "bang" in the night and set off a domino effect of explosions.
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Post by Lee on Jul 1, 2015 9:02:15 GMT -5
If you like ginger beer, try shredding your own ginger into your beer.
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Post by Lee on Jul 1, 2015 9:06:28 GMT -5
Extreme pressure to profess was my experience, 10+ of age, from within, and from without. Then after you did, and I did at 12, the pressure to produce a worthy prayer or testimony was crushing.
There is no soft-peddling indoctrination, whatever its form.
Generally speaking, its better than none.
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2015 11:12:32 GMT -5
I dont think we give enough credit to the child mind. Especially the child mind conditioned to think as the teacher thinks.By 'increase their faith" do you mean believe as you do? What about teaching them to seek truths for themselves?
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2015 11:21:46 GMT -5
I have seen a Saturday night convention meeting "tested" and a child so small they could hardly be seen will stand up and "make their choice". I know it puts the workers in a spot. Do you accept this choice or do you hurt the little child's feelings. Some of you may have professed young and knew what you were doing. I feel like parental pressure and maybe the content of the sermons probably influenced that choice. I am on my way home from an international conference on raising children in high control groups (we met in Stockholm) and one of the topics that came up over and over again was do children have a choice in belonging or not. The person who gave the what I think was the keynote address works with the part of the Swedish government that deals with children's rights. She very clearly stated that children do not have a choice when they are born and raised into a group. Other speakers through out the duration of the conference made it very clear that children do not have the ability to make an informed decision to become members of a group. They have not had the opportunity to see what else is out there. And often they are simply doing what they think is expected of them. After sitting through talks and visiting with other people who were raised as children in groups similar to the 2x2s - I agree with this consensus. My heart goes out to those little tykes sitting in meetings and feeling that they must profess in order to make God and the grown-ups around them happy. I remember when I first made "my choice" at the age of 8 - I was terrified that God would stop loving me because I was unwilling to do what I was supposed to do if I didn't stand up. Then came having to talk in meetings - I was so insecure and it took me a whole year to finally work up the courage to give my testimony. Praying was almost manageable but I wasn't sure what to say during testimony and was worried that what I thought was important wouldn't be acceptable to the adults around me. I feel for those poor little children and wish that if nothing else that the workers would make a rule about what age children should allowed to profess. My vote would be 18 because then they are adults in the eyes of the law and would hopefully have had a bit of exposure to other ideas by then. But that will never happen - alas a girl can wish though! Would this include being taught about all matters of faith? You are looking at a matryoshka doll and saying that children should not be allowed to learn about the smaller dolls while ignoring the larger ones. Sitting in meeting, a RCC church, or being taught by parents and friends what god expects from them to avoid eternal damnation - what is the difference?
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 3, 2015 8:05:11 GMT -5
I have seen a Saturday night convention meeting "tested" and a child so small they could hardly be seen will stand up and "make their choice". I know it puts the workers in a spot. Do you accept this choice or do you hurt the little child's feelings. Some of you may have professed young and knew what you were doing. I feel like parental pressure and maybe the content of the sermons probably influenced that choice. This must be an American thing. I have never seen a child this young in NZ 'profess. Many are in their late teens when they are much more aware of what they are doing.
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 3, 2015 8:11:53 GMT -5
Oops... so it is źzzz time.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2015 13:45:34 GMT -5
Cindy, can sure relate to how you felt when you professed at 8 years old. That's how old I was too. Taking part in meeting was always a fearful thing. I did it, but sure did agonize over it. However, it was good training for my career later in life when I had to speak to large crowds. It didn't seem to be as difficult for me and I'm sure it was my early experience of having to stand up in meeting and talk and at convention. Now that was THE hardest thing ever when you are 8 years old. I think you're right - I still agonize over speaking to a room full of people especially when the subject matter is sensitive and I don't know any of the people in the audience. Speaking at the conference was pretty scary because it was the first time that I've ever 'fessed up to having been in a cult-like group (in a professional setting) or addressed the lack of csa policies in a group before. My research advisor was in the audience and whenever my voice cracked or I started to lose my nerve he just nodded at me to keep going. There was one person who commented on the fact that my voice was so full of emotion - as an adult I was quite comfortable with finding a politically correct way to tell her to 'sod off' - as an 8 year old there's no way I would have done that. Instead I remember feeling ashamed and wishing there was an easier way to make God happy yep good training but I'm not sure it was worth the price.... I look at it this way. I professed at 8 years old and I take responsibility for that move. I took part in meetings and believed what I was told and I take responsibility for that also. When I was old enough to look at things more closely and started asking questions, I quit professing and I take responsibility for that also. I refuse to give away my personal power to a group that influenced my early years by continuing to be upset by what was. I am a stronger, more well rounded person now likely because of those early experiences and I would venture to say that you likely are too. I am actually thankful for the strict, rigid mindset, the exclusiveness etc. that the group had because I'm not sure I would have questioned there being a God if it hadn't been a bit extreme. The exclusiveness caused me grief and I questioned. If I was just part of a big traditional Christian group I might not have done that or felt it was necessary to question why a God would do that. Sometimes it's the extremes in our lives that make us sit up and pay attention and that's exactly what happened to me. For that I am forever grateful.
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