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Post by Persona non grata on Jun 14, 2015 13:01:27 GMT -5
To address the thread title: Growing up, the only thing that I heard about Edward Cooney was that we had relatives who where "Cooneyites" and THEY wouldn't fellowship with US. Whether that statement is true or not, I don't know, but it does leave ME in the position of not having anything against fellowshipping with THEM.  |
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Post by emy on Jun 14, 2015 13:44:51 GMT -5
If one wants to include Father, Son and Spirit, the word would more properly be God, not Jesus!  Any Oneness people here? IL Gal was... Oneness as in 'we are all connected"? Man is not an island? What we do can have repercussions way beyond what we know? Or the New Age meaning of oneness? That we are all one like a cell in the body of a higher power? Some thought is that everything is connected and cannot be separate based on what is believed in quantum science. So many different definition of oneness depending on your beliefs. The triune god is just one more example of that. So what definition of 'Oneness' are you meaning Emy? My reference was to this "Oneness." The "Jesus Only" movement, also known as Oneness Pentecostalism or oneness theology, teaches that there is only one God, but denies the tri-unity of God. |
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Post by emy on Jun 14, 2015 13:48:43 GMT -5
The hymn still says, "Jesus is our only message..." Wouldn't "Jesus only is our message" leave out the Father and Holy Spirit? Do they mean the same? Only Jesus = Jesus only? Of course "Jesus only" or "only Jesus" would entail what he supposedly said and did and what was supposedly involved in his life, his being. Where does one stop with that? As the hymn reads now, it is "only message" vs "Jesus only." I think there is a difference. IOW, the Way is still Jesus, but we need the Father and Holy Spirit, too? |
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Post by Greg on Jun 14, 2015 13:58:57 GMT -5
Do they mean the same? Only Jesus = Jesus only? Of course "Jesus only" or "only Jesus" would entail what he supposedly said and did and what was supposedly involved in his life, his being. Where does one stop with that? As the hymn reads now, it is "only message" vs "Jesus only." I think there is a difference. IOW, the Way is still Jesus, but we need the Father and Holy Spirit, too? You are just using two words from the two versions. What are the whole lines? "Jesus only is our message"? and "Only Jesus is our message"? Neither only Jesus as the message or Jesus only as the message excludes the Father and Holy Spirit. |
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Post by emy on Jun 14, 2015 14:13:02 GMT -5
As the hymn reads now, it is "only message" vs "Jesus only." I think there is a difference. IOW, the Way is still Jesus, but we need the Father and Holy Spirit, too? You are just using two words from the two versions. What are the whole lines? "Jesus only is our message"? and "Only Jesus is our message"? Neither only Jesus as the message or Jesus only as the message excludes the Father and Holy Spirit. No, Greg. It's "Jesus is our ONLY message" instead of " Jesus ONLY is our message.." See how the 2nd would more easily fit the Oneness message, but the first identifies the fellowship as Christian? |
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Post by Greg on Jun 14, 2015 14:17:55 GMT -5
You are just using two words from the two versions. What are the whole lines? "Jesus only is our message"? and "Only Jesus is our message"? Neither only Jesus as the message or Jesus only as the message excludes the Father and Holy Spirit. No, Greg. It's "Jesus is our ONLY message" instead of " Jesus ONLY is our message.." See how the 2nd would more easily fit the Oneness message? I do not see that. You might be inferring something not implied. I'm not sure what the oneness message is, so would be difficult for me to see that in "Jesus only is our message." |
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Post by Greg on Jun 14, 2015 14:19:07 GMT -5
You are just using two words from the two versions. What are the whole lines? "Jesus only is our message"? and "Only Jesus is our message"? Neither only Jesus as the message or Jesus only as the message excludes the Father and Holy Spirit. No, Greg. It's "Jesus is our ONLY message" instead of " Jesus ONLY is our message.." See how the 2nd would more easily fit the Oneness message, but the first identifies the fellowship as Christian? I do not see that. |
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Post by snow on Jun 14, 2015 14:21:58 GMT -5
Oneness as in 'we are all connected"? Man is not an island? What we do can have repercussions way beyond what we know? Or the New Age meaning of oneness? That we are all one like a cell in the body of a higher power? Some thought is that everything is connected and cannot be separate based on what is believed in quantum science. So many different definition of oneness depending on your beliefs. The triune god is just one more example of that. So what definition of 'Oneness' are you meaning Emy? My reference was to this "Oneness." The "Jesus Only" movement, also known as Oneness Pentecostalism or oneness theology, teaches that there is only one God, but denies the tri-unity of God. Okay, thanks Emy. |
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Post by maryhig on Jun 14, 2015 15:25:24 GMT -5
To address the thread title: Growing up, the only thing that I heard about Edward Cooney was that we had relatives who where "Cooneyites" and THEY wouldn't fellowship with US. Whether that statement is true or not, I don't know, but it does leave ME in the position of not having anything against fellowshipping with THEM. No it's not true. We would have fellowship with you. I feel a closeness to many of your people on here. Thank you for saying you would too. This has lifted my heart |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 15:51:01 GMT -5
I have noted a number of potential misrepresentations/misunderstandings of history on this thread. It may be therefore worth taking the time to reacquaint ourselves with the evidence available as regards the earlier days of the 2x2 sect. Here's one classic example. Matt10
July 25, 1907, p. 8
THE IMPARTIAL REPORTER
Established 1808.
Newspaper for Enniskillen, Northern Ireland
.... Crocknacrieve at present resembles a large asylum. On entering the beautiful grounds one meets with couples here and there walking through the groves covered with luxuriant foliage. The women folk keep mostly to themselves. They do not wander about with the brethren. As one of the tramp preachers remarked—‘This is not the time for courting. They can court elsewhere. They come here to work, not to court.’ One lady tramp was asked jokingly by a visitor, ‘Do you do much match-making here?’ Such a matter of fact idea as marriage did not occur to her for she replied: ‘No, we do not make any matches, as they are so cheap to buy.’
During the week, services are regularly held and are attended largely, as many as 1,000 being present at the Sunday evening services. On an average about eight hours are spent each day in worship, and as many as seven addresses have been given at one service.
Although the ‘tramps’ boast of no leaders, no secretaries, &c., still they have their appointments in other departments. In the large farmyard is posted up the list of those who supervise in the kitchen, the dairy, the post office, and the hospital. The man told off to look after the bed accommodation, those who cook, shave, hair dress, and tailor, those who repair boots and cycles, the authorities on railway communications, those appointed to watch over the houses where bicycles are stored; the names of all those men and women are posted up.
Discipline is carried out more strictly than one would imagine. It appears that some of the ‘tramps’ (both men and women) had been guilty of talking at night after retiring to rest to the discomfiture of others. The matter was reported to Mr. Wm. Irwin, and at an evening meeting last week he announced that if any one in future talked after going to bed, that person’s name would be given to him next day and publicly mentioned, and arrangements made for his or her departure.
Like every other sect the ‘tramps’ have their back sliders and recalcitrant workers. One of their workers, J.L., [John Long] was accused of loafing for the past 12 months instead of working zealously and bringing converts to the ‘Jesus way’ of living. His ideas, evidently, were not far-fetched enough for his chiefs. At one of the services the suspected ‘loafer’ was called forth to give an address, and in the course of that address J.L. [John Long] spoke of the Ark of Noah. What was in it and not in it? There was no tobacco or pipes in it, he said. The speaker was interrupted by Mr. Irwin, who said to him ‘Say there were no clergy in it.’ ‘No, there were no clergy in it, ‘ quietly remarked the speaker. ‘Say it strong’ commanded Mr. Irwin in his gruff tone. But the speaker did not repeat it. It is understood that J.L. [John Long] was given notice to quit and left on Tuesday last.
Mr. Edward Cooney was the principal speaker on Saturday evening last. He read the 2nd chapter of Revelations and gave his interpretation of each verse as he read it. He spoke of the seven churches of Christ and said that God was not interested in the Salvation Army, in the Methodist or Roman Catholic churches. He was only interested in the churches in the New Testament—churches formed by angels or messengers. The only one who could form a church was in the right hand of Christ and was ever willing to do His will in His way. That was why John Wesley was not a messenger of Christ, John Wesley never put himself in the right hand of Christ. People say times have changed. Jesus had been most particular that all sent in the early days should not be greater than He. Now they had the Salvation Army, the clergymen and the evangelists, who were all sent by the Devil, for Jesus never changed. Some people have often asked why they had no organisation. They had none, said Mr. Cooney, because organisation was of the Devil. Why no secretaries, no committees, no directors in the Lord’s work?
WHY HAD THEY NO LEADERS?
Because, they all were of the Devil. Jesus, himself, was their captain and guide. Every church formed had Jesus for its bishop and inspector. Jesus removed those unfaithful to him and encouraged those who were faithful. Having referred to the preaching of John the Baptist and those who were his followers and called themselves Johnites, Mr. Cooney said that those who called themselves Irwinites or Cooneyites were all going to Hell, for John had preached that they might be Christians and not Johnites. Those men had stopped short and had not understood the preaching of John. He (Mr. Cooney) had a reputation for kicking up rows, but he was always comforted when he read about Paul who went through the country districts and towns and got them turned upside down. If anyone tried to persuade them that John Wesley was an Apostle of Jesus, he could not. Why? Because they believed in the ‘Jesus way.’ If they tried John Wesley by Jesus, that what he declared himself—the sent one of Jesus, they found he was a liar, because he was not according to the pattern of Jesus, who was the pattern of the Apostles. In conclusion, Mr. Cooney made reference to baptism. They got baptized by total immersion in water as a public confession that they belonged to Jesus. To illustrate that the speaker said that when a girl wished to get married she first of all told the man of her choice, and afterwards made a public confession of her choice, by being publicly married at a registry office. A registry office was the proper place to get married. Clergymen could not marry. The Apostles never married any one and never would. Giving in marriage was the civil right of a representative of King Edward VII —a magistrate..
HOLY COMMUNION CELEBRATED.
At the conclusion of the morning service on last Sunday morning the ‘Tramps’ celebrated Holy Communion. The service was quaint. There was no bright silver chalice for the wine, or was the bread cut in small pieces and neatly arranged on a silver paten. No one presided at the ceremony. The ‘Tramps’ sat in the large tent where they dine and hold their meetings. Thanks having been offered up by Mr. Edward Cooney, bread was handed round by men workers (women workers never take any part in the ceremony except to receive Communion) to those present. A loaf is cut into six parts, and one of these parts is given to each row. The first person receiving the bread breaks off a small piece and eats it, passing on the bread to the next, who also breaks off a piece and hands it on to his neighbour, and so on. After the bread has thus been passed round and eaten, the wine is sent round. The wine is in ordinary earthenware jugs and is poured into mugs which are then handed round. There was no singing at the ceremony. No one spoke or made a sound while the bread and wine were being passed round..
BAPTISMAL SERVICE.
Before the afternoon service was begun several converts were baptised by total immersion. The Baptismal Font is the ladies’ bathing place. A stream runs along the valley at the north-east side of the house, and a large hole was dug out and a dam placed at the lower side, the water filling the hole and making a small pond. The depth of the pond is about four feet, and as there were 27 to be baptised, two of the workers performed the ceremony of immersing the converts in the water, so that a considerable amount of time was saved. One convert was of such dimensions that it took two men to put her under water. After the ceremony, an open air service was held, and an address was given by a worker who was an old soldier. Unfortunately he could not be satisfied with himself unless he indulged in some abuse of the clergy. The Pope, he said, was a devil at heart, the clergymen were always servants of the Devil. Continuing, the speaker said that the better they stood in their attitude towards men, the worse they stood towards God. It was sad that they had one in their midst who had a smack of the clergy. He had seen Christian fanatics in the east lie on spikes for days, sit on ashes day and night, and hang by a spike from the flesh in the back. They all go down to Hell blindfolded. It had been asked where did they all go before the teachings of William Irwin or Edward Cooney. Where did the proposing Christians go? Do you mean that they have gone to a lost eternity? ‘They have all,’ said the speaker, ‘gone to Hell, every single one of them unless they were born again, or else God Almighty is a liar and they are his dupes.’ .
THE DOCTRINE OF THE REFORMATION.
An interval in the service was made at half-past five, when tea was served to all present. At half-past six the service was resumed, and Mr. Edward Cooney was the principal speaker. He made a number of personal references to his youth and to occurrences which had warned him against a lost eternity. Mr. Cooney also spoke on John the Baptist and his Gospel. The Methodist Gospel, he said, would land them all in Hell. The Gospel of the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian Churches would land them in Hell. The only Gospel that would land them in Heaven was the Gospel of Jesus, the Apostles’ Gospel. What was the Gospel of the Presbyterians, Methodists, &c. Here it is—give up smoking, drinking, swearing, dancing, theatre-going, novel reading, &c. Some go further than others. And while they preach that men should give up all those sins, they allow two of the most damnable and devilish sins in the eyes of God. John the Baptist put his two fingers on those two sins—love of money and pride. The proud man was surer of going to Hell than the harlot. Love of money would send them far faster to Hell than the love of whisky. He never met a man or woman who loved his neighbour as himself till he got into fellowship with the ‘Tramp Preachers.’ The ‘Tramp Preachers’ demonstrate it in their flesh. John said if a man hath two coats, give one away. The Sunday Suits were of the Devil. If they preached that in Enniskillen Methodist Church, the people there would say they were dafted. He preached it at a convention at Keswick, and a prominent evangelist shouted ‘humbug’ at him.
After Mr. Cooney had finished speaking, a Miss May Carroll spoke and the meeting concluded with the usual call on converts to confess their conversion by standing up publicly. Altogether the ‘Tramps’ were continually at service from 10 a.m. that morning till 9:30 p.m., excepting two hours interval for meals.
Mr. Edward Cooney left Crocknacrieve on Monday with two companions for the Keswick convention. Mr. Cooney was at Keswick last year and held meetings and denounced the clergy. At the meetings there were many interruptions, and it is anticipated that there will be a recurrence of last year’s scenes.
The convention has still another week’s work before it, and before it closes it is expected there will be another baptismal service. Between 60 and 70 workers have volunteered for foreign lands, and up to 50 have entered the work.
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Post by Persona non grata on Jun 14, 2015 15:58:59 GMT -5
To address the thread title: Growing up, the only thing that I heard about Edward Cooney was that we had relatives who where "Cooneyites" and THEY wouldn't fellowship with US. Whether that statement is true or not, I don't know, but it does leave ME in the position of not having anything against fellowshipping with THEM. No it's not true. We would have fellowship with you. I feel a closeness to many of your people on here. Thank you for saying you would too. This has lifted my heart That's good to hear. And you'd be welcome to fellowship with us in our local meeting. On the way to the meeting this morning, a sister worker shared with us her recent experience of fellowship with a member of the Plymouth Brethren, a group normally more exclusive than the f&w. I think it's not the group policy that makes fellowship possible but the Spirit in each individual. |
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Post by snow on Jun 15, 2015 11:35:14 GMT -5
I have noted a number of potential misrepresentations/misunderstandings of history on this thread. It may be therefore worth taking the time to reacquaint ourselves with the evidence available as regards the earlier days of the 2x2 sect. Here's one classic example. Matt10 July 25, 1907, p. 8 THE IMPARTIAL REPORTER Established 1808. Newspaper for Enniskillen, Northern Ireland .... Crocknacrieve at present resembles a large asylum. On entering the beautiful grounds one meets with couples here and there walking through the groves covered with luxuriant foliage. The women folk keep mostly to themselves. They do not wander about with the brethren. As one of the tramp preachers remarked—‘This is not the time for courting. They can court elsewhere. They come here to work, not to court.’ One lady tramp was asked jokingly by a visitor, ‘Do you do much match-making here?’ Such a matter of fact idea as marriage did not occur to her for she replied: ‘No, we do not make any matches, as they are so cheap to buy.’ During the week, services are regularly held and are attended largely, as many as 1,000 being present at the Sunday evening services. On an average about eight hours are spent each day in worship, and as many as seven addresses have been given at one service. Although the ‘tramps’ boast of no leaders, no secretaries, &c., still they have their appointments in other departments. In the large farmyard is posted up the list of those who supervise in the kitchen, the dairy, the post office, and the hospital. The man told off to look after the bed accommodation, those who cook, shave, hair dress, and tailor, those who repair boots and cycles, the authorities on railway communications, those appointed to watch over the houses where bicycles are stored; the names of all those men and women are posted up. Discipline is carried out more strictly than one would imagine. It appears that some of the ‘tramps’ (both men and women) had been guilty of talking at night after retiring to rest to the discomfiture of others. The matter was reported to Mr. Wm. Irwin, and at an evening meeting last week he announced that if any one in future talked after going to bed, that person’s name would be given to him next day and publicly mentioned, and arrangements made for his or her departure. Like every other sect the ‘tramps’ have their back sliders and recalcitrant workers. One of their workers, J.L., [John Long] was accused of loafing for the past 12 months instead of working zealously and bringing converts to the ‘Jesus way’ of living. His ideas, evidently, were not far-fetched enough for his chiefs. At one of the services the suspected ‘loafer’ was called forth to give an address, and in the course of that address J.L. [John Long] spoke of the Ark of Noah. What was in it and not in it? There was no tobacco or pipes in it, he said. The speaker was interrupted by Mr. Irwin, who said to him ‘Say there were no clergy in it.’ ‘No, there were no clergy in it, ‘ quietly remarked the speaker. ‘Say it strong’ commanded Mr. Irwin in his gruff tone. But the speaker did not repeat it. It is understood that J.L. [John Long] was given notice to quit and left on Tuesday last. Mr. Edward Cooney was the principal speaker on Saturday evening last. He read the 2nd chapter of Revelations and gave his interpretation of each verse as he read it. He spoke of the seven churches of Christ and said that God was not interested in the Salvation Army, in the Methodist or Roman Catholic churches. He was only interested in the churches in the New Testament—churches formed by angels or messengers. The only one who could form a church was in the right hand of Christ and was ever willing to do His will in His way. That was why John Wesley was not a messenger of Christ, John Wesley never put himself in the right hand of Christ. People say times have changed. Jesus had been most particular that all sent in the early days should not be greater than He. Now they had the Salvation Army, the clergymen and the evangelists, who were all sent by the Devil, for Jesus never changed. Some people have often asked why they had no organisation. They had none, said Mr. Cooney, because organisation was of the Devil. Why no secretaries, no committees, no directors in the Lord’s work? WHY HAD THEY NO LEADERS? Because, they all were of the Devil. Jesus, himself, was their captain and guide. Every church formed had Jesus for its bishop and inspector. Jesus removed those unfaithful to him and encouraged those who were faithful. Having referred to the preaching of John the Baptist and those who were his followers and called themselves Johnites, Mr. Cooney said that those who called themselves Irwinites or Cooneyites were all going to Hell, for John had preached that they might be Christians and not Johnites. Those men had stopped short and had not understood the preaching of John. He (Mr. Cooney) had a reputation for kicking up rows, but he was always comforted when he read about Paul who went through the country districts and towns and got them turned upside down. If anyone tried to persuade them that John Wesley was an Apostle of Jesus, he could not. Why? Because they believed in the ‘Jesus way.’ If they tried John Wesley by Jesus, that what he declared himself—the sent one of Jesus, they found he was a liar, because he was not according to the pattern of Jesus, who was the pattern of the Apostles. In conclusion, Mr. Cooney made reference to baptism. They got baptized by total immersion in water as a public confession that they belonged to Jesus. To illustrate that the speaker said that when a girl wished to get married she first of all told the man of her choice, and afterwards made a public confession of her choice, by being publicly married at a registry office. A registry office was the proper place to get married. Clergymen could not marry. The Apostles never married any one and never would. Giving in marriage was the civil right of a representative of King Edward VII —a magistrate.. HOLY COMMUNION CELEBRATED. At the conclusion of the morning service on last Sunday morning the ‘Tramps’ celebrated Holy Communion. The service was quaint. There was no bright silver chalice for the wine, or was the bread cut in small pieces and neatly arranged on a silver paten. No one presided at the ceremony. The ‘Tramps’ sat in the large tent where they dine and hold their meetings. Thanks having been offered up by Mr. Edward Cooney, bread was handed round by men workers (women workers never take any part in the ceremony except to receive Communion) to those present. A loaf is cut into six parts, and one of these parts is given to each row. The first person receiving the bread breaks off a small piece and eats it, passing on the bread to the next, who also breaks off a piece and hands it on to his neighbour, and so on. After the bread has thus been passed round and eaten, the wine is sent round. The wine is in ordinary earthenware jugs and is poured into mugs which are then handed round. There was no singing at the ceremony. No one spoke or made a sound while the bread and wine were being passed round.. BAPTISMAL SERVICE. Before the afternoon service was begun several converts were baptised by total immersion. The Baptismal Font is the ladies’ bathing place. A stream runs along the valley at the north-east side of the house, and a large hole was dug out and a dam placed at the lower side, the water filling the hole and making a small pond. The depth of the pond is about four feet, and as there were 27 to be baptised, two of the workers performed the ceremony of immersing the converts in the water, so that a considerable amount of time was saved. One convert was of such dimensions that it took two men to put her under water. After the ceremony, an open air service was held, and an address was given by a worker who was an old soldier. Unfortunately he could not be satisfied with himself unless he indulged in some abuse of the clergy. The Pope, he said, was a devil at heart, the clergymen were always servants of the Devil. Continuing, the speaker said that the better they stood in their attitude towards men, the worse they stood towards God. It was sad that they had one in their midst who had a smack of the clergy. He had seen Christian fanatics in the east lie on spikes for days, sit on ashes day and night, and hang by a spike from the flesh in the back. They all go down to Hell blindfolded. It had been asked where did they all go before the teachings of William Irwin or Edward Cooney. Where did the proposing Christians go? Do you mean that they have gone to a lost eternity? ‘They have all,’ said the speaker, ‘gone to Hell, every single one of them unless they were born again, or else God Almighty is a liar and they are his dupes.’ . THE DOCTRINE OF THE REFORMATION. An interval in the service was made at half-past five, when tea was served to all present. At half-past six the service was resumed, and Mr. Edward Cooney was the principal speaker. He made a number of personal references to his youth and to occurrences which had warned him against a lost eternity. Mr. Cooney also spoke on John the Baptist and his Gospel. The Methodist Gospel, he said, would land them all in Hell. The Gospel of the Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, or Episcopalian Churches would land them in Hell. The only Gospel that would land them in Heaven was the Gospel of Jesus, the Apostles’ Gospel. What was the Gospel of the Presbyterians, Methodists, &c. Here it is—give up smoking, drinking, swearing, dancing, theatre-going, novel reading, &c. Some go further than others. And while they preach that men should give up all those sins, they allow two of the most damnable and devilish sins in the eyes of God. John the Baptist put his two fingers on those two sins—love of money and pride. The proud man was surer of going to Hell than the harlot. Love of money would send them far faster to Hell than the love of whisky. He never met a man or woman who loved his neighbour as himself till he got into fellowship with the ‘Tramp Preachers.’ The ‘Tramp Preachers’ demonstrate it in their flesh. John said if a man hath two coats, give one away. The Sunday Suits were of the Devil. If they preached that in Enniskillen Methodist Church, the people there would say they were dafted. He preached it at a convention at Keswick, and a prominent evangelist shouted ‘humbug’ at him. After Mr. Cooney had finished speaking, a Miss May Carroll spoke and the meeting concluded with the usual call on converts to confess their conversion by standing up publicly. Altogether the ‘Tramps’ were continually at service from 10 a.m. that morning till 9:30 p.m., excepting two hours interval for meals. Mr. Edward Cooney left Crocknacrieve on Monday with two companions for the Keswick convention. Mr. Cooney was at Keswick last year and held meetings and denounced the clergy. At the meetings there were many interruptions, and it is anticipated that there will be a recurrence of last year’s scenes. The convention has still another week’s work before it, and before it closes it is expected there will be another baptismal service. Between 60 and 70 workers have volunteered for foreign lands, and up to 50 have entered the work. Interesting, thanks Matt10. I found the infighting interesting. It seems the one's who founded the religion were not all on the same page very early on. No wonder there were excommunications etc. It also doesn't look like the community welcomed them overly. I didn't realize that in the beginning it was more like a commune? |
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Post by learning on Jun 22, 2015 21:59:57 GMT -5
It's a very good question, thanks review. I think I mean globally. But to avoid anyone jumping on my statement, there may be parts of the F&W world where this does not apply such as your own field. However, from personal experience and what friends have been saying for a long time now from many different areas, this is more of a widespread need. You really spelt out what is needed in this line of your earlier post "It was inspired and moved forward by the Holy Spirit working in the dozens and hundreds of lives in many countries in the early decades of the 20th century." This is not happening today, globally in our fellowship. Back then when you say the Holy Spirit was working mightily, our fellowship was relevant for those hundreds of churchgoers who sensed a deadness in their denominational churches. Today in various places where many of us live, almost nobody from other churches comes and continues with missions. Why? Well, perhaps there is no strong sense of the Holy Spirit at work? I'm not sure, I'm not one of them. But for whatever reason, they either don't come or don't keep coming. But I can tell you that what is preached is often not "Jesus only, Jesus ever". Too often the message in gospel meeting is about believing in the church in the home and a homeless 2x2 ministry 'like Jesus commanded'. That is all very well, but it is not a gospel message for salvation. Not according to my bible, anyway. And anyone coming to those gospel meetings from another church is likely to know their bibles rather well. The emphasis is to cause the audience to learn the importance of believing in our form of worship (home) and Ministry (2x2), rather than (or sometimes, as well as) Jesus, Lamb of God for sinners slain. It's possible most Workers aren't even aware, rather it is more an ingrained habit from a tradition that has formed. I have responded openly and honestly to your question, review. Before anyone criticizes my response, this may not be true of all gospel meetings. But it is true in my region, and in many other places where I have friends who say the same. Your own gospel meetings review in your land may be very different. But probably your experience of being in other Worker's gospel missions is somewhat limited. That hymn starts "Jesus is our only message, Jesus all our theme shall be". Good to get back to that as the theme for all gospel meetings. Back to basics. Perhaps then we might see great revival, like back when you wrote about. Incidentally, I wonder why the title of that hymn (by Charles C Converse) was changed to "Jesus Now and Jesus Ever"? What was wrong with "Jesus only"? admin My personal experience is different to that of Admin. I mention the form of the ministry very occasionally in Gospel meetings. When I do mention it is to help our friends understand the scriptural basis to why our ministry is as it is and why it is different to every other ministry that I am aware of. I can't remember the last time I have mentioned about our gathering in homes in a gospel meeting (or fellowship or convention meeting for that matter). Lots of groups gather in homes these days anyway. The reason I don't mention these two things is because I am not prompted or moved by the Spirit to do so. I preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and sometimes people get the Spirit working in them in the period of time they are listening. They get conviction, they repent and get saved. But I have deep personal convictions about the New Testament ministry! I believe in the ministry that started as a short term mission to the lost sheep of Israel in Matthew 10 and then further commissioned in Matthew 28 to include the Gentiles is the ministry that God will use and bless unto the end of the age in time. I don't see any other model in the New Testament for an evangelical ministry. I also deeply believe that the ministry and the church/the friends work should work in a close partnership and the main thing in life for all of us is living right with God ourselves and then trying to help others in that also. For me it is a meaningless and self contradicting statement to say "believing in Jesus plus a homeless ministry and church is the home"! For me to believe in Jesus it to believe in all he lived and taught. The ministry Jesus established is a part on his teaching! He didn't give that 'for fun' and we can take it or leave it! He lived, taught and established an apostolic ministry that he said he would be with until the end of the age. So if I dismiss or explain that away then I am taking away from the Word of God! That is just my personal conviction and experience. I don't force that down anyone else's throat. But there are millions of preachers living in thousands of different ways teaching thousands of different doctrine which leads to thousands of different ways. That is too big for me, I can't sort that out. I leave that to God. Amongst them are some fine people with integrity who live for God and live for others. I respect and appreciate such. There are others who aren't fine people and they don't have integrity and they live selfishly! I don't judge them unsaved and I also don't judge them saved. I leave that in the hands of the one who is looking after that. I live and teach others in the way that God has revealed to me and which I have deep personal convictions about. It has brought salvation, joy and satisfaction and the hope of eternal life to me. I have no idea why the title of that hymn ( not by Charles C Converse but by Albert Simpson) was changed to "Jesus Now and Jesus Ever"? But I sure don't see anything 'sinister'! The title used is that from the first line of the chorus and that is very often done when the first line of each verse of the hymn is not the same. I have been to meetings on five continents and I've lost count of how many countries but it would be over twenty. Sometimes I've heard my colleagues preach about a homeless ministry. I could not say it has been my experience that emphasis has been on the form of worship. Time and time again I heard my colleagues preaching Jesus only.... with no denominational flavour. This is just my experience and perception and I accept that others have one different to mine. review005. In the context of this post, I personally like your "personal experience and conviction" and that you don't "force that down anyone's throat". But doesn't the concept of a personal conviction run somewhat contrary to the idea of a spirit-led ministry? For example, how does the same spirit lead you to NOT stress the "form of the ministry" but the same spirit leads others to stress the very same? |
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Post by learning on Jun 23, 2015 8:26:22 GMT -5
Learning, I struggle to understand your question. I wrote "I live and teach others in the way that God has revealed to me and which I have deep personal convictions about. It has brought salvation, joy and satisfaction and the hope of eternal life to me."and "But I have deep personal convictions about the New Testament ministry! I believe in the ministry that started as a short term mission to the lost sheep of Israel in Matthew 10 and then further commissioned in Matthew 28 to include the Gentiles is the ministry that God will use and bless unto the end of the age in time. I don't see any other model in the New Testament for an evangelical ministry. I also deeply believe that the ministry and the church/the friends work should work in a close partnership and the main thing in life for all of us is living right with God ourselves and then trying to help others in that also.For me it is a meaningless and self contradicting statement to say "believing in Jesus plus a homeless ministry and church is the home"!For me to believe in Jesus it to believe in all he lived and taught. The ministry Jesus established is a part on his teaching!"Yeah, I struggled to put the words together to ask the question and I see the question isn't clear. I'll try to re-state... and if you are more comfortable taking this conversation offline to PM I am open to that. You state your belief above that the ministry being sent forth in Matthew 10 was a short term mission. Which is something I just discovered myself this past year ("...when they returned", etc) but until reading your post I have never before heard a worker acknowledge this portion of scripture as a short term mission. In fact many times I hear what appears to be the opposite, that this portion of scripture upholds the life long mission and dedication of the workers to go forth as they do. Certainly this is commonly understood among the saints and in the few conversations with other saints that I have had it was a surprise to the other to consider that this portion of scripture was a short term mission. To the extent that the spirit leads you to conclude and understand the source of your mission by those two portions of scripture combined, what do we then conclude prompts the other workers to present only the Matthew 10 portion of scripture as justification to why they go forth the way they do? |
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