Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 17:59:37 GMT -5
Today Irish voters voted overwhelmingly to legalise same sex marriage striking a blow against inequality and against those who claim God is on their side on this one. Now one can marry their partner irrespective of what gender they are. No longer can the state insist that gay people can only marry people of the gender they are not attracted to but not marry people of the gender they are attracted to. However one part of the island of Ireland (the North) continues to deny same sex couples the legal right to marry. Here the biggest political party continues to claim, somewhat absurdly, that God is opposed to homosexuality and therefore by denying gay couples the same rights as heterosexual couples they are doing the will of God. If God really does oppose same sex marriage then He was clearly not powerful enough to prevent the move to legalise it in that part of Ireland which voted overwhelmingly for it today. Another example of the diminishing power of God or perhaps God really doesn't give a hoot after all?
Of course the big question for us is that if a legally married same sex couple attend a 2x2 mission in Ireland next year and feel moved to 'profess' what will the official 2x2 position on this be? Will they be accepted into the 2x2 fold as they are or will they be required to divorce prior to being baptised? Will they be allowed to remain married but required to take a vow of celibacy? Will they be prevented from 'professing' altogether and therefore condemned to a lost eternity? Perhaps this is an issue that 2x2 Workers participating on the board will be best placed to advise upon or, if unable to advise, will be well placed to obtain the views of their Irish co-workers on. Does the 2x2 church have a policy on same sex married couples wanting to profess or will they just make it up as they go along? Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 18:09:34 GMT -5
since God in the OT did condemn someone who did practice it to death i'd say he was against it. as to why he didn't stop it...free will. however I think God will have the last laugh on judgment day...
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 18:35:17 GMT -5
Very proud of my Irish friends today.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 18:41:25 GMT -5
since God in the OT did condemn someone who did practice it to death i'd say he was against it. as to why he didn't stop it...free will. however I think God will have the last laugh on judgment day... Wally, has God changed his mind at all on this topic?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 18:52:11 GMT -5
since God in the OT did condemn someone who did practice it to death i'd say he was against it. as to why he didn't stop it...free will. however I think God will have the last laugh on judgment day... Wally, has God changed his mind at all on this topic? only the part about immediate death hes saving that for judgment day...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 18:53:27 GMT -5
Very proud of my Irish friends today. So am I, Gene, so am I!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on May 23, 2015 19:05:01 GMT -5
Wally, has God changed his mind at all on this topic? only the part about immediate death hes saving that for judgment day... Poor Wally, - how much strain you must be living under, -trying to sure that you obey all those Old Testament commandments. "Leviticus says not to eat shellfish (Lev. 11:9-12), use mixed seed or fabrics (Lev. 19:19), harvest the corners of fields (Lev. 19:9)," Do you ever eat any clams, lobster, shrimp or ....?
Do you make sure your clothing isn't a mix of cotton & wool, or flax & silk, or flax & wool and cotton or.....?
Unless you are a farmer of course, -you won't have to worry about harvesting.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 19:22:11 GMT -5
Wally, has God changed his mind at all on this topic? only the part about immediate death hes saving that for judgment day... Hmmm.... I'm not so sure. I'm wondering if maybe modern-day Christians just don't have the nerve to carry out God's will.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 19:22:44 GMT -5
This is no help whatsoever though to workers who practice homosexuality and can't marry.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on May 23, 2015 20:01:36 GMT -5
Today Irish voters voted overwhelmingly to legalise same sex marriage striking a blow against inequality and against those who claim God is on their side on this one. Now one can marry their partner irrespective of what gender they are. No longer can the state insist that gay people can only marry people of the gender they are not attracted to but not marry people of the gender they are attracted to. However one part of the island of Ireland (the North) continues to deny same sex couples the legal right to marry. Here the biggest political party continues to claim, somewhat absurdly, that God is opposed to homosexuality and therefore by denying gay couples the same rights as heterosexual couples they are doing the will of God. If God really does oppose same sex marriage then He was clearly not powerful enough to prevent the move to legalise it in that part of Ireland which voted overwhelmingly for it today. Another example of the diminishing power of God or perhaps God really doesn't give a hoot after all? Of course the big question for us is that if a legally married same sex couple attend a 2x2 mission in Ireland next year and feel moved to 'profess' what will the official 2x2 position on this be? Will they be accepted into the 2x2 fold as they are or will they be required to divorce prior to being baptised? Will they be allowed to remain married but required to take a vow of celibacy? Will they be prevented from 'professing' altogether and therefore condemned to a lost eternity? Perhaps this is an issue that 2x2 Workers participating on the board will be best placed to advise upon or, if unable to advise, will be well placed to obtain the views of their Irish co-workers on. Does the 2x2 church have a policy on same sex married couples wanting to profess or will they just make it up as they go along? Matt10 N Ireland will soon conform. They're the only ones left in the British Isles, and they're being sued by a couple who were legally married in England. Of course, knowing the history of N Ireland they may just have another war over it.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on May 23, 2015 21:25:42 GMT -5
The West is largely heterosexual precisely because same sex attraction was outlawed under Judaism (there is no such thing as homosexuality, they can't reproduce). Evidently evolution needed external reinforcement. Sexuality was too-fluid-a-matter to primitive man, illicit with respect to the imperative of reproduction.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 21:51:20 GMT -5
1960's Swinging, group and casual sex, living together Ireland 1, God 0
1995 legalising of divorce Ireland 1, God 0
2013 legalizing of abortion Ireland 1, God 0
Coming next
Decriminalizing of narcotics Ireland 1, God 0
Legalization of polygamy, polyamory, polyandry etc.. Ireland 1, God 0
Decriminalizing of child porn. Ireland 1, God 0
Burning or pulling down the churches Ireland 1, God 0
Ireland is on a winning streak.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 22:30:21 GMT -5
I reckon that part two and three of Coming Next is just wishful thinking on your part Bert.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:30:48 GMT -5
only the part about immediate death hes saving that for judgment day... Poor Wally, - how much strain you must be living under, -trying to sure that you obey all those Old Testament commandments. "Leviticus says not to eat shellfish (Lev. 11:9-12), use mixed seed or fabrics (Lev. 19:19), harvest the corners of fields (Lev. 19:9)," Do you ever eat any clams, lobster, shrimp or ....?
Do you make sure your clothing isn't a mix of cotton & wool, or flax & silk, or flax & wool and cotton or.....?
Unless you are a farmer of course, -you won't have to worry about harvesting.
You don't understand Dmmichgood. You could say if I have to love my neighbor then I can't eat shellfish. Both, after all, are part of the Law, no? From our websiteIn the OT Jews were bound by the "Law of Moses." This Law (also called a Covenant) was firstly composed of the Commandments, such as the prohibition on murder, stealing and adultery.1 Secondly, there were the Ordinances, such as the Tabernacle, the Holy Days, the Levitical Offerings, and role of the priesthood. And thirdly, there were the Judgements, covering legal issues such as slavery; taxation, divorce and inheritance (with secondary issues such as diet, sanitation, military service and even agricultural practices.) The books of Exodus;2 Deuteronomy3 and Leviticus cover these.So eating shellfish is not a moral commandment, nor do we live under the Ordinances or Judgements of the OT. This shellfish argument is boilerplate stuff for the mockers and scorners of the bible. The bible's subtlety and nuances are lost on such people.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 22:35:51 GMT -5
I reckon that part two and three of Coming Next is just wishful thinking on your part Bert. I don't wish them, and you know that. But I am old enough to remember when people in the 1960's said that homosexuals will never be able to marry because that's "extreme." And I remember people back then saying they are okay with marijuana, and accepting it doesn't mean people will shift to harder drugs.
We have this problem of a - not seeing the next step in liberal "progress." b - when that next step is here we all amazed to think people oppose it c - we forget (deny) we opposed that issue, too.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 23, 2015 23:30:25 GMT -5
You may be old enough Bert but you have not learnt in all those years of yours to figure what is politically palatable or expediant. Our political masters think they have got this sussed and most times they read the public well. Sometimes they don't, granted. Your Mr Abbott in particular must take the prize for being the Pratt of the decade if not the century. I remember in the 1980's here in NZ that the Homosexual Law Reform bill was before parliament and was eventually passed. Many railed against it and suggested it meant the end of the world. As I pointed out to one elderly gent who was a bastion of the church that making something legal did not make something compulsory. The end of the world is no closer now than it was then.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 0:53:06 GMT -5
1960's Swinging, group and casual sex, living together Ireland 1, God 0 1995 legalising of divorce Ireland 1, God 0 2013 legalizing of abortion Ireland 1, God 0 Coming nextDecriminalizing of narcotics Ireland 1, God 0 Legalization of polygamy, polyamory, polyandry etc.. Ireland 1, God 0 Decriminalizing of child porn. Ireland 1, God 0 Burning or pulling down the churches Ireland 1, God 0 Ireland is on a winning streak.Another classic post Bert. I think sometimes your participation here impedes your education rather than enhances it. I hardly know where to start. First Ireland did not experience the 1960's sexual revolution which you appear to be referring to. In fact contraception was illegal in Ireland right up until 1980. Hardly the basis for sexual liberation don't you think. Don't mix Ireland up with England just because you live in New Zealand. Given that the legalisation of the things you refer to happened in England a lot earlier (divorce was legislated for in England in 1937 and abortion in 1967) and the things which you predict coming to pass certainly didn't happen there, what leads you to conclude that they will happen in Ireland? Anyone with any knowledge of the UK over the last few years will be aware that the attitude to child pornography has gone completely the opposite direction to the one you are suggesting. So what is it then that leads you to conclude that legalising abortion, divorce or same sex marriage will lead to the decriminalisation of child pornography .... or indeed the legalisation of polygamy or the burning of churches? You're going to have to spell this one out I'm afraid. Matt10
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 24, 2015 1:02:11 GMT -5
Matt, Bert lives in hope.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 1:06:22 GMT -5
God gave man a free will so no God is not dead. I really don't think this is a logical conclusion. Indeed one wonders how you could possibly think it was. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 1:12:19 GMT -5
Quote - "Given that the legalisation of the things you refer to happened in England a lot earlier (divorce was legislated for in England in 1937 and abortion in 1967) and the things which you predict coming to pass certainly didn't happen there, what leads you to conclude that they will happen in Ireland?"
Because they have already happened. Doesn't matter if Ireland is "slow" to "progress" -- it still "progresses" at the same rate of change as any other Western country. The issue with child porn is that we are less tolerant of it in official situations, but becoming less so for the private sphere. Indeed, kiddie porn is now a three billion dollar industry - one of the fastest growing areas of the internet.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on May 24, 2015 1:14:23 GMT -5
God gave man a free will so no God is not dead. I really don't think this is a logical conclusion. Indeed one wonders how you could possibly think it was. Matt10 It sounds something like "My father gave me my blue eyes, therefore my father is not dead.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 1:40:50 GMT -5
Quote - "Given that the legalisation of the things you refer to happened in England a lot earlier (divorce was legislated for in England in 1937 and abortion in 1967) and the things which you predict coming to pass certainly didn't happen there, what leads you to conclude that they will happen in Ireland?" Because they have already happened. Doesn't matter if Ireland is "slow" to "progress" -- it still "progresses" at the same rate of change as any other Western country. The issue with child porn is that we are less tolerant of it in official situations, but becoming less so for the private sphere. Indeed, kiddie porn is now a three billion dollar industry - one of the fastest growing areas of the internet. No, Bert, they haven't happened. None of the things you have predicted would happen have happened, most notably the decriminalisation of child porn. Claiming that they have happened in a bid to save face leaves you looking even more foolish than before. Matt10.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 2:00:47 GMT -5
God's words and law of His kingdom on earth and on the Judgment Day1) Old Testament: Genesis 19: 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men/angels who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion.2) New Testament: Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. I Cor. 6:9-11 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 3) Revelation 21:7-8 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Nathan, We all know what the bible says about these things so why post them here? Do you think posting these are going to persuade anyone of anything? A large number of the people here who are likely to disagree with you don't believe in the bible anyway while those who do believe in the bible are likely to already agree with you. So what is the point? You're not a man of pointlessness are you? We have spoken before about your experience of the work and your capacity to bring a perspective to these debates that almost no one else has. The issue here is how the 2x2 workers might deal with the same sex marriage scenario outlined in the original post. Based on your experience of the work what do you think? You must have more to contribute here than merely quoting words from a book which you think support your beliefs while ignoring those that don't? Matt10
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 2:15:08 GMT -5
Of course the big question for us is that if a legally married same sex couple attend a 2x2 mission in Ireland next year and feel moved to 'profess' what will the official 2x2 position on this be? Will they be accepted into the 2x2 fold as they are or will they be required to divorce prior to being baptised? Will they be allowed to remain married but required to take a vow of celibacy? Will they be prevented from 'professing' altogether and therefore condemned to a lost eternity? Perhaps this is an issue that 2x2 Workers participating on the board will be best placed to advise upon or, if unable to advise, will be well placed to obtain the views of their Irish co-workers on. Does the 2x2 church have a policy on same sex married couples wanting to profess or will they just make it up as they go along? Matt10 Ask your own resident expert on all things 2x2: Irvine Grey
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 2:23:43 GMT -5
Of course the big question for us is that if a legally married same sex couple attend a 2x2 mission in Ireland next year and feel moved to 'profess' what will the official 2x2 position on this be? Will they be accepted into the 2x2 fold as they are or will they be required to divorce prior to being baptised? Will they be allowed to remain married but required to take a vow of celibacy? Will they be prevented from 'professing' altogether and therefore condemned to a lost eternity? Perhaps this is an issue that 2x2 Workers participating on the board will be best placed to advise upon or, if unable to advise, will be well placed to obtain the views of their Irish co-workers on. Does the 2x2 church have a policy on same sex married couples wanting to profess or will they just make it up as they go along? Matt10 Ask your own resident expert on all things 2x2: Irvine Grey Of all the responses here, this is perhaps both the silliest and the wittiest. Matt10
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 3:18:52 GMT -5
Yes, it's hard to believe. I don't know your age, but if I had asked you thirty years ago would homosexuals gain the right to marry you would said two things (on the basis you are an average person.) 1 - no, never 2 - it's an obscene thought.
In 1900 the average person thought the same about feminism. Takes about 50 years to change people's point of view.
ps what date would you give the wholesale decriminalization of narcotics to take place in Ireland?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on May 24, 2015 3:40:25 GMT -5
I reckon that part two and three of Coming Next is just wishful thinking on your part Bert. I don't wish them, and you know that. But I am old enough to remember when people inthe 1960's said that homosexuals will never be able to marry because that's "extreme." And I remember people back then saying they are okay with marijuana, and accepting it doesn't mean people will shift to harder drugs.
We have this problem of a - not seeing the next step in liberal "progress." b - when that next step is here we all amazed to think people oppose it c - we forget (deny) we opposed that issue, too. Allowing homosexuals to marry, Bert, is human rights progress
Of course, indications from your numerous posts certainly suggest that you are against human rights for just about everyone except perhaps Christians.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on May 24, 2015 4:07:04 GMT -5
I don't wish them, and you know that. But I am old enough to remember when people inthe 1960's said that homosexuals will never be able to marry because that's "extreme." And I remember people back then saying they are okay with marijuana, and accepting it doesn't mean people will shift to harder drugs.
We have this problem of a - not seeing the next step in liberal "progress." b - when that next step is here we all amazed to think people oppose it c - we forget (deny) we opposed that issue, too. Allowing homosexuals to marry, Bert, is human rights progress
Of course, indications from your numerous posts certainly suggest that you are against human rights for just about everyone except perhaps Christians.
It might be human rights, but it's not right by God! I'm not against the gay people, but it says in the bible that the act is wrong. I would never treat anyone gay any different to how I would treat anyone else I meet. But it does say in the bible that a man shouldn't sleep with a man and a woman shouldn't sleep with a woman. And if a religion believes in God, then they shouldn't be allowing gay marriage. If people don't believe in God, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to them anyway! They won't be bothered about being married will they?
|
|