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Post by bubbles on May 20, 2015 5:20:23 GMT -5
I suspect there was more CSA when women and girls dressed like Mother Hubbard. The key to fixing the CSA problem is education. Kids need to know that they can squeal whenever they feel uncomfortable. That their parents and trusted adults will listen and not punish them. Everyone needs to understand that CSA is a criminal matter - not a church matter. Victims need to know that the church will not think less of them for reporting abuse. Yes - and there a lot of young boys abused by those in positions of power and authority. I wonder what skirt they are wearing and how short it is? The workers pet hate were the tight trousers young men wore. Following fashion. It makes you think doesnt it? It seems to me that someone had issues with too much smooth skin too tight a garment maybe revealing muscles they no longer had legs they no longer had. This topic gets me because young people were targeted made to feel they werent good enough. Their choices were wrong. When wanting to be fashionable instead of froudy..attractive instead of dull. I dont believe it had anything to do with scripture. Maybe we turned them on. I know that is blatant. Im sorry if it offends anyone. Knowing what we know now. Im suspicious of the way they thundered and picked on the young ones @convention. Get this they complained no movies no dances no car racing. Dont mix with the world. We could have evenings. Go to dinner. Go to hot pools. BBQs. That was about it. No sports.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2015 6:04:21 GMT -5
Yes - and there a lot of young boys abused by those in positions of power and authority. I wonder what skirt they are wearing and how short it is? The workers pet hate were the tight trousers young men wore. Following fashion. It makes you think doesnt it? It seems to me that someone had issues with too much smooth skin too tight a garment maybe revealing muscles they no longer had legs they no longer had. This topic gets me because young people were targeted made to feel they werent good enough. Their choices were wrong. When wanting to be fashionable instead of froudy. .attractive instead of dull. I dont believe it had anything to do with scripture. Maybe we turned them on. I know that is blatant. Im sorry if it offends anyone. Knowing what we know now. Im suspicious of the way they thundered and picked on the young ones @convention. Get this they complained no movies no dances no car racing. Dont mix with the world. We could have evenings. Go to dinner. Go to hot pools. BBQs. That was about it. No sports. Bubbles, I'm quite sure that was part of the reason! That and jealousy that other men were able to marry you & they couldn't.
Although people often aren't aware that is the actual reason . They have sublimated the real reasons.
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Post by bubbles on May 20, 2015 6:35:27 GMT -5
D we were young youth. Full of life and vibrance. Our futures ahead of us. These people claim to be apostles. What they should have done was gather us up. Nurture us. Do things with us that they thought were acceptable youth activities, guiding with love and acceptance. Teaching us biblical principles and building relationship and most importantly encouraging us in our most holy faith. In other words mentoring us.
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 8:41:27 GMT -5
So wally, let's say you were walking down the street one day and some young girl (20yr old) looked sideways at you, and she just happened to be wearing a tank top and cut off denim shorts, if you had the 'urge' would you just drag her round to the nearest alley way & rape her? there are men that will do that so its best to be aware of it before something happens... Do you have any data at all to back up your claim? Do you think rape is about sex?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 16:22:10 GMT -5
there are men that will do that so its best to be aware of it before something happens... What about YOU Wally. Are YOU one of them? if I were I would be in jail don't you think? or do you think I am writing from a jail cell?
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Post by blacksheep on May 20, 2015 16:30:20 GMT -5
This reminds me of my motherinlaw telling my father my mini skirts got me pregnant!! How daft is that. "Woman with skirt around waist can run faster than man with pants around ankles!"
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 17:01:53 GMT -5
This doesn't excuse those committing the crimes, it's just an acknowledgement that you MIGHT have to change your preferred behavior due to the misdeeds of others. Is there any research that suggests that a target who is dressed provocatively has a greater chance of sexual assault? The research I have seen points to the opposite conclusion - dressing provocatively does not signify submissiveness but is an indication of confidence and assertiveness, not what the rapist is looking for. Children are wearing short skirts? The males as well?
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Post by bubbles on May 20, 2015 19:18:39 GMT -5
This reminds me of my motherinlaw telling my father my mini skirts got me pregnant!! How daft is that. "Woman with skirt around waist can run faster than man with pants around ankles!" Haha..that is a funny sight. Had to do that once or twice.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2015 19:18:48 GMT -5
This has often been the excuse for some men, perhaps men like yourself? Those type of men make women responsible for men's actions instead of holding themselves responsible for their own actions.
Actually it is a terribly disparaging accusation toward men! I'm sure most men would resent that accusation and they would be right in doing so!
Only a few men might have that attitude! In fact, I have never known any man like that!
While I disagree with basically the entire tone of Wally's "well what do you expect?" argument, I will agree with him in one aspect: It's better to be safe (even when you SHOULDN'T HAVE TO) than sorry. People should be able to walk down any street in the U.S. and not have to worry about being mugged, robbed, hit by a stray bullet, etc. I mean, after all, it's pretty disparaging to my fellow citizens if I can't at least expect that common decency from them, right? But we all know that streets do exist that we shouldn't walk down, particularly alone, particularly at certain times of night. The danger is there, even though it rightfully shouldn't be, and it's wise to take steps to prevent/minimize your vulnerability. This doesn't excuse those committing the crimes, it's just an acknowledgement that you MIGHT have to change your preferred behavior due to the misdeeds of others. Now that's a big difference from a short skirt at convention leading to CSA (I'd say they only have to worry about getting the stink-eye from the older women in the floor-length burlap skirts), but same train of thought. If we know there are bad people out there (I'd like to think convention is full of well-meaning folk that present no danger), it's best to avoid being around and/or provoking them if you are able. Rape is about power. Also, little boys and very young girls that aren't showing a lot of 'skin', get raped too. Nothing to do with what they are wearing. I do, however, agree that one does need to be aware of there surroundings and act accordingly. As the song goes, if you're in a Mexican bar it's likely not wise to pull out a huge wad of money when paying the bartender!
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Post by bubbles on May 20, 2015 19:21:45 GMT -5
This doesn't excuse those committing the crimes, it's just an acknowledgement that you MIGHT have to change your preferred behavior due to the misdeeds of others. Is there any research that suggests that a target who is dressed provocatively has a greater chance of sexual assault? The research I have seen points to the opposite conclusion - dressing provocatively does not signify submissiveness but is an indication of confidence and assertiveness, not what the rapist is looking for. Ratz You make a good point. I think that females who are timid introverted quiet easily intimidated types are a stronger target. Children are wearing short skirts? The males as well?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2015 19:28:59 GMT -5
This has often been the excuse for some men, perhaps men like yourself? Those type of men make women responsible for men's actions instead of holding themselves responsible for their own actions.
Actually it is a terribly disparaging accusation toward men! I'm sure most men would resent that accusation and they would be right in doing so!
Only a few men might have that attitude! In fact, I have never known any man like that!
While I disagree with basically the entire tone of Wally's "well what do you expect?" argument, I will agree with him in one aspect: It's better to be safe (even when you SHOULDN'T HAVE TO) than sorry. People should be able to walk down any street in the U.S. and not have to worry about being mugged, robbed, hit by a stray bullet, etc. I mean, after all, it's pretty disparaging to my fellow citizens if I can't at least expect that common decency from them, right? But we all know that streets do exist that we shouldn't walk down, particularly alone, particularly at certain times of night. The danger is there, even though it rightfully shouldn't be, and it's wise to take steps to prevent/minimize your vulnerability. This doesn't excuse those committing the crimes, it's just an acknowledgement that you MIGHT have to change your preferred behavior due to the misdeeds of others. Now that's a big difference from a short skirt at convention leading to CSA (I'd say they only have to worry about getting the stink-eye from the older women in the floor-length burlap skirts), but same train of thought. If we know there are bad people out there (I'd like to think convention is full of well-meaning folk that present no danger), it's best to avoid being around and/or provoking them if you are able. This has often been the excuse for some men, perhaps men like yourself? Those type of men make women responsible for men's actions instead of holding themselves responsible for their own actions.
Actually it is a terribly disparaging accusation toward men! I'm sure most men would resent that accusation and they would be right in doing so!
Only a few men might have that attitude! In fact, I have never known any man like that!
While I disagree with basically the entire tone of Wally's "well what do you expect?" argument, I will agree with him in one aspect: It's better to be safe (even when you SHOULDN'T HAVE TO) than sorry. People should be able to walk down any street in the U.S. and not have to worry about being mugged, robbed, hit by a stray bullet, etc. I mean, after all, it's pretty disparaging to my fellow citizens if I can't at least expect that common decency from them, right? But we all know that streets do exist that we shouldn't walk down, particularly alone, particularly at certain times of night. The danger is there, even though it rightfully shouldn't be, and it's wise to take steps to prevent/minimize your vulnerability. This doesn't excuse those committing the crimes, it's just an acknowledgement that you MIGHT have to change your preferred behavior due to the misdeeds of others. Now that's a big difference from a short skirt at convention leading to CSA (I'd say they only have to worry about getting the stink-eye from the older women in the floor-length burlap skirts), but same train of thought. If we know there are bad people out there (I'd like to think convention is full of well-meaning folk that present no danger), it's best to avoid being around and/or provoking them if you are able. "But we all know that streets do exist that we shouldn't walk down, particularly alone, particularly at certain times of night. The danger is there, even though it rightfully shouldn't be, and it's wise to take steps to prevent/minimize your vulnerability."
That is absolutely correct! But that applies to ALL people; -not just women.
The argument that a woman who is raped is the one at fault because she "walked down a dark street late at night" is like saying that a man who was robbed is the one at fault because he "walked down a dark street late at night. "
The statement about women was used for years to keep a woman "in her place," -not free to get around in public alone in the same way that men were able to do.
Fact is, one of my best friends was going home late at night because she had left the restaurant where she worked a late shift. Her husband was at home taking care of their children so he couldn't leave them to go bring her home. She was raped & injured so severely that she needed to go to the hospital.
In spite of the injury, she became pregnant from the rape. This was many years ago before abortion became legal, so of course no legitimate doctor dared risk his reputation to do an abortion. She had to go to the typical "back alley" abortionist of that time risking bleeding to death or from an infection.
She had a reason, a good reason, for "walking down a dark street late at night."
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2015 19:33:18 GMT -5
"Woman with skirt around waist can run faster than man with pants around ankles!" Haha..that is a funny sight. Had to do that once or twice. "Woman with skirt around waist can run faster than man with pants around ankles!"
Did you think that it was funny at the time you had to do it, bubbles?
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Post by rational on May 20, 2015 20:36:03 GMT -5
Rape is about power. Also, little boys and very young girls that aren't showing a lot of 'skin', get raped too. Nothing to do with what they are wearing. I do, however, agree that one does need to be aware of there surroundings and act accordingly. As the song goes, if you're in a Mexican bar it's likely not wise to pull out a huge wad of money when paying the bartender! Rape, like child sexual abuse, covers too broad an area to be addressed with a single statement. Rathus, Nevid, and Fichner-Rathus ( Human sexuality in a world of diversity) give four motivations for rape. Sexual gratification, anger rape, power rape, and sadistic rape. Sexual gratification is often the motivation behind acquaintance rape (date rape). The offender wants to progress farther than the target. Anger rape is generally not premeditated, but it is frequently violent and spurred by resentment toward women. Power rape is spurred by the need to control and dominate. Sadistic rape is often premeditated and ritualized. Victims are often subjected to degradation, mutilation, torture, or murder. Not a lot of data to show that provocative dress is a contributing factor of rape.
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Post by bubbles on May 21, 2015 3:57:32 GMT -5
Haha..that is a funny sight. Had to do that once or twice. "Woman with skirt around waist can run faster than man with pants around ankles!"
Did you think that it was funny at the time you had to do it, bubbles?
No way. In fact I couldnt run fast enough. Turning a corner when you are puffed out to discover a bloke exposing himself on the right and a hill to climb on the left wasnt good either. Adrenalin kicked in! Screaming our lungs out we took off to find the main rd.
It got worse we flagged down a car for a ride back to the nurses home the driver was a young lad. The police wanted to know why there was a pair of jocks on the floor of the car. Our rescuer was on his way home from Judo. The police the matron and doctor who interviewed us had an interesting night.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2015 11:26:40 GMT -5
Rape is about power. Also, little boys and very young girls that aren't showing a lot of 'skin', get raped too. Nothing to do with what they are wearing. I do, however, agree that one does need to be aware of there surroundings and act accordingly. As the song goes, if you're in a Mexican bar it's likely not wise to pull out a huge wad of money when paying the bartender! Rape, like child sexual abuse, covers too broad an area to be addressed with a single statement. Rathus, Nevid, and Fichner-Rathus ( Human sexuality in a world of diversity) give four motivations for rape. Sexual gratification, anger rape, power rape, and sadistic rape. Sexual gratification is often the motivation behind acquaintance rape (date rape). The offender wants to progress farther than the target. Anger rape is generally not premeditated, but it is frequently violent and spurred by resentment toward women. Power rape is spurred by the need to control and dominate. Sadistic rape is often premeditated and ritualized. Victims are often subjected to degradation, mutilation, torture, or murder. Not a lot of data to show that provocative dress is a contributing factor of rape. Yes you're right, one statement does not define it.
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 14:13:25 GMT -5
Research? I don't know. But I did figure you'd ask that question, since you were casing Wally on it. Not worth looking it up? Well, thanks.Yes, they select someone to go home with and hope it leads to sex. Do you really believe though, that it is the type of dress that determines who the male will seek to take home? Or is it the woman who flirts even though dressed in sackcloth?Generally known as acquaintance rape. Again, was the dress part of this or was it the result of the male looking for more than the female was willing to deliver?I don't think you have proved your premise. The male, who will potentially become a criminal, did not commit the rape because of the way the woman was dressed. The aggravating factor was being rebuffed by the woman. From above: Rathus, Nevid, and Fichner-Rathus (Human sexuality in a world of diversity) give four motivations for rape. Sexual gratification, anger rape, power rape, and sadistic rape. Sexual gratification is often the motivation behind acquaintance rape (date rape). The offender wants to progress farther than the target. Anger rape is generally not premeditated, but it is frequently violent and spurred by resentment toward women. Power rape is spurred by the need to control and dominate. Sadistic rape is often premeditated and ritualized. Victims are often subjected to degradation, mutilation, torture, or murder.
Not a lot of data to show that provocative dress is a contributing factor of rape. I see.All that from the Sports Page? What percentage of women raped, according to the Sports Page, were the ones who 'flaunt it' vs. the ones who were the church basement ladies? And they do this because the woman is dressed provocatively? I know that is what you are saying and most likely what you believe. Research shows that most convicted rapists don’t remember what their victim was wearing. Less than 5% of rape victims were engaging in what could be called provocative behavior. Research shows rapists choose victims based on how vulnerable they seem. Will they go along or will they make a fuss? There is no actual evidence that rapists choose their victims because of how sexy or sexual they think the victims are.
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Post by Gene on May 22, 2015 16:19:07 GMT -5
Every time I see the title to this thread I want to go put some short ribs on the grill. Or skirt steaks.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 16:59:55 GMT -5
Every time I see the title to this thread I want to go put some short ribs on the grill. Or skirt steaks. hmmm I wonder what the Freudian equivalent of that would be!?
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Post by Gene on May 22, 2015 18:45:53 GMT -5
Every time I see the title to this thread I want to go put some short ribs on the grill. Or skirt steaks. hmmm I wonder what the Freudian equivalent of that would be!? Ooh! Great question! I'll ask my shrink: Rats, what do you think? Freudian interpretation?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 19:19:56 GMT -5
Gene, it might be better to put meat balls on the grill. Ouch!!!!
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Post by Gene on May 22, 2015 19:21:00 GMT -5
Gene, it might be better to put meat balls on the grill. Ouch!!!! I prefer to grill Rats at the moment
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 6:03:42 GMT -5
Every time I see the title to this thread I want to go put some short ribs on the grill. Or skirt steaks. If you can get them, go with hanger steaks instead of skirt stakes. 1) I believe they taste better and 2) it will help reduce the possibility of anyone becoming aroused when reading about the success you had while cooking and eating them. Unfortunately, hanger steaks are hard to find and the butcher, and I use that term loosely, will try to tell you skirt steaks are the same thing.
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 8:53:08 GMT -5
hmmm I wonder what the Freudian equivalent of that would be!? Ooh! Great question! I'll ask my shrink: Rats, what do you think? Freudian interpretation? Closet heterosexual?
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 9:11:10 GMT -5
No, not really worth looking up for me. In no way am I downplaying the importance of the subject, but for me this discussion board is more of a diversion from work than it is a thesis paper. Probably true for many, including myself, who post here. If dressing in sackcloth and ashes would help I would be in agreement. But the data available simpy does not support that premise. Perhaps. But if a provocatively dressed model came up to the sports figure I doubt that the man would rape her because of what she was wearing.That is right. How does the rape part figure into this?However, it is not the dress that was the reason for the rape, it was the fact the man wanted more than the woman wanted to deliver. Using your logic you could also say that since the woman drove to the club and was therefore available to be escorted home by the man that the car she drove at least partly responsible. This is another one of those things like feeling guilty. No one can make you feel guilty, ignorant, or naive. People do that all by themselves. I post what I believe to be true and usually can provide some data to support my convictions. Anyone is free to do the same.They may or may not but in general people are not raped because they dressed provocativly or flirted. They are raped because the man failed to get what he wanted.And some of them even want to have sex. But, if surveyed, very few want to be raped.And I am sure that men leap to the wrong conclusions at times and it does not end well. It sounds like you are saying that any factor that brings a woman into the vicinity of a male who finds them attractive and asks them to accompany them home is a factor contributing to a subsequent rape of the woman. Sort of like the butterfly effect.
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Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 10:11:53 GMT -5
Ooh! Great question! I'll ask my shrink: Rats, what do you think? Freudian interpretation? Closet heterosexual? Oh great. You just outed me. Thanks a lot. There goes my sterling reputation.
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Post by rational on May 23, 2015 10:27:09 GMT -5
Oh great. You just outed me. Thanks a lot. There goes my sterling reputation. So are those red patent leather pumps up for grabs?
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Post by snow on May 23, 2015 10:47:40 GMT -5
Oh great. You just outed me. Thanks a lot. There goes my sterling reputation. My question was an innocent one, honest!! ... Trust Rational to take a step up!
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Post by Gene on May 23, 2015 11:21:56 GMT -5
Oh great. You just outed me. Thanks a lot. There goes my sterling reputation. So are those red patent leather pumps up for grabs? Take my dignity. Take my reputation. Take my first-born. But touch my red patent leather pumps and you shall feel the wrath of my long, red, well-manicured nails, bee-atch.
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