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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 2:51:05 GMT -5
are you saying i have done something unto one of my brethren? Neighbor, virgo. Jesus said "neighbor"
yea so?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 2:54:55 GMT -5
are you saying i have done something unto one of my brethren? Neighbor, virgo. Jesus said "neighbor"
just to remind you this is the verse that was posted Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. but now the goal posts have been changed to this without my question being answered remember what Jesus said when a man asked him "who is my neighbour"?
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 4:26:28 GMT -5
Virgo, the goal posts have not moved.
Asking "who is my brother?" is the same as asking "who is my neighbour?"
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elle
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Post by elle on May 18, 2015 7:08:02 GMT -5
oops you're right. Its not David S but Graeme D. Don't know either of them, but that's no excuse for misinformation! Will go back and edit Thanks Elle - I had heard this but was waiting for a professing person to make it known! The changes likely won't happen until after convention, November/ December. Perhaps that why there is not yet a lot of talk about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 16:51:52 GMT -5
Virgo, the goal posts have not moved. Asking "who is my brother?" is the same as asking "who is my neighbour?" so your brother to you is just like someone on the street? who were the neighbours in Jesus day? who were His brethren in His day?
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 17:20:18 GMT -5
Virgo, the goal posts have not moved. Asking "who is my brother?" is the same as asking "who is my neighbour?" so your brother to you is just like someone on the street? who were the neighbours in Jesus day? who were His brethren in His day? Actually yes, my brother is just like someone on the street. Do you think it's OK to be unkind to someone you don't deem to be your "brother"?
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 17:23:29 GMT -5
so your brother to you is just like someone on the street? who were the neighbours in Jesus day? who were His brethren in His day? Actually yes, my brother is just like someone on the street. Do you think it's OK to be unkind to someone you don't deem to be your "brother"? and like i asked which you seem unable to answer[ are you saying i have done something unto one of my brethren?]
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 17:46:36 GMT -5
Actually yes, my brother is just like someone on the street. Do you think it's OK to be unkind to someone you don't deem to be your "brother"? and like i asked which you seem unable to answer[ are you saying i have done something unto one of my brethren?] I think you were unnecessarily unkind to Curly, but it's entirely up to you how you feel about that. It may be that you intended your post to be light hearted humor, but Curly didn't see it that way. Bullying, even if it be the type of smartarse comments the like of you made to me when I was professing is never a wink and smilie face matter. it's about time you got a life misery guts
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 18:02:06 GMT -5
and like i asked which you seem unable to answer[ are you saying i have done something unto one of my brethren?] I think you were unnecessarily unkind to Curly, but it's entirely up to you how you feel about that. It may be that you intended your post to be light hearted humor, but Curly didn't see it that way. it's about time you got a life misery guts if it's up to me why keep harping on about it? haven't you got something else to do
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Post by fixit on May 18, 2015 18:19:29 GMT -5
I think you were unnecessarily unkind to Curly, but it's entirely up to you how you feel about that. It may be that you intended your post to be light hearted humor, but Curly didn't see it that way. if it's up to me why keep harping on about it? haven't you got something else to do I've only been responding to your posts. Yes, I do have other things I can be doing so if it's OK with you I'll make this my last post on the subject.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 23, 2015 6:05:41 GMT -5
Two other workers tried hard to address the issue during the day with Ian Taylor publicly stating that salvation was a gift of grace from God. During that year at a NSW convention we were told that Ephesians 2: 8-9 were the favourite verses of Satan. Hi Ross, thanks for the run down on events. Was surprised to see the statement above (underlined) from Ian. I know a number of people who have specifically corresponded with Ian over the years on this very issue, and he has, to my knowledge, strenuously denied this view of the gospel. Was this a placating statement with many provisos then attached? Curious to hear what will happen to Clyde when/if Alan takes over. Will he continue preaching? Clyde is currently here in Canberra, do you know if Alan is coming to Canberra to replace him?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 24, 2015 18:09:18 GMT -5
Hi Ross, thanks for the run down on events. Was surprised to see the statement above (underlined) from Ian. I know a number of people who have specifically corresponded with Ian over the years on this very issue, and he has, to my knowledge, strenuously denied this view of the gospel. Was this a placating statement with many provisos then attached? Curious to hear what will happen to Clyde when/if Alan takes over. Will he continue preaching? Clyde is currently here in Canberra, do you know if Alan is coming to Canberra to replace him? There weren't too many strings attached at that Special Meetings in Ian's preaching - I think he was trying to distance himself from Alan Kitto's "works based" sermon earlier in the day. The division was there for all to see - although likely only a small percentage of people noticed it. In subsequent meetings that Ian had with others in Sydney it was clear that there were many steps that a person had to take to be saved - profess through a worker, baptised by a worker etc. Salvation was a gift of grace with special delivery by the workers to those whom they considered worthy to receive it. ....and then we were told that we should not have any assurance of salvation in this life....but the workers did because they were workers. No, in case you are wondering we didn't start asking for application forms on how to become workers so we could be sure of our salvation On the NSW front, I only know what I'm told.... I think Ellie said that the changeover from Clyde to Alan is likely to occur later this year. I imagine Clyde will keep preaching while he is able. He spoke at Dulcie Murray's funeral last Friday week. Jo said it almost impossible to hear because of a poor quality sound system and airlines going overhead but he is clearly able to speak. Of course, they keep the same number of male workers because of Graeme Dalton's move to South Australia. South Australia understandably may not like this but they seem pretty much now led and heavily influenced by New South Wales workers. Yep, all that makes sense. All still on the same page, I'd say. Living Witness Doctrine is alive and well.
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 20:26:28 GMT -5
Jo said it almost impossible to hear because of a poor quality sound system and airlines going overhead but he is clearly able to speak. Just trying to picture air lines overhead???
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Post by fred on May 31, 2015 1:21:04 GMT -5
Two other workers tried hard to address the issue during the day with Ian Taylor publicly stating that salvation was a gift of grace from God. During that year at a NSW convention we were told that Ephesians 2: 8-9 were the favourite verses of Satan. Hi Ross, thanks for the run down on events. Was surprised to see the statement above (underlined) from Ian. I know a number of people who have specifically corresponded with Ian over the years on this very issue, and he has, to my knowledge, strenuously denied this view of the gospel. Was this a placating statement with many provisos then attached? Curious to hear what will happen to Clyde when/if Alan takes over. Will he continue preaching? Clyde is currently here in Canberra, do you know if Alan is coming to Canberra to replace him? Yes Elizabeth, you would need to have listened to Ian a bit more to know what he means. The last two times he has made home visits and has spoken at convention his theme was much the same. He used the word "redemption" and this may be where he understands the 'free gift' to be. To put it in a nutshell, he said that our redemption was like a ticket to enter the race (not his words), but it is not until life's end that we will know if we have made it. He probably would not agree with salvation by works (I've not asked) but that is essentially what he preaches. AK is very much the 'old time' worker and has probably been promoted above DS for that reason. My experiences with DS is that he is a real pastor - kind, understanding, more liberal and inclusive.
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Post by Greg on May 31, 2015 20:14:17 GMT -5
What of the sheep and goats who did not know they were or were not right?
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Post by fred on Jun 1, 2015 7:26:17 GMT -5
What has interested me (and many who have left) for the last 15 or so years is if God has promised to justify or declare us completely innocent when we turn to Him, why do 2x2 folk hesitate to accept His gift of grace? (Fred I am not including you in this category because I know you get it completely). Is it because they doubt God's complete sovereignty or they want to stay in bondage and guilt or the workers want the people to believe they need to earn their salvation. Interested in your thoughts... [/quote] My thoughts?...... When your paradigm is based on the belief that you have the only true way and it is from the beginning there is a reluctance to entertain change. When even minor things have been changed in the past there always have been rumblings about these being end of times, a sense of decay of the true things. I believe this is why change is too difficult, this is why those who are hardliners seem to rise to the top. What I don't understand is how we arrived at certain beliefs, when the first workers were more mainstream in their beliefs. I have always detected a striving for a difference, like Clyde's catchcry "we don't want to be like the world", so that if that's what they believe then we'll go for something a bit different. Not sure that this makes much sense......
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Post by mdm on Jun 1, 2015 10:07:43 GMT -5
Yes Elizabeth, you would need to have listened to Ian a bit more to know what he means. The last two times he has made home visits and has spoken at convention his theme was much the same. He used the word "redemption" and this may be where he understands the 'free gift' to be. To put it in a nutshell, he said that our redemption was like a ticket to enter the race (not his words), but it is not until life's end that we will know if we have made it. He probably would not agree with salvation by works (I've not asked) but that is essentially what he preaches. AK is very much the 'old time' worker and has probably been promoted above DS for that reason. My experiences with DS is that he is a real pastor - kind, understanding, more liberal and inclusive. Thanks Fred - we were reminded again recently by folk who confirmed that this is what Ian preaches - redemption makes it possible but we don't know if "we have made it" until life's end. Unfortunately, it's very common teaching in the 2x2's. We were reminded yesterday in church of those wonderful verses in Acts 13: 39-39 at the end of Paul's sermon giving a concise summary of God's work in the world. "Therefore, let it be known to you, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is being proclaimed to you, and everyone who believes in Him is justified from everything that you could not be justified from through the law of Moses." If it is up to me or anyone to earn salvation then I simply can't do it - I or any of us may as well give up now. But through believing and trusting in the one who has died in our place we are justified from every sin and every burden. Not "will be justified". Sadly, justification is something that is not taught in the 2x2 church. It is such an important feature of Paul's teaching and in this passage Luke's writing. It is at the heart of the gospel and God's grace to us. What has interested me (and many who have left) for the last 15 or so years is if God has promised to justify or declare us completely innocent when we turn to Him, why do 2x2 folk hesitate to accept His gift of grace? (Fred I am not including you in this category because I know you get it completely). Is it because they doubt God's complete sovereignty or they want to stay in bondage and guilt or the workers want the people to believe they need to earn their salvation. Interested in your thoughts... I'm not Fred, but I'd like to quote George Walker: "The world can say that they got saved by reading the Bible, or got something direct from heaven, but just ask them to show you someone in the New Testament that got saved like that. This is the worst form of spiritual pride that has ever been known.
1 Corinthians 3:21 – Paul wanted to be looked on as a channel, not to be gloried in as a man. All the servants of God are ours to be a channel for us and to be a help to us regardless of how they preach to us." George Walker, PICTON CONVENTION June 23-25, 1950 www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/walker_notes.php#wherryFrom what I've seen in Eastern US, the gift of grace is dependant on professing. Pretty much anything is forgiven and overlooked, and mercy, forgiveness and grace apply as long as one belongs to the meetings and doesn't question the the system. Edited to add: "One woman asked, "Will the sins of the past, the time before I heard the truth, all be brought up on that day when I stand before the Lord?" I could give her a Bible answer for that. When we turned to God, he forgave us and the past he remembers no more. Then she asked, "What: about the sins since I began to serve the Lord?" I had a Bible answer for that. His blood cleanses from all sin. He is the propitiation for our sins. He made atonement to God and God loves to forgive." George Walker, Philadelphia Pennsylvania Special Meeting April 22, 1979
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Post by fixit on Jun 1, 2015 15:56:08 GMT -5
From your link Ross: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. Read more: www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html#ixzz3bqOHdW58+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This article accuses "goat" folks of having hearts that are not right with God, even if they perform acts of kindness and charity, because their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. I think the writer is missing the whole point of the parable. The "sheep" don't perform acts of kindness for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. They do it because it's in their nature to do it - they're not even aware that they're doing it. Below is a parable of a man who purposed to honor and worship God, but he didn't go home justified before God...
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Post by Admin on Jun 1, 2015 17:13:37 GMT -5
What has interested me (and many who have left) for the last 15 or so years is if God has promised to justify or declare us completely innocent when we turn to Him, why do 2x2 folk hesitate to accept His gift of grace? (Fred I am not including you in this category because I know you get it completely). Is it because they doubt God's complete sovereignty or they want to stay in bondage and guilt or the workers want the people to believe they need to earn their salvation. Interested in your thoughts... My thoughts?...... When your paradigm is based on the belief that you have the only true way and it is from the beginning there is a reluctance to entertain change. When even minor things have been changed in the past there always have been rumblings about these being end of times, a sense of decay of the true things. I believe this is why change is too difficult, this is why those who are hardliners seem to rise to the top. What I don't understand is how we arrived at certain beliefs, when the first workers were more mainstream in their beliefs. I have always detected a striving for a difference, like Clyde's catchcry "we don't want to be like the world", so that if that's what they believe then we'll go for something a bit different. Not sure that this makes much sense...... "What is the opposite of an open mind? You are stuck in one truth".
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 1, 2015 20:38:31 GMT -5
No !!!
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Post by fred on Jun 1, 2015 23:16:08 GMT -5
Having known AK, his family and his upbringing and his earlier days as a worker I would say he is likely to be a harder, more stubborn leader than CM. He is more likely to be more outspoken on issues whereas CM would say very little ( a redeeming feature!). To be fair AK has mellowed a little in latter years, but will be very serious and active about keeping things the same.
The short answer, a big NO.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 2, 2015 1:05:21 GMT -5
Having known AK, his family and his upbringing and his earlier days as a worker I would say he is likely to be a harder, more stubborn leader than CM. He is more likely to be more outspoken on issues whereas CM would say very little ( a redeeming feature!). To be fair AK has mellowed a little in latter years, but will be very serious and active about keeping things the same. The short answer, a big NO. Agree with you 100% Fred I remember when I was younger he was in our area he didn't have a lot of patience with children & noise ! But to be fair he did help out with our family when my Dad had a heart attack. Still old school I would say.
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