|
Post by fixit on Apr 30, 2015 21:33:36 GMT -5
NathanB, You are way off base as far as saying that only God can forgive sins. The Disciples (Workers) could/can forgive sins. According to you, that would make the Disciples equal to God. Read John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." There's also passages that speak of the Disciples (Workers) as having the authority to bind things in heaven, and things on earth. So, it it NOT only God Who has the power to forgive sins. I like this rendering:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 22:28:57 GMT -5
NathanB, You are way off base as far as saying that only God can forgive sins. The Disciples (Workers) could/can forgive sins. According to you, that would make the Disciples equal to God. Read John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." There's also passages that speak of the Disciples (Workers) as having the authority to bind things in heaven, and things on earth. So, it it NOT only God Who has the power to forgive sins. Misty can you clarify what you mean here ? The workers are NOT Disciples ! I think your getting confused you mean the workers are not apostles...anyone can be a disciple
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple_(Christianity)
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Apr 30, 2015 22:40:48 GMT -5
Yes Wally you are right I meant Apostles ! Thank you for that !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 23:08:10 GMT -5
I made a sweeping statement regarding the Apostle/Disciple connection. However, I do believe that Disciples/workers had/have power to forgive sins. I also believe believers can forgive one another. I made the statement to keep in in the context of what Jesus was doing in the verse. However, my point stands: NathanB said that only GOD can forgive sins. Jesus said that the Apostles could forgive sins in John 20:23. So, his premise that Jesus is God on the basis that he can forgive sins is not correct. If the Disciples could/can forgive sins, and if it's true that only God can forgive sins, then the Disciples would have to be God. We all know they are not God. They are human. Yet, they were given the authority to forgive sins. Now Nathan is saying that "The disciples can forgive sins because Jesus is Godhead and gave them that power. The disciples can't forgive sin in their own power or name but through Jesus authority." Yes, Jesus did have the authority to give the power of forgiveness to the Disciples (and to the Church in general). But, what Nathan is failing to point out and realize is that the Father gave Jesus the authority to forgive sins. Just as Jesus gave us the power; God gave Jesus the power. There's a chain of authority going on here: THE FATHER > JESUS > THE CHURCH. The facts don't jive with what NathanB said regarding "Only God can forgive sins." It's more accurate to say "Only God can give the authority to forgive sins." Jesus was GIVEN that authority from the Father, in the same way the Disciples were given that authority by Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on Apr 30, 2015 23:23:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on May 1, 2015 20:03:07 GMT -5
NathanB, You are way off base as far as saying that only God can forgive sins. The Disciples (Workers) could/can forgive sins. According to you, that would make the Disciples equal to God. Read John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." There's also passages that speak of the Disciples (Workers) as having the authority to bind things in heaven, and things on earth. So, it it NOT only God Who has the power to forgive sins. The disciples can forgive sins because Jesus is Godhead and gave them that power. The disciples can't forgive sin in their own power or name but through Jesus authority.And God even gives atheists the ability to forgive people who beat the crap out of them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 9:00:31 GMT -5
John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remitGod only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly, they are remitted unto them; in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see ( Mark 16:16 ) ( Luke 24:47 ) . On the other hand he signifies, that whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained: that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them. www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-20-23.html I understand your position, Natha. But, I disagree with you on this.
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on May 5, 2015 3:56:59 GMT -5
Read that verse again. There is the Holy Spirit and my human spirit. I am a person and the Spirit of God is another person. Spirit being or whatever you like to call it. (Not the spirit of Mary is another person but the Holy Spirit is another). Jesus comes and dwells within the believer (Christ within is your hope of glory). Is Mary (me) a person and Jesus another person? Yes. Is the Holy Spirit separate from my spirit yes. Do all humans have the Holy Spirit or is it something that comes to the believer when they accept Jesus? We all have a human spirit but the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within when we accept Christ. So God is a spirit and God's spirit is a separate person spirit? Why do you sing regularly a special hymn to the "Holy Spirit". Sounds very strange if it isn't a separate person/being/entity. Perhaps those who believe that the Father is only God might like to read many of the hymns they sing regularly and reflect on what they are singing. Next time that a professing person who believes this comes to the following words - and these hymns are but a mere selection in your hymn book - there are tens of others....all hymns which are based on the Bible. “My Saviour bids me sing His praise…clothed in His righteousness complete…to fall and worship at His feet” (#233) “In spirit and in truth, We all must worship Thee, Who gave Thyself a sacrifice and died to set us free.” (#243) “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) “Bowed at Thy throne of grace – Jesus my Lord…” (#265) “God forbid that I should glory, save in Jesus and His cross” (#293) “Singing songs of joy and praise for His great salvation…” (#360) “Thou art worthy, thou art worthy, blessed Jesus Lord of All” (#385) “Thou art worthy – to receive all strength and honour, adoration, praise and love” (#385) It creates a large problem for those who say they don't worship Jesus - you do every week and you sing about it! And if you do sing these verses heartily (as I'm sure you do) then why if you don't accept that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You are worshipping and bowing down at the feet of Jesus and at His throne of grace. You are worshipping the King of Kings (there's no higher rank than that!) as you sing correctly in many other hymns. But why? The Bible specifically commands that no-one be worshipped other than God alone. Yet you are worshipping the One every week that you don't believe is part of the Godhead. Seems like those who only believe that God is the Father need to stop singing myriads of hymns if you want to be true to what you believe.
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on May 5, 2015 4:01:14 GMT -5
Those who don't regard Jesus as part of the Godhead might reflect on why they sing the following hymns most weeks where Jesus is called King or Master or referred to as the One (note in a couple of hymns the Father is also referred to as King):
“Lord Help us lose our lives for Thee alone” (#4) “How Jesus wept, the King of glory…” (#7) “Glorious Lord and coming King” (#10) “Jesus only is our Master” (#10) “For Jesus reigns supreme” (#15) “Reign over me Lord Jesus, oh keep my heart Thy throne” (#15) “From heaven’s glory, from His radiant throne above” (#20) “To thee my all I bring – my Saviour and my King” (#26) The Kingdom of our Lord (referring to Jesus (#28) “To follow my Saviour and King” (#29) “We have found Him – King of Kings” (#30) “Friend if you are honest, yield your heart to God, Make the Christ your Master, choose the path He trod” (#35) “Blessed, blessed Jesus, He’s the One!” (#47) “The King of Kings – He’ll wash the stains of guilt away.” (#52) “The King of Glory…” (#53) “The King of Kings…Jesus, hail Him King and Lord etc…” (#55) “That I may crown Him the King of my heart..” (#62) “My heart will whisper Christ is all” (#64) “Come then sovereign King of Kinds, Lord of lords and Prince of Peace” (#70) “Now none but Christ can satisfy..” (#109) “When the King comes in…” (#138) “Room for Jesus, King of glory..” (#139) “Jesus my Saviour King” (#163) “I am trusting Thee Lord Jesus, Trusting only Thee…” (#165) “O think of the King of glory…” (#166) “I need no strength but Thine alone…” (#281) “Our daily source of peace is Christ alone, Dwelling within our hearts, upon the throne. To reign as King, His righteous sceptre sway…” (#316)
It's fascinating that you would call Jesus your King - in fact the King of Kings (all Biblical terms) but you only recognise the Father as King.
Why do you sing these hymns?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 6:10:29 GMT -5
Now, I am not always in agreement of how you show up here. But I think this is a very legitimate question. I wonder why they called Jesus "Lord" in so many places. Most often it is termed "God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ..." I wonder what the difference between God and Lord is - someone might look up the Hebrew. Both mean exactly the same and it was a way of Paul and others differentiating between the Father and the Son. Lord essentially means "boss" - one who has all power, authority and control. Sounds like the Father! Sounds like God! The Greek kurios: Lord, sir, master. The Greek despotes: A despot, master The Greek kurieuo: To be lord Mark 10:51 My master, my rabbi
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 6:14:38 GMT -5
So God is a spirit and God's spirit is a separate person spirit? Why do you sing regularly a special hymn to the "Holy Spirit". Sounds very strange if it isn't a separate person/being/entity. You'll find this very strange if Grace isn't a separate person/being/entity... Amazing grace! How sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found; Was blind, but now I see. ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed. Through many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come; ’Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far, And grace will lead me home.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 6:17:30 GMT -5
So God is a spirit and God's spirit is a separate person spirit? Why do you sing regularly a special hymn to the "Holy Spirit". Sounds very strange if it isn't a separate person/being/entity. Perhaps those who believe that the Father is only God might like to read many of the hymns they sing regularly and reflect on what they are singing. Next time that a professing person who believes this comes to the following words - and these hymns are but a mere selection in your hymn book - there are tens of others....all hymns which are based on the Bible. “My Saviour bids me sing His praise…clothed in His righteousness complete…to fall and worship at His feet” (#233) “In spirit and in truth, We all must worship Thee, Who gave Thyself a sacrifice and died to set us free.” (#243) “With joy I worship at my Saviour’s feet. In wonder and amazement I adore, And plead for grace to love Him more and more…” (#250) “Bowed at Thy throne of grace – Jesus my Lord…” (#265) “God forbid that I should glory, save in Jesus and His cross” (#293) “Singing songs of joy and praise for His great salvation…” (#360) “Thou art worthy, thou art worthy, blessed Jesus Lord of All” (#385) “Thou art worthy – to receive all strength and honour, adoration, praise and love” (#385) It creates a large problem for those who say they don't worship Jesus - you do every week and you sing about it! And if you do sing these verses heartily (as I'm sure you do) then why if you don't accept that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You are worshipping and bowing down at the feet of Jesus and at His throne of grace. You are worshipping the King of Kings (there's no higher rank than that!) as you sing correctly in many other hymns. But why? The Bible specifically commands that no-one be worshipped other than God alone. Yet you are worshipping the One every week that you don't believe is part of the Godhead. Seems like those who only believe that God is the Father need to stop singing myriads of hymns if you want to be true to what you believe. Are you saying that those hymns don't line up with the Bible?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on May 5, 2015 6:39:16 GMT -5
NathanB, You are way off base as far as saying that only God can forgive sins. The Disciples (Workers) could/can forgive sins. According to you, that would make the Disciples equal to God. Read John 20:23, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." There's also passages that speak of the Disciples (Workers) as having the authority to bind things in heaven, and things on earth. So, it it NOT only God Who has the power to forgive sins. I believe this means that when you speak to people about the gospel, that it will then separate them into those who do and don't believe. If they believe in Jesus' words then their sins of the past are forgiven them by God because of their ignorance, but they must not sin purposely anymore, if they don't believe then their sins are retained! Only God can judge, we're just here to bring the word to others! How can we judge when we are sinners also? And we don't know what's really in a person's heart, they could be all honest looking but inside lying! The only sins we can forgive are sins against ourselves, and then pray that God forgives them also
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 15:29:11 GMT -5
I recognise Jesus and my Lord and Saviour. I recognise him as my King. What do you mean we only recognise the Father as King? I recognise there is the Father, I recognise there is the Son (who is never called God the Son but only the Son of God in the Bible) I recognise there is the Holy Spirit . I am not against the Trinity. But I find trinitarian minded posters on this board are unable to understand that those who don't use the trinitarian terminology have a deep personal relationship with God. These people recognise and acknowledge The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and the oneness/unity between them which can be apprehended but not comprehended. One of the reasons others and myself called Jesus God the Son so people NOT confuse with God the Father. When we say Jesus is God, MANY think we say Jesus is God the Father. To make thing less confusion we say Jesus is God... the Son NOT God the Father. Many people do NOT understand the word God/Elohim refers to the Father and Son.
When a person understands the Godhead, then you will have a greater love, appreciation, and deeper relationship with our Lord God and Savior Jesus when we come together on Sunday morning to worship God/Elohim/plural= Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Spirit and in Truth.Nathan, it's Trinitarians who get confused and feel the need to use non-biblical terms. There's no confusion when we speak of God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. There's no evidence that Trinitarians are closer to God.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 15:32:16 GMT -5
Are you saying that those hymns don't line up with the Bible? Yes, it does line up with the Bible, so then why many of the friends and workers say they don't worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit?Trinitarians think they know best about who friends and workers worship. If the wording in the hymns lines up with the Bible, your problem is with the Bible - not with the friends and workers.
|
|
|
Post by matisse on May 5, 2015 16:04:46 GMT -5
Wasn't the Christian Bible assembled by trinitarians?
|
|
|
Post by matisse on May 5, 2015 16:22:48 GMT -5
How does one come to the conclusion that every idea expressed in the Christian Bible is true? That there is no room for modern revelation? I have never heard a biblically based explanation of either.
If "God" is willing to play games with humans by only letting people who he has given "eyes to see" have an understanding of his "Truth", then why have any particular confidence in what is (in modern times) written in black and white and sometimes red?? If there is such a thing as "eyes to see" why could there not be revelation that takes one beyond the written word?
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 5, 2015 18:17:52 GMT -5
When a person understands the Godhead, then you will have a greater love, appreciation, and deeper relationship with our Lord God and Savior Jesus when we come together on Sunday morning to worship God/Elohim/plural= Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Spirit and in Truth. I highly doubt your assertions of the greater love and of the plural God.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 20:48:56 GMT -5
Are you saying that those hymns don't line up with the Bible? Of course they line up with the bible - that's the point. My question is simply why do you and others who believe the Father only is God worship Christ when you sing various hymns. Why do you worship someone other than God? I'm not being smart - I'm completely serious in asking the question. If the wording used in the hymns is the same as what is used in the Bible, why is that not good enough for Trinitarians? What is it about the Trinity cult that makes it so hard for Trinitarians to accept those who don't go along with their theories?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 20:57:24 GMT -5
Nate, I and many others worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God. 99.9% of Christians do but leave that to one side for the moment. I very much doubt that 99.9% is correct. And of those Christians who worship the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God I expect the vast majority have accepted Trinity dogma without thinking much about it. In discussions with Trinitarians it's never long before words like "unknowable" are used. So why not stick with Bible terminology rather than introduce another layer of confusion?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 5, 2015 21:23:28 GMT -5
It's ironic that F&W are accused of an inferior level of understanding because they use Biblical terminology rather than man-made Trinitarian terminology.
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 5, 2015 23:40:08 GMT -5
Can't you answer the question Review ?
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 6, 2015 5:04:00 GMT -5
Nathan, Wow! Who are the many on TMB that testify that you have a relationship with God that many in our fellowship don't A different relationship . . . not better or superior or more scriptural . . . just different.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 6, 2015 5:23:02 GMT -5
Thanks Nate. I use the Son of God most frequently. I also understand Jesus to be wholly God as you do. So the terminology God (the Son) is used simply for understanding and differentiation to the Father and Holy Spirit. Everyone knows that, including Review who believes like we do that Jesus was fully God and fully man when He was on earth. I do not understand the understanding. Does not "the Father" indicate differentiation from "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit"? Should the writer have written "Baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit"?
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on May 6, 2015 5:45:16 GMT -5
Thanks Nate. I use the Son of God most frequently. I also understand Jesus to be wholly God as you do. So the terminology God (the Son) is used simply for understanding and differentiation to the Father and Holy Spirit. Everyone knows that, including Review who believes like we do that Jesus was fully God and fully man when He was on earth. I do not understand the understanding. Does not "the Father" indicate differentiation from "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit"? Should the writer have written "Baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit"? Greg - we are simply baptised in the name of God. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 5:48:50 GMT -5
No. If the workers and the friends don't understand the Godhead fully, how can they have deep living personal relationship with them? They don't know who they worship every Sunday morning. They partake the emblems, they pray for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the meetings, and they don't think that is worship. You have a great relationship with a religious theory Nathan. A religious theory that wasn't invented until long after Bible days.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 6, 2015 16:14:46 GMT -5
You have a great relationship with a religious theory Nathan. A religious theory that wasn't invented until long after Bible days. Do you worship Jesus? Yes or No.Who/what I claim to worship is not what it's about Nathan. Jesus taught the importance of our relationship with his father.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 6, 2015 16:42:05 GMT -5
I do not understand the understanding. Does not "the Father" indicate differentiation from "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit"? Should the writer have written "Baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit"? Greg - we are simply baptised in the name of God. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I used the baptism 'in the name of' trio as an example of understanding and differentiation, as you indicated using "God the Son" helps in understanding and differentiation. I think for some or many there is no confusion when people read or say "God" and when people read or say "the Father" or "our Father". They believe God to be the Father. Not God the Father. Simply. the Father, our Father, and as Jesus said , my Father. God = Father, not God = God the Father. I do not remember reading anything about baptism "in the name of God". Just seems to me if something was to be done "in the name of God" then it would be done "in the name of God" and not "in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" or "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". So, I think baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost means simply what is said or written . . . baptizing by the authority of the Father, and the authority of the Son, and the authority of Holy Spirit.
|
|