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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 23:59:13 GMT -5
The fact that Christians believe there is such a place as hell that you can go to if you don't do everything God wants you to do right, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. The fact that he could drown 99.9% of his creation because mankind wasn't doing what he wanted them to do, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. If he did, no one would go to hell and he wouldn't have killed almost all of his creation. Also, he would never have had to 'sacrifice' his son for our sins, if there wasn't anything we could do wrong. We are not loved unconditionally. That does not describe that God at all. There are hoards of conditions and you'd better make sure you meet these conditions or this all loving, all forgiving, all powerful God won't be able to prevent you from going to the hell that he created for everyone that didn't meet his conditions. Not all persons identifying as Christian believe in hell or that God would sacrifice his/her son for sins. Perhaps all these conditions have been created and imposed by mankind rather than by God. and if they are created and imposed by God what then?
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Post by bubbles on Mar 29, 2015 0:09:12 GMT -5
Every time I attempt to think of a condition to attach to a feeling that I am having this moment, this moment is gone. Sounds like a variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. The illusive trap of trying to capture fleeting thought processes to hold emotion. Feelings emotion can run like a river over rapids. Gone in a split second of time. I find nostaligic emotion triggered by a smell is so powerful taking me back in time to many different things. Yknot you have an extensive vocab im surprised at your loss for words. Ratz you take the expectation and intrigue out of the situation. Eg: when I read yknotz words my brain says 'oh what was he feeling that is hard to explain?' Then you make your comment and I do an excersize to find out what you are on about to discover its quantum mechanics!! Now if we consider the energy yknots brain linked to emotion is producing..is it because his vocab needs its extending or just that brain power switched off at that point? I wouldnt have a clue. I just know because I know its all contected.. Ah..here we go. Body soul and spirit...
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2015 0:17:08 GMT -5
I was a "Christian" for 40 -50 years of my life, gustaf, therefore I know all the Christian rhetoric.
I could have regurgitated them complete with bible verses to back them up.
Since then, I have learned to consider what do they really mean.
Dmmichgood, I hope by this statement you don't mean this fashionable "explaining away" we have been going through with Feminist exegesis; Postmodernist criticism; Socio-scientific criticism; Psychological criticism; Narrative criticism; Rhetorical criticism; Canonical criticism; Redaction criticism; Form criticism; Source criticism and Textual criticism.
These theorizers remind me of JF Kennedy conspiratorial writings. JFK conspirators all took a tiny part of the Warren Commission's report and flogged it to death - without any concessin or reference to anything else in that report. Relax, Bert!
You are getting your knickers in a twist!
How about just I started using some common sense?
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Post by ellie on Mar 29, 2015 0:43:53 GMT -5
Not all persons identifying as Christian believe in hell or that God would sacrifice his/her son for sins. Perhaps all these conditions have been created and imposed by mankind rather than by God. and if they are created and imposed by God what then? IF the conditions have been created by God then we are looking at some kind of God who is racist, sexist and bloodthirsty among other things. Also a God who changes substantially through the course of history.
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Post by bubbles on Mar 29, 2015 2:26:11 GMT -5
and if they are created and imposed by God what then? IF the conditions have been created by God then we are looking at some kind of God who is racist, sexist and bloodthirsty among other things. Also a God who changes substantially through the course of history. Malachi 3: 6 "I am the Lord I change not"....
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Post by maryhig on Mar 29, 2015 3:48:26 GMT -5
and if they are created and imposed by God what then? IF the conditions have been created by God then we are looking at some kind of God who is racist, sexist and bloodthirsty among other things. Also a God who changes substantially through the course of history. Man changes God's word, to suit themselves. God doesn't change. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 5:01:30 GMT -5
IF the conditions have been created by God then we are looking at some kind of God who is racist, sexist and bloodthirsty among other things. Also a God who changes substantially through the course of history. Man changes God's word, to suit themselves. God doesn't change. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. To put it another way, sometimes man put his own interpretation on God's word in order to fit comfortably with man's ideas.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 29, 2015 5:39:07 GMT -5
Man changes God's word, to suit themselves. God doesn't change. James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. To put it another way, sometimes man put his own interpretation on God's word in order to fit comfortably with man's ideas. Partaker, that's exactly what I mean
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Post by ellie on Mar 29, 2015 6:46:06 GMT -5
In writing the following I am assuming we are thinking of some Christian version of the bible when we say God’s word.
To take the theme of woman or man putting their own interpretation on God’s word to fit with their own ideas a small step further…
We might wish to question how much of the bible might in fact be man’s interpretation or concept of God from the time periods and culture in which the author(s) lived. Could that not be why God’s character appears to change so much across the bible. Next how are the things we are reading relevant for us today? Do they make sense according to our current understanding of science and history? Perhaps we are reading man’s interpretations from a former time and assuming that some man created concept of God appearing in the (New Testament) bible is fixed truth.
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Post by Greg on Mar 29, 2015 7:31:02 GMT -5
A friend of mine got married last month. She informed me yesterday she found her husband was having an affair, already. After a confrontation with him she informed me all was well, and both renewed their vows of "unconditional love." I can see where that marriage is heading. They both told each other no matter what the other does, each will still love one another. Affairs and what have you are allowed. This is pretty much similar to "accept me as I am" and "no personal accountability": "I am a living, breathing human being. Judge me, discern me only as that. Make no judgment of me for what I do as what I do is not because I am a living, breathing human being - as we all are, but is a result of genetics and culture, nature and nurture. Really, anything that I do that is different from what people consider 'normal' and 'right' is not my fault."
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2015 9:12:39 GMT -5
Not all persons identifying as Christian believe in hell or that God would sacrifice his/her son for sins. Perhaps all these conditions have been created and imposed by mankind rather than by God. What would be a theology that would include Jesus and the bible but exclude hell and still be within the definition of 'christian'?
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Post by placid-void on Mar 29, 2015 9:34:28 GMT -5
What would be a theology that would include Jesus and the bible but exclude hell and still be within the definition of 'christian'? Perhaps much like the cosmology that replaced the Ptolemaic system. The sun moved to the center, the earth moved into procession around the sun and "All is well". Still falls within the definition of cosmology.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2015 10:49:35 GMT -5
The fact that Christians believe there is such a place as hell that you can go to if you don't do everything God wants you to do right, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. The fact that he could drown 99.9% of his creation because mankind wasn't doing what he wanted them to do, confirms that the Christian God does not love unconditionally. If he did, no one would go to hell and he wouldn't have killed almost all of his creation. Also, he would never have had to 'sacrifice' his son for our sins, if there wasn't anything we could do wrong. We are not loved unconditionally. That does not describe that God at all. There are hoards of conditions and you'd better make sure you meet these conditions or this all loving, all forgiving, all powerful God won't be able to prevent you from going to the hell that he created for everyone that didn't meet his conditions. Not all persons identifying as Christian believe in hell or that God would sacrifice his/her son for sins. Perhaps all these conditions have been created and imposed by mankind rather than by God. No that is true. More and more Christians are abandoning the concept of hell and our new member Maryhig doesn't believe in Jesus crucifixion as being the thing that redeems us. (correct me if I'm wrong about that Maryhig). So I do see many people abandoning the teachings of the early RCC church. There is not much indication that hell was a destination until the RCC really. But my question would be this. If you don't believe the teachings of Christianity to be accurate, why be a Christian? Not that I'm complaining about the newer, gentler, kinder beliefs some Christians are slowly embracing. But they really aren't Christian beliefs anymore. Am I wrong about that?
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2015 10:58:43 GMT -5
and if they are created and imposed by God what then? IF the conditions have been created by God then we are looking at some kind of God who is racist, sexist and bloodthirsty among other things. Also a God who changes substantially through the course of history. Exactly. and that god definitely doesn't love unconditionally. That God's definition did and continues to, meet the needs of organizations that wish to have power over their members. It also appeals to certain personalities. The belief that people will suffer for what they've done either now or after life is a huge comfort for some people who feel that people must suffer for their so called sins, which are all man made thoughts about what's wrong or right in the first place. Personally I see no point in making someone suffer for eternity for making a mistake in a short span of years that humans actually live. That would be an example where the punishment does not reflect the crime. Even humans have figured that out, so you'd think an all knowing all loving all powerful being could figure something like that out. If there is such a being it's not a being I would want to spend eternity with anyway. And, we know that all was not always happy in heaven either and that just because you are there doesn't mean you can't get kicked out. Look what supposedly happened to the angels that complained. If heaven was such a happy place why would they feel the need to change things in the first place? And they got kicked out. What happens if everyone gets to heaven and finds out that it's not a great place to spend forever? If they complain will they be kicked out too? Oh the questions we have no answers for!
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2015 11:51:34 GMT -5
What would be a theology that would include Jesus and the bible but exclude hell and still be within the definition of 'christian'? Perhaps much like the cosmology that replaced the Ptolemaic system. The sun moved to the center, the earth moved into procession around the sun and "All is well". Still falls within the definition of cosmology. The reason for that change was that the Ptolemaic system was wrong and the corrected version was the replacement. Is the biblical version of christianity wrong?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2015 12:25:30 GMT -5
I believe that there are 2 extremes represented by the viewpoints of this thread. I refuse to engage in discussion with either side.
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Post by Greg on Mar 29, 2015 13:01:39 GMT -5
I believe that there are 2 extremes represented by the viewpoints of this thread. I refuse to engage in discussion with either side. Okay.
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2015 13:22:44 GMT -5
I believe that there are 2 extremes represented by the viewpoints of this thread. I refuse to engage in discussion with either side. And yet with every post you state: Why is it that most atheists are so quick to tell you what they DON'T BELIEVE IN and hesitant to tell you WHAT they believe in? Sounds a bit strange, doesn't it. Well the Nothings have nothing to offer. Christians have a future while unbelievers think they will just die, rot and be forgotten. I challenge one atheist to tell me what set of principles or beliefs shape their lives? It is posted but even when responded to it is not acknowledged. The challenge in the final sentence is not much of a challenge. If you do not want to engage in a discussion with the group of people you have pointed at in this blurb why post it? You say you challenge one atheist to respond but then what?
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Post by placid-void on Mar 29, 2015 14:24:52 GMT -5
Is the biblical version of christianity wrong? Probably depends on one's theology.
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Post by Greg on Mar 29, 2015 14:34:55 GMT -5
Is the biblical version of christianity wrong? Probably depends on one's theology. One's theology can differ from the bible and be right and make the bible wrong?
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2015 15:00:46 GMT -5
Probably depends on one's theology. One's theology can differ from the bible and be right and make the bible wrong? That doesn't seem right but when it comes to people's beliefs logic often does not play a part.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2015 15:15:32 GMT -5
One's theology can differ from the bible and be right and make the bible wrong? That doesn't seem right but when it comes to people's beliefs logic often does not play a part. Right or wrong, it's done all the time. Everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what the bible says.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2015 15:36:11 GMT -5
I believe that there are 2 extremes represented by the viewpoints of this thread. I refuse to engage in discussion with either side. Fine.
I don't know how we will be able to do without you but we can try.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 29, 2015 15:56:25 GMT -5
Probably depends on one's theology. One's theology can differ from the bible and be right and make the bible wrong? Great question, Greg. Consider for a moment leaving our safe and comfortable dichotomous world where questions are segregated into two categories; Right & Wrong. Venture for a moment into a world of growth where the consequence of connections are not measured as right or wrong but rather as growth and development. In this other world, the world of growth and development, the product of interaction with wisdom literature will depend on individual needs and experiences. In honesty, I don't know nuttin' 'bout theology. The way I look at things "make the bible wrong" does not convey much meaning or make much sense to me. The Bible simply is. A dynamic only begins when someone picks up the text and reflects on some portion of the content. The consequences of that interaction are either personal edification or not. If one feels enlightened that is great, if they don't, that is OK as well. I realize this sounds like New Age "I'm OK, you're OK" which makes me shudder. But the thought that wisdom accumulated through the ages will be reduced to the frightening categories of "Right" and "Wrong" makes me shudder even more.
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Post by placid-void on Mar 29, 2015 16:00:25 GMT -5
That doesn't seem right but when it comes to people's beliefs logic often does not play a part. Right or wrong, it's done all the time. Everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what the bible says. One of the consequences of evolution.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2015 16:11:08 GMT -5
Right or wrong, it's done all the time. Everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what the bible says. One of the consequences of evolution. How so?
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 29, 2015 16:45:16 GMT -5
I believe that there are 2 extremes represented by the viewpoints of this thread. I refuse to engage in discussion with either side. Curious why you would even state this. I have (more or less) followed this thread. The 2 extremes are not clear to me? Care to elaborate?
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Post by SharonArnold on Mar 29, 2015 16:51:40 GMT -5
One's theology can differ from the bible and be right and make the bible wrong? That doesn't seem right but when it comes to people's beliefs logic often does not play a part. Ummm.... I think it takes only the most basic understanding of how the Bible came into being for this to make perfect sense! You are the "fact-based" person here? (Time for some research.)
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