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Post by emy on Mar 31, 2015 14:29:25 GMT -5
Ask this of bishops & church leaders who have had a part in ecumenical councils & failed to achieve unity. If we never try to unite though, will it ever happen? Sometimes it takes a lot of 'failing' to achieve success. I imagine unity is much the same as long as people work towards it with open hearts and minds. Will the unity created by men have any power in the end? Rev. 17:12-14
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 14:34:33 GMT -5
yes yes dmg, it is understandable and normal that you consider your perspective accurate. You are missing the point, review005.
It isn't about my perspective.
It is about how one goes about presenting their side of an issue.
Often when they finally cannot any longer counter a presentation, they start to fall back on patronizing tactics .
Again, it isn't my perspective. There are universal ways that people use in conducting a discussion.
Patronizing tactics probably comes under one of the logical fallacies.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 14:42:24 GMT -5
That is the judgement you are placing on them as to their motivation for leaving.
It is the beam in your own eye whereby you can't believe that they could have left for any other reason other than what you have determined to be their reason.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 14:45:50 GMT -5
yes yes, thanks for your posts which are not about your perspective Kind of repeating yourself, aren't you?
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2015 16:42:59 GMT -5
Of course you're right Maja. Everyone knows, and Nathan confirmed, that unless you are professing and baptized by a worker you are going to hell. It's really quite simple. I was also told that when I asked a couple of workers about my non professing relatives. I was told they were unwilling and unfortunately that meant that they would not be saved. You can twist that in any way you like, make pretzels if you so choose, but bottom line is that if your not a card carrying 2x2 you are going to hell. Plain and simple. Nathan also confirmed that the Spirit works with people before they have ever met a worker. I'm not in a position to know, but I would suppose that meeting workers in that case would just be a recognition of what the Spirit has been teaching.(Actually, maybe I can know, because it says pretty much that in John 16:7-13.) Another thing I don't know from experience is whether most converts ask to be baptised or if they are told they must be. I do know that even with B&R kids in this area, no one suggests they be baptised. They are expected to request it. Some of us really do believe God is the only judge and Jesus intercedes. Therefore, I could never say that anyone not in the fellowship is lost, and especially those who have never had opportunity to listen to the gospel as I know it. It's becoming clearer to me that the key to salvation is KNOWING God and Jesus Christ. (John 17:3; Matt. 7:22-23) Emy, as Maja said there are many of the friends that do allow that a Christian outside of the F&W's will have salvation and it's up to God. I imagine even some of the workers now also think this way. I was B&R and professed when I was 8 years old. I professed until I was almost 13. I was in the process of wanting to get baptized and likely would have been if things hadn't changed after those conversations with the workers. So I agree, you need to ask to be baptized. But in order for you to be able to take part in the emblems I would have needed to be baptized. There were expectations and things withheld, like a carrot, so that you feel the need to go the next step. I fell for the belief I had to profess and be baptized within this group if I wanted to go to heaven. For a few years after I quit professing I was sure I was going to hell. That is how ingrained this stuff is on the psyche when you're B&R. As far as those who are not in the truth, that is what Nathan says the spirit works on them and they find the Truth because of that. I know Nathan has told me many times that I will not be saved if I do not return to the Truth. That is accurate and what I was taught and told growing up. Though I am glad to hear not all of the friends believe that anymore.
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Post by snow on Mar 31, 2015 16:45:18 GMT -5
If we never try to unite though, will it ever happen? Sometimes it takes a lot of 'failing' to achieve success. I imagine unity is much the same as long as people work towards it with open hearts and minds. Will the unity created by men have any power in the end? Rev. 17:12-14 Depends on what you're definition of 'in the end' is. I imagine you and I have a different idea of what the end might look like.
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Post by Gene on Mar 31, 2015 18:20:33 GMT -5
Gene, Please let me know which posts I have made on this thread which are dishonest & not forthright. Review005, I've been thinking about your question and wondering how to respond for nearly 24 hours now. First of all, "dishonest" is such an unpleasant word... I can see why you thought I was saying you have posted dishonestly, and I apologize for that. I don't see you as a dishonest person or one who knowingly writes contra-factual posts. But that aside, returning to your question, here's my dilemma: I could go back and review all your posts (which I did) and copy snippets and analyze them and explain why I think you were not as forthright as you might have been... but I'm afraid it would all be a waste of time and energy. I would assert, and then you would refute, and I would not accept your refutation, and you would not accept my assertion. I think it would be better to leave it like this: If you think there's a chance you have not been as forthright as you might have been in some of your answers to questions on this thread, I recommend you carefully and prayerfully review your posts--especially, compare your answers to Nathan's answers to some of the same questions. Let the Spirit guide you, and if there's a chance you could have been more forthright, I'm sure that will be revealed to you, because you have an honest heart. On the other hand, if you feel you have been entirely forthright, then you can chalk my statement up to my error - even more so given that I am providing no support for my assertion. And if, after all this, you would like some personal coaching on this matter, feel free to PM me. My rates are reasonable; I offer a ministerial discount, and would consider a pro bono arrangement, if necessary. Gene
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Post by mdm on Mar 31, 2015 21:58:19 GMT -5
Since I don't want Gene to risk losing his reputation for having sense and integrity, I'll say what I thought wasn't the complete picture. But that was 2 days and several posts ago, so by now I think we have come to an agreement. If I may add my two cents... As someone who was a baptized member of a different church and who was as such in touch with workers both in Europe and in the US, one of whom was from New Zealand and had also labored in Australia, and as someone who has been in meetings in the US as well as several European countries, I can say with certainty that the worldwide meaning of 'professing' is to make known publicly that one believes that this church is the one right church and to denounce all previous allegiances and other churches as false. This is your personal experience and perception of 'professing'.
In my own personal experience and then in the numerous discussions I have had with people considering the matter of professing the subject of this being the one true church HAS NEVER once come up....for this reason I am unable to accept your words. "I can say with certainty that the worldwide meaning of 'professing' is to make known publicly that one believes that this church is the one right church........." Often focus has been whether the candidate has assurance of a call from God. Are they ready to surrender to the Lordship of Christ. Later you said that the fellowship is for those who have had an experience with God within the context of the fellowship only. So, the focus is not just on the call to surrender to the Lordship of Christ, but also on whether that call was within the context of the fellowship. If the call was in the context of another church, then the fellowship is not a good match for them. So it's not only Lordship of Christ, but Lordship of Christ + the fellowship. I had to 'profess' in order to join the church, and then I had to be baptized again in order to become a full member of the church. All of my previous commitments and experiences were seen by f&w's as leading up to being part of the one true church. This is unfortunate you felt you 'had' to profess. If you did it because you felt you had to I suggest perhaps it would have been better if you never had? In my discussions with candidates for this I tell them it is solely a matter between themselves and God. 'Professing' is my ministry is simply a public declaration of a personal covenant that an individual has made with God. Not just of a personal covenant with God, but of covenant with God within the context of the fellowship. But, my point was that only those who have professed through and been baptized by a worker belong to the fellowship - not that someone was forcing me to profess and be baptized.
I can see why those born and raised in it don't see it that way, as they don't have anything to give up and denounce, but that is not true for those converted, often even actively converted, from other churches. I know intimately a number who were not b&r in this way and are now part of our fellowship. They are people who were seeking, people who were disillusioned in their spiritual life and experience in the church they previously belonged to. Did they have to leave their old church? Not at all, they wanted to! They found life and reality they previously didn't have. They gladly left the old and came to the new and I know they have no desire to go back to the old. In my ministry I meet many people, many people are happy and satisfied in their current church. I respect and appreciate that; they are in the right place for them and that is where they are advised to stay. We are not looking for people who with any reluctance have to profess; such are well advised to remain in the church where they are. We are looking for people who want to profess because of how God has spoken to them and called them. My point was that those born and raised in the fellowship aren't renouncing and denouncing previous allegiances when they profess, so they can say that professing only means professing faith in Christ. It doesn't. It also means choosing the fellowship as the right church - whether because of experiences with God, or because it's from the shores of Galilee, or because of the right ministry, or whatever reason. You asked in one post: " Would it be correct that you never made a decision with all your heart to leave the old and come to the new that the gospel meetings introduces needy seeking souls to?" The fact that this question could not be used to judge a B&R's person's profession of faith says it all.
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Post by mdm on Mar 31, 2015 22:35:28 GMT -5
Well thanks everyone, do you wonder what I think of all this? I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way . But anyway I'm happy where I am. I think anyone starts attending a meeting is searching so thats is why I feel it is good that we don't stop people attending our meetings and we would encourage them to come if they wished to! Also, i do follow Jesus but I'm not perfect nor is anyone else so no other human being can know if another is going to heaven or not, because we are all sinners! God decides that not man. The only chance we have is to follow his son because he lived a perfect life. We are not judges. It's though Christ we are saved not through any man! What if the man we profess through is corrupt? How would that work? The person professing could have a better heart than them! That's why we can only go through Jesus because he was sinless! Mary, could you tell us what is known about the Friends and Workers church among the members of your church? Do they refer to it by a certain name? You said that you found the Truth Meeting Board accidentally, right? How did you recognize what church it's about? How is this fellowship viewed by members of your church? What are the sentiments, thoughts about it? Do you know any friends and workers? Thanks I hope I am not asking too much? I just find it all fascinating!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2015 22:45:11 GMT -5
copying and analysing snippets could not be advised, not the way to approach the exercise. You would need to consider a comment in the context it is made. It is the "context" of your comments where you haven't been frank & straightforward in answering!
You just keep telling us that it is only our "personal experience and perception." as if we don't know what we are talking about!
I don't know how long you have been in this "fellowship" or whatever you want to call it, -and of course you aren't going to tell us, -but you just dismiss what we say as if it can't possibly be true!
Some of us who have been it it nearly all our lives, -are second & third generation, - have had relatives in the work (my father & brother were) and great-grandparents "professing, yet according to you we don't know anything, -it is all just our "perception."
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 1:43:18 GMT -5
Maja You have given your interpretation of my posts that is fine. I'll mention a few things about your interpretations of my posts.... I wrote This is unfortunate you felt you 'had' to profess. If you did it because you felt you had to I suggest perhaps it would have been better if you never had? In my discussions with candidates for this I tell them it is solely a matter between themselves and God. 'Professing' is my ministry is simply a public declaration of a personal covenant that an individual has made with God. Detractors and ex members like yourself attempt to say such an experience is Christ + 2x2 , Lordship of Christ + the fellowship and other such. It bothers me little, it doesn't affect the relationship with God that I and ten thousands of others in this fellowship have. I must confess I am somewhat surprised at what appears to be an exclusive and judgemental attitude you have....something that exes often allege about friends and workers. Review005, I had followed these comments of yours to Maja when you first made them but I didn't comment at the time but I am going to now. They are a part of why I came to the conclusion that you were not being straight forward. You stated: "This is unfortunate you felt you 'had to' profess."
I'm sure that you knew what she really meant, -it you didn't you should have. Because indeed she did HAVE to 'profess' in order to join (become a part of) the church,(fellowship) and then I had to be baptized again in order to become a full member of the church (fellowship) and you cannot deny that! Instead you jumped on the words "had to" and begin to castigate her saying,
"If you did it because you felt you had to I suggest perhaps it would have been better if you never had?
I won't go through the myriad of like comments that you made because it would be fruitless waste of time & energy as Gene has already stated. However, the total of your remarks speaks for itself.
Yet, for some reason you are "surprised at what appears to be an exclusive and judgmental attitude" that you think some of us may have?
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 1:49:23 GMT -5
Well thanks everyone, do you wonder what I think of all this? I'm sure with most religions to join fully you have to do something to be in their way . But anyway I'm happy where I am. I think anyone starts attending a meeting is searching so thats is why I feel it is good that we don't stop people attending our meetings and we would encourage them to come if they wished to! Also, i do follow Jesus but I'm not perfect nor is anyone else so no other human being can know if another is going to heaven or not, because we are all sinners! God decides that not man. The only chance we have is to follow his son because he lived a perfect life. We are not judges. It's though Christ we are saved not through any man! What if the man we profess through is corrupt? How would that work? The person professing could have a better heart than them! That's why we can only go through Jesus because he was sinless! Mary, could you tell us what is known about the Friends and Workers church among the members of your church? Do they refer to it by a certain name? You said that you found the Truth Meeting Board accidentally, right? How did you recognize what church it's about? How is this fellowship viewed by members of your church? What are the sentiments, thoughts about it? Do you know any friends and workers? Thanks I hope I am not asking too much? I just find it all fascinating! Hi maja I'll answer each question separately if that's OK? Here in Wales we didn't really know anything about the f&w's only that there are other groups of people on the world that believe similar to us. We are not a huge organisation but just a small meeting, and there are a few small ones in Ireland. I spoke to someone from Ireland last week, and he knew of the f&ws and said an ex 2x2 attends his meeting! My meeting do know about the beginnings and have told us all about it and about William Irvine etc. They are very open about it! I think the older ones may of heard of the 2x2s and workers but don't really know much about them because when I told then about this site they were asking questions and they think it's good that I'm here they may know more I don't know I'll have to ask them . The older people in our meeting don't have internet etc. Only a tv and radio, just the basics really so won't know too much so they won't have looked it all up about the f&w's! When I first came in here I didn't know what everyone was talking about, I was totally confused with friends overseers, workers and professing etc. It took me a bit to understand what you were all talking about. I was shocked at how organised it all is, and amazed to see how we were classed a outcasts. And even though I'm still not sure but I get the impression we are not very well thought of my some in the fellowship? But we don't feel the same, I'm so glad to meet you all! And everyone else on here! And the people I have spoken to seem really friendly genuine people! I found this site because someone in our meeting came to mine to look up Edward Cooney with me. (she doesn't have the internet) actually we read bits from TTT but didn't click that the site was about people linked to the f&w's as we only really read about Edward. Then I saw bits about the 2x2s so googled then and after reading a few bits found this site and joined! I don't know of any f&w's near me, I've never heard of any anyway. I've never heard people mention them around here at all! I really didn't know anything much until I found this site! I think the thing that has shocked me the most is that some here call it the fellowship. Because my husband had a dream many years ago before he really came to our meeting. And my brother had just died and in my husbands dream my brother told him to come and work with him and that he was in the fellowship! The dream had a lot more in it, and since then things have happened in real life that was associated to his dream but his dream was all about the fellowship. I remember asking my husband what the fellowship could be. I asked in the meeting and they said that the people of God are the fellowship. But I have never seen people call themselves that before! Until now! So I don't see you all as anything else but my friends in God! I hope that you don't see me as to much of an outcast as I believe all Gods people (and I don't mean religion) I mean people who love God from their heart, are all from the same root. Just different branches! Mary P.s. one other thing that has shocked me is that when I came on here I felt like we were like some kind of Amazon tribe that was thought of as being extinct! It seems that a lot of you didn't know we were here either!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 1:49:46 GMT -5
Ross do you consider yourself a person of integrity? Do you agree with the rules of this forum? That the anonymity and privacy of posters is to be respected? Your post breaches that. I consider other comments and your reasoning in your post erroneous. I won't at this point explain why until I am able to regain confidence in you and integrity I presumed you had. I will delete this post if you respect the anonymity of that I and many posters wish for and use. Heh? What did Ross say?
Who's anonymity and privacy? I don't get it.
I must be more tired than I thought, guess I'd better go to bed.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 2:49:33 GMT -5
Your use of terms like, 'cater' 'looking for a change' 'fizzer', 'looking for some other church that appeals more.' We have heard so much of that kind of stuff!
Is it any wonder why people left?
review005 said: "You are correct it is no wonder such people would leave, if they came 'looking for a change' or looking for some other church that appeals more then it will be a disappointment for them."
Do you have no shame at all? You use of terms like, 'cater' 'looking for a change' 'fizzer', 'looking for some other church that appeals more.'
I don't care whether you are a worker or not, -nor which country you preach in. Your comments are thoughtless & uncaring.
Deny it if you like, but THAT is the reason some of us left. It wasn't to go looking for another church that "suited us."
It had been my whole life,- I grieved for it for a long, long time like one grieves for a loved one.
It was like losing someone you loved that died, -but you know that everyone dies so you learn to accept their death.
But in this case a person just doesn't expect what they have lived for all their whole life will die!
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 3:00:11 GMT -5
review005 said: "You are correct it is no wonder such people would leave, if they came 'looking for a change' or looking for some other church that appeals more then it will be a disappointment for them."
Do you have no shame at all? You use of terms like, 'cater' 'looking for a change' 'fizzer', 'looking for some other church that appeals more.'
I don't care whether you are a worker or not, -nor which country you preach in. Your comments are thoughtless & uncaring.
Deny it if you like, but THAT is the reason some of us left. It wasn't to go looking for another church that "suited us."
It had been my whole life,- I grieved for it for a long, long time like one grieves for a loved one.
It was like losing someone you loved that died, -but you know that everyone dies so you learn to accept their death.
But in this case a person just doesn't expect what they have lived for all their whole life will die!
DMG, can I ask you something Did you leave because you found out William Irvine was the one who started the 2x2s and you didn't know? And was that the only reason you left? I hope you don't mind me asking, I'm just curious? Thank you
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 3:07:03 GMT -5
review005 said: "You are correct it is no wonder such people would leave, if they came 'looking for a change' or looking for some other church that appeals more then it will be a disappointment for them."
Do you have no shame at all? You use of terms like, 'cater' 'looking for a change' 'fizzer', 'looking for some other church that appeals more.'
I don't care whether you are a worker or not, -nor which country you preach in. Your comments are thoughtless & uncaring.
Deny it if you like, but THAT is the reason some of us left. It wasn't to go looking for another church that "suited us."
It had been my whole life,- I grieved for it for a long, long time like one grieves for a loved one.
It was like losing someone you loved that died, -but you know that everyone dies so you learn to accept their death.
But in this case a person just doesn't expect what they have lived for all their whole life will die!
DMG, can I ask you something Did you leave because you found out William Irvine was the one who started the 2x2s and you didn't know? And was that the only reason you left? I hope you don't mind me asking, I'm just curious? Thank you Thanks, Maryhig, for you concern.
No, that wasn't the reason I left. I had known as a very small child about someone the one who started the 2x2s in Ireland, -I just didn't know know the details.
BTW, I also heard my father speak about Edward Cooney.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 3:21:35 GMT -5
Thanks for answering, I was asking because I was told openly and I wondered if you had of known would it have made a difference. But now I see that's not your reason for leaving anyway. Did you? I didn't hear much about him, only a few bits, Cherie has kindly emailed me the life and ministry of Edward Cooney so I am going to read that. It's very interesting already and I'm only on page 1
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Post by Gene on Apr 1, 2015 6:23:35 GMT -5
Can anyone tell me what "fair dinkum" means?
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Post by Gene on Apr 1, 2015 6:25:45 GMT -5
No you have missed the point The point I made: I find it bizarre that on a forum about a Christian church an openly gay poster and an atheist poster make more meaningful contribution than not a few who claim the name of Christ! As I posted this is about their integrity and sense. I did not mention agreement. Then you imaginatively add a dimension of 'agree with me' and 'Yes' people. Get real!...without a doubt there would be much we don't agree on. But their sense and integrity means I can communicate meaningfully with them. But the moment they disagree with you, their integrity and sense will be out the window! You set yourself a precedent in the last few weeks. But Ross, I do disagree with 005! He thinks he's totally forthright in his responses. I don't. We've agreed to disagree.
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Post by Admin on Apr 1, 2015 6:25:57 GMT -5
Mary, could you tell us what is known about the Friends and Workers church among the members of your church? Do they refer to it by a certain name? You said that you found the Truth Meeting Board accidentally, right? How did you recognize what church it's about? How is this fellowship viewed by members of your church? What are the sentiments, thoughts about it? Do you know any friends and workers? Thanks I hope I am not asking too much? I just find it all fascinating! Hi maja I'll answer each question separately if that's OK? Here in Wales we didn't really know anything about the f&w's only that there are other groups of people on the world that believe similar to us. We are not a huge organisation but just a small meeting, and there are a few small ones in Ireland. I spoke to someone from Ireland last week, and he knew of the f&ws and said an ex 2x2 attends his meeting! My meeting do know about the beginnings and have told us all about it and about William Irvine etc. They are very open about it! I think the older ones may of heard of the 2x2s and workers but don't really know much about them because when I told then about this site they were asking questions and they think it's good that I'm here they may know more I don't know I'll have to ask them . The older people in our meeting don't have internet etc. Only a tv and radio, just the basics really so won't know too much so they won't have looked it all up about the f&w's! When I first came in here I didn't know what everyone was talking about, I was totally confused with friends overseers, workers and professing etc. It took me a bit to understand what you were all talking about. I was shocked at how organised it all is, and amazed to see how we were classed a outcasts. And even though I'm still not sure but I get the impression we are not very well thought of my some in the fellowship? But we don't feel the same, I'm so glad to meet you all! And everyone else on here! And the people I have spoken to seem really friendly genuine people! I found this site because someone in our meeting came to mine to look up Edward Cooney with me. (she doesn't have the internet) actually we read bits from TTT but didn't click that the site was about people linked to the f&w's as we only really read about Edward. Then I saw bits about the 2x2s so googled then and after reading a few bits found this site and joined! I don't know of any f&w's near me, I've never heard of any anyway. I've never heard people mention them around here at all! I really didn't know anything much until I found this site! I think the thing that has shocked me the most is that some here call it the fellowship. Because my husband had a dream many years ago before he really came to our meeting. And my brother had just died and in my husbands dream my brother told him to come and work with him and that he was in the fellowship! The dream had a lot more in it, and since then things have happened in real life that was associated to his dream but his dream was all about the fellowship. I remember asking my husband what the fellowship could be. I asked in the meeting and they said that the people of God are the fellowship. But I have never seen people call themselves that before! Until now! So I don't see you all as anything else but my friends in God! I hope that you don't see me as to much of an outcast as I believe all Gods people (and I don't mean religion) I mean people who love God from their heart, are all from the same root. Just different branches! Mary P.s. one other thing that has shocked me is that when I came on here I felt like we were like some kind of Amazon tribe that was thought of as being extinct! It seems that a lot of you didn't know we were here either! Hi Mary, That is so interesting, your responses to Maja. Glad you don't mind our questions, and it seems that you are curious about our branch of the church also. It is like finding a long-lost Amazon tribe like you say, or finding a long-lost family member, or two parallel worlds suddenly coming together. And the fascination of discovering where life has taken each of the pairs in the long years they have been separated. One thing that has led to differences between your church and ours is certainly the degree of organization. Man's organization overlaid on God's spirit-filled people (church) can certainly be a tumultuous mix. Doesn't worry me either, Wm Irvine being the human founder (founding agent) of both our churches. God's true church is made up of all believers in whom God places his spirit (the indwelling Spirit of Christ). And then man's organization steps in. Who were the true church in the latter centuries of the Roman Empire and what did those churches look like? Somewhere along the line you will have Nathan's Waldensians, and the Moravian Brethren, and so many other small or large groupings. On this rich tapestry of different administrations, Irvine comes along and spawns our two churches. But the important and essential element is to be sealed by God with his Spirit within. The bible even tells us there will be differences in organizations: 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Your uncle sounds an amazing man of God. Do you have any special Easter services or special remembrance of the crucifixion? Please pass on greetings to all those faithful souls in your meeting in Wales, admin
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Post by Admin on Apr 1, 2015 6:31:44 GMT -5
Dear all, Please stick to the topic of this thread "welcome to members of our sister churches". The arguing can be done elsewhere. Future posts not on topic will be removed. Thanks for your understanding, admin
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 7:57:39 GMT -5
Hi maja I'll answer each question separately if that's OK? Here in Wales we didn't really know anything about the f&w's only that there are other groups of people on the world that believe similar to us. We are not a huge organisation but just a small meeting, and there are a few small ones in Ireland. I spoke to someone from Ireland last week, and he knew of the f&ws and said an ex 2x2 attends his meeting! My meeting do know about the beginnings and have told us all about it and about William Irvine etc. They are very open about it! I think the older ones may of heard of the 2x2s and workers but don't really know much about them because when I told then about this site they were asking questions and they think it's good that I'm here they may know more I don't know I'll have to ask them . The older people in our meeting don't have internet etc. Only a tv and radio, just the basics really so won't know too much so they won't have looked it all up about the f&w's! When I first came in here I didn't know what everyone was talking about, I was totally confused with friends overseers, workers and professing etc. It took me a bit to understand what you were all talking about. I was shocked at how organised it all is, and amazed to see how we were classed a outcasts. And even though I'm still not sure but I get the impression we are not very well thought of my some in the fellowship? But we don't feel the same, I'm so glad to meet you all! And everyone else on here! And the people I have spoken to seem really friendly genuine people! I found this site because someone in our meeting came to mine to look up Edward Cooney with me. (she doesn't have the internet) actually we read bits from TTT but didn't click that the site was about people linked to the f&w's as we only really read about Edward. Then I saw bits about the 2x2s so googled then and after reading a few bits found this site and joined! I don't know of any f&w's near me, I've never heard of any anyway. I've never heard people mention them around here at all! I really didn't know anything much until I found this site! I think the thing that has shocked me the most is that some here call it the fellowship. Because my husband had a dream many years ago before he really came to our meeting. And my brother had just died and in my husbands dream my brother told him to come and work with him and that he was in the fellowship! The dream had a lot more in it, and since then things have happened in real life that was associated to his dream but his dream was all about the fellowship. I remember asking my husband what the fellowship could be. I asked in the meeting and they said that the people of God are the fellowship. But I have never seen people call themselves that before! Until now! So I don't see you all as anything else but my friends in God! I hope that you don't see me as to much of an outcast as I believe all Gods people (and I don't mean religion) I mean people who love God from their heart, are all from the same root. Just different branches! Mary P.s. one other thing that has shocked me is that when I came on here I felt like we were like some kind of Amazon tribe that was thought of as being extinct! It seems that a lot of you didn't know we were here either! Hi Mary, That is so interesting, your responses to Maja. Glad you don't mind our questions, and it seems that you are curious about our branch of the church also. It is like finding a long-lost Amazon tribe like you say, or finding a long-lost family member, or two parallel worlds suddenly coming together. And the fascination of discovering where life has taken each of the pairs in the long years they have been separated. One thing that has led to differences between your church and ours is certainly the degree of organization. Man's organization overlaid on God's spirit-filled people (church) can certainly be a tumultuous mix. Doesn't worry me either, Wm Irvine being the human founder (founding agent) of both our churches. God's true church is made up of all believers in whom God places his spirit (the indwelling Spirit of Christ). And then man's organization steps in. Who were the true church in the latter centuries of the Roman Empire and what did those churches look like? Somewhere along the line you will have Nathan's Waldensians, and the Moravian Brethren, and so many other small or large groupings. On this rich tapestry of different administrations, Irvine comes along and spawns our two churches. But the important and essential element is to be sealed by God with his Spirit within. The bible even tells us there will be differences in organizations: 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Your uncle sounds an amazing man of God. Do you have any special Easter services or special remembrance of the crucifixion? Please pass on greetings to all those faithful souls in your meeting in Wales, admin I totally agree with everything you've said! It's so nice to get along rather than argue about differences! At at least we share the same core beliefs, we love God our father and Christ Jesus from our hearts! We don't celebrate Easter and Christmas etc we just have our normal meetings. But we do have Easter eggs for the children and presents and a tree at Christmas but we don't have special services. And I hope I don't get my head bitten off but we don't celebrate the crucifixion because we don't believe it was right to crucify Jesus! But that he sacrificed his life for us by not living to please himself and gave up his life for God so His Spirit could live through him (death to self) we believe it was wicked hands that crucified him. Nevertheless he had to go through it and overcome Satan as was prophesied in the old testament and he did it with his own free will! And he fulfilled all those prophesies and overcame Satan. He never sinned giving us an example of how to live to please God and bringing us closer to him! But we believe it was wrong to kill him and not something to celebrate! Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. If we follow him and die to self, we receive his life in our hearts and are saved by him, (wikipedia salvation: In religion, salvation is stated as the saving of the soul from sin and its consequences). Satan is evil so when Christ in our hearts he is helping us to overcome Satan this saving is from him and sin. But we have to endure to the end to be completely saved and go to heaven! And he came and showed us how to die to self! Just like it says in Romans 6 But even if my meeting believed differently I still would think it was wrong. I cried when I was a child when I heard about and saw the crucifixion on TV and I cry now! I remember watching Jesus of Nazareth when I was a child. And it got to the crucifixion, I saw the first nail and screamed and ran out of the room with my hands over my ears. I can't bear it! I kept asking why would they kill him he's God's son. My Mum was hugging me. I'm already close to tears again! Why kill the son of God, he had such a kind heart full of love? My heart can't see how God would go against his own law of you shalt not kill, he doesn't lie. and even Jesus said it was wrong in John 7. I wonder why we believe differently in this, I have a copy of the book about Edward Cooney that Cherie sent me online i will read it and let you know what I think. I've only read one page and I was choked up! When he said about the rich and poor in the church I totally relate to seeing things like this when I was a child in my own experiences only we were the poor! And when he said about his happy family with one mother and one father, straight away I saw this as God and his church. I've only got to there but will carry on later! It looks like its really interesting! But I don't want to argue with everyone again about the crucifixion, I know what a lot of you believe. And you have to listen to your own hearts. I'm sorry this was so long, but I won't go into depth like this again I just thought I would explain properly how we believe and why we don't celebrate the crucifixion. Nathan remember the signposts! You really don't have to tell me again about Jesus' death and the Trinity I know what you believe and I know your are very passionate in those things so when will just have to agree to differ God bless Mary
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Post by mdm on Apr 1, 2015 14:00:01 GMT -5
Hi maja I'll answer each question separately if that's OK? Here in Wales we didn't really know anything about the f&w's only that there are other groups of people on the world that believe similar to us. We are not a huge organisation but just a small meeting, and there are a few small ones in Ireland. I spoke to someone from Ireland last week, and he knew of the f&ws and said an ex 2x2 attends his meeting! My meeting do know about the beginnings and have told us all about it and about William Irvine etc. They are very open about it! I think the older ones may of heard of the 2x2s and workers but don't really know much about them because when I told then about this site they were asking questions and they think it's good that I'm here they may know more I don't know I'll have to ask them . The older people in our meeting don't have internet etc. Only a tv and radio, just the basics really so won't know too much so they won't have looked it all up about the f&w's! When I first came in here I didn't know what everyone was talking about, I was totally confused with friends overseers, workers and professing etc. It took me a bit to understand what you were all talking about. I was shocked at how organised it all is, and amazed to see how we were classed a outcasts. And even though I'm still not sure but I get the impression we are not very well thought of my some in the fellowship? But we don't feel the same, I'm so glad to meet you all! And everyone else on here! And the people I have spoken to seem really friendly genuine people! I found this site because someone in our meeting came to mine to look up Edward Cooney with me. (she doesn't have the internet) actually we read bits from TTT but didn't click that the site was about people linked to the f&w's as we only really read about Edward. Then I saw bits about the 2x2s so googled then and after reading a few bits found this site and joined! I don't know of any f&w's near me, I've never heard of any anyway. I've never heard people mention them around here at all! I really didn't know anything much until I found this site! I think the thing that has shocked me the most is that some here call it the fellowship. Because my husband had a dream many years ago before he really came to our meeting. And my brother had just died and in my husbands dream my brother told him to come and work with him and that he was in the fellowship! The dream had a lot more in it, and since then things have happened in real life that was associated to his dream but his dream was all about the fellowship. I remember asking my husband what the fellowship could be. I asked in the meeting and they said that the people of God are the fellowship. But I have never seen people call themselves that before! Until now! So I don't see you all as anything else but my friends in God! I hope that you don't see me as to much of an outcast as I believe all Gods people (and I don't mean religion) I mean people who love God from their heart, are all from the same root. Just different branches! Mary P.s. one other thing that has shocked me is that when I came on here I felt like we were like some kind of Amazon tribe that was thought of as being extinct! It seems that a lot of you didn't know we were here either! My thought was: it feels like making contact with intelligent beings from another planet! One difference between your church and 2x2 church is that in 2x2 church TV's are a big no-no. Radios used to banned too, as well as going to a movie theater. Even though most people don't have a TV nowdays, most have computers, DVD players, and they do watch movies. But, one cannot have a meeting in their home if they have a TV in their living room. F&W's don't have Easter or Christmas services either. In fact, you may often hear in meetings held on those days criticism of those who do, because it is assumed that these are the only days that many go to church or think about God. As for Christmas trees, they are frowned on in the US, but I hear it's different in Australia, so it may be different in other places too. I've never seen a Christmas tree in a "professing home." Kids may get Christmas gifts, but it's not talked about openly, so I really don't know (since I wasn't raised in this fellowship). I've heard that in Scotland the Friends used to exchanged small Christmas gifts among each other. You say you were shocked at how organized the 2x2 church is. Based on what an older worker (the same one who knew Edward Cooney) told us, it wasn't always that organized. This worker new some of the first workers and how things were done in the beginning, and lamented to us that "we are getting too organized for our own good." It is reported on TMB that Edward didn't want to be limited by overseers in where he can go - limited to one "field." Our worker had the same conviction, that the Spirit should lead the workers where they need to go. Later, we heard that he was seen by other workers as somewhat of a rebel When we talked to another European worker about certain issues in the church, he told us that the root of the problem is that "there are overseers of overseers." So yes, it is very organized, and decisions are made at a level that most church members are not even aware of, let alone part of. As for what 2x2 folks call themselves and their church, someone correct me, but I don't think that "fellowship" is used much. The usual name is "the Truth," "the meetings," "the friends" or "the way." "When did you meet the Truth?" means "when did you make the first contact with the church?" When somebody leaves the church and comes back, it is said of him that "he came back to meetings" or "he came back to the Truth." When someone is being warned not to leave the church, they may be warned against leaving "the fold" or "the true way." When someone joins the church, it is said that they "professed," because they made a public profession by standing to their feet at a Gospel meeting when invitation was given. Therefore, they become a "professing" person. So, if one wants to know if someone is a member of the church, they would ask: "Does he profess?" or "Is he professing?" Also, they may say someone "came to the Truth" to say they professed. Someone's family may have been "in the way" or "in the truth" for so many generations. Oh, and homes are "professing" if they belong to professing people Some visitors once jokingly said about our big dining table that it's a "good professing table" because it could accommodate all the visiting friends and workers
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Post by mdm on Apr 1, 2015 15:47:13 GMT -5
Mary as a present member and a minister in our church I will ask Maja (ex member) a few questions about what she has written. Maja: Do you think it wrong that our fellowship does not have Christmas and Easter services? You have mentioned about the ministry and referred to Edward Cooney and two other workers. Kindly give an outline of your thoughts regarding our ministry which has hundreds of ministers in the US and thousands worldwide and how it should be. Do you feel each should independently go as the spirit moves? you wrote: "When did you meet the Truth?" means "when did you make the first contact with the church?"Yes it does mean that but it almost always means and is understood as when did a person who was a lost sheep and without Christ first meet our Church which was the time when they got Christ/Truth which they previously did not have. Mary: you will find that there are posters on this forum who find it very difficult to accept and acknowledge the experience of members of our fellowship who were without Christ and disappointed in their church experience but find Christ and new life when they come in touch with our ministry and church, they negate it with Christ plus .. etc. My experience of professing is the same thing as when I accepted Christ, surrendered my life to him, was born again. It was between me and God. I make judgement between right and wrong, between true doctrine and false doctrine. I do not judge individuals who are not part of our fellowship as lost. God knows who is saved and not saved. If someone says they are a Christian and have a relationship with God, I accept that and am happy for them. Whatever any poster may say to negate my statement does not change the truth of it. Mary is it very interesting to read your posts and about your life! I know one of our friends who has been to meetings of the 'Cooneyites' in England and Ireland and has a good relationship with them. But it seems he hasn't been at meetings you have been at! best wishes to you and your family! I'm just trying to describe the fellowship to Mary, not making a judgment on it. Anyone is free to correct me if I am wrong, or if things are done differently in their part of the world. BTW, did you get the green light from Admin to ask me all those questions? I'm afraid we'll be accused of arguing again!
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Apr 1, 2015 18:23:38 GMT -5
snip The parts that don't line up with the Bible won't bear spiritual fruit but I think you know that. The truth of that became apparent to me over the last few years, and although not everyone who takes the name of Christ gives evidence to it in their life, I've been pleased to see the evidence of more fruit in my life now that I have a pastor who is serious about teaching what the bible actually says. Odd how that works Sadly, the workers in my area are focused on form of ministry and form of meetings, and the fruit of their focus is some old professing folks who don't know how, or if, they are saved--just sure they have the 'one true ministry'.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 18:59:32 GMT -5
Hi maja I'll answer each question separately if that's OK? Here in Wales we didn't really know anything about the f&w's only that there are other groups of people on the world that believe similar to us. We are not a huge organisation but just a small meeting, and there are a few small ones in Ireland. I spoke to someone from Ireland last week, and he knew of the f&ws and said an ex 2x2 attends his meeting! My meeting do know about the beginnings and have told us all about it and about William Irvine etc. They are very open about it! I think the older ones may of heard of the 2x2s and workers but don't really know much about them because when I told then about this site they were asking questions and they think it's good that I'm here they may know more I don't know I'll have to ask them . The older people in our meeting don't have internet etc. Only a tv and radio, just the basics really so won't know too much so they won't have looked it all up about the f&w's! When I first came in here I didn't know what everyone was talking about, I was totally confused with friends overseers, workers and professing etc. It took me a bit to understand what you were all talking about. I was shocked at how organised it all is, and amazed to see how we were classed a outcasts. And even though I'm still not sure but I get the impression we are not very well thought of my some in the fellowship? But we don't feel the same, I'm so glad to meet you all! And everyone else on here! And the people I have spoken to seem really friendly genuine people! I found this site because someone in our meeting came to mine to look up Edward Cooney with me. (she doesn't have the internet) actually we read bits from TTT but didn't click that the site was about people linked to the f&w's as we only really read about Edward. Then I saw bits about the 2x2s so googled then and after reading a few bits found this site and joined! I don't know of any f&w's near me, I've never heard of any anyway. I've never heard people mention them around here at all! I really didn't know anything much until I found this site! I think the thing that has shocked me the most is that some here call it the fellowship. Because my husband had a dream many years ago before he really came to our meeting. And my brother had just died and in my husbands dream my brother told him to come and work with him and that he was in the fellowship! The dream had a lot more in it, and since then things have happened in real life that was associated to his dream but his dream was all about the fellowship. I remember asking my husband what the fellowship could be. I asked in the meeting and they said that the people of God are the fellowship. But I have never seen people call themselves that before! Until now! So I don't see you all as anything else but my friends in God! I hope that you don't see me as to much of an outcast as I believe all Gods people (and I don't mean religion) I mean people who love God from their heart, are all from the same root. Just different branches! Mary P.s. one other thing that has shocked me is that when I came on here I felt like we were like some kind of Amazon tribe that was thought of as being extinct! It seems that a lot of you didn't know we were here either! My thought was: it feels like making contact with intelligent beings from another planet! One difference between your church and 2x2 church is that in 2x2 church TV's are a big no-no. Radios used to banned too, as well as going to a movie theater. Even though most people don't have a TV nowdays, most have computers, DVD players, and they do watch movies. But, one cannot have a meeting in their home if they have a TV in their living room. F&W's don't have Easter or Christmas services either. In fact, you may often hear in meetings held on those days criticism of those who do, because it is assumed that these are the only days that many go to church or think about God. As for Christmas trees, they are frowned on in the US, but I hear it's different in Australia, so it may be different in other places too. I've never seen a Christmas tree in a "professing home." Kids may get Christmas gifts, but it's not talked about openly, so I really don't know (since I wasn't raised in this fellowship). I've heard that in Scotland the Friends used to exchanged small Christmas gifts among each other. You say you were shocked at how organized the 2x2 church is. Based on what an older worker (the same one who knew Edward Cooney) told us, it wasn't always that organized. This worker new some of the first workers and how things were done in the beginning, and lamented to us that "we are getting too organized for our own good." It is reported on TMB that Edward didn't want to be limited by overseers in where he can go - limited to one "field." Our worker had the same conviction, that the Spirit should lead the workers where they need to go. Later, we heard that he was seen by other workers as somewhat of a rebel When we talked to another European worker about certain issues in the church, he told us that the root of the problem is that "there are overseers of overseers." So yes, it is very organized, and decisions are made at a level that most church members are not even aware of, let alone part of. As for what 2x2 folks call themselves and their church, someone correct me, but I don't think that "fellowship" is used much. The usual name is "the Truth," "the meetings," "the friends" or "the way." "When did you meet the Truth?" means "when did you make the first contact with the church?" When somebody leaves the church and comes back, it is said of him that "he came back to meetings" or "he came back to the Truth." When someone is being warned not to leave the church, they may be warned against leaving "the fold" or "the true way." When someone joins the church, it is said that they "professed," because they made a public profession by standing to their feet at a Gospel meeting when invitation was given. Therefore, they become a "professing" person. So, if one wants to know if someone is a member of the church, they would ask: "Does he profess?" or "Is he professing?" Also, they may say someone "came to the Truth" to say they professed. Someone's family may have been "in the way" or "in the truth" for so many generations. Oh, and homes are "professing" if they belong to professing people Some visitors once jokingly said about our big dining table that it's a "good professing table" because it could accommodate all the visiting friends and workers Thank you maja for taking your time and explaining all that to me, it's really interesting!
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 19:14:11 GMT -5
Mary as a present member and a minister in our church I will ask Maja (ex member) a few questions about what she has written. Maja: Do you think it wrong that our fellowship does not have Christmas and Easter services? You have mentioned about the ministry and referred to Edward Cooney and two other workers. Kindly give an outline of your thoughts regarding our ministry which has hundreds of ministers in the US and thousands worldwide and how it should be. Do you feel each should independently go as the spirit moves? you wrote: "When did you meet the Truth?" means "when did you make the first contact with the church?"Yes it does mean that but it almost always means and is understood as when did a person who was a lost sheep and without Christ first meet our Church which was the time when they got Christ/Truth which they previously did not have. Mary: you will find that there are posters on this forum who find it very difficult to accept and acknowledge the experience of members of our fellowship who were without Christ and disappointed in their church experience but find Christ and new life when they come in touch with our ministry and church. These posters negate it with the 'Christ plus .. etc. terminology that have come up. My experience of professing is the same thing as when I accepted Christ, surrendered my life to him, was born again. It was between me and God. I make judgement between right and wrong, between true doctrine and false doctrine. I do not judge individuals who are not part of our fellowship as lost. God knows who is saved and not saved. If someone says they are a Christian and have a relationship with God, I accept that and am happy for them. Whatever any poster may say to negate my statement does not change the truth of it. Mary is it very interesting to read your posts and about your life! I know one of our friends who has been to meetings of the 'Cooneyites' in England and Ireland and has a good relationship with them. But it seems he hasn't been at meetings you have been at! best wishes to you and your family! Thank you also for your explanation your friend won't know me because I've only been to our meetings which are in Wales. I like that you believe that only God says who is saved. I don't hear that on here very often. I totally agree with you!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2015 19:36:04 GMT -5
Noted:
Review005's constant continued posting about doctrine but not one word about my last post.
Rather shows where priorities lie, does it not?
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