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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 7:45:59 GMT -5
Mary the main point in this "discover the truth had a human founder" argument is a STRAWMAN ARGUMENT, pure and simple. A strawman argument is when you misrepresent a person's point of view, and then attack that misrepresentation. No Worker has ever told me the Workers are in a direct line to Jesus, they say the TRUTH hasn't changed from Jesus' time.
In fact it's wrong to say the Truth goes back to Jesus - for Jesus said he was a witness to the Truth. The Truth was throughout the whole of the Old Testament - but not in an uninterrupted line. There's at least a dozen breaks recorded when the authors of the bible felt there was no Truth in the earth. But we don't say the Truth was started by Moses or Samuel for instance. Truth is Truth - it far transcends the earthly bearers of it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 18, 2015 8:06:24 GMT -5
Ross, have you read John Long's account? Have you read it fully? Inspite of your suppositions and theories the reason I state that Irvine is not our founder is that I could not honestly do otherwise. I have but I'm happy to read it again. To be honest I don't see what the big issue is with saying that William Irvine with the help of others got the fellowship established (founded). William had the first mission in the Methodist Church at Nenagh as far as I remember. Who was the chief preacher at the original revival in Nenagh?
From John Long's Journal: AUGUST, 1897: I left Tarbert, and went to my Aunt Kate Davis, in Ballyheigue, where I spent two weeks. William Irvine and Fred Tapp left also and went to Spanish Point, and from there to Nenagh where THE REVIVAL BEGAN. The Revival began in a town which was mostly a Roman population, under very unfavourable circumstances; owing to bad attendances, the Methodist Church was closed, as the Protestants in that town were few in number. At his [Wm Irvine’s] first meeting only five persons attended; but at the closing meeting, there were one hundred present. He fought the battle and won the victory alone in prayer with God in his lodging, when God gave him that promise; "And lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee." Acts 27:24. The Protestant School Mistress, Sister Oakley, was the first to get saved; altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus. Source: www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_johnlong/1longjohn.php#nenagh
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Post by CherieKropp on Mar 18, 2015 8:13:48 GMT -5
Who Started the 2x2 Ministry & Church Who was the Founder? "Whom do men say that I am?" Mark 8:27
(A) Was it started by “a number of people”…? (B) Was it John Long? (1897-1899) (C) Was it Robert Todd? (1897 - 1901) (D) Was it Edward Cooney? (1901) (E) Was it George Walker? (1899) (F) Was it Jack Carroll? (1897) (G) Was it William Irvine? (1897) DEFINITION OF FOUNDER Those who refer to Wm Irvine the "founder" of the 2x2 ministry and church use the word in the context of an "originator." They are not saying that Irvine originated the idea of the apostles traveling through Israel in pairs; or the idea of Christians meeting for fellowship or worship in homes; or any other true Christian doctrine. They are saying that Wm Irvine founded or originated the fellowship of the friends and workers as a body of people. Irvine also founded or originated the idea that ministers of our day should imitate some (but not all) of the instructions Jesus gave to the Apostles on their limited mission to Israel in Matthew 10. While Wm Irvine was still the recognized as a/the leader in the fellowship, the workers and friends freely acknowledged that they were not following a "founder," but were seeking to return to the principles and practices of the New Testament Church. However, it is possible for believers to simultaneously follow a founder and seek to return to the Bible. The two are not mutually exclusive. Many believe the early workers and friends followed a founder as a group or movement, and at the same time they were sincerely trying to return to principles and practices they found in the New Testament. (A) Was it started by “a number of people”…? George Walker wrote: “We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were then members. They were deeply concerned about spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a return to the methods and purposes taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples. This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due time a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the Gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament, i.e., "two by two" and without salary or making appeals for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the Kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment "would be added to them." As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gatherings together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word.” (George Walker’s March 24, 1942 Letter to U.S. Selective Service) (B) Was it John Long? (1899) In August 1897, John Long arranged for a place for Irvine to preach at Nenagh, where the Revival began. On January 1, 1899, John began independently preaching solely on Faith Lines. Regarding June, 1907, John wrote: “Now I come to the saddest events and most painful, trying and unexpected that I met with during my life’s experience; namely having to leave the Go Preacher fellowship; which God used me so much in, FROM ITS BEGINNING, ten years ago…the wrong done to me at that time severed me from some of my near relatives; and robbed me of my privilege, namely the right of fellowship in the mission I helped to start.” (John Long’s Journal June, 1907) John didn't claim to be anything more than a helper to Wm Irvine. (C) Was it Robert Todd? (1897 - 1901) Robert R. Todd and his wife Jeanie left the Faith Mission in November, 1897 to start their own independent mission in Ireland. It was commonly called "Todd's Mission." It was disbanded in 1901 when Todd took a job in Liverpool and went on to become a Congregational minister. Four or five of Todd's workers joined Irvine's mission and at least three joined the Faith Mission. During the years 1897-1901, Irvine, Long and Todd attended some of the same conventions. More about R. R. Todd (D) Was it Edward Cooney? (1901) Edward Cooney wrote: "the man who finally moved me to go to preach was William Irvine.” (Life & Ministry of Edward Cooney by Patricia Roberts, Chapter 3, page 18) Edward Cooney’s statement while under oath: Mr. Justice Darling: Were you the founder of this sect? Cooney: “No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow-preacher, and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognise the name, but others have nicknamed us ‘The Cooneyites.’ I do not like it myself. NOTE: 1913 minus 16 years = 1897. (Impartial Reporter December 18, 1913 ) (E) Was it George Walker? (1899) George Walker was 21 in March, 1898 when he first heard Wm Irvine preach. He made his choice on April 11, 1898 on the platform of a railway station. He became an independent full-time worker on faith lines some time in 1899. More about George Walker (F) Was it Jack Carroll? “William Irvine and Fred Tapp…went to…Nenagh where the REVIVAL BEGAN. The Protestant School Mistress, Sister Oakley, was the first to get saved; altogether upwards of thirty persons of position and note got converted; most of them afterwards gave up all that they had to follow Jesus...At the mission held in Nenagh, a young man named Jack Carroll, also his sister May Carroll, got converted…" (John Long's Journal August 1897) Jack Carroll is shown as entering the work in 1904 on the 1905 Workers List. (G) Was it William Irvine? (1897) “I am the one God used altogether--not "most." NO WILLIAM--NO TESTIMONY.” NOTE: “Testimony” was what Irvine called the 2x2 fellowship. (March 2, 1923 Letter to Eddie Cooney) "I am satisfied that the Testimony was the result of my anointing without any help from others, and in spite of all my so called helpers. For it was a big job to keep them from devouring one another from the beginning. I don’t say this out of vanity or vain glory or in order to despise any who had truly the nature and anointing of God, but I say if I had not been, I don’t see anybody who could or would have done as I did." (June 24, 1921 Letter to Charles & Wife) "I can look back with Joy on it all and say that God and I were the only shapers of the whole Way, Truth and Life which so many are so fond to claim as their own. The work in U.S.A. and Canada was all built on the very little friendships which I had made. Same in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand. And the few know all it meant in putting it into the hearts of workers and turning them up to the music making. It was all God and I from first to last--and all we have seen since has only been like most others going because they were provided for, and a soft imitation of the Early Days. I was as the main spring and the binder together, which was the real strength of The Testimony. And when I had finished the House, it was to find myself out and with God; and the House in possession of Thieves and Robbers--as it was in Jesus' day." (Dec 4, 1922 Letter to Dunbars)
Wm Irvine was the founder and the first according to early workers: Wm Irvine, John Long, Ed Cooney, Wilson McClung, Jack Jackson; and according to the historical accounts of Goodhand Pattison and Alfred Trotter and John Long. 1897 is the date used the most in the historical documents for Irvine’s first mission. According to primary witness John Long, the movement (revival) began in 1897 with Irvine preaching the first mission at Nenagh. In 1897 over 70 people professed in the first two Revival missions Irvine held at Nenagh and Rathmolyon, Ireland. A large number of them went into the work and formed the nucleus of the first group of organized workers. If Wm Irvine had not preached this revival mission, there would have been none who offered for the work from Nenagh. Irvine came first - and after him came then the workers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 8:14:59 GMT -5
I have been reading this tonight about Prince Charles www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/03/prince_charles_visits_washington_d_c_and_kentucky_homeopathy_and_anti_gm.htmlAnd of interest was his belief in one called Laurens van der Post. Charles' journey of “ spiritual discovery” with this "guru and guide" who later was found to “ a fraud, a fantasist, a liar, a serial adulterer, and a paternalist” who “falsified his Army record and inflated his own importance at every possible opportunity.” Heady stuff,particularly that " inflated his own importance at every possible opportunity." It reminds me of Irvine and his groupies. Ah... what you can do with the internet!!! This is true. I had dinner last weekend with a man who insisted on sitting to the right of us all. He said his right ear was damaged. How? He learnt on the internet that the wax in his ear could be treated by LIGHTING A CANDLE in it. The rest was history. Apple's Steve Jobs was another taken in the quackery of the internet. It cost him his life. Sometimes it can cost people a lot more.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 8:33:33 GMT -5
Mary the main point in this "discover the truth had a human founder" argument is a STRAWMAN ARGUMENT, pure and simple. A strawman argument is when you misrepresent a person's point of view, and then attack that misrepresentation. No Worker has ever told me the Workers are in a direct line to Jesus, they say the TRUTH hasn't changed from Jesus' time. In fact it's wrong to say the Truth goes back to Jesus - for Jesus said he was a witness to the Truth. The Truth was throughout the whole of the Old Testament - but not in an uninterrupted line. There's at least a dozen breaks recorded when the authors of the bible felt there was no Truth in the earth. But we don't say the Truth was started by Moses or Samuel for instance. Truth is Truth - it far transcends the earthly bearers of it. I agree with that, except I don't believe the holy spirit is ever left the earth, he's been in people throughout the ages. He brings the truth which is the word of God through Christ to our hearts. It's just that these men had it in them to follow through with strength what they had revealed to their hearts. Yes they went wrong, but all as I see here is people bad mouthing them, I don't know much about William Irvine and as soon as I get the chance I'll read more about him, but what I do know is he tried! As review005 said they gave up all their possessions to follow Jesus. And lived in fields and trusted in God to provide for them. How many of us could do that? They put me to shame! I don't often see the good things about them just the bad! I've always been told Edward Cooney was a humble man and a soft gentle spoken man but strong in God and practiced what he preached! They had good sides too! He didn't even like the name Cooneyites! He put God first not himself! And I know this is true because my uncle heard from him and his people and I saw it in his life! He lived in fields, he didn't have workers houses to go to, he really did live like review005 said he was grateful for a bowl of soup! He never put himself first, all he spoke about was God and Jesus and I he was blessed with God making him strong in the spirit! I would never bad mouth any man of God! God will judge them, just like he'll judge us for what we say about them! Those without sin cast the first stone!
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 18, 2015 8:41:11 GMT -5
One person who does come to mind that might resemble a little of what Ed Cooney and William Irvine lived, would be Uncle Hoa in Vietnam. It seems though, he is facing opposition from followers of people whose honorable leaders were very much like Uncle Hoa. Alvin
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 8:56:40 GMT -5
One person who does come to mind that might resemble a little of what Ed Cooney and William Irvine lived, would be Uncle Hoa in Vietnam. It seems though, he is facing opposition from followers of people whose honorable leaders were very much like Uncle Hoa. Alvin I've never heard of him. I will have to look him up too.
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 9:38:11 GMT -5
I agree with that, except I don't believe the holy spirit is ever left the earth, he's been in people throughout the ages. He brings the truth which is the word of God through Christ to our hearts. It's just that these men had it in them to follow through with strength what they had revealed to their hearts. Yes they went wrong, but all as I see here is people bad mouthing them, I don't know much about William Irvine and as soon as I get the chance I'll read more about him, but what I do know is he tried! As review005 said they gave up all their possessions to follow Jesus. And lived in fields and trusted in God to provide for them. How many of us could do that? They put me to shame! I don't often see the good things about them just the bad! I've always been told Edward Cooney was a humble man and a soft gentle spoken man but strong in God and practiced what he preached! They had good sides too! He didn't even like the name Cooneyites! He put God first not himself! And I know this is true because my uncle heard from him and his people and I saw it in his life! He lived in fields, he didn't have workers houses to go to, he really did live like review005 said he was grateful for a bowl of soup! He never put himself first, all he spoke about was God and Jesus and I he was blessed with God making him strong in the spirit! I would never bad mouth any man of God! God will judge them, just like he'll judge us for what we say about them! Those without sin cast the first stone! Would you question them about doctrine and teachings? Would you criticise if they clearly did something wrong? eg sexual sin The attached link is a good read about questioning Christian leaders. www.gotquestions.org/judge-teachings-leaders.htmlRoscoe I will read that, I don't know about the hearts of people, but I know God will judge all of us! I only know what has been passed down to me and that is to love God with all my heart soul mind and strength, and my neighbour as myself and not to judge others! If anyone breaks man's law and commits a vile act sexual abuse or anything else, then they should be judged first by man's law so they can't carry on. But as for things like adultery or fornication God will judge that! We don't know the reasons for what happens in people's lives. All we can do is live what we believe is right in our hearts and pray to God when we go wrong, and follow Jesus! I wouldn't know God if our wasn't for these men and women! God can judge their faults I'm not here to do that!
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Post by Mary on Mar 18, 2015 9:43:28 GMT -5
Repeat - if I am inspired by the bible to go preaching, am I starting a "new" religion or affirming the "old" ?You can't apply one rule to you and another to everyone one else. Either all who are inspired by the Bible to go preaching are not starting a new religion or they are. You are starting a new religion if you say you have to profess under those in our church and no one else. That makes it a new religion. A new church is the correct term not religion. The workers started a new church.
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Post by mdm on Mar 18, 2015 10:28:50 GMT -5
I agree with that, except I don't believe the holy spirit is ever left the earth, he's been in people throughout the ages. He brings the truth which is the word of God through Christ to our hearts. It's just that these men had it in them to follow through with strength what they had revealed to their hearts. Yes they went wrong, but all as I see here is people bad mouthing them, I don't know much about William Irvine and as soon as I get the chance I'll read more about him, but what I do know is he tried! As review005 said they gave up all their possessions to follow Jesus. And lived in fields and trusted in God to provide for them. How many of us could do that? They put me to shame! I don't often see the good things about them just the bad! I've always been told Edward Cooney was a humble man and a soft gentle spoken man but strong in God and practiced what he preached! They had good sides too! He didn't even like the name Cooneyites! He put God first not himself! And I know this is true because my uncle heard from him and his people and I saw it in his life! He lived in fields, he didn't have workers houses to go to, he really did live like review005 said he was grateful for a bowl of soup! He never put himself first, all he spoke about was God and Jesus and I he was blessed with God making him strong in the spirit! I would never bad mouth any man of God! God will judge them, just like he'll judge us for what we say about them! Those without sin cast the first stone! I've always admired the zeal with which the first workers went out to preach. But, there were and are many preachers and missionaries who "go out in faith" and who are not workers. "Going out in faith" is admirable, but not exclusive to workers. That's interesting about Edward Cooney. A worker who knew him before he was excommunicated told us that Edward was opposite of humble, and that often in his sermons he would say "...and I, Edward Cooney say that..." Maybe his recollection was incorrect, maybe he was finding excuses for those who excommunicated him, or perhaps Edward changed after the excommunication. No, we shouldn't cast stones and take away life, but we do have the responsibility to test the spirits, examine teachings and practices, discern between right and wrong, truthful and dishonest, beneficial and harmful.
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Post by mdm on Mar 18, 2015 11:02:46 GMT -5
Roscoe I will read that, I don't know about the hearts of people, but I know God will judge all of us! I only know what has been passed down to me and that is to love God with all my heart soul mind and strength, and my neighbour as myself and not to judge others! If anyone breaks man's law and commits a vile act sexual abuse or anything else, then they should be judged first by man's law so they can't carry on. But as for things like adultery or fornication God will judge that! We don't know the reasons for what happens in people's lives. All we can do is live what we believe is right in our hearts and pray to God when we go wrong, and follow Jesus! I wouldn't know God if our wasn't for these men and women! God can judge their faults I'm not here to do that! So you don't see hypocrisy in allowing the sexually immoral to remain in the ministry whose teaching should be based on New Testament which clearly speaks against sexual immorality? Or do you not see hypocrisy in allowing the sexually immoral to remain in the ministry that claims they are the only preachers who live what they preach? And, can you truly trust the ministry that sends those who are sexually immoral into your home as trusted preachers?
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Post by mdm on Mar 18, 2015 11:07:47 GMT -5
One person who does come to mind that might resemble a little of what Ed Cooney and William Irvine lived, would be Uncle Hoa in Vietnam. It seems though, he is facing opposition from followers of people whose honorable leaders were very much like Uncle Hoa. Alvin I've never heard of him. I will have to look him up too. professing.proboards.com/thread/20852/vietnam
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 11:14:16 GMT -5
I agree with that, except I don't believe the holy spirit is ever left the earth, he's been in people throughout the ages. He brings the truth which is the word of God through Christ to our hearts. It's just that these men had it in them to follow through with strength what they had revealed to their hearts. Yes they went wrong, but all as I see here is people bad mouthing them, I don't know much about William Irvine and as soon as I get the chance I'll read more about him, but what I do know is he tried! As review005 said they gave up all their possessions to follow Jesus. And lived in fields and trusted in God to provide for them. How many of us could do that? They put me to shame! I don't often see the good things about them just the bad! I've always been told Edward Cooney was a humble man and a soft gentle spoken man but strong in God and practiced what he preached! They had good sides too! He didn't even like the name Cooneyites! He put God first not himself! And I know this is true because my uncle heard from him and his people and I saw it in his life! He lived in fields, he didn't have workers houses to go to, he really did live like review005 said he was grateful for a bowl of soup! He never put himself first, all he spoke about was God and Jesus and I he was blessed with God making him strong in the spirit! I would never bad mouth any man of God! God will judge them, just like he'll judge us for what we say about them! Those without sin cast the first stone! I've always admired the zeal with which the first workers went out to preach. But, there were and are many preachers and missionaries who "go out in faith" and who are not workers. "Going out in faith" is admirable, but not exclusive to workers. That's interesting about Edward Cooney. A worker who knew him before he was excommunicated told us that Edward was opposite of humble, and that often in his sermons he would say "...and I, Edward Cooney say that..." Maybe his recollection was incorrect, maybe he was finding excuses for those who excommunicated him, or perhaps Edward changed after the excommunication. No, we shouldn't cast stones and take away life, but we do have the responsibility to test the spirits, examine teachings and practices, discern between right and wrong, truthful and dishonest, beneficial and harmful. I absolutely agree, I don't believe you get to heaven through one religion, God looks at the heart. How can we be so judgemental as to say we're right and everyone else is wrong? How do I know that the person praying in the church down the road hasn't got a better heart than me? Just because I don't believe in going to church it doesn't mean I'm any better than anyone! I'm a sinner just the same. It's just that I know God because of these people and their faith. So I look at it as they gave up their lives to follow Jesus, and God will judge what wrong they have done. As he will judge me too! And it's not just when I go to heaven, it's now in earth, when I see people living a whole lot better than me, or when my conscience pricks me and I don't listen God is judging me daily! As for Edward, my uncle knew him after he was excommunicated so maybe he changed. I don't know, I didn't know him personally so I can't comment. I'm only repeating what I've been told about him. But my uncle had good things to say about him, then again he liked to bring the good out in people :-)
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Post by maryhig on Mar 18, 2015 11:26:53 GMT -5
Roscoe I will read that, I don't know about the hearts of people, but I know God will judge all of us! I only know what has been passed down to me and that is to love God with all my heart soul mind and strength, and my neighbour as myself and not to judge others! If anyone breaks man's law and commits a vile act sexual abuse or anything else, then they should be judged first by man's law so they can't carry on. But as for things like adultery or fornication God will judge that! We don't know the reasons for what happens in people's lives. All we can do is live what we believe is right in our hearts and pray to God when we go wrong, and follow Jesus! I wouldn't know God if our wasn't for these men and women! God can judge their faults I'm not here to do that! So you don't see hypocrisy in allowing the sexually immoral to remain in the ministry whose teaching should be based on New Testament which clearly speaks against sexual immorality? Or do you not see hypocrisy in allowing the sexually immoral to remain in the ministry that claims they are the only preachers who live what they preach? And, can you truly trust the ministry that sends those who are sexually immoral into your home as trusted preachers? It depends what you mean by sexually immoral? If I was in a ministry where someone was sexually immoral in a way that it pricked my conscience and they were professing to be a minister of God and they were preaching to me, then I would confront them yes, to their face on their own. You will know if God is still with them because they will have strength in the spirit, and you'll know in your heart if it is right or wrong. But I would help them if they needed help! Oh and they wouldn't be in a ministry long if they were living wrong, because the people wouldn't listen!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 16:00:21 GMT -5
My family knew Cooney. They did not speak well of the man, and believe me, my family were fairly generous in their opinions of people.
They saw Cooney as being a loose cannon; wanting preeminence, self important, often contrary, proud, self-willed and finally, a bit of a nut-cake.
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Post by snow on Mar 18, 2015 17:05:24 GMT -5
My family knew Cooney. They did not speak well of the man, and believe me, my family were fairly generous in their opinions of people. They saw Cooney as being a loose cannon; wanting preeminence, self important, often contrary, proud, self-willed and finally, a bit of a nut-cake. Kinda like Irvine you mean?
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Post by blacksheep on Mar 18, 2015 18:15:55 GMT -5
Seems that the reason for my confusion was that when I heard the word "way" I was taking it a different way than the way it was meant. When they said this way goes way back to the shores of Galilee, I thought they meant that the way they were talking about was the way that the people in the way use it to mean the way. I was so confused by the different ways they used the word way, that I finally just got out of the way. Now that I'm no longer in the way, I'm way happier. You see, sometimes way means method. Sometimes way means the fellowship. Sometimes way means Jesus. They claimed to know which way they were using way, but I was never sure which way they were using way. I knew one worker who didn't weigh much, but he carried a lot of weight in the way and he always preached that the way was from the beginning. Does this help?
PS: My 90 year old mother is still in the way, she's "Old and in the Way"!
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Post by slowtosee on Mar 18, 2015 18:43:24 GMT -5
Way go go blacksheep. There is a hockey team here, called WAYWAY Wolverines, after the name of their reserve , waywayseecapoo. www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enCA528US539&q=wAY+WAY+HOCKEY+That is how I heard it too, and seriously now, when we questioned an older worker about some of the corruption that we were all very aware of, he advised us that we should just lay low, not raise a fuss about it, and recognize that "there is a way within the way", and he explained that "the way" has been corrupted, but that there is a way within the way. Alvin
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Post by Gene on Mar 18, 2015 18:59:47 GMT -5
-=-=-=-=-=-=
At the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th century there were needy, sincere people (men and women) who were disillusioned with their Christian experience and life within denominational-ism of the day. In faith, raw courage and amidst much opposition they stepped out of it and found Christ and spiritual life.
William Irvine was prominent, amongst the oldest of them and had a strong leader personality. He was a leader for some years. Before the first decade of the century had ended members were understanding that he has lost the anointing he once had. By 1914 he was separated from the movement and then embarked on what seems to be a delusional mission to Jerusalem. Meanwhile the movement rapidly expanded in the decades that followed in countries around the globe....it wasn't built on nor did it depend on William Irvine.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
So, then, the present F&W fellowship grew from a movement that began around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries when a group of men and women stepped out of the denominationalism of the day, William Irvine serving as a leader in the group for some years. I can live with that.
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Post by smokeyjoe on Mar 18, 2015 19:22:40 GMT -5
I spoke to my parents about the beginnings many times and I come to the conclusion that everything in this world has a life cycle. It starts with a pure idea and moves on from there and like plants in their season flower, fruit and die away to be replaced by another. Governments do the same, Empires do it and so it makes sense to believe that 'The Truth' has a life cycle - possibly there was one before the current version which came and went. I think the current 'Truth' is on the way out - burdened down with stuff that doesnt concern ones spiritual well being plus often devoid of the spirits guidence its hardly surprising. Well I just thought I would put these thoughts into the mix... Yes I have heard that the early men were not such nice caracters and indeed the whole thing rather went to their heads which is a great sign of human nature!
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2015 19:48:40 GMT -5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can think of some churches that have lost the plot when it comes to the gospel and people leave and move to other churches. Arguably, it's happening with the 2x2's over the past 30 years, thousands of folk have moved to other Christian churches due to teaching they believe is wrong in the 2x2's. Not to say that God hasn't saved plenty of folk in the 2x2 church or other churches. If a church loses their way through poor leadership or teaching people move on. The very fact that the moving to other churches as happened with the 2x2's over the past 30 years," speaks volumes as to the effect of Parker's book, The Secret Sect.
The Secret Sect was published in 1982, 33 years ago.
That exodus from the 2x2's did not happen, as you intimate, because the 2x2's lost the plot."
"Lost of the plot" is what some people want to believe for the reason they left.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2015 20:26:17 GMT -5
I've always admired the zeal with which the first workers went out to preach. But, there were and are many preachers and missionaries who "go out in faith" and who are not workers. "Going out in faith" is admirable, but not exclusive to workers. That's interesting about Edward Cooney. A worker who knew him before he was excommunicated told us that Edward was opposite of humble, and that often in his sermons he would say "...and I, Edward Cooney say that..." Maybe his recollection was incorrect, maybe he was finding excuses for those who excommunicated him, or perhaps Edward changed after the excommunication. No, we shouldn't cast stones and take away life, but we do have the responsibility to test the spirits, examine teachings and practices, discern between right and wrong, truthful and dishonest, beneficial and harmful. From one story I heard about Edward Cooney , -he was invited by a minister to speak at the church in the town where Edward Cooney was preaching.
When Eddy begin to preach at the church he basically told the people there that they were all going to hell!
Diplomacy didn't seem to be Eddy's forte!
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 18, 2015 20:36:45 GMT -5
This is how William Irvine can be the founder of Jesus' apostolic ministry . The same way Queen Victoria got to be the founder of the English line of kings and queens. There were kings and Queens of England existed before Queen Victoria so she wasn't the first one/Queen. I hope Queen Victoria doesn't claim she is the FIRST or FOUNDER of all the Queens before her.
It seemed William Irvine did this by claiming after he was excommunicated by the senior 2x2 workers in 1914 that he was the first one to start/founded Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry. He was saying Without him there wouldn't be 2x2 group. God was preparing John Long, Edward Cooney, George Walker, Jack family at the same time, so without William Irvine there wouldn't be any problem. William Irvine was excommunicated from the 2x2 ministry in 1914 and the 2x2 group has grown leaps and bounds without him as a 2x2 worker.You missed the point, Nathan.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 18, 2015 21:09:36 GMT -5
This is my experience: I was never taught that our fellowship has no human founder. When I heard the 'Shores of Galilee' spoken about I understood it that we seek to pattern ourselves on what was lived and taught on the shores of Galilee not that there is some line going back to Galilee. I personally don't see any value in a 'generation by generation' line back to Christ. Just looking at the Catholic Church teaches me that. I also know because of what I have heard with my own ears when I was young from old people of Irish stock and what I later read in John Long's journal and John Patterson's writing that our fellowship has no human founder. I know and knew about William Irvine and I know that he is not the founder of our fellowship. He was a man that was prominent amongst a number of men and woman who were the first workers/the first in the ministry of our fellowship. From what I read it seems he was a worldwide Overseer. It was a good move in 1914 for a number of regional Overseers to be appointed. I know that for just a few years he was a leader but he is not a founder. I also know that before the first decade of the 20th century had closed there were members of the fellowship who knew William had lost the spirit/anointing he once had. It is therefore no surprise that in 1914 he no longer remained part of the fellowship. I don't know but I wonder if he became mentally unbalanced? One reason for stating that is he thought he was going to be one of the witnesses to be slain in the streets of Jerusalem that is mentioned in the Book of Revelation. William Irvine was not the founder of our fellowship, he was a leader.
Because of that the fellowship did not 'fall over;/collapse in 1914. Rather the decades that followed were decades of rapid growth in the fellowship with many thousands being added and workers going to new lands where they had never been before. I do not believe and never did understand or believe that our workers went in a line back to the 'Shores of Galilee'. I knew they were a group of men and women who in raw courage and faith stepped away from the denominations of the time. They were not finding spiritual life and Christ in those denominations. They weren't perfect, they made mistakes, our ministry and fellowship has learnt as time has passed but I stand in awe of what those men and women did. Sleeping in haystacks or under a hedge, eating a turnip they pulled from a field for their meal. Faced strong and physical opposition from those of the denominations they stepped away from. I knew about Irvine, I knew about Cooney from teenage years or before. I read the Secret Sect book and wonder what all the fuss was about? When I listened to the Gospel I know God gave me a faith and a new life in Christ that I didn't have previously. Anything about Cooney, Irvine or any other worker was not relevant to the new relationship with God. Review005, I do not not know your age, but let me just say that you were most fortunate to have heard at such a young age about William Irvine.
Unfortunately, many, if not most of the people professing, did NOT have the information that you had.
Even their own parents and grandparents didn't have that information about the origins of the "Truth."
Although I did know it by hearing bits of conversation between my parents, my own brother had not heard those same bits of conversation.
As an adult, he was extremely upset when he found out. His wife was also equally upset. As a second generation 2x2's, neither of them knew.
Now why would they & so many others in the 2x2's have been so terribly upset if they NOT been led to believe that the "Truth" had continued in an unbroken line back to the original apostles of Jesus time?
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 19, 2015 1:18:19 GMT -5
The very fact that the moving to other churches as happened with the 2x2's over the past 30 years," speaks volumes as to the effect of Parker's book, The Secret Sect.
The Secret Sect was published in 1982, 33 years ago.
That exodus from the 2x2's did not happen, as you intimate, because the 2x2's lost the plot."
"Lost of the plot" is what some people want to believe for the reason they left.
Agree - the Secret Sect had a major impact. The internet also had a massive impact allowing people to communicate about issues and documents being available online. While some churches lose the plot, I don't think much changed in the 80's and 90's in terms of 2x2 teaching - people just became aware of the beginnings You said, "thousands of folk have moved to other Christian churches due to teaching they believe is wrong in the 2x2's."
Why did so many move to other Christian churches lately but did NOT move to other churches before that time?
If it was because they believed the teaching was wrong in the 2x2's, why didn't they leave & go to other churches before that time?
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Post by fixit on Mar 19, 2015 3:00:15 GMT -5
I reject nothing of Mary's post. If what she has written is her experience, that is ok with me. It is very different from my experience but just because it is different does not mean I will make a post about it in the manner which she has chosen to do about mine. My experience is more like Mary's than Review005's. I don't recall hearing from workers anything about the fellowship's beginnings that lines up with the historical record. Perhaps that is still to come?
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Post by Greg on Mar 19, 2015 5:29:59 GMT -5
Way go go blacksheep. There is a hockey team here, called WAYWAY Wolverines, after the name of their reserve , waywayseecapoo. www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enCA528US539&q=wAY+WAY+HOCKEY+That is how I heard it too, and seriously now, when we questioned an older worker about some of the corruption that we were all very aware of, he advised us that we should just lay low, not raise a fuss about it, and recognize that "there is a way within the way", and he explained that "the way" has been corrupted, but that there is a way within the way. Alvin The way within the way. The true way in a corrupted way. That would be most churches, right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2015 6:48:02 GMT -5
Way go go blacksheep. There is a hockey team here, called WAYWAY Wolverines, after the name of their reserve , waywayseecapoo. www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enCA528US539&q=wAY+WAY+HOCKEY+That is how I heard it too, and seriously now, when we questioned an older worker about some of the corruption that we were all very aware of, he advised us that we should just lay low, not raise a fuss about it, and recognize that "there is a way within the way", and he explained that "the way" has been corrupted, but that there is a way within the way. Alvin The way within the way. The true way in a corrupted way. That would be most churches, right? I suppose it is fairly safe to reach that conclusion, since none of them is perfect. They all come short in one way or another. We love the perfect way of God, and the "Way" is Jesus not any particular church in my opinion. Some may be closely aligned or more aligned than others, but none is absolutely and perfectly aligned and "perfect."IMO.
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