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Post by slowtosee on Feb 23, 2015 9:54:21 GMT -5
One of his points was that McLean s article said that the reason for the tragedy of so many native women being killed was because of racism by whites, and the statistics show that the killers are 88??? Percent people of their own race . He acknowledgefa huge terrible problem, but problem won't be solved by simply playing the "racist " card over and over. Statistics and facts don't back up the accusations. Again, did he ever say that racism was not present in winnipeg, like you stated? Alvin
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 10:02:33 GMT -5
Ragheb made very clear that apostates are not killed in Canada. How about in the power vacuum of Iraq and Syria? How about on a beach in Libya? I was addressing your false statement that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 10:09:49 GMT -5
One of his points was that McLean s article said that the reason for the tragedy of so many native women being killed was because of racism by whites, and the statistics show that the killers are 88??? Percent people of their own race . He acknowledgefa huge terrible problem, but problem won't be solved by simply playing the "racist " card over and over. Statistics and facts don't back up the accusations. Again, did he ever say that racism was not present in winnipeg, like you stated? Alvin To the people who are victims of racism he comes across as a "denier" of the problem. It's not what he said, but what he didn't say. There's no impetus there to collaborate and work to a solution. Compare Levant's response to the article to that of the mayor of Winnipeg. Levant is basically playing to people who want nothing to do with the problem, and want to pretend that all is right with the world. The subtext of the video "no racism here, folks. Move along." He doesn't have to say the actual words; the victims of racism "get" what he is saying.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 23, 2015 10:18:55 GMT -5
OK. So he didn't say that racism was not present. Thanks Alvin
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 10:23:27 GMT -5
One of his points was that McLean s article said that the reason for the tragedy of so many native women being killed was because of racism by whites, and the statistics show that the killers are 88??? Percent people of their own race . He acknowledgefa huge terrible problem, but problem won't be solved by simply playing the "racist " card over and over. Statistics and facts don't back up the accusations. Again, did he ever say that racism was not present in winnipeg, like you stated? Alvin Using the words "playing the racist card" is quite demeaning. Using the word "accusations" also means that you're not listening. Remember, this is not a dispute between equals. Don't expect complete rationality from the victims of racism. Try to hear what they are saying. If there is one murder due to racism that is too many. But as I mentioned, murder of vulnerable young aboriginal women by whites is not the only aspect of the problem. Percentage analyses in order to shift blame are ridiculous. What if 99.9% of the murders were by aboriginals? Hey, 99.9% of the water that came into my house last year was carried safely through tap. But .1% of that water caused a flood in my basement. Why should I worry about that though, because 99.9% came in safely? Be careful about misleading percentage-based arguments. If the reporter twisted facts then that indeed is an issue. I'll have to read the article to see if I draw the same conclusion, so I'm not critiquing that part of Levant's rant. If she twisted a fact, then just say that, don't get into all the window dressing, that says "I DON'T CARE".
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 10:30:30 GMT -5
OK. So he didn't say that racism was not present. Thanks Alvin He didn't say it, but the implication is obvious. Incidentally, my comment was "come on, no racism in Winnipeg, who are you kidding?" I still think that is a fair response, as it is a rhetorical question. He doesn't have to literally say it, we get it. Do you think Levant is accepting that there is a problem with indigenous relations in Winnipeg? Is he being constructive?
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 10:33:33 GMT -5
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 13:07:45 GMT -5
I've read a substantial part of the article. I heard Levant's reaction first, so based on what he said I thought I'd see an article focused on the murder of aboriginal young women by white "johns". But the account of the murders is straight-forward and factual and nothing is made pro- or con- of the race of the perpetrators. To my reading the article looks at the broad root causes of native poverty and crime, and how racism plays into those root causes. Compare the reaction of the mayor to that of Ezra Levant. From - www.macleans.ca/news/canada/in-winnipeg-a-meaningful-stand-against-racism/So, some of you are saying this is a bad article? I have to say, since drilling down on this that Levant looks worse than ever, to me.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 13:24:45 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 14:04:47 GMT -5
How about in the power vacuum of Iraq and Syria? How about on a beach in Libya? I was addressing your false statement that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada. I never wrote that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada. What concerns me is that Muslims in Canada are taught that the penalty for apostasy is death. When young people hear that on a regular basis from their respected leaders, is it any wonder they cut Christian heads off on a Libyan beach?
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 14:11:55 GMT -5
Don't worry, there is no "upset" in anything I post here. I like to be direct though. Of course. You're Dutch.
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Post by snow on Feb 23, 2015 14:14:36 GMT -5
I was addressing your false statement that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada. I never wrote that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada. What concerns me is that Muslims in Canada are taught that the penalty for apostasy is death. When young people hear that on a regular basis from their respected leaders, is it any wonder they cut Christian heads off on a Libyan beach? While I do understand some will be radicalized, it still seems to me that we aren't giving the young Muslims of the world any credit for being able to think for themselves. We see it in the Christian world when parents and respected leaders spout stuff that is immoral. We see them turning away and saying, 'no that just isn't right'. It takes a certain type of personality to want to get involved in that kind of thing in the first place. Many are just as horrified as we are at what is being done in the name of their religion. Just like Christians have learned to ignore some of the more horrific commandments in the Bible, Muslims have also learned to ignore the horrific commandments in the Quran. Those who already have a tendency to do these things are attracted, no question. But we also have to ask what attracted young Christians to the KKK and still do for that matter?
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 15:05:48 GMT -5
Snow, do you think there are as many Christian teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers as there are Muslim teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers?
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 16:57:52 GMT -5
If American textbooks referred to Muslims as apes and swine, would it be considered "Islamophobic"?
From: International Religious Freedom Report for 2012 - SAUDI ARABIA
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Post by snow on Feb 23, 2015 18:24:03 GMT -5
Snow, do you think there are as many Christian teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers as there are Muslim teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers? No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill.
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 19:52:30 GMT -5
Snow, do you think there are as many Christian teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers as there are Muslim teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers? No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill. I think we should be concerned about all religious incitement, but to turn a blind eye to the Islamic incitement that has been widespread for decades is not helpful. Accusing folks of "Islamophobia" when they raise concerns is disingenuous, while millions of Islamic kids are being taught in school to hate. What kind of evil brainwashing is needed to make a seven year old girl kill herself for Allah? www.ctvnews.ca/world/girl-suicide-bomber-kills-4-wounds-46-at-nigerian-market-1.2248721
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 21:31:16 GMT -5
This is really sad...
One thing these parents should do is insist that the Islamic leaders and preachers stop preaching "us and them" anti-western rhetoric.
They should also forbid teaching kids the evil blasphemy laws.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 22:07:20 GMT -5
I never wrote that Muslim apostates are killed in Canada. What concerns me is that Muslims in Canada are taught that the penalty for apostasy is death. When young people hear that on a regular basis from their respected leaders, is it any wonder they cut Christian heads off on a Libyan beach? While I do understand some will be radicalized, it still seems to me that we aren't giving the young Muslims of the world any credit for being able to think for themselves. We see it in the Christian world when parents and respected leaders spout stuff that is immoral. We see them turning away and saying, 'no that just isn't right'. It takes a certain type of personality to want to get involved in that kind of thing in the first place. Many are just as horrified as we are at what is being done in the name of their religion. Just like Christians have learned to ignore some of the more horrific commandments in the Bible, Muslims have also learned to ignore the horrific commandments in the Quran. Those who already have a tendency to do these things are attracted, no question. But we also have to ask what attracted young Christians to the KKK and still do for that matter? Last week I listened to a panel on the CBC discuss this issue, and it emerged that the young Arabs are radicalising themselves. The imam on the discussion panel and other folks were discussing the difficulty in pulling them back to more moderate views. That makes more sense to me. Some of my kids' and their friends' views are diametrically opposite mine. Guess what... they think and act for themselves. (I've also learned a lot from them). I think we have to stop blaming the Imams and the religion and hold people accountable for their actions.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 22:09:10 GMT -5
This is really sad... One thing these parents should do is insist that the Islamic leaders and preachers stop preaching "us and them" anti-western rhetoric. They should also forbid teaching kids the evil blasphemy laws. It's sad, but saying it's the Imams might not be the reason.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 23, 2015 22:32:18 GMT -5
No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill. I think we should be concerned about all religious incitement, but to turn a blind eye to the Islamic incitement that has been widespread for decades is not helpful. Accusing folks of "Islamophobia" when they raise concerns is disingenuous, while millions of Islamic kids are being taught in school to hate. What kind of evil brainwashing is needed to make a seven year old girl kill herself for Allah? www.ctvnews.ca/world/girl-suicide-bomber-kills-4-wounds-46-at-nigerian-market-1.2248721Which of these statements do you think is more accurate? - The bombing was caused by Boko Haram. - The bombing was caused by Muslims. The first statement, the second, or both are equally accurate?
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 22:40:18 GMT -5
I think we should be concerned about all religious incitement, but to turn a blind eye to the Islamic incitement that has been widespread for decades is not helpful. Accusing folks of "Islamophobia" when they raise concerns is disingenuous, while millions of Islamic kids are being taught in school to hate. What kind of evil brainwashing is needed to make a seven year old girl kill herself for Allah? www.ctvnews.ca/world/girl-suicide-bomber-kills-4-wounds-46-at-nigerian-market-1.2248721Which of these statements do you think is more accurate? - The bombing was caused by Boko Haram. - The bombing was caused by Muslims. The first statement, the second, or both are equally accurate? I expect the Islamic culture the girl was raised in convinced her that Allah needed her services.
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 22:47:45 GMT -5
This is really sad... One thing these parents should do is insist that the Islamic leaders and preachers stop preaching "us and them" anti-western rhetoric. They should also forbid teaching kids the evil blasphemy laws. It's sad, but saying it's the Imams might not be the reason. I think social media and the internet are a factor, but the excerpts from Islamic sermons that I posted would go a long way towards radicalisation. Did you watch those clips? I'd like to know what you think of these sermons of "the religion of peace". The Imams should stay out of politics altogether. The non-Islamic public have had to sacrifice some freedoms as a result of Islamist attacks, so it's only reasonable to restrict the Imams from preaching anti-western them-and-us hate sermons.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 23, 2015 22:56:05 GMT -5
It's sad, but saying it's the Imams might not be the reason. I think social media and the internet are a factor, but the excerpts from Islamic sermons that I posted would go a long way towards radicalisation. Did you watch those clips? I'd like to know what you think of these sermons of "the religion of peace". The Imams should stay out of politics altogether.The non-Islamic public have had to sacrifice some freedoms as a result of Islamist attacks, so it's only reasonable to restrict the Imams from preaching anti-western them-and-us hate sermons. The Christian ministers should stay out of politics altogether.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 23, 2015 23:23:22 GMT -5
Snow, do you think there are as many Christian teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers as there are Muslim teachers and leaders encouraging their people to kill unbelievers? No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill. Thanks snow,
One of my immediate concerns about the Je suis Charlie incident was there would be a big retaliation against Muslims.
Now I see it happening and right here on TMB by people who can't understand what they are inciting against innocent people.
The same kinds of rhetoric has long been used against one group or another.
Nero used it against Christians.
The Nazis used it against the Jews.
The Christians crusaders used it against the Muslims.
It is insidious, it develops slowly and snowballs.
Then when it is all over everyone says "never again" then promptly forgets it the next time.
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Post by fixit on Feb 23, 2015 23:27:29 GMT -5
I think social media and the internet are a factor, but the excerpts from Islamic sermons that I posted would go a long way towards radicalisation. Did you watch those clips? I'd like to know what you think of these sermons of "the religion of peace". The Imams should stay out of politics altogether.The non-Islamic public have had to sacrifice some freedoms as a result of Islamist attacks, so it's only reasonable to restrict the Imams from preaching anti-western them-and-us hate sermons. The Christian ministers should stay out of politics altogether.
I agree. A lot of people are getting hurt because religious leaders preach hatred, and teach that the believers have a duty to fight for God. The religious leaders should themselves go and die for God rather than sending young people to do it.
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Post by snow on Feb 23, 2015 23:29:57 GMT -5
No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill. I think we should be concerned about all religious incitement, but to turn a blind eye to the Islamic incitement that has been widespread for decades is not helpful. Accusing folks of "Islamophobia" when they raise concerns is disingenuous, while millions of Islamic kids are being taught in school to hate. What kind of evil brainwashing is needed to make a seven year old girl kill herself for Allah? www.ctvnews.ca/world/girl-suicide-bomber-kills-4-wounds-46-at-nigerian-market-1.2248721Yes all religious incitement is dangerous and should be avoided because it will more than likely hurt more innocent people then the ones that are causing the problems in the long run. We do need to pay attention to what is happening within Islam at the moment, but we need to handle it very carefully. It has the potential of making martyrs of those that are the most extreme and that will make matters worse. The case of the 7 year old girl becoming a suicide bomber is a combination of things. Yes it's a brainwashing and promises of a better level of heaven, but it's also an escape for some from a desperate life situation. In other cases, it's not something she had any choice in and that is horrific in and of itself. There are so many layers of complexity in this situation. Having everyone posting stuff endlessly about how terrible Muslims are isn't the answer though. The extremists are the issue but it's getting more and more to be broad brushing to include the whole Muslim faith. Is that a good thing?
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Post by snow on Feb 23, 2015 23:37:19 GMT -5
No I don't. Christianity for the most part has moved past that phase of their religious history. I do believe there are quite a few right now though that are definitely saying things about Muslims that will incite some people to act on it. My deeply religious birth family are constantly posting stuff about how horrible Muslims are and how awful Islam is as a religion. All that stuff that keeps streaming across the social media and in forums like this is definitely going to motivate some people to retaliate against Muslims and it won't matter to them that they might be peace loving, innocent people who just happen to worship Allah. Do you really think all this 'awareness' the way it's being presented is a good way of handling a very delicate situation? You are already seeing Christians holding protests outside of mosques. Just how long do you think these are going to peaceful given the fear and the negative message that is being put out there? The fear mongering and the painting of the whole religion as evil like some are doing is going to push some people to kill. Thanks snow,
One of my immediate concerns about the Je suis Charlie incident was there would be a big retaliation against Muslims.
Now I see it happening and right here on TMB by people who can't understand what they are inciting against innocent people.
The same kinds of rhetoric has long been used against one group or another.
Nero used it against Christians.
The Nazis used it against the Jews.
The Christians crusaders used it against the Muslims.
It is insidious, it develops slowly and snowballs.
Then when it is all over everyone says "never again" then promptly forgets it the next time. Yes and when it's over and people start to get their minds back, they look back at what they have done, horrified that they got caught up in the fear mongering etc. That is what happened to German people with Hitler and for a long time they have bore that knowledge of what was done. People can be whipped up into a frenzy and do things they would never have done otherwise. I just hope this doesn't happen in this case. We have two huge religions at each other's throats at the moment. That is desperately dangerous.
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Post by slowtosee on Feb 23, 2015 23:49:59 GMT -5
796 732 43 21 AA The man with the PowerPoint presentation is miffed. He is speaking to a large aboriginal conference and some of the attendees, including a few who hold high office, have straggled in. "I can't stand people who are late," he says into the microphone. "Indian Time doesn't cut it." Some giggle, but no one is quite sure how far he is going to go. Just sit back and listen: "My first rule for success is 'Show up on time.' My No. 2 rule for success is follow Rule No. 1." "If your life sucks, it's because you suck." "Quit your sniffling." "Join the real world - go to school or get a job." "Get off of welfare. Get off your butt." He pauses, seeming to gauge whether he dare, then does. "People often say to me, 'How you doin'?' Geez - I'm working with Indians - what do you think?" Now they are openly laughing ... applauding. Clarence Louie is everything that was advertised - and more. "Our ancestors worked for a living," he says. "So should you." www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/indian-time-doesnt-cut-it-for-innovative-chief-with-on-the-edge-humour/article1103739/“We all need to be scolded — I still get scolded; the old timers scold me. Everyone needs a kick in the rear now and then — it doesn’t matter who you are.” What makes Louie different is his refusal to place all the blame outside the reserve, using past injustices and historic misery as an excuse to wallow in poverty. If he has barbed words for the colonial past which sent Canada’s reserves into a downward spiral, Louie often saves his sharpest criticism for the defeatist attitude which continues to hobble Canada’s natives. “If your life sucks, it’s because you suck,” he’s been heard to say at First Nations speaking events. Ouch. It gets better: Louie doesn’t shy away from telling other chiefs and band members that the days of blaming the federal government for your woes are over — and the time has come to help yourselves. “With Idle No more, it’s great to talk about treaty issues and land claims and the environment and all that,” he tells the Sun. “But there also has to be talk about jobs and the idleness of unemployment and the great depression of unemployment rates that exist on most of our First Nations. That’s half the problem, right there.” It’s one thing to have a sharp tongue — but Louie has also shown he has one of the sharpest minds in Canadian politics. The arid reserve is home to 470 band members and holds the distinction of owning the most businesses per capita of any first nation in Canada — so many that it has imported workers from 35 less-affluent bands. Under Louie’s leadership, which started in 1985, Osoyoos Indian Band has gone from rags to riches, from Indian Affairs bankruptcy management to economic self-sufficiency. “We all need to be scolded — I still get scolded; the old timers scold me. Everyone needs a kick in the rear now and then — it doesn’t matter who you are.” What makes Louie different is his refusal to place all the blame outside the reserve, using past injustices and historic misery as an excuse to wallow in poverty. If he has barbed words for the colonial past which sent Canada’s reserves into a downward spiral, Louie often saves his sharpest criticism for the defeatist attitude which continues to hobble Canada’s natives. “If your life sucks, it’s because you suck,” he’s been heard to say at First Nations speaking events. Ouch. It gets better: Louie doesn’t shy away from telling other chiefs and band members that the days of blaming the federal government for your woes are over — and the time has come to help yourselves. “With Idle No more, it’s great to talk about treaty issues and land claims and the environment and all that,” he tells the Sun. “But there also has to be talk about jobs and the idleness of unemployment and the great depression of unemployment rates that exist on most of our First Nations. That’s half the problem, right there.” It’s one thing to have a sharp tongue — but Louie has also shown he has one of the sharpest mind “We all need to be scolded — I still get scolded; the old timers scold me. Everyone needs a kick in the rear now and then — it doesn’t matter who you are.” What makes Louie different is his refusal to place all the blame outside the reserve, using past injustices and historic misery as an excuse to wallow in poverty. If he has barbed words for the colonial past which sent Canada’s reserves into a downward spiral, Louie often saves his sharpest criticism for the defeatist attitude which continues to hobble Canada’s natives. “If your life sucks, it’s because you suck,” he’s been heard to say at First Nations speaking events. Ouch. It gets better: Louie doesn’t shy away from telling other chiefs and band members that the days of blaming the federal government for your woes are over — and the time has come to help yourselves. “With Idle No more, it’s great to talk about treaty issues and land claims and the environment and all that,” he tells the Sun. “But there also has to be talk about jobs and the idleness of unemployment and the great depression of unemployment rates that exist on most of our First Nations. That’s half the problem, right there.” It’s one thing to have a sharp tongue — but Louie has also shown he has one of the sharpest minds in Canadian www.calgarysun.com/2013/01/14/chief-clarence-louie-took-his-band-from-rags-to-richeswww.youtube.com/watch?v=dPrqlSklVTs. We have a fair number of aboriginal friends and acquaitances, visit back and forth, and the happiest ones are the ones who would support attitudes that Chief Clarence tries to teach his people. I applaud him. My sisterand husband have lived many years on a reserve, presently in a Metis community and would agree . Hopefully t,here are people in the Muslim community who care enough about their people that have the courage to speak to their people , like Clarence does. There is tremendous opposition sometimes for these leaders, from within their community, and even worse, from without, so we need to support them. Alvin Alvin
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