Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 18:25:07 GMT -5
Here's one example from my unanswered thread on Genesis 49:10 New Living Translation The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor.(don't you love the brevity of this?) interpretation - there will one day be a nation of the Hebrews, complete with its own monarchy and law - but it will end with the Messiah who will belong not to us but the Gentiles. Our putative fake prophet would have either 1 - had this inserted in the Jewish Torah unnoticed after the 2nd Century AD. 2 - hazard a guess that the Jews are about to be doomed and he would be the most famous person in history through subterfuge, deceit and just plain luck. So now you are an interpreter of scripture, bert.
Actually, this bit of scripture doesn't live up to it's prophecy.
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor."
The scepter DID depart from the Jews, the ruler's staff DID depart from his descendants.
For many years the Jews had no scepter or staff of there own. They lived in many areas of the world under other rulers.
You are not reading this properly. Jacob said that the scepter will not depart UNTIL .... and that "until" was the coming of the Messiah two and a half thousand years later. Kinda cool, no?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 12, 2014 18:36:33 GMT -5
So now you are an interpreter of scripture, bert.
Actually, this bit of scripture doesn't live up to it's prophecy.
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor."
The scepter DID depart from the Jews, the ruler's staff DID depart from his descendants.
For many years the Jews had no scepter or staff of there own. They lived in many areas of the world under other rulers.
You are not reading this properly. Jacob said that the scepter will not depart UNTIL .... and that "until" was the coming of the Messiah two and a half thousand years later. Kinda cool, no?As a conjecture, yes, that was cool.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 12, 2014 18:42:20 GMT -5
So now you are an interpreter of scripture, bert.
Actually, this bit of scripture doesn't live up to it's prophecy. "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor." The scepter DID depart from the Jews, the ruler's staff DID depart from his descendants.
For many years the Jews had no scepter or staff of there own. They lived in many areas of the world under other rulers.
your not seeing what the verse says....its says "until the coming of the one to whom it belongs" "until" is a key word in that verse... Sounds a bit like "Until hell freezes over", doesn't it? Seriously -- the "until" time has long ago come and gone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 19:03:05 GMT -5
Quote - "you made that up" re Jews coming up with the anti-Messiah argument 2,000 years ago.
The Jews held to certain beliefs about Jesus 1 - He wasn't from Bethlehem as scripture mandates - he's only a Galilean. 2 - He did miracles through the devil (no-one accused him of faking miracles!) 3 - He was the son of Joseph, not the son of God 4 - His disciples were tomb robbers - he didn't raise from the dead at all. 5 - He failed to tick ANY of the boxes for the true Messiah
Re #5. I have already found two verses where the Jewish messiah-king was also the lowly man of sorrows, the one whom they crucified.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 19:09:22 GMT -5
re "conjecture" If Jacob "conjectured" that from Judah would come a line of Kings ruling over a "conjectured" Hebrew nation, and that nation would end with the coming of a "conjectured" Messiah who the non-Hebrews would obey - then Jacob was the Greatest Conjurer of All Time. As Dawkins himself definitely wouldn't say, "What's the odds of THAT happening?"
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 12, 2014 22:59:58 GMT -5
re "conjecture" If Jacob "conjectured" that from Judah would come a line of Kings ruling over a "conjectured" Hebrew nation, and that nation would end with the coming of a "conjectured" Messiah who the non-Hebrews would obey - then Jacob was the Greatest Conjurer of All Time. As Dawkins himself definitely wouldn't say, "What's the odds of THAT happening?" In hindsight, absolutely anything is possible.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2014 3:21:47 GMT -5
So now you are an interpreter of scripture, bert.
Actually, this bit of scripture doesn't live up to it's prophecy.
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor."
The scepter DID depart from the Jews, the ruler's staff DID depart from his descendants.
For many years the Jews had no scepter or staff of there own. They lived in many areas of the world under other rulers.
You are not reading this properly. Jacob said that the scepter will not depart UNTIL .... and that "until" was the coming of the Messiah two and a half thousand years later. Kinda cool, no? Well , really not so "cool".
Actually , you keep contradicting yourself, Bert. Do You forget that despite Jacob saying that, it could hardly be an accurate prophecy because the Israelites didn't at the time and don't yet, consider Jesus the Messiah!
So, either Jacob was off balance or the Israelites screwed up their own prophecy, didn't they?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2014 3:32:41 GMT -5
Here's one example from my unanswered thread on Genesis 49:10 New Living Translation
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor.
Do all nations honor Jesus? I don't think so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 11:49:40 GMT -5
Here's one example from my unanswered thread on Genesis 49:10 New Living Translation
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor.
Do all nations honor Jesus? I don't think so.
again your not reading it right...another key word is "will" as in the future tense when he returns for the final time... Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
|
|
|
Post by snow on Dec 13, 2014 12:34:58 GMT -5
Do all nations honor Jesus? I don't think so.
again your not reading it right...another key word is "will" as in the future tense when he returns for the final time... Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; I think Christians are going to be waiting a very long time if they expect Jesus to return.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2014 14:50:28 GMT -5
Do all nations honor Jesus? I don't think so.
again your not reading it right...another key word is "will" as in the future tense when he returns for the final time... Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Do all nations honor Jesus? I don't think so.
again your not reading it right...another key word is "will" as in the future tense when he returns for the final time... Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Php_2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Okay! finally! Now we are getting to the nub of it!
With all those CAVEATs, "until" "will" (modifying detail to be considered when evaluating, interpreting, or doing something) we finally know what happens!
I mean what is suppose to happen!
Just another prophecy that hasn't happened.
Somewhat like the one where Jesus told his disciples that he would come back before they died. They have long been dead & Jesus still hasn't come back.
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2014 15:04:39 GMT -5
re "conjecture" If Jacob "conjectured" that from Judah would come a line of Kings ruling over a "conjectured" Hebrew nation, and that nation would end with the coming of a "conjectured" Messiah who the non-Hebrews would obey - then Jacob was the Greatest Conjurer of All Time. As Dawkins himself definitely wouldn't say, "What's the odds of THAT happening?" In hindsight, absolutely anything is possible. Without a God, absolutely anything is possible and no one would be able to agree or know what happened.
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Dec 13, 2014 15:07:56 GMT -5
In hindsight, absolutely anything is possible. Without a God, absolutely anything is possible and no one would be able to agree on what happened. Sounds to me like that is a good possibility!
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2014 15:09:19 GMT -5
Without a God, absolutely anything is possible and no one would be able to agree on what happened. Sounds to me like that is a good possibility! Great! Lets celebrate irrationality with one accord now.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 17:49:05 GMT -5
In hindsight, absolutely anything is possible. Without a God, absolutely anything is possible and no one would be able to agree or know what happened. Sounds to me like also WITH a god absolutely anything is possible and no one is able to agree or know what happened. So what one probably should do is: pick your fantasy if you have one, or just pretend you have one so no one will harass you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 17:58:59 GMT -5
Lots of fudging going on here.... Whether the "Jews" accept Jesus as the Messiah is not the point You can read into Jacob's prophecy that they WOULDN'T accept Jesus (that is - the end of Israel) Whether ALLL people actually obey this Messiah is also not the point. Isaiah speaks of this Messiah thus, "in whom the Gentiles will trust" but we know not all trust this Messiah. Jesus WAS seen of his own after His crucifixion. As for the belief that He would come back to reign during the apostles lifetime - I don't believe it, neither did they. Jesus told what must transpire before that event happens. And this event is the one referred to in 90% of Jewish prophecy - the Messiah as reigning king. But again, most of these comments don't distract from the fact that Jacob gave a prophecy in Judah that more or less sums up the entire Old and New Testament, and the world today. Anything IS possible, but as Dawkins would put it - "what are the odds?"
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 18:10:44 GMT -5
Lots of fudging going on here.... Whether the "Jews" accept Jesus as the Messiah is not the point You can read into Jacob's prophecy that they WOULDN'T accept Jesus (that is - the end of Israel) Whether ALLL people actually obey this Messiah is also not the point. Isaiah speaks of this Messiah thus, "in whom the Gentiles will trust" but we know not all trust this Messiah. Jesus WAS seen of his own after His crucifixion. As for the belief that He would come back to reign during the apostles lifetime - I don't believe it, neither did they. Jesus told what must transpire before that event happens. And this event is the one referred to in 90% of Jewish prophecy - the Messiah as reigning king. But again, most of these comments don't distract from the fact that Jacob gave a prophecy in Judah that more or less sums up the entire Old and New Testament, and the world today. Anything IS possible, but as Dawkins would put it - "what are the odds?" As previously stated: in hindsight, absolutely anything is possible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 18:30:30 GMT -5
Yes, all is possible in hindsight. Here's one from Jesus himself, if I can recall the words, "And Jerusalem shall be trampled down of the Gentiles, until the Gentile's time is complete."
Who would have thought the Jews would actually return to their ancient home land, and as Ezekiel put it, "take it back with the sword."
Maybe these scriptures WERE written in hindsight, that would place them in the 20th Century.
Whether you believe Genesis was written in-situ, or in King David's time, or Babylonian times or even by the Maccabees - what Jacob said was still in the future.
It's one of many demonstrations that the bible isn't just another "holy book."
And what does it say in the bible? "And it's marvelous in our sight!"
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 19:35:33 GMT -5
Yes, all is possible in hindsight. Here's one from Jesus himself, if I can recall the words, "And Jerusalem shall be trampled down of the Gentiles, until the Gentile's time is complete." Who would have thought the Jews would actually return to their ancient home land, and as Ezekiel put it, "take it back with the sword." Maybe these scriptures WERE written in hindsight, that would place them in the 20th Century. Whether you believe Genesis was written in-situ, or in King David's time, or Babylonian times or even by the Maccabees - what Jacob said was still in the future. It's one of many demonstrations that the bible isn't just another "holy book." And what does it say in the bible? "And it's marvelous in our sight!" Modern day Israel happens NOT to be the reestablished ancient kingdom of Israel -- except in Christian fantasy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 19:46:16 GMT -5
Yes, all is possible in hindsight. Here's one from Jesus himself, if I can recall the words, "And Jerusalem shall be trampled down of the Gentiles, until the Gentile's time is complete." Who would have thought the Jews would actually return to their ancient home land, and as Ezekiel put it, "take it back with the sword." Maybe these scriptures WERE written in hindsight, that would place them in the 20th Century. Whether you believe Genesis was written in-situ, or in King David's time, or Babylonian times or even by the Maccabees - what Jacob said was still in the future. It's one of many demonstrations that the bible isn't just another "holy book." And what does it say in the bible? "And it's marvelous in our sight!" Modern day Israel happens NOT to be the reestablished ancient kingdom of Israel -- except in Christian fantasy. www.end-times-bible-prophecy.com/rebirth-of-israel.html
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 19:49:02 GMT -5
The bible doesn't say what the nature of this new Israel will be. but there are clues says somewhere the 12 tribes will be lost, and replaced with just 2, ie Mannesah and Ephraim - interestingly, these were the 2 sons of Joseph - both weren't really a part of the 12, and symbolize the secular and religious aspects of the Jews. Says new Israel will live in "cities without walls" and that would have been unusual in the OT.
But its important to note that these prophecies are not exclusive, we can all wonder at them - they are there for us all.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 19:50:11 GMT -5
Yes, like I told you. A Christian fantasy -- totally ignorant of the differences between ancient Israel and the present state.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 19:52:33 GMT -5
The bible doesn't say what the nature of this new Israel will be. but there are clues Now we're getting somewhere. Don't worry -- I AM wondering.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2014 23:18:59 GMT -5
Lots of fudging going on here.... Whether the "Jews" accept Jesus as the Messiah is not the point You can read into Jacob's prophecy that they WOULDN'T accept Jesus (that is - the end of Israel) Whether ALLL people actually obey this Messiah is also not the point. Isaiah speaks of this Messiah thus, "in whom the Gentiles will trust" but we know not all trust this Messiah. Jesus WAS seen of his own after His crucifixion. As for the belief that He would come back to reign during the apostles lifetime - I don't believe it, neither did they. Jesus told what must transpire before that event happens. And this event is the one referred to in 90% of Jewish prophecy - the Messiah as reigning king. But again, most of these comments don't distract from the fact that Jacob gave a prophecy in Judah that more or less sums up the entire Old and New Testament, and the world today. Anything IS possible, but as Dawkins would put it - "what are the odds?" Sure does seem like someone is doing a lot of "fudging!" "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from his descendants, until the coming of the one to whom it belongs, the one whom all nations will honor. Someone ;)keeps on adding caveats all the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 23:23:16 GMT -5
Suggesting a new Israel has to have twelve tribes, a temple and a priest, for instance, is really a strawman argument. Isiah tells us, "Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a sign for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.."
The first time Israel was restored will still in Isaiah's future, the second return is in our own generation. And God said this return is for a "sign." In the same way Jesus did miracles as a "sign" of who he was.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 23:29:25 GMT -5
Saying a new Israel has to have twelve tribes, a temple and a priest, for instance, is really a strawman argument. Isiah tells us, "Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a sign for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious. Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.."Had already happened. Isaiah works like this: The writer writes: "at a time in the past, someone said that 'something will happen', and see: it's already happened." No one said it was going to happen again!!!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 23:58:43 GMT -5
There seem to be two rules with skeptics view of the biblical prophecy 1 - post-date any prophecy which appears to have happened. 2 - if successful prophecy can't be post-dated, ignore it.
That's why you aren't likely to read Jacob's prophecy in most skeptic material.
When Isaiah said Israel will come again the "second time" to possess their land I must presume skeptics will simply ignore the verse. I think I read similar in another book too, maybe Jeremiah, Daniel or Ezekiel. And this is why the bible was strange, even alien, to the Jews in the Old Testament.
Isaiah hadn't seen the first exile to Babylon, yet here he is speaking of another exile.
If Genesis, Isaiah etc had made 319,438,621,549,000 prophecies concerning Israel and one (1.0000) came true, we could talk about probabilities. But Genesis made all sorts of interesting prophecies about Israel, the Jews, the Arabs and the world in general which ought to be treated with an open mind.
Interestingly, I believe there was another powerful prophecy of the Aztecs regarding the coming of the white conquerors, which was accurate to the very year Cortez.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2014 0:58:58 GMT -5
There seem to be two rules with skeptics view of the biblical prophecy 1 - post-date any prophecy which appears to have happened. 2 - if successful prophecy can't be post-dated, ignore it. Yes, I can understand why you would say that. But then again, who is the skeptic? Absolutely not the case. No one takes Bible reading any more seriously than I do. It is very important literature. I suspect that you are thinking I am a skeptic. I'm not -- I just disagree with your understanding. I already told you what I know about that writing. Yes, the Jews are all clueless know nothings who write scripture and have not a clue of shred of respect for what they write about themselves. On the street I would suggest you are a racist, but I know where you're coming from so I'll be patient. Isaiah was writing history, not prophesy. I read Isaiah So what constitutes an open mind? Yeah, that is interesting. I've taught that to my students -- in History class. Given a theology class to teach I probably would have talked about Isaiah too. Why not? You can't ignore something that had shaped the world's largest religion. But if I were going to teach ancient history (even Bible HISTORY) I would have to be literal and historical, not theologically speculative.
|
|