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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 19:55:22 GMT -5
considering the way Jesus setup the church it would be pretty hard for it to continue after his death dont you think if you had to see Jesus to become an apostle... Why? Paul claims to have seen Jesus so if he is to be believed, I'm sure Jesus could show himself to each and everyone he chooses to spread his word. He is God after all. Should be able to do something as simple as that. well if you read acts 9 it doesn't really say he "saw" jesus, he heard his "voice" and saw a bright light from heaven...could the bright light have been jesus in his glory? unclear...is there a verse i am missing where paul says he "saw" jesus?
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Post by snow on Nov 24, 2014 20:34:40 GMT -5
Why? Paul claims to have seen Jesus so if he is to be believed, I'm sure Jesus could show himself to each and everyone he chooses to spread his word. He is God after all. Should be able to do something as simple as that. well if you read acts 9 it doesn't really say he "saw" jesus, he heard his "voice" and saw a bright light from heaven...could the bright light have been jesus in his glory? unclear...is there a verse i am missing where paul says he "saw" jesus? Paul claimed to have seen Jesus. I doubt he did, sounds more like a seizure, but he definitely says he did and that's what's being discussed, so here is one verse 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 15:3-10 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. However, you are right in saying that in the initial story he only says he sees a light and hears a voice. It is later he says he saw Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 22:10:09 GMT -5
Quote from Snow, "Paul claimed to have seen Jesus. I doubt he did, sounds more like a seizure..."
So why bother reading, let alone quoting, the bible? It was ALL seizure - Abraham, Moses, Noah, Solomon, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jesus....
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 24, 2014 22:25:54 GMT -5
Timothy and Silas had NEVER met Jesus in person but Paul called them as apostles like unto himself.
I Thess 1:1 Paul, Silas, and Timothy
I Thess 2:6-7 nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children: I Thess 3:2 and sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith: Timothy was an apostle of Jesus Christ but he couldn't heal himself for his often stomach infirmities.Does the 2x2 workers believe themselves to be apostles?
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Post by snow on Nov 25, 2014 11:52:02 GMT -5
Quote from Snow, "Paul claimed to have seen Jesus. I doubt he did, sounds more like a seizure..." So why bother reading, let alone quoting, the bible? It was ALL seizure - Abraham, Moses, Noah, Solomon, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jesus....because I post on a religious forum and in order to relate with others I use the same resources as they do. Doesn't mean I need to believe in them. Paul was the founder of Christianity for all intents and purposes, not Christ. Christ was a Jew with Jewish beliefs. Paul was a Hellenistic Jew with a whole other mindset which showed in his willingness to accept Christians that were not circumcised. The apostles of Jesus, minus Paul, were totally against that. In fact I think they would have been insulted if someone had called them Christians. They were Jews trying to get Jews back on track. They never intended for 'Gentiles' to be part of the whole deal. Their problems were with the Romans and the corrupted temple priests and they wanted to activate the people to overthrow the Romans and replace the priests that were charging for healing and forgiveness etc. They felt it should be done for free as they were doing.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2014 13:01:21 GMT -5
Quote from Snow, "Paul claimed to have seen Jesus. I doubt he did, sounds more like a seizure..." So why bother reading, let alone quoting, the bible? It was ALL seizure - Abraham, Moses, Noah, Solomon, David, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jesus....P aul never saw Jesus when Jesus was alive.
He claims to have seen Jesus in some kind of context while on the road to Damascus.
Actually, he didn't even see a vision of Jesus, because he was blinded by something happening.
For those who want to believe in Christianity, they believe that Paul had a vision of Jesus.
For those of us who no longer believe in such supernatural events, we realize that there could have been any number of natural causes of that event. Sun stroke, epilepsy?
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Post by snow on Nov 25, 2014 18:07:27 GMT -5
P aul never saw Jesus when Jesus was alive.
He claims to have seen Jesus in some kind of context while on the road to Damascus.
Actually, he didn't even see a vision of Jesus, because he was blinded by something happening.
For those who want to believe in Christianity, they believe that Paul had a vision of Jesus.
For those of us who no longer believe in such supernatural events, we realize that there could have been any number of natural causes of that event. Sun stroke, epilepsy? Jesus was Resurrected and ALIVE after his death on Calvary's Cross. Are you saying more than 500 apostles, and disciples had sun/heat stroke, epilepsy when they SAW Jesus after the Resurrection? You got to be joking!I Cor. 15:1-8 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. There you go again, Nathan quantity doesn't make it true. Do you believe in Christianity and the Trinity because more people do believe? It could just mean a lot of people are wrong. That is the other option you know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 6:45:57 GMT -5
There you go again, Nathan quantity doesn't make it true. Do you believe in Christianity and the Trinity because more people do believe? It could just mean a lot of people are wrong. That is the other option you know. Above 500 apostles and disciples SAW Jesus in person, after resurrection were Fact NOT fiction because John the apostle SAW Jesus again in 95 A.D. on the island of Patmos, where he received the book of Revelation, which we now have in the Bible.And you can NOW put your money on the fact that the Gospel of John, his Epistles and the Book of Revelation were written so that people would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that he is NOT God, or God himself, or a co-equal part of a triune being. John is absolutely consistent throughout his writings and is in full agreement with the other Gospel and Epistle writers!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 12:14:59 GMT -5
Nathan, we have covered all that time and again. You simply do not pay attention. John's writings, as stated by the author himself are to show that Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of God and that through believing in his name we can have life eternal. In no way is he ever directing us to believe in Jesus IS God, is God the Son, or part of a triune God. Every verse you have quoted above like the one in John 20 where Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and My God" is taken way out of context.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 14:03:08 GMT -5
Nathan, we have covered all that time and again. You simply do not pay attention. John's writings, as stated by the author himself are to show that Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of God and that through believing in his name we can have life eternal. In no way is he ever directing us to believe in Jesus IS God, is God the Son, or part of a triune God. Every verse you have quoted above like the one in John 20 where Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and My God" is taken way out of context. I present the verses and you present yours, and let the readers decide who are taken the verses out of context.I have no problem with this, except you do not engage with what is presented to you. You merely keep repeating verses (taken out of context) without really attempting to explain them or to engage what I present! It really is a waste of time, except for those others who want to see things in proper context, for which I am thankful.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 15:01:09 GMT -5
I have no problem with this, except you do not engage with what is presented to you. You merely keep repeating verses (taken out of context) without really attempting to explain them or to engage what I present! It really is a waste of time, except for those others who want to see things in proper context, for which I am thankful. You explain your ways and I will do it my way.... let the readers.... draw their own conclusion of who are misinterpreted the scriptures or taken verses out of context. These TMB readers are THINKERS, smart and they know the Bible themselves.Let them be true "Bereans" Nathan!
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