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Post by bubbles on Nov 19, 2014 15:43:07 GMT -5
Do you believe that anyone could ever grieve the Spirit or starve him or crowd him out so that he would no longer guide? I certainly believe in the eternal security of "believers." I do not believe in the insecurity of non-believers. Belief is something that must continue to the end. It is this which receives the seal. Emy I do believe we can grieve the holy spirit. Especially in the area of power ministry where he has used your life to minister with the gifts and then you turn and deny the power of your god. I also think he leaves churches that have their own agenda or ministries that hunger for power. Spiritual pride. Do you think he is going to remain in a church that isnt following scriptural guidelines? Or support a ministry that abuses children or support a ministry that tolerates abuse of women?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 19, 2014 15:48:43 GMT -5
When the lord does good things he deserves praise. He deserves praise for who he is. There is something undeniably sweet about his presence his gentleness his love care and even his direction. I cant and wont deny him and his goodness just because others tell me he doesnt exist and is not real. A non believer can not have any concept of the reality of the bornagain experience. It is a spiritual encounter not a head knowledge. Oops got off topic a bit.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 19, 2014 15:54:12 GMT -5
Faune I dont think the seal of god can be broken based on scriptures like 'he never leaves nor forsakes us.' Once you are sealed you are sealed. The lord cant defile his word. The only reason I could see that happening is maybe blaspheming the holy spirit.
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 17:34:50 GMT -5
Can you give us some 'text' on this? Paraphrased if you want. Personally the only work I've heard that enables salvation is obedience to the Holy Spirit or living out the teaching of Jesus. I think that's Biblical... and may even be somewhat different for any person depending on the gift of the Spirit they have received. The gist of what was spoken was analogous to the story of Noah and the ark. Noah had to DO something in order to be saved from the flood. All the faith and grace in the world wouldn't have lifted him above the water if he hadn't done the work of building the ark. This was a few years prior to telling us that we needed to get rid of our pets. Well would it? As I said... obedience? Please tell the overseer, "pardon me" ...... if necessary. I'm not sure how I would react to being told to get rid of my pets. I have 3 cats and sometimes a dog in the house. Then again, maybe you could ask my hubby... he's been working on me for years to at least throw out/give away a couple cats!
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 17:41:02 GMT -5
Emy ~ Scripture does say that you can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and also quench the Holy Spirit (I Thessalonians 5:19), but that doesn't mean that the Spirit of God leaves you as a result. You're just cutting off the communication lines for a while due to resistance to the Spirit's leading. I liked the way this article explains this ~ "If grieving is doing what you shouldn’t... quenching is not doing what you should!" Seems a pretty risky position to me!
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 17:51:36 GMT -5
Emy I do believe we can grieve the holy spirit. Especially in the area of power ministry where he has used your life to minister with the gifts and then you turn and deny the power of your god. I also think he leaves churches that have their own agenda or ministries that hunger for power. Spiritual pride. Do you think he is going to remain in a church that isnt following scriptural guidelines? Or support a ministry that abuses children or support a ministry that tolerates abuse of women?While He surely won't support any such thing, He will have a very hard time finding an entire CHURCH to support if the actions of individuals prevents that. What i like is that God doesn't condemn everyone on the basis of our individual sins. OK, so maybe you can disprove that pointing at certain instances like the 70 years of captivity, but didn't God give some protection even then to those who were faithful? (Daniel?) Do you think corruption of the fellowship is as invasive now (relatively) as corruption of the Law was before God let Israel go into captivity? I rather doubt it, but can't prove it.
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 17:56:35 GMT -5
Faune I dont think the seal of god can be broken based on scriptures like 'he never leaves nor forsakes us.' Once you are sealed you are sealed. The lord cant defile his word. The only reason I could see that happening is maybe blaspheming the holy spirit. He will never leave us .. I agree. If we cut off communication lines through resistance, maybe we have left him? Maybe we intend or hope some day to open up those lines ... but you know how it goes...?
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 21:45:51 GMT -5
Yet the godly characteristics are found in people that are not led by the Holy spirit. How do you explain that? Perhaps it's not the Holy spirit, but the goodness of the person after all?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 23:31:01 GMT -5
Yet the godly characteristics are found in people that are not led by the Holy spirit. How do you explain that? Perhaps it's not the Holy spirit, but the goodness of the person after all? i don't think this is the right verse i am looking for but here it is: Mat_7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? God admits that evil people can do good things to/for one another...that however wont save them...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 4:38:26 GMT -5
Emy ~ Scripture does say that you can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and also quench the Holy Spirit (I Thessalonians 5:19), but that doesn't mean that the Spirit of God leaves you as a result. You're just cutting off the communication lines for a while due to resistance to the Spirit's leading. I liked the way this article explains this ~ "If grieving is doing what you shouldn’t... quenching is not doing what you should!" Seems a pretty risky position to me! Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
God gives his Spirit to those who do his will. We have a very patient and merciful God who is touched by our weaknesses. However weak we may be it is essential to keep seeking his Spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 4:48:32 GMT -5
In the beginning God knew that man would disobey him and that he would have to provide a Saviour in order to reconcile man to himself. Man substituted the divine nature of God for human nature. He ended up with a nature that knew both good and evil, instead of one that sought only righteousness. Instead of living by every word of God, man was now capable of doing both good and evil works. However, God made sure that when he booted man out of the Garden of Eden he had a moral compass inbuilt into human nature to guide his waywardness. Some very good people are capable of doing some very bad things and some very bad people are capable of doing some very good things. The moral compass points towards doing good and temptation points towards doing wrong.
Without the Word of God that's all we have to guide us!
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 11:49:37 GMT -5
Yet the godly characteristics are found in people that are not led by the Holy spirit. How do you explain that? Perhaps it's not the Holy spirit, but the goodness of the person after all? i don't think this is the right verse i am looking for but here it is: Mat_7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? God admits that evil people can do good things to/for one another...that however wont save them... So if you don't believe in the Christian God are you evil? Am I evil?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 12:07:58 GMT -5
i don't think this is the right verse i am looking for but here it is: Mat_7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? God admits that evil people can do good things to/for one another...that however wont save them... So if you don't believe in the Christian God are you evil? Am I evil? according to God probably yes...evil as in not believing in God yes evil as in having horns and a pitchfork no..there are many kinds of evil in this world...dont think i am singling you out either i've been evil before and probably will commit evil again i am first and foremost a sinner(evil). all fall short of being Christ like, but we have Christ to help us change from being evil into being Christ like for Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 12:22:07 GMT -5
Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
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Post by faune on Nov 20, 2014 12:46:50 GMT -5
Yet the godly characteristics are found in people that are not led by the Holy spirit. How do you explain that? Perhaps it's not the Holy spirit, but the goodness of the person after all? Snow ~ These are not godly characteristics or "fruits of the Spirit" found in people's lives, but rather "spiritual endowments and gifts" that God gives believers in the form of comforting, teaching, discernment, enabling, and interceding, as well as natural abilities. Perhaps you are thinking of the character qualities, called fruits of the Spirit, that are usually manifested by people possessing the spirit of Christ within, as found in Galatians 5:22-26?
www.bible-knowledge.com/gifts-of-the-holy-spirit/ Gifts of the Spirit
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22-26 Fruits of the Spirit
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Post by faune on Nov 20, 2014 13:21:10 GMT -5
Seems a pretty risky position to me! Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
God gives his Spirit to those who do his will. We have a very patient and merciful God who is touched by our weaknesses. However weak we may be it is essential to keep seeking his Spirit. Ram and Emy ~ I see your point and I do agree. However, I don't feel that God deserts us or rejects us when we are disobedience and may be going our own way. He continues to seek us out like the shepherd for the lost sheep. However, when it comes to "denying" God entrance into our heart continually, we may find ourselves truly outside of his love and grace when this life is over? So, the bottom line, I feel, is not that God gives up on seeking us out, but that we give up on God and fail to respond to His drawings upon our heart and soul? Most of the time that comes from doubts fed by human knowledge which hinders us from acknowledging the divine nature and workings of God through faith, IMHO? This article seems to address the same roadblock found in unbelieving hearts today and down through the ages?
www.icr.org/article/three-creation-witnesses/ Three Creation Witnesses
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 16:16:42 GMT -5
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
God gives his Spirit to those who do his will. We have a very patient and merciful God who is touched by our weaknesses. However weak we may be it is essential to keep seeking his Spirit. Ram and Emy ~ I see your point and I do agree. However, I don't feel that God deserts us or rejects us when we are disobedience and may be going our own way. He continues to seek us out like the shepherd for the lost sheep. However, when it comes to "denying" God entrance into our heart continually, we may find ourselves truly outside of his love and grace when this life is over? So, the bottom line, I feel, is not that God gives up on seeking us out, but that we give up on God and fail to respond to His drawings upon our heart and soul? Most of the time that comes from doubts fed by human knowledge which hinders us from acknowledging the divine nature and workings of God through faith, IMHO? This article seems to address the same roadblock found in unbelieving hearts today and down through the ages?
www.icr.org/article/three-creation-witnesses/ Three Creation Witnesses
Hi Faune, I have no doubt that God will be very patient and merciful with us but we are not to be slothful servants. We are told to seek the Lord whilst he may be found and also that if we draw near to God then he will draw near to us. Ultimately it is all down to our condition. It goes without saying that I disagree with the article you posted.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 20, 2014 17:16:33 GMT -5
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?I for one know what mine is like.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 17:22:35 GMT -5
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?I for one know what mine is like. Is it forever blowing "bubbles?"
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 20, 2014 17:35:31 GMT -5
Seems a pretty risky position to me! Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
God gives his Spirit to those who do his will. We have a very patient and merciful God who is touched by our weaknesses. However weak we may be it is essential to keep seeking his Spirit. Before we get to Ephesians 4:30 we need to step back to the earlier verses and take it all in context. For example,[1] I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, [2] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, [3] eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—[5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. [7] But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. (Ephesians 4:1-7 ESV) The believers in the Church in Ephesus was called to walk worthy of their calling and that follows through the chapter. By not walking according to our calling we then grieve the Holy Spirit whom we are indwelt when we are born again. There are only two types of people in this world - those in Christ and those who are not in Christ. That is why Paul started in chapter one with: [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, [4] even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [5] he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [6] to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. [7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, [8] which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight (Ephesians 1:3-8 ESV) In the words of the hymnwriter, Nought have I gotten but what I have received, grace has bestowed since I have believed. Boasting excluded, pride I abase, I am only a sinner saved by grace
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 7:19:52 GMT -5
I for one know what mine is like. Is it forever blowing "bubbles?" Haa that could depend on prespective..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 13:35:27 GMT -5
i don't think this is the right verse i am looking for but here it is: Mat_7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? God admits that evil people can do good things to/for one another...that however wont save them... So if you don't believe in the Christian God are you evil? Am I evil? Evil needs to be clarified. God himself testifies to using "evil." However, he is sovereign, and he uses some terrible and wrathful means in his judgments, but his evils are righteous evils, because they are righteous judgments and for a righteous cause. God does not bring about his evil through evil motivation, but to work his righteousness. God is sovereign and above his laws which are subject to him. We however are subject to God's laws.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 16:38:06 GMT -5
So if you don't believe in the Christian God are you evil? Am I evil? Evil needs to be clarified. God himself testifies to using "evil." However, he is sovereign, and he uses some terrible and wrathful means in his judgments, but his evils are righteous evils, because they are righteous judgments and for a righteous cause. God does not bring about his evil through evil motivation, but to work his righteousness. God is sovereign and above his laws which are subject to him. We however are subject to God's laws. For me, this is wrong on so many levels. Evil is evil. A sovereign all powerful, loving being does not have to resort to evil to get what he wants. On the other hand, a God made up by the Hebrew people to justify all the wars and horrific deeds they did, well yes that being resorts to evil.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 7:05:36 GMT -5
Evil needs to be clarified. God himself testifies to using "evil." However, he is sovereign, and he uses some terrible and wrathful means in his judgments, but his evils are righteous evils, because they are righteous judgments and for a righteous cause. God does not bring about his evil through evil motivation, but to work his righteousness. God is sovereign and above his laws which are subject to him. We however are subject to God's laws. For me, this is wrong on so many levels. Evil is evil. A sovereign all powerful, loving being does not have to resort to evil to get what he wants. On the other hand, a God made up by the Hebrew people to justify all the wars and horrific deeds they did, well yes that being resorts to evil. Back to my opening point. Evil needs to be clarified. A murderer who faces the death penalty is being returned evil for evil, but it is a righteous judgment! Some may not regard the death penalty in these circumstances to be "evil" but evil it is. However, it is the right judgment. That's why I say we need to clarify what we mean by "evil."
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 12:44:18 GMT -5
For me, this is wrong on so many levels. Evil is evil. A sovereign all powerful, loving being does not have to resort to evil to get what he wants. On the other hand, a God made up by the Hebrew people to justify all the wars and horrific deeds they did, well yes that being resorts to evil. Back to my opening point. Evil needs to be clarified. A murderer who faces the death penalty is being returned evil for evil, but it is a righteous judgment! Some may not regard the death penalty in these circumstances to be "evil" but evil it is. However, it is the right judgment. That's why I say we need to clarify what we mean by "evil." It is an eye for an eye judgement. Didn't Jesus oppose that?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 12:53:24 GMT -5
Back to my opening point. Evil needs to be clarified. A murderer who faces the death penalty is being returned evil for evil, but it is a righteous judgment! Some may not regard the death penalty in these circumstances to be "evil" but evil it is. However, it is the right judgment. That's why I say we need to clarify what we mean by "evil." It is an eye for an eye judgement. Didn't Jesus oppose that? No, it was about cheeks. He didn't say an eye for a cheek! Actually Jesus didn't oppose the eye for an eye stuff. He said "don't oppose it." If someone wants your eye...give him both! Matthew 5:38-48King James Version (KJV) 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2014 16:21:48 GMT -5
It is an eye for an eye judgement. Didn't Jesus oppose that? No, it was about cheeks. He didn't say an eye for a cheek! Actually Jesus didn't oppose the eye for an eye stuff. He said "don't oppose it." If someone wants your eye...give him both! Matthew 5:38-48King James Version (KJV) 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. So why do we murder people who have committed murder then? It seems to be the opposite of what is said here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 17:20:01 GMT -5
No, it was about cheeks. He didn't say an eye for a cheek! Actually Jesus didn't oppose the eye for an eye stuff. He said "don't oppose it." If someone wants your eye...give him both! Matthew 5:38-48King James Version (KJV) 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. So why do we murder people who have committed murder then? It seems to be the opposite of what is said here. Gen_9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
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