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Post by rational on Nov 21, 2014 10:18:00 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize. You can't keep going down these logical paths and expect to make sense!
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 10:22:57 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize. Snow ~ Well, that makes sense to me, too, especially considering 1/3 of the angels of Heaven were cast down with Lucifer, who became Satan, after the revolt? Apparently, they weren't that content in Paradise to even think of doing such a thing? I guess even in Heaven there was this bartering for place and recognition that you see down here on earth, too? Also, just the thought of a "war in Heaven," described in Revelation 12, doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy picture of peace and contentment and endless bliss either?
Something else I also find strange is the time frame of this war in heaven, which gives the impression of occurring around the time Jesus died on the Cross instead of back in the book of Genesis around the time of the Tower of Babel, where we first read of "fallen angels" in Genesis 6. Then, there's a portion in Revelation that seems to describe the "end times" and the 7 years tribulation period, in which the Antichrist shows up midway. For sure, there are some leaps in history here that don't add up, IMHO?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 11:06:58 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize. Snow ~ Well, that makes sense to me, too, especially considering 1/3 of the angels of Heaven were cast down with Lucifer, who became Satan, after the revolt? Apparently, they weren't that content in Paradise to even think of doing such a thing? I guess even in Heaven there was this bartering for place and recognition that you see down here on earth, too? Also, just the thought of a "war in Heaven," described in Revelation 12, doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy picture of peace and contentment and endless bliss either?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven
Exactly. It's obviously symbolic of something, though I can't think of what. The whole 1/3 or the angels thing is interesting. Why just 1/3? Was it exactly 1/3? The numbers probably meant something to someone at one time and now it's taken to be a true story. Also, isn't heaven where we have no wars? Does this mean there might be some angels in the future that decide to rebel and there will be another war? Will humans be part of this war? Will some decide to back the rebelling angels and inadvertently end up in hell? So many questions. No answers. Makes a person wonder and think though.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 11:09:16 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize. You can't keep going down these logical paths and expect to make sense! Sorry, you're right! It just all so confusing!
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 11:14:34 GMT -5
Snow ~ Well, that makes sense to me, too, especially considering 1/3 of the angels of Heaven were cast down with Lucifer, who became Satan, after the revolt? Apparently, they weren't that content in Paradise to even think of doing such a thing? I guess even in Heaven there was this bartering for place and recognition that you see down here on earth, too? Also, just the thought of a "war in Heaven," described in Revelation 12, doesn't exactly give a warm and fuzzy picture of peace and contentment and endless bliss either?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven
Exactly. It's obviously symbolic of something, though I can't think of what. The whole 1/3 or the angels thing is interesting. Why just 1/3? Was it exactly 1/3? The numbers probably meant something to someone at one time and now it's taken to be a true story. Also, isn't heaven where we have no wars? Does this mean there might be some angels in the future that decide to rebel and there will be another war? Will humans be part of this war? Will some decide to back the rebelling angels and inadvertently end up in hell? So many questions. No answers. Makes a person wonder and think though. Snow ~ Also, let's not forget about the different places in the Bible where it speaks of the "fallen angels" which adds to the heavenly mystery? Here's just a sampling (43 out of 75) of these many references from Genesis to Revelation to get an idea about the nature and mission connected to these fallen adversaries.
www.openbible.info/topics/fallen_angels ~ 75 Bible Verses about Fallen Angels
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 11:48:38 GMT -5
Another thing that bothers me is that scripture says that God creates all things, visible and invisible (Colossians 1:16), which also means that he created Satan, who was righteous (blameless) in the beginning, but he eventually turned and became evil instead, and is still involved in deceiving the whole world. He was also given much power and majesty in Heaven according to Ezekiel 28:12-17, which doesn't make much sense to me either, considering how he abused his place and powers and was called a liar and a murderer from the beginning and even led a revolt in Heaven of one-third of the angels?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8:43-45 John 8:43-45
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beelzebub Beelzebub
www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Dark/Devil_Description_Ez28.html ~ The Devil and his Powers (Ezekiel 28:12-17)
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Post by faune on Nov 21, 2014 12:31:30 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 14:34:02 GMT -5
Thanks for all that faune. There certainly was a lot of reference to him and his angels. Something is definitely not quite right about all this if Heaven is supposed to be such an amazing place. What would cause anyone to rebel and face defeat? They had to know they couldn't win any fight with an all powerful being. Why would they even consider it. Things had to be pretty bad don't you think? Also, it says Satan stole earth from God that was meant for humans. Just how does one steal something from an all powerful being?
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Post by matisse on Nov 21, 2014 14:36:08 GMT -5
Thanks for all that faune. There certainly was a lot of reference to him and his angels. Something is definitely not quite right about all this if Heaven is supposed to be such an amazing place. What would cause anyone to rebel and face defeat? They had to know they couldn't win any fight with an all powerful being. Why would they even consider it. Things had to be pretty bad don't you think? Also, it says Satan stole earth from God that was meant for humans. Just how does one steal something from an all powerful being? Perhaps the dysfunctional family is made in Heaven's image!
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 14:44:45 GMT -5
There are 3 heavens.
First heaven. Sky rain clouds. Physical and invisible. Second heaven. Galaxy. Physical and invisible. 3rd heaven. Gods dwelling place. Invisible.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 14:48:49 GMT -5
Snow If they say satan stole from god. It would be referring to the fall of man. When Adams glory was removed at the moment they partook of the apple, Off the tree of good and evil and then they saw their nakedness. Prior to the fall Adam and Eve were clothed in glory. You cant see through the glory it is bright light like a thick cloud.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 14:56:39 GMT -5
In the greater picture. Paradise is a place of love immeasurable love. No sin. If lucifer can sin in a sinless environment that then god had a problem.
Earth was created and then inhabited by created beings. After the fall of man there is another problem. How dies the father regain relationship with his creation that he had been pleased with? That is why Jesus came to earth as saviour so that man could be reconciled back to the father. He came from a sinless environment to a sinful environment. Overcame sin. A spotless sacrifical lamb. Sacrifice was necessary. To take on the sin of the world. To save humanity. Creating man had its downside. Like any invention.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 15:04:49 GMT -5
Prince of the power of the air. He and his demons. Spirits of wickedness rule our invisble heaven. No matter whether you believe in the supernatural presence if these created beings they are there around us influencing our lives. It is real. Relevant. The bible talks about it at length. You can be influenced for good or evil. There are two kingdoms. Light and darkness. At war. Have been since the fall of lucifer. Our minds are open to both kingdoms. You already know all this
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 16:19:11 GMT -5
Thanks for all that faune. There certainly was a lot of reference to him and his angels. Something is definitely not quite right about all this if Heaven is supposed to be such an amazing place. What would cause anyone to rebel and face defeat? They had to know they couldn't win any fight with an all powerful being. Why would they even consider it. Things had to be pretty bad don't you think? Also, it says Satan stole earth from God that was meant for humans. Just how does one steal something from an all powerful being? Perhaps the dysfunctional family is made in Heaven's image! Perhaps. It certainly sounds like something pretty dysfunctional happened in any case.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 16:22:50 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize. The problem in paradise was Lucifer, who later became Satan/devil because he didn't want to be a humble servant but to be Lord over ALL of ALL God's creation, even God himself/themselves.Really? Tell me something. If you were Lucifer and had a pretty high position in a perfect place, with a perfect God, do you think you would rebel, knowing full well you couldn't win and likely would be punished for even trying? The Christian God is said to be all powerful. That means there is no one that should be able to beat him. These angels should have known that yet they tried. What does that tell you about heaven? Or better yet, about the story? It's false is how I see it. Makes no sense at all. No one in their right mind would take on an all powerful being.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 16:24:33 GMT -5
In the greater picture. Paradise is a place of love immeasurable love. No sin. If lucifer can sin in a sinless environment that then god had a problem. Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up.
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Post by rational on Nov 21, 2014 16:28:44 GMT -5
In the greater picture. Paradise is a place of love immeasurable love. No sin. If lucifer can sin in a sinless environment that then god had a problem. Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up. This can also happen with imaginary numbers!
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:04:09 GMT -5
In the greater picture. Paradise is a place of love immeasurable love. No sin. If lucifer can sin in a sinless environment that then god had a problem. Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up. This was before man was created. Did the discovery of sin in the camp inspire him to create man in his image? Beings he could enjoy and have relationship with? I think so. He created a home first. Earth. Did he want those beings with him? Did he want them in paradise later after testing his work? Why were we created so differently and uniquely, individually, diversely, instead of cloned? For his pleasure? Fun? Enjoyment?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:07:09 GMT -5
Really? Tell me something. If you were Lucifer and had a pretty high position in a perfect place, with a perfect God, do you think you would rebel, knowing full well you couldn't win and likely would be punished for even trying? The Christian God is said to be all powerful. That means there is no one that should be able to beat him. These angels should have known that yet they tried. What does that tell you about heaven? Or better yet, about the story? It's false is how I see it. Makes no sense at all. No one in their right mind would take on an all powerful being. Satan overestimated his own super natural power and he fought against the Almighty God in heaven and the wars have continued on the earth. He thought he could get Jesus to join him, encouraging and preventing him from dying on Calvary's Cross. Matthew 1:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him/Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Jesus was telling Satan, "You're wanting a place of Worship, which you don't deserve! because you didn't earn for it."
When Lucifer decided to rebel. He was the first. The president. He had no knowledge of the wrath of God until then. He was made an example of. God is all powerful but remember he doesnt want that with us He wanted to enjoy his creation. Dialogue. Discourse. Communication. Friendship. He wanted us to enjoy his provision. Our planet. Have communion with us daily. As he did in the garden. The fall of man was the second rebellion. Then he is faced with how to deal with that. I dont think he knew that man was going to fall. For this reason he wanted him free to choose. In giving that freedom came risk. He was trusting man to understand his authority. Man failed and fell from grace.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:22:28 GMT -5
"Love doesnt seek itself" Is this the reason that this all happened. If the love of god was self seeking as an all powerful being he would have made sure evil didnt occur. In a perfect setting. His love was enduring. Is there a side to him that is impossibly soft towards man? Have we missed something. Could it be that. As a father is isnt controlling at all.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 19:24:01 GMT -5
Really? Tell me something. If you were Lucifer and had a pretty high position in a perfect place, with a perfect God, do you think you would rebel, knowing full well you couldn't win and likely would be punished for even trying? The Christian God is said to be all powerful. That means there is no one that should be able to beat him. These angels should have known that yet they tried. What does that tell you about heaven? Or better yet, about the story? It's false is how I see it. Makes no sense at all. No one in their right mind would take on an all powerful being. Satan overestimated his own super natural power and he fought against the Almighty God in heaven and the wars have continued on the earth. He thought he could get Jesus to join him, encouraging and preventing him from dying on Calvary's Cross. Matthew 1:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him/Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Jesus was telling Satan, "You're wanting a place of Worship, which you don't deserve! because you didn't earn for it."
Really? You think Lucifer was that dumb? Do you really think he thought he could win that fight? I say it didn't happen. Makes no sense. You still never answered my question though. Would you do something to obviously stupid as going up against a being you know you can't beat and Know you will be punished for it?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:26:48 GMT -5
Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up. This can also happen with imaginary numbers! Lol..do you see numbers in color? Ever studied the significence of numbers in scripture? I havent.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 19:27:25 GMT -5
Yes, God had a problem. Something doesn't add up. This was before man was created. Did the discovery of sin in the camp inspire him to create man in his image? Beings he could enjoy and have relationship with? I think so. He created a home first. Earth. Did he want those beings with him? Did he want them in paradise later after testing his work? Why were we created so differently and uniquely, individually, diversely, instead of cloned? For his pleasure? Fun? Enjoyment? Poor God. He created angels and they turned out less than perfect. They rebelled and said what he had given them wasn't good enough so he had to give them a slap. Then he created humans and they turned out less than perfect so he's slapping them too? Maybe he should give up on his creation career. Doesn't seem to be working all that well. Yes, that's a tad sarcastic, but it's not aimed at you my dear bubbles. It's aimed at the story and my frustration with why it is believed when it so obviously (at least to me) doesn't make sense.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 19:31:04 GMT -5
Satan overestimated his own super natural power and he fought against the Almighty God in heaven and the wars have continued on the earth. He thought he could get Jesus to join him, encouraging and preventing him from dying on Calvary's Cross. Matthew 1:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him/Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Jesus was telling Satan, "You're wanting a place of Worship, which you don't deserve! because you didn't earn for it."
When Lucifer decided to rebel. He was the first. The president. He had no knowledge of the wrath of God until then. He was made an example of. God is all powerful but remember he doesnt want that with us He wanted to enjoy his creation. Dialogue. Discourse. Communication. Friendship. He wanted us to enjoy his provision. Our planet. Have communion with us daily. As he did in the garden. The fall of man was the second rebellion. Then he is faced with how to deal with that. I dont think he knew that man was going to fall. For this reason he wanted him free to choose. In giving that freedom came risk. He was trusting man to understand his authority. Man failed and fell from grace. If we go by the Christian definition of their God though, he is all powerful and all Knowing. He had to know we would mess up if given free will. He had to have known that Lucifer and 1/3 of his angels would rebel. And, we really haven't addressed what would be so wrong with paradise that they needed a change.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 19:32:52 GMT -5
This can also happen with imaginary numbers! Lol..do you see numbers in color? Ever studied the significence of numbers in scripture? I havent. Read a book once that went through the symbolism of numbers in the Bible once. Can't remember the name though. One thing I do recall, (the book wasn't that interesting lol) was the #12 and it's symbolism being compared to the astrological chart. 12 tribes of Israel 12 apostles etc.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:35:59 GMT -5
Nate Satan had no power until the fall.He stole it in the garden. He cant be everywhere at once. He knows scripture and can quote it. He knows hes heading for the lake of fire. Hes experienced the wrath of god but will lie for his own ends. The war between light and darkness has been on since he fell. In our heaven he rules. He has dominion. The dominion that Adam and Eve were given in the garden. Bornagain christians can overcome and over throw his power using the gifts/ tools with the power of the holy spirit and the power of the name of Christ. This is where the war is.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:43:10 GMT -5
When Lucifer decided to rebel. He was the first. The president. He had no knowledge of the wrath of God until then. He was made an example of. God is all powerful but remember he doesnt want that with us He wanted to enjoy his creation. Dialogue. Discourse. Communication. Friendship. He wanted us to enjoy his provision. Our planet. Have communion with us daily. As he did in the garden. The fall of man was the second rebellion. Then he is faced with how to deal with that. I dont think he knew that man was going to fall. For this reason he wanted him free to choose. In giving that freedom came risk. He was trusting man to understand his authority. Man failed and fell from grace. If we go by the Christian definition of their God though, he is all powerful and all Knowing. He had to know we would mess up if given free will. He had to have known that Lucifer and 1/3 of his angels would rebel. And, we really haven't addressed what would be so wrong with paradise that they needed a change. Yes but wait. If he hadnt created before he wouldnt know the results. I dont understand your last sentence. There isnt anything wrong in paradise. He got rid of the problem. I just realised some thing. He wants to feel loved back. Thats why he requires worship. Angels were created for that purpose.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 19:46:21 GMT -5
Satan overestimated his own super natural power and he fought against the Almighty God in heaven and the wars have continued on the earth. He thought he could get Jesus to join him, encouraging and preventing him from dying on Calvary's Cross. Matthew 1:8-9 Again, the devil taketh him/Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, " Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
Jesus was telling Satan, "You're wanting a place of Worship, which you don't deserve! because you didn't earn for it."
Really? You think Lucifer was that dumb? Do you really think he thought he could win that fight? I say it didn't happen. Makes no sense. You still never answered my question though. Would you do something to obviously stupid as going up against a being you know you can't beat and Know you will be punished for it? Pride can become so inflated reason flies out the door.
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