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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 9:34:33 GMT -5
THE PURGE - THE COVER-UP - HIDING Wm IRVINE Many have thought that the coverup began in 1931 at West Hanney, England Overseers meeting to settle the strained relations between George Walker and Jack Carroll, co-overseers of the USA and Canada. This was due to the following quote line from the Summary Statement of the West Hanney Meeting: "It was unanimously agreed by all present that the past should be buried and that in the future, all would use their influence to discourage anything that would disturb the peace in God's family, adhering to the teaching and example of Jesus. It was further agreed that should any violation or supposed violation occur, that no decision should be arrived at or circulated until the matter had been placed before a number of brethren from various countries." My opinion has been that this ambiguous statement did not refer to burying the name of Wm Irvine, but that Walker & Carroll were burying their past disagreements. Also the following excerpts show hiding Wm Irvine along with purging the F&Ws began much earlier than that. It began when Irvine separated from the main group in 1914-1919. There were more than 100 workers and 100 saints who were put out of the church, according to Wm Irvine. His name became an anathama--and care was taken not to even mention it. The workers went on a purging campaign, and the workers and saints who were loyal to Irvine were excommunicated or left on their own. Irvine wrote: "It would take volumes to tell of all the envy, the malice, jealousy, revolt, rebellion, violence, & treachery that has been wrought not only toward me but 100's of other saints & workers who have become the victims of the wolves in sheeps clothing, and you have only to get up against them to prove it, their wool never was whiter, their teeth never was sharper. They have become expert at killing, stoning, robbing, stealing, shutting out & keeping out. Stirring others up to hatred in the name of the saving The Testimony, and yet unless you become a victim in some way, you would never suspect by their position or their words, unless you can see & taste their works. They sit and say alright, but their works are exactly what the Pharisees of Jesus time was. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, John all bear witness to the same thing, in the church of their day." (Jan 29, 1921 Letter to Laughlin) For those who went to Irvine’s defense or asked the workers questions, the results were sometimes very costly. Some found themselves cast out also. Irvine wrote to Willie Abercrombie, who is listed on the 1905 Worker list: “There were over 100 workers rejected and as many hundred saints these past 7 years, and no two alike, and yet the treatment has been the same: unmerciful judging of their brethren, casting and shutting them out of fellowship. For anyone to have my name in honor, or in grateful memory, or to plead my cause, means to be cast out; and nothing pleases them better than when someone can speak more evil of the man to whom they owe all they have." (March 2, 1921 Letter to Willie Abercrombie) Irvine wrote Ed Cooney: “The men who would fail in mercy and become the wicked accusers of the hundreds in The Testimony, whom they have treated violently and put out, would have rejected all those whom we now know to have been true servants of God” (February 23, 1921 Letter to Cooney) “I count myself happy in finding a few hundred who have suffered for being true to my name, and being rejected and cast out for having fellowship with me in any sense…No man can mention my name lovingly in the Testimony and not suffer for it; try it and see for yourself. Happy will you be if you find yourself despised and rejected, rebuked and chastened, outside the Camp for doing it. If you want to take the hatred of the haters, mention my name and stand for mercy of God to me and others like me, and see what you get, either in a church meeting or in a convention." (February 23, 1921 Letter to Cooney) Some workers who left the Alpha Days and followed Wm's Omega Message were: "W. Edwards, Minnie Skerritt, and Bob Skerritt and Joe Kerr were workers in Alpha days who gave it up..." (April 24, 1945 Letter to Pages) Also, Walter Noble, Minnie Gerow, Minnie Skeritt, Percy Abbott. George Linn. Bob Lauchlin, and James Gordon, Lizzie Gordon, of Denver after being a 2x2 worker for 22 years, Willie Edwards wife Rose; and also Ritzmans who owned the Filmore, CA convention grounds. During the time that Wm. Irvine was considered to be the “Lord's Anointed," the workers proudly pointed to him as being their spiritual father. But after Irvine’s fall, this changed and some of the workers no longer wanted to admit to the role he had filled in the group’s creation, and started not speaking his name. The decision to conceal Irvine's role in their group was made AFTER he was put out, rather than before. “Since the parting of our ways---your desire to forget and dishonour my name and treat me as dead.” Workers asked recipients of Irvine’s letters to burn them. Irvine wrote, “To burn my letters is the highest compliment they could pay me. Some have been foolhardy enough to openly blaspheme against the Holy Ghost and say that me and my words are warning are of the Devil.” (April 1, 1923 Letter to Wilson? & John?) Irvine wrote: "The attitude taken toward my name, making it the cause for the rejection of others, is rather a compliment than anything else…Percy Abbot tells of Wm. Abercrombie (worker) warning him of hell even to mention my name." (March 1, 1921 to Edwards) George Walker was no exception. Rather than admit he professed through Wm. Irvine, it was rumored that George Walker "...would not admit to professing through anyone, but remarked privately to another worker that he found salvation through a revelation experienced with a ‘farmer in a field.' " On the other hand, both Patricia Roberts and Goodhand Pattison stated that George Walker professed through William Irvine in April, 1898 (Accounts of the Early Days by G. Pattison; Life & Ministry of Edward Cooney, p. 21). Cooney wrote: "I travelled for my father's business and preached...as occasion offered...and whilst doing so, met William Irvine, through whom George Walker, Jack Carroll, William Carroll, Willie Gill and a number of the present leaders professed, including James Jardine." (Ed Cooney's Letter to Alice Flett) George Walker told Willie Edwards how he would phase out Wm. Irvine: "They were so delighted to think he [William Irvine] was gone, so they might get the Vineyard. How well I remember G. W. [George Walker] telling me of their plans. Everything was going to be different. They would not even sing the old songs. Nothing that would bring back old memories, and he says 'in two years, his name [the name of Wm. Irvine] will be forgotten and new people will never know that such a man lived.'” (Willie Edwards Letter to Fountains 10/1/36) Irvine also wrote: "... how hard the Testimony have tried to blot it out [Wm. Irvine's name], they said, 'Don't even mention his name, and we will do away with the old songs, etc., so there will be nothing to bring his name into remembrance.'" (May 4, 1939 Letter by Minnie Skerritt to Lovell Baker) What did George Walker mean by "They would not even sing the old songs"? A check shows that they didn't reprint the hymnbook and leave out certain hymns. The first music edition of Hymns Old & New was printed in 1913-14. Irvine was disfellowshipped in April or September, 1914. The hymnbook was printed again in 1922; however, the only difference was the addition of 27 hymns--no hymns were left out. A hymnal was printed in Australia in 1913 or 1918 (date not legible). It would seem that Geo Walker's prediction didn't come to pass. Cooney knew about and disapproved of the workers not including Wm. Irvine in their group's history. He wrote: “An attempt has been made to give an account of God's dealings with us, ignoring William Irvine. This is not honest. William Irvine was born again when a Presbyterian, through hearing John McNeill preach the gospel in Motherwell Town Hall, and I have in my possession a letter from him to me, claiming this to be so, written from Jerusalem before he died. He afterwards joined the Faith Mission denomination and was Pilgrim Irvine when I first met him in Borrisokane, Co. Tipperary, Eire.” (Edward Cooney’s Testimony from Selected Letters Hymns and Poems of Edward Cooney 1867-1960, edited by Patricia Roberts, pp. 43-46). Ron Campbell wrote: "I once questioned the South Australian overseer William Hughes about the leaders' reasons for concealing the truth of the internal divisions between senior workers and overseers when, in actuality, young men and women give their lives and all to this cause, honestly believing that all serve and none rule. When asked why young workers were not told the truth his reply was, "If we did, none would go!" Numerous honest young workers who have spoken against the perversions of doctrine and injustice of the sect have been victimized and gradually hounded out of the religion." (The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, p. 90).
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 10:23:45 GMT -5
I have found no documents verifying Irvine began teaching his Omega Message before 1918, which is mentioned in Jack Carroll's April 16, 1919 Letter Warning Against Wm. Irvine's New Doctrine.
Have you, Nathan?
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 12:09:54 GMT -5
Yes Irvine COULD have started preaching Omega before 1914, but I don't think that was the reason they asked him to step down. After the document I retrieved earlier this year from Ireland, I now believe the reason Irvine was demoted was due to a sexual scandal. My reasons for believing this are given in this TMB thread: professing.proboards.com/post/611238/threadIn 1911-13 the workers and some convention ground owners were plagued by Mr. Wilson in England who spent countless money and time to discredit them. He had 3-4 children go in the work and he was outraged about it. Wherever he could track down the workers, he contacted newspapers and printed lies & ugly stuff about the workers being involved in white slave traffic (of sister workers) and also had hate literature distributed around town, posters put in business/store windows, etc. Sometimes the workers were run out of town and there were even riots. Wilson had this propaganda literature distributed against them all over England and Ireland! See photos of this ugly literature here: TTT Photo Gallery.It was a VERY rough few years for the workers in the UK & Ireland especially. The news even went to Canada. The F&Ws filed 8 court cases against Mr. Wilson and a newspaper named "The People" for libel. See: List of court cases on TTTThey asked every sister worker who had left the UK & Ireland up til that time write testimonial letters to be used in court, testifying they were not mistreated, providing references, etc. I personally read their handwritten letters and have certified copies of them. I posted several of these letters on TTT: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/sisterworkers1913.php The workers went to great lengths to clear the name of the workers and their church of this sexual scandal over several years. White slave traffic was thought to make a lot of money. The earlier expenditures I posted on TMB of the conventions, etc. were made to show where the workers money came and went--and was evidence for these court cases. THEN the next year, 1914, after all this finally settled down, after much loss of reputation, pain, money, work, rejections, along comes Irvine involved in a sexual scandal.....can you see why they would get rid of him??? Why Cooney would be livid when he found out? Cooney had filed two of the court cases himself!
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 12:39:45 GMT -5
Nate All of the above took place AFTER he was demoted in 1914, when the sexual sin scandal was discovered by Ed Cooney while he was with WmI in New Zealand.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 13:20:44 GMT -5
Are you interpreting the above quote to be that one of Jack's sisters had sexual relations with Irvine?
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 17:37:27 GMT -5
It was in November of 1918, when Wm. Irvine began to understand the Book of Revelation in a different light. He wrote:
"Revelation only began to open up in 1918 when the War finished." (November 26, 1945 Letter to Madeline Dunbar)
"In 1918, I began to see some of what was in Revelation and which has slowly opened as the years passed and fulfillment confirms the reading of Revelation." (June 18, 1945 Letter to Skerritts)
"I did not know we were in the days of Judgment till 4 months ago. The Lord opened up Revelation to me. It’s a Program for the End of the Age—covers 12 years, from the beginning of the war." (March 31, 1919 Letter to Edwards)
“…which helps to bring me back to the weeks before Armistice, when He opened Revelation to me" (February 26, 1929 Letter to Edwards) Armistice Day was November 11, 1918.
“It was all new and strange to me to find these things open up to my understanding, and ability to read what has long been hidden till the time of the end, and not till the end of the last war did I get any vision or understanding of Revelation and the whole truth for the Latter Days, tho I had looked for and listened to every man who had anything to say on the matter. ” (November 1, 1929 Letter to Wm. Potts)
“Revelation only began to open up in 1918 when the War finished, and since then is very easy and simple so that any ordinary person can give it to any whom they meet, good or bad. All can hear it even if they are not willing to obey by giving it to others.” (November 26, 1945 Letter to Dunbars)
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 17:51:14 GMT -5
His preaching was strange from the start, that was one of the reasons they others put him out. Also, he was involved with women while in meetings.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 18:02:32 GMT -5
They did a good job of getting rid of W. Irvine pretty early on. My Grandfather professed in around 1917 in Canada and there never was any mention of W. Irvine in the whole time I knew him. My parents didn't know about him and they professed in the 1920's. The story of back to the beginning must already have been in place to make sure Irvine and his starting of the group would be dead and buried. I know for sure that they believed it went back to the shores of Galilee and knew nothing about the Faith mission etc or Irvine. They stated this belief over and over. Maybe it was easier to hide the beginnings from Canadians? Maybe there were fewer of them then in the States so it was easier to hide. However, I find it interesting that they tried to warn people in both Canada and the States to not sell their homes etc. in the letter Jack Carroll sent out in 1919. I know that my grandfather knew Jack Carroll because I have an old book that has the Bible studies for the year in it and it was from Jack Carroll. It was among my grandmothers stuff along with letters etc. So I wonder if my family somehow didn't get the 'memo' regarding Irvine though that seems odd to me. They definitely had contact with Jack Carroll and had workers living on their ranch a lot of the time. I know my father spoke of them living with the family over the years and how they helped with chores on the farm etc.
It is also pretty obvious from that latest letter you just posted that Irvine was excommunicated and a lot of others were too. The purge must have been a pretty traumatic event for those who went through it. Makes you wonder if it was anything Irvine did as much as they wanted to hide the beginnings and he was possibly against it because he was the founder? There are lots of allegations against him by the workers, but do we actually have anything concrete that confirms he did anything wrong? Interesting in any case.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2014 21:08:26 GMT -5
What happened to WI own Omega followers when his prophesied about the world did NOT end in 1917? I wonder what some of his explanation were when the world did not come to an end and the period of grace is still going forth today?
So, it seems most of his new/strange Omega revelation and teachings came after he left the ministry 1914 and fellowship 1919.
Where did Irvine say the world was going to end in 1917. I've not found any place in his letters where he gave a particular date. He was expecting it to end at any moment from 1918 on, however. His later "revelations" began in 1918, as shown in the quotes above.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 25, 2014 13:36:16 GMT -5
They did a good job of getting rid of W. Irvine pretty early on. My Grandfather professed in around 1917 in Canada and there never was any mention of W. Irvine in the whole time I knew him. My parents didn't know about him and they professed in the 1920's. The story of back to the beginning must already have been in place to make sure Irvine and his starting of the group would be dead and buried. I know for sure that they believed it went back to the shores of Galilee and knew nothing about the Faith mission etc or Irvine. They stated this belief over and over. Maybe it was easier to hide the beginnings from Canadians? Maybe there were fewer of them then in the States so it was easier to hide. However, I find it interesting that they tried to warn people in both Canada and the States to not sell their homes etc. in the letter Jack Carroll sent out in 1919. I know that my grandfather knew Jack Carroll because I have an old book that has the Bible studies for the year in it and it was from Jack Carroll. It was among my grandmothers stuff along with letters etc. So I wonder if my family somehow didn't get the 'memo' regarding Irvine though that seems odd to me. They definitely had contact with Jack Carroll and had workers living on their ranch a lot of the time. I know my father spoke of them living with the family over the years and how they helped with chores on the farm etc. It is also pretty obvious from that latest letter you just posted that Irvine was excommunicated and a lot of others were too. The purge must have been a pretty traumatic event for those who went through it. Makes you wonder if it was anything Irvine did as much as they wanted to hide the beginnings and he was possibly against it because he was the founder? There are lots of allegations against him by the workers, but do we actually have anything concrete that confirms he did anything wrong? Interesting in any case. I think the morality of WI and other workers did come into the dispersion of many....WI did write about a sister who "loved me overmuch"! I believe it is in one of the letters Cherie has posted recently.
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Post by snow on Oct 25, 2014 14:28:59 GMT -5
They did a good job of getting rid of W. Irvine pretty early on. My Grandfather professed in around 1917 in Canada and there never was any mention of W. Irvine in the whole time I knew him. My parents didn't know about him and they professed in the 1920's. The story of back to the beginning must already have been in place to make sure Irvine and his starting of the group would be dead and buried. I know for sure that they believed it went back to the shores of Galilee and knew nothing about the Faith mission etc or Irvine. They stated this belief over and over. Maybe it was easier to hide the beginnings from Canadians? Maybe there were fewer of them then in the States so it was easier to hide. However, I find it interesting that they tried to warn people in both Canada and the States to not sell their homes etc. in the letter Jack Carroll sent out in 1919. I know that my grandfather knew Jack Carroll because I have an old book that has the Bible studies for the year in it and it was from Jack Carroll. It was among my grandmothers stuff along with letters etc. So I wonder if my family somehow didn't get the 'memo' regarding Irvine though that seems odd to me. They definitely had contact with Jack Carroll and had workers living on their ranch a lot of the time. I know my father spoke of them living with the family over the years and how they helped with chores on the farm etc. It is also pretty obvious from that latest letter you just posted that Irvine was excommunicated and a lot of others were too. The purge must have been a pretty traumatic event for those who went through it. Makes you wonder if it was anything Irvine did as much as they wanted to hide the beginnings and he was possibly against it because he was the founder? There are lots of allegations against him by the workers, but do we actually have anything concrete that confirms he did anything wrong? Interesting in any case. I think the morality of WI and other workers did come into the dispersion of many....WI did write about a sister who "loved me overmuch"! I believe it is in one of the letters Cherie has posted recently. Yes it seems to have definitely played a role in his excommunication. But excommunication seems to me to be an extreme measure. Taken out of the work seems like a more balanced response to the situation. Then if he left the group of his own free will, that would be his choice and others could have followed him. Instead they played judge and jury about who could be part of the group.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 25, 2014 15:15:10 GMT -5
They did a good job of getting rid of W. Irvine pretty early on. My Grandfather professed in around 1917 in Canada and there never was any mention of W. Irvine in the whole time I knew him. My parents didn't know about him and they professed in the 1920's. The story of back to the beginning must already have been in place to make sure Irvine and his starting of the group would be dead and buried. I know for sure that they believed it went back to the shores of Galilee and knew nothing about the Faith mission etc or Irvine. They stated this belief over and over. Maybe it was easier to hide the beginnings from Canadians? Maybe there were fewer of them then in the States so it was easier to hide. However, I find it interesting that they tried to warn people in both Canada and the States to not sell their homes etc. in the letter Jack Carroll sent out in 1919. I know that my grandfather knew Jack Carroll because I have an old book that has the Bible studies for the year in it and it was from Jack Carroll. It was among my grandmothers stuff along with letters etc. So I wonder if my family somehow didn't get the 'memo' regarding Irvine though that seems odd to me. They definitely had contact with Jack Carroll and had workers living on their ranch a lot of the time. I know my father spoke of them living with the family over the years and how they helped with chores on the farm etc. It is also pretty obvious from that latest letter you just posted that Irvine was excommunicated and a lot of others were too. The purge must have been a pretty traumatic event for those who went through it. Makes you wonder if it was anything Irvine did as much as they wanted to hide the beginnings and he was possibly against it because he was the founder? There are lots of allegations against him by the workers, but do we actually have anything concrete that confirms he did anything wrong? Interesting in any case. I never hear Wm. Irvine mentioned by my parents, however I heard them talk about Ed. Cooney.
Cherie's post was very interesting about Wm. Irvine ideas on Book of Revelation .
I think those kinds of ideas of Irvine's played heavily into why the others felt that Irvine needed to begotten rid of .
Probably more so than any sexual episodes. -
I think that they could see his egotistical delusions were really getting out of hand and he was getting dangerous to the movement.
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Post by snow on Oct 25, 2014 15:28:00 GMT -5
They did a good job of getting rid of W. Irvine pretty early on. My Grandfather professed in around 1917 in Canada and there never was any mention of W. Irvine in the whole time I knew him. My parents didn't know about him and they professed in the 1920's. The story of back to the beginning must already have been in place to make sure Irvine and his starting of the group would be dead and buried. I know for sure that they believed it went back to the shores of Galilee and knew nothing about the Faith mission etc or Irvine. They stated this belief over and over. Maybe it was easier to hide the beginnings from Canadians? Maybe there were fewer of them then in the States so it was easier to hide. However, I find it interesting that they tried to warn people in both Canada and the States to not sell their homes etc. in the letter Jack Carroll sent out in 1919. I know that my grandfather knew Jack Carroll because I have an old book that has the Bible studies for the year in it and it was from Jack Carroll. It was among my grandmothers stuff along with letters etc. So I wonder if my family somehow didn't get the 'memo' regarding Irvine though that seems odd to me. They definitely had contact with Jack Carroll and had workers living on their ranch a lot of the time. I know my father spoke of them living with the family over the years and how they helped with chores on the farm etc. It is also pretty obvious from that latest letter you just posted that Irvine was excommunicated and a lot of others were too. The purge must have been a pretty traumatic event for those who went through it. Makes you wonder if it was anything Irvine did as much as they wanted to hide the beginnings and he was possibly against it because he was the founder? There are lots of allegations against him by the workers, but do we actually have anything concrete that confirms he did anything wrong? Interesting in any case. I never hear Wm. Irvine mentioned by my parents, however I heard them talk about Ed. Cooney.
Cherie's post was very interesting about Wm. Irvine ideas on Book of Revelation .
I think those kinds of ideas of Irvine's played heavily into why the others felt that Irvine needed to begotten rid of .
Probably more so than any sexual episodes. -
I think that they could see his egotistical delusions were really getting out of hand and he was getting dangerous to the movement.
Possibly. I had heard once that he was friends with the Jehovah Witness leader at the time that was claiming the end times so maybe he got some of his ideas from him too. He comes across as an egotistical guy who would not take kindly to having 'his' church run by anyone other than him. No one can deny he started the church after reading letters he has written. The 'Truth' definitely was started by W. Irvine. He sounded rather delusional thinking he was some kind of prophet or Messiah who was going to lead everyone into the end times. They likely did have to get him out of the lime light. Excommunication seems a bit harsh, but kicking him out of the work probably was a good move on their part.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 25, 2014 15:50:24 GMT -5
I never hear Wm. Irvine mentioned by my parents, however I heard them talk about Ed. Cooney.
Cherie's post was very interesting about Wm. Irvine ideas on Book of Revelation .
I think those kinds of ideas of Irvine's played heavily into why the others felt that Irvine needed to begotten rid of .
Probably more so than any sexual episodes. -
I think that they could see his egotistical delusions were really getting out of hand and he was getting dangerous to the movement.
Possibly. I had heard once that he was friends with the Jehovah Witness leader at the time that was claiming the end times so maybe he got some of his ideas from him too. He comes across as an egotistical guy who would not take kindly to having 'his' church run by anyone other than him. No one can deny he started the church after reading letters he has written. The 'Truth' definitely was started by W. Irvine. He sounded rather delusional thinking he was some kind of prophet or Messiah who was going to lead everyone into the end times. They likely did have to get him out of the lime light. Excommunication seems a bit harsh, but kicking him out of the work probably was a good move on their part.
Yes. Then when they did get him out, how could they explain to people why the movement was THE TRUTH & the only WAY but they had to excommunicate the founder!
It was a sticky situation.
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Post by snow on Oct 25, 2014 17:35:36 GMT -5
Possibly. I had heard once that he was friends with the Jehovah Witness leader at the time that was claiming the end times so maybe he got some of his ideas from him too. He comes across as an egotistical guy who would not take kindly to having 'his' church run by anyone other than him. No one can deny he started the church after reading letters he has written. The 'Truth' definitely was started by W. Irvine. He sounded rather delusional thinking he was some kind of prophet or Messiah who was going to lead everyone into the end times. They likely did have to get him out of the lime light. Excommunication seems a bit harsh, but kicking him out of the work probably was a good move on their part.
Yes. Then when they did get him out, how could they explain to people why the movement was THE TRUTH & the only WAY but they had to excommunicate the founder!
It was a sticky situation.
It really must have been a challenge. I wish people had seen through it all and it had failed. Then my parents wouldn't have wasted their lives in it. I can't understand what my grandfather saw in them (the workers). Possibly because they rolled up their sleeves and worked the ranch with him and his sons? They became friends and he just decided to fall in with their religious ideas too? Who knows. I know for my maternal grandmother it was a hard time in her life when the workers hit town. She and my mother were the only two in that family that ever professed. In my dad's family it was my grandfather, step grandmother, my dad and an aunt. So not many in either family fell for it. I just happened to be in the family of the two that did profess.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 14, 2014 12:52:03 GMT -5
I think the morality of WI and other workers did come into the dispersion of many....WI did write about a sister who "loved me overmuch"! I believe it is in one of the letters Cherie has posted recently. Yes it seems to have definitely played a role in his excommunication. But excommunication seems to me to be an extreme measure. Taken out of the work seems like a more balanced response to the situation. Then if he left the group of his own free will, that would be his choice and others could have followed him. Instead they played judge and jury about who could be part of the group. I had read in some of the papers on Cherie's sight, I believe it was, that as WI was wanting to go to Jerusalem as he thought himself to be one of the 2 witnesses it speaks of in Revelations that the workers manipulated his "excommunication" with that thought in mind...putting it that they were allowing him to go where his heart desired! But of course, the truth always comes out, and it wasn't long until WI realized that he actually had been booted out of the religion he'd founded! I think he kind of felt that perhaps that was a wrong thing to do and it wouldn't hold water in the end....so I wonder how right he may have been due to the fact he had some very stalwart followers clear to his death. And of course, any of the workers or friends that expressed any loyality toward WI got the boot also.......I think the workers learned early on how to manipulate people into doing what the workers really wanted them to do, but the people felt like perhaps the workers were giving them what they really wanted. I know of one ex-worker who stil is quite the manipulator into getting what they want but in the long run they tell people that whoever they'd had to approach with their wants had suggested that they do what the person wanted to do and so in order to obey the workers, they did what the workers suggested! Sheesh!
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2014 13:43:14 GMT -5
Yes it seems to have definitely played a role in his excommunication. But excommunication seems to me to be an extreme measure. Taken out of the work seems like a more balanced response to the situation. Then if he left the group of his own free will, that would be his choice and others could have followed him. Instead they played judge and jury about who could be part of the group. I had read in some of the papers on Cherie's sight, I believe it was, that as WI was wanting to go to Jerusalem as he thought himself to be one of the 2 witnesses it speaks of in Revelations that the workers manipulated his "excommunication" with that thought in mind...putting it that they were allowing him to go where his heart desired! But of course, the truth always comes out, and it wasn't long until WI realized that he actually had been booted out of the religion he'd founded! I think he kind of felt that perhaps that was a wrong thing to do and it wouldn't hold water in the end....so I wonder how right he may have been due to the fact he had some very stalwart followers clear to his death. And of course, any of the workers or friends that expressed any loyality toward WI got the boot also.......I think the workers learned early on how to manipulate people into doing what the workers really wanted them to do, but the people felt like perhaps the workers were giving them what they really wanted. I know of one ex-worker who stil is quite the manipulator into getting what they want but in the long run they tell people that whoever they'd had to approach with their wants had suggested that they do what the person wanted to do and so in order to obey the workers, they did what the workers suggested! Sheesh! You mention something there str that I have also noticed. The 2x2 faith seems to teach the skills of manipulation and they are used with skill and finesse. Guilt and shame cards got played all the time when I quit professing. How could I do this to my parents, how ungrateful, well you know the list. I noticed that many ex's still use this to manipulate because it is a learned way of getting people to pay attention. My parents had the skill honed as did a professing aunt. I used it, I know I did. I still catch myself doing it and having to stop. Maybe it's a religious thing and not just 2x2, but that is the religion I am the most familiar with and they definitely practice manipulation.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 14, 2014 20:40:15 GMT -5
What they did was nothing new. It was a practice so long in use that there is a Latin term for it: “Damnatio Memoriae” meaning "damnation of memory". It refers to a custom dating back to antiquity - the attempted removal of a famous person from the historical record for reasons of dishonour. Roman emperors used to order the destruction or removal of portraits or statues of disgraced members of their family. The Romans called the forbidding of mentioning a person and purging and destruction of any records that they existed, "damnatio memoriae" and employed it on many occasions. It was one of their harshest judgments. It is also interesting is that it seldom worked in the long run, once people began to notice the gaps left behind and started asking questions again after the enforcement died down. There is a common photo that included Wm Irvine when originally taken--there are some copies of it where he is cut off. See TTT Photo Gallery photo of Carrolls, Jamiesons with and without Irvine
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Post by Mary on Nov 14, 2014 21:24:18 GMT -5
I wonder where the author got the information that he spent time with Pentecostals and received the gift of tongues etc? Pentecostals do not say they are going to die and rise up again after 2 days etc. So to say he got that from the Pentecostals is wrong. Irvine was deluded from when he first started going out on his own.
He writes: Irvine was in America for much of the war years, and while spending time with Pentecostal people in Los Angeles he received the gift of tongues and of interpreting tongues. He returned to his own folk of Kilsyth around September 1919, and travelled to Palestine in November that year.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 20:15:36 GMT -5
Has there EVER been a thread which kept to the topic?
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 17, 2014 20:28:34 GMT -5
Has there EVER been a thread which kept to the topic? Sure - when the original poster requests that the off-topic posts be removed from their thread... I've made such requests several times, and the admin & mods have kindly granted my request and have moved the off-topic posts to a new thread of their own. This happened several times on the Vietnam thread. Stand by...!
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 18, 2014 2:58:06 GMT -5
Start a new thread when you change topics. Always a good idea......
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 18, 2014 3:13:04 GMT -5
Has there EVER been a thread which kept to the topic? Sure - when the original poster requests that the off-topic posts be removed from their thread... I've made such requests several times, and the admin & mods have kindly granted my request and have moved the off-topic posts to a new thread of their own. This happened several times on the Vietnam thread. Stand by...! For the interesting discussion about Irvine, the Pentecostals, and speaking in tongues, there is another thread for that discussion. professing.proboards.com/thread/22533/
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Post by faune on Nov 19, 2014 14:16:03 GMT -5
This morning I enjoyed reading an old letter written by Irvine while in Palestine after the war. Here's an excerpt from the closing of William Irvine’s Letter to the Dunbars (Page 4) from Jerusalem, dated December 4, 1922, relating to his prediction that he would be returning to the fellowship with an Iron Rod before long. Just another prediction of Irvine's that never came to fruition, it seems? “It was God and I from first to last ~ and all we have seen since has only been like most others going because they were provided for, and a soft imitation of the early days. I was as the main spring and the binder together which was the real strength of the Testimony, and when I had finished the house ~ it was to find myself out and with God and the house in possession of thieves and Robbers ~ as it was in Jesus day. Never mind I’ll overturn the money changers tables and drive out the thieves and Robbers, more real and thorough than they ever dream, and I’ll not make a whip of small cords – but do it with an Iron Rod.”
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 22:21:04 GMT -5
"Living Witness doctrine" ? Never heard of it.
Heard of your "Trinity doctrine" and your "Co-substantiation doctine" and your "transubstantiation doctrine" but not "Living Witness." Are you saying we believe in a "Living Witness" or are you saying we have been suckered into "doctrines."
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 19, 2014 22:43:06 GMT -5
"Living Witness doctrine" ? Never heard of it. Heard of your "Trinity doctrine" and your "Co-substantiation doctine" and your "transubstantiation doctrine" but not "Living Witness." Are you saying we believe in a "Living Witness" or are you saying we have been suckered into "doctrines." Read a detailed explanation of the Living Witness Doctrine here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 5:05:01 GMT -5
Quote from Living Witness Doctrine, quote from TTT, "Joe Kerr is generally recognized as being the one who initially proposed to Wm Irvine that Drummond's theory of “Biogenesis” was applicable to Irvine's ministry. Joe’s explanation of the LWD is found in his letter dated January 28, 1956. The Secret Sect states, "Alfred Magowan, many years later, reminded Cooney that Joe applied the natural law of Biogenesis, as discussed in "Natural Law in the Spiritual World," to the spiritual relationship of those in their fellowship." (The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, Pg 18) Ed Cooney wrote: "William had been partially persuaded by Joe Kerr to accept the heresy that no one could be born again without meeting a Living Witness. Others held that that witness must be a sent preacher who had heard William or some preacher who had heard him.” (From Edward Cooney's Testimony, The Secret Sect by Doug & Helen Parker, pp. 115-116)"
I don't know any theory of biogenesis - don't know any workers who do, either. I don't know any "natural law of the spiritual world" - don't know any workers who do, either. I believe anyone can be genuinely "born again" without meeting anyone genuinely "born again." So too most workers I know.
What we DO believe is that if you wish to join our church you must be baptised into it. End of story. No daft theories.
nb Cooney would be right at home with you guys on the TMB. He unsettled our folks with his manner.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 8:49:26 GMT -5
Quote - "The NT is clear that Christians are baptised into Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3-5), not into a particular church or fellowship. The belief that you espoused is absolutely correct as far as the 2x2's are concerned, but completely wrong as far as the Bible is concerned."
We reserve the right, LIKE MANY CHURCHES, to have people baptized into our church, regardless of what baptism they might already have experienced. I myself, personally, DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THE JESUS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, let alone the bizarre RCC doctrines already mentioned, ie Trinity; Co-substantiation, Tran- substantiation, Mary Queen of Heaven etc.. So why would we recognize a RCC baptism?
And allegations from former members (always former members, not current ones) that we have hidden doctrines of "living witness" and "biogenesis" and "natural spiritual law" are just lame attempts (fibs actually) to portray us as being no different than RCC's (and others) when it comes to doctrines of man.
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